Wheat & Tares (Excellent Explanation!)

[Peacetroll]

The Wheat and the Tares
darnel / tares / zizanion

Matthew 13

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 

The kingdom of heaven is a kingdom on earth and it is a kingdom to be cleansed.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The wheat represents the Christian population of God's kingdom. The tares looks very much like wheat but it is a different and harmful plant. It is not wheat but it looks like wheat. In this parable, the tares were something that was sown, not by God but by his enemy. So the kingdom is populated with wheat and tares. You might say, the wheat are God's people and the tares look like God's people.

There are a few who can tell the difference between wheat and tares.

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

The servants of the householder can tell the difference between wheat and tares. Do you know of any Churches that identifies any particular group as 'evil'. Not just 'sinners' but a different and evil people? If so, then might it just be that this church is actually made up of 'servants of the householder'.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

At the end of the age there is to be two different gatherings.

Wheat
 Tares
 

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Why wait until the harvest to separate the wheat from the tares?

Matthew 24:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

1.  Pulling up the tares would damage the roots of the wheat.

2. To go through a field of wheat pulling up tares would mean trampling down a lot of wheat.

A Christian knows he is a Christian. Likewise might a 'tare' know he is a 'tare'? And if the tare knows the Bible then 'tares' knows that, at the end of the age, they are to be gathered together and burned. Is there a people living in Christian (wheat) nations that fears being gathered together and burned?

This is what Easton's revised Bible dictionary says about tares / darnel:

"Tares

The bearded darnel, mentioned only in Mt 13:25-30 It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine."

 

While the tares look wheat, look like God's chosen people, it is a totally different plant.

When talking about 'the wicked' Jesus said, by their fruit you will know them.

Matthew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Notice three things from Matthew 7.

False Prophets/Tares
 
1. Look like sheep but are wolves. Tares look like wheat.
2. You can know them by their fruits. Tares have bad fruit.
3. They are to be cut down and burned. Tares are to be gathered and burned.

The tare's fruit, the seeds, contains a poisonous soporific drug. A drug that induces deep sleep, or causes one to become drowsy and lethargic.

Matthew 25

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

From the Dictionary

soporific \sop-uh-RIF-ik; so-puh-\, adjective:
1. Causing sleep; tