Author Topic: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)  (Read 34776 times)

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Offline chuckt

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2008, 02:05:28 PM »
Quote
[ As concerns Cain, there were Kenites who attached themselves to Judah. They became jews. Kenite means sons of Cain...Research it,

I HAVE RESEARCHED IT!!!

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Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2008, 07:15:28 PM »
 Did you use a Strongs  for reference? If you did then you know it is a fact.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2008, 07:35:15 PM »
"Cain"
H7014
קין
qayin
kah'-yin
The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s).



"Kenite"
H7017
קיני    קיני
qêynîy  qîynîy
kay-nee', kee-nee'
Patronymic from H7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin: - Kenite.



12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

 17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

 18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

 19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

 20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

 21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgacrapes, and the Jebusites.



--Genesis 15

Offline chuckt

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #153 on: May 08, 2008, 07:47:54 PM »
Did you use a Strongs  for reference? If you did then you know it is a fact.


dosent matter, you refuse to address the points i made!

god said to CAIN:

Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


and you refuse to understand this text>

1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


men are not evil because of bloodline.


take care
chuckt
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Offline CHB

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #154 on: May 08, 2008, 09:08:31 PM »
Quote from: PeaceTroll
The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels

Then how do you explain these verses?

(Col. 1:16) For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED, THAT ARE IN HEAVEN, AND THAT ARE IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM.

(Malachi 2:10) Have we not ALL ONE FATHER? hath not one God created us?

(Isaiah 40:26-28)  Verse 28, "The Creator of the ends of the earth".

(Eccl. 11:5) Bottom of verse. so thou knowest not the works of God WHO MAKETH ALL.

CHB


Offline reFORMer

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #155 on: May 08, 2008, 09:48:08 PM »
Re: reply #108:

These Cainites, Serpents Seed Company, Tares, Children of the Devil must be proven to be

not some of "the All,"
not of "all the world,"
not to have "flesh" or be some of the "all flesh,"
to not be something of "all things,"
nothing of "all things (that) were made by [God,] and without Him was nothing made that was made,"
not anything of "all creation,"
not one of "every creature,"
never alive along with "every living thing,"
not "enemies"

in order for them NOT to be among "the saved."

You have attempted unsuccessfully to redefine with a a narrow unbiblical definition just one word, the "world."  But,
"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . "
"The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14)
Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)
Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
Jesus "did not come to judge the world but to save the WORLD." (John 12:47)

What about the rest?
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

bobf

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #156 on: May 08, 2008, 10:11:48 PM »
Then how do you explain these verses?

Good point.  And these too!

John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.




« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 10:27:51 PM by bobf »

Offline willieH

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #157 on: May 08, 2008, 10:58:49 PM »
willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:


 Jesus Christ will save all of His creation. Adam, for Jesus  is the beginning of the creeation of God, and He is not ashamed of all that belongs to Him. The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels.

I have given you many pearls, and you do not look at them with any effort to reserch them at all.
 The sons of Adam perish in this world, from lack of knowledge, following the wisdom of carnal men. These men[so called] are not of God, and will not go to God. God forgave the world, wheat and tares, so He may seperate them in the harvest, the millineum.
 You are willingly ignorant of the fact that He is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
There is an end to this trial, as there is an end to all things earthly, including this present world. What is happening is rational and is hidden in parable form.
 YOU do have a world full of enemies who are at emnity with God, and will not escape destruction. They may speak great swelling words, and say things that seem He is not what He is. Empty words from the enemy of your spirit. His day is almost over, and he has decieved the whole world except for the saints and elect, as it is written, if it were possible.
 We, you, and I, now at this point and time. The end is near.

Revelation 7:2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
.

 Almost done.


No dusty... NOT "almost done" ...you were done before you started and in this discussion, have not bothered to answer ANYONE...  Then you require EVERYONE to be about answering YOU! :rolleye:

This has been your way ever since I have first encountered you.  Thinking yourself privy to TRUTH, while everyone else "willingly ignores"...  :thumbdown:

Believe what you shall dusty... for those beliefs YOU hold as an individual, have been previously declared, and noted that you would do so from the beginning, ...as have ALL other human and creation destinies been so earmarked by our LOVING Creator! (Is 46:10-11 / Eph 1:9-11)

Because YOU BELIEVE what YOU BELIEVE, does not make it TRUTH dusty...  :dontknow:  It only makes it WHAT YOU BELIEVE...   :dontknow:  NOTHING more...

The MAIN thing that continuosly escapes your viewpoint is REASON... There is NO REASON for GOD to create things to DESTROY them... such an agenda displays NO PURPOSE... rather, indicates a WASTE of CREATIVE involvement... much as do these:

One does not build a WOOD CABINET for the purpose of BURNING it... nor does one write a PIECE of MUSIC for the purpose of SHREDDING it... nor does one design and manufacture a CAR, purposing to CRUSH it...  These few examples show that such PURPOSED actions against these "creations" find themselves DEVOID of REASON and totally RIDICULOUS, as portrayed to be their individual creator's PURPOSE ...FOR THEM...

One builds a WOOD CABINET for visual beauty, functionality, and accomplishment, not to BURN it for FIREWOOD...  :thumbdown:

One writes a PIECE of MUSIC for audible beauty, joy, and accomplisment, not for his paper shredder to have a purpose!  :wacko2:

One manufactures a CAR for visual, audible, and functional beauty, as well as for a mode of useful transportation, ...not as an object to feed the METAL crusher...
  :faint:

GOD tells us to REASON with Him... (Is 1:18) and therefore INDICATES  Himself as a REASONABLE being... otherwise His instruction to us, is found to be VAIN and FOOLISH...

Find some REASON in your BELIEFS dusty... then you give it the opportunity  to sound REASONABLE...  :wink2:

...willieH :laughing7:
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 11:02:25 PM by willieH »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #158 on: May 09, 2008, 12:13:51 AM »
 :laughing7: I posed a thread, and it has run everywhere. The point of the post was wheat and tares. You have no answer to what the tares are except theories that they are the flesh, and that God will include them in the harvest. Contrary to what Jesus said bluntly. :thumbdown:
 It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.
 Theproblem is that the Darkness and his angels were not "made". The tares bodies on the earth are made up of the elements which Jesus made. Their spirit is of their father. He was not made.
 Quoting proverbs about the wicked is deceptive, because Solomon was under the God who spoke from the Gross Darkness.

 As far as quoting Malachi about having one father, that was a prophet talking to the priests of the time, and upbraiding them. He was not speaking to the whole world. :laughing7: Carry on and God bless on the subject.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #159 on: May 09, 2008, 01:18:42 AM »
So the question is--who is 'the Darkness'--and how do we recognize him in the Bible?

Is he a god? :sigh:



You are all sons of the light, and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."

 - 1 Thessalonians 5:5
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 01:30:11 AM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #160 on: May 09, 2008, 01:30:17 AM »
:laughing7: I posed a thread, and it has run everywhere. The point of the post was wheat and tares. You have no answer to what the tares are except theories that they are the flesh, and that God will include them in the harvest. Contrary to what Jesus said bluntly. :thumbdown:

Seems to me you don't know what Jesus' parable was about either. Yes, Jesus said the tares would be gathered up and burned. You should know that this is speaking of works.

(Heb.6:8) But that which BEARETH thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(1Cor. 3:14-15) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Jesus message was ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, this is who he was talking to about the wheat and tares. If ALL Israel is going to be saved this means those who grew the wheat and tares as well.

Quote from: PeaceTroll

It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.
 Theproblem is that the Darkness and his angels were not "made".

Would you explain how they came into being? can evil just pop up on it's own any time it pleases and God cannot do a thing to stop it? If this is true, whoes to say this won't happen again after we are all spirit beings?

Quote from: PeaceTroll
The tares bodies on the earth are made up of the elements which Jesus made. Their spirit is of their father. He was not made.

How do you explain this verse?
(Num. 16:22) And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the GOD OF THE SPIRITS OF ALL FLESH,

(Num. 27:16) Let the Lord, the God of the SPIRITS OF ALL FLESH.

And this one?
(Job 12:10) In whose hand is the soul of EVERY LIVING THING, and the BREATH OF ALL MANKIND.

Quote from: PeaceTroll

Quoting proverbs about the wicked is deceptive, because Solomon was under the God who spoke from the Gross Darkness.

 As far as quoting Malachi about having one father, that was a prophet talking to the priests of the time, and upbraiding them. He was not speaking to the whole world. :laughing7: Carry on and God bless on the subject.

Neither was Jesus speaking to the world when he gave the parable of the wheat and tares.

Here is something you might want to consider. In (John 8:42-44) Jesus is talking to the Jew's and he speaks as though Satan is their father, then in (verse 56) Jesus calls Abraham their father. How do you explain that?  Fleshly speaking, Abraham is their father, spiritually speaking, Jesus considered Satan their father because of their deeds.

CHB

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #161 on: May 09, 2008, 01:47:10 AM »
 He is a part of Elohim, he is the wrath of God, the Darkness,  separated from the love of God which is the light. A hard thing to come to grasps with. This is why the scriptures said this of Jesus.

John 1
 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.


 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who was the other part of Elohim, or plural God, that Jesus was with???

 You know that God dwells in the Light which no man has seen or can see.

Who then spoke as God to Moses out of the thick Darkness??

Deuteronomy 5:22
These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
 
1 Kings 8:12
Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.


 You have your answer to the question if you can bear it.

 Why this was written,

Zechariah 14:8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 NO MORE ELOHIM, OR PLURAL GOD!! JESUS CHRIST WILL BE ALL AND IN ALL!!

I don't see any point in going any further about this subject as you can't explain what people will not hear.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #162 on: May 09, 2008, 01:54:28 AM »
 One last little addition, why would God tell Moses to go to help Israel in Egypt, and then try to kill him??

Exodus 4:21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

 23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

 24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2008, 02:16:37 AM »
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--John 1



"comprehended"

G2638
καταλαμβάνω
katalambanō
kat-al-am-ban'-o
From G2596 and G1983; to take eagerly, that is, seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively): - apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-) take.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2008, 03:39:55 AM »
The proposed doctrine concerning the "Cainites," "Serpents Seed Company," "Tares," "Children of the Devil" is nowhere described in the Bible.  It is necessary to explain such a meaning into certain verses that are interpreted otherwise elsewhere in the Word itself.  There are no Bible words anywhere to be quoted that directly state what PeaceTroll is saying.  If you cannot say it with the actual words of Scripture it is not something we need to believe.

As I shared with PT before, seemingly to no avail, in the middle of the three parables in Luke 15 concerning the woman who lost one of ten pieces of silver, then found it and rejoiced, the underlying Greek word for "lost" is what is used in other passages to prove annihilationism, yet the coin was found.  This is a decisive death blow to that doctrine for any who will bow the stiff neck to make one's expression of faith to be only those things that God saith.

The whole discussion is confounded and tossed into the trash bin when it's principal proponent considers it his place to be dispensing with whatever portions of Sacred Scripture don't suit his subjective criteria.  For His belief, there is no such a thing as Scripture, so it is not decisive.  While God can overcome this hurdle, it is entirely likely He might do so only through the very instrument PeaceTroll has placed himself above as its judge.  God sometimes uses the very person or thing we've rejected.  Outside that he may have to be done to as he has done to God's Word:  be laid aside himself, certainly in certain specific areas of development and usefulness.  There are marvelous things to be said of humility of course .  .  . if he can ever be enticed into putting himself and his doctrine on the altar before the face of His Majesty's presence.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 04:58:06 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2008, 04:06:42 AM »
 :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: ALL I use is scripture, with understanding. I get back feel good interpetations, and the total rejections of the sayings of Jesus.
 It does not bother me, I'm used to that.
I noticed you had no easy answer for why God would send Moses then seek to kill him. Seems you are being willingly ignorant. :sigh: :2c:
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

meerkat

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #166 on: May 09, 2008, 04:25:40 AM »
Why do you think he sent Moses then tried to kill him?

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #167 on: May 09, 2008, 04:30:29 AM »
God is more concerned about the minister than his ministry.  You cannot ignore the will of God with impunity, no matter who you, even rightly, think you are.  Though speculation, it seems possible he may have wanted to please his wife more than God.  God, knowing what was to be revealed in the future, that "circumcision is of the heart and not the flesh" was "seeking" to kill Moses for spurning His mandated Covenant cutting.  Relief came when obedience complied.  Remember, while relevant to us in our own unique tests, this is a peep-hole into God's intimacy with one specific man.  Again and again it is relevant what God has observed, "You thought I was altogether one such as your self."

In what is this answer supposed to benefit you?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 05:02:50 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

bobf

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #168 on: May 09, 2008, 04:50:55 AM »
:laughing7: I posed a thread, and it has run everywhere. The point of the post was wheat and tares. You have no answer to what the tares are except theories that they are the flesh, and that God will include them in the harvest.

No one is saying that tares will be harvested.  Tares will be destroyed.

Quote
It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.

PT: "The Darkness and his angels are not part of His creation, neither are the tares, the children of Satan and his angels"

PT: "Their spirit is of their father. He was not made."

"all things were made by Him"
PT: "He was not made"

"For by him were all things created"
PT: "He was not made"

"that are in heaven, and that are in earth"
Is Satan neither in heaven or earth?

"visible and invisible"
Is Satan neither visible nor invisible?

"whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers"
Is Satan not a throne, dominion, pricipality, or power?

"all things were created by him, and for him"
PT: "He was not made"

"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"
Satan was not made so he always existed?

Offline AJ

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What is Serpent Seed doctrine?"
« Reply #169 on: May 09, 2008, 05:38:12 AM »
.
http://www.gotquestions.org/serpent-seed.html
----------------------------------------------------------

Question: "What is Serpent Seed doctrine?"

Answer:
Serpent seed doctrine is a belief based on poor biblical interpretation and superstition.
It is a primary doctrinal resource for those who want to use scripture to justify racial prejudice.

Serpent seed doctrine is also closely related to other erroneous beliefs such as the Christian Identity movement, and the Kenite doctrine.

Like many false beliefs, it has a built-in defense mechanism; that is, anyone who disagrees with it is accused of being a son of the serpent.

One of the most unfortunate problems with the serpent seed doctrine is that it so heavily relies on prejudice and warped biblical interpretation that it can be very difficult to rationally discuss.

Simply stated,
serpent seed doctrine teaches that the sin of Eve was not simple disobedience, but sexual contact with the serpent, and that Cain was the son of Eve and the devil.

Cain's descendants are, according to this idea, the sons of Satan, and this includes most any race or group that the serpent-seed-believer chooses to dislike.

This idea is rooted in superstitious beliefs, and is particularly popular with white supremacists and anti-Semites; the Unification Church also supports this idea.

Noted false prophets and false teachers such as Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel and William Branham espoused the idea.

Although an idea should not be criticized when it is wrongly applied, it is appropriate to condemn an idea when it logically leads to sin.
A philosophy that teaches that some races or people are universally Satanic, like the serpent seed doctrine, is one such philosophy.

Those who support serpent seed ideas cite many passages in the Bible as proof that their idea is correct.
Almost without exception, these "proofs" require an interpretation that is totally inappropriate to the context of the passage.

For example, Genesis 3:13 is often cited, with the claim that the word translated "beguiled" in the King James version really meant "seduced".

Context and scholarship would disagree.
Proverbs 30:20 metaphorically compares eating and sexual immorality; this is greatly overstated by the serpent-seed believer as proof that the Fall was sexual.

Other passages include Jude 1:14, and the parable of the tares in Matthew chapter 13.
Those who believe in the serpent seed doctrine teach that Jesus' description of the "children of the devil" in this parable is true in a biological sense; again, only one who is trying to force this belief into the Bible will see it this way, it is not naturally read out of scripture.

There are literally dozens of places in the Bible that this false idea has been wedged into; yet every single one requires a person to believe in the serpent seed idea beforehand.

Only by reading a passage and saying, "if you assume that the serpent seed doctrine is true, then this means…" can a person support this false philosophy. For this reason, arguing against the serpent seed doctrine can be difficult.

Those who believe it interpret scripture through a sort of "serpent seed lens", and are not likely to accept other interpretations, no matter how well supported by context and scholarship.

There are some basic questions and contradictions inherent to the serpent seed doctrine that can be used to demonstrate its lack of truth.
For example,
Galatians 3:28 clearly states that race and gender have no impact on our standing with God.
2 Peter 3:9 says that God wants everyone to be saved, not "everyone but the children of Cain."

Nowhere in scripture is anyone identified as a "Kenite," or condemned based on being from Cain's lineage.
Never are we warned about such people by the New Testament writers.
Also, there is the question of how or why such persons survived the flood.

The doctrine supposes that original sin was sexual, but cannot explain why the whole remainder of the Bible lays out a worldview where the original sin was disobedience, not sexuality.

This philosophy is most unfortunate in that it leads directly and logically to two main problems.
Racism is by far the worst;
believing that certain races are irredeemable has no positive application.

The only possible outcome of such a worldview is prejudice and bigotry. There is also a tendency to blow off critics of the serpent seed doctrine as being the very "Kenites" the philosophy believes in. Arnold Murray is particularly guilty of this abuse.

Fortunately for believers, God has given us a resource in scripture that can show us the truth. We need only read it with unbiased and open eyes to find true wisdom.
"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #170 on: May 09, 2008, 06:31:31 AM »
One last little addition, why would God tell Moses to go to help Israel in Egypt, and then try to kill him??

Exodus 4:21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

 23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

 24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.


Are you saying there are two different Lords in the Old Testament?

It's interesting he calls Israel his firstborn son, when Jacob (Israel) was the second born.    :sigh:

meerkat

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #171 on: May 09, 2008, 07:16:41 AM »
Molly,

Does he refer to physical Israel being the first born son leaving Egypt (bondage) as a type for Jesus being raised from the dead releasing spiritual Israel from sins (death) bondage. The second born spiritual Israel receiving the blessing of life.

Offline willieH

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #172 on: May 09, 2008, 08:11:52 AM »
willieH:  Hi PT...  :cloud9:

continuing to avoid and WILLINGLY IGNORE, ...REASON:

It is also no argument against my understanding of them to quote verses saying that all things were made by Jesus that were made. That is a fact.
 Theproblem is that the Darkness and his angels were not "made". The tares bodies on the earth are made up of the elements which Jesus made. Their spirit is of their father. He was not made.

Name the Scripture dusty which says that "their SPIRIT is of their father", and that "he" (their father) was NOT "MADE"...  :dontknow:

And the Scripture which states the creation of the "tares" by their "father" (which YOU believe to be satan - making him a "creator" as well as a "destroyer" :rolleye: )

ALL THINGS is well, ...according to REASON dusty, ...ALL THINGS... You just avoid and WILLINGLY IGNORE, the Scriptures which note you to be incorrect (which are quite numereous in this thread), ...and site positions which ARE NOT FOUND in the Scripture such as:

Their spirit is of their father. He was not made

GOD is the FATHER of SPIRITS... This includes ALL entities which ARE SPIRITS...

(see CHB's last post to get specific verses which state this FACT, aside from Heb 12:9... Job 12:10 / Numb 27:16 & 16:22 )

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 09:50:57 AM by willieH »

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #173 on: May 09, 2008, 08:23:49 AM »
Molly,

Does he refer to physical Israel being the first born son leaving Egypt (bondage) as a type for Jesus being raised from the dead releasing spiritual Israel from sins (death) bondage. The second born spiritual Israel receiving the blessing of life.

I like that.  I like those types of metaphors.

I think that physical Israel of the Old Testament walks out the physical walk in three dimensions that spiritual Israel walks out in the New Testament. I think you could find a one to one correlation for all of it, the physical to the spiritual.  It's easier for us to see it initially in the physical because that's where we start.


1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Offline Molly

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Re: Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)
« Reply #174 on: May 09, 2008, 09:37:06 AM »
30 "Forty years passed. Then an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush. This happened in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw the bush, he was amazed. He went over for a closer look. There he heard the Lord's voice. 32 'I am the God of your fathers,' the Lord said. 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'—(Exodus 3:6) Moses shook with fear. He didn't dare to look.

 33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals. The place you are standing on is holy ground. 34 I have seen my people beaten down in Egypt. I have heard their groans. I have come down to set them free. Now come. I will send you back to Egypt.'—(Exodus 3:5,7,8,10)

 35 "This is the same Moses the two men of Israel would not accept. They had said, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' But God himself sent Moses to rule the people of Israel and set them free. He spoke to Moses through the angel who had appeared to him in the bush. 36 So Moses led them out of Egypt. He did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea, and for 40 years in the desert.

 37 "This is the same Moses who spoke to the people of Israel. 'God will send you a prophet,' he said. 'He will be like me. He will come from your own people.'—(Deuteronomy 18:15) 38 Moses was with the Israelites in the desert. He was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai. Moses was with our people of long ago. He received living words to pass on to us.

 39 "But our people refused to obey Moses. They would not accept him. In their hearts, they wished they were back in Egypt. 40 They told Aaron, 'Make us a god who will lead us. This fellow Moses led us out of Egypt. But we don't know what has happened to him!'—(Exodus 32:1) 41 That was the time they made a statue to be their god. It looked like a calf. They brought sacrifices to it. They were glad because of what they had made with their own hands. 42 But God turned away from them. He left them to worship the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets. There it says,
   " 'People of Israel, did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
      for 40 years in the desert?
 43 You lifted up the place where Molech was worshiped.
      You lifted up the star of your god Rephan.
      You made statues of them to worship.
   So I will send you away from your country.' —(Amos 5:25-27)
      God sent them to Babylon and even farther.


 44 "Long ago our people had with them in the desert the holy tent where the tablets of the covenant were kept. Moses had made the holy tent as God had commanded him. It was made like the pattern he had seen. 45 Our people received the tent from God. They brought it with them when they took the land of Canaan. God drove out the nations that were in their way. At that time Joshua was Israel's leader.

   "The tent remained in the land until David's time. 46 David was blessed by God. So David asked if he could build a house for the God of Jacob. 47 Instead, it was Solomon who built it for him.

 48 "But the Most High God does not live in houses made by human hands. As God says through the prophet,

 49 " 'Heaven is my throne.
      The earth is under my control.
   What kind of house will you build for me?

   says the Lord.
      Where will my resting place be?

 50 Didn't my hand make all these things?'
—(Isaiah 66:1,2)

 51 "You people! You won't obey! You are stubborn! You won't listen! You are just like your people of long ago! You always oppose the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your people didn't try to hurt? They even killed those who told about the coming of the Blameless One. And now you have handed him over to his enemies. You have murdered him. 53 The law you received was brought by angels. But you haven't obeyed it."


 54 When the Sanhedrin heard this, they became very angry. They ground their teeth at Stephen. 55 But he was full of the Holy Spirit. He looked up to heaven and saw God's glory. He saw Jesus standing at God's right hand. 56 "Look!" he said. "I see heaven open. The Son of Man is standing at God's right hand."
 57 When the Sanhedrin heard this, they covered their ears. They yelled at the top of their voices. They all rushed at him. 58 They dragged him out of the city. They began to throw stones at him to kill him. The witnesses took off their coats. They placed them at the feet of a young man named Saul.

 59 While the members of the Sanhedrin were throwing stones at Stephen, he prayed. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," he said. 60 Then he fell on his knees. He cried out, "Lord! Don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he died.

--Acts 7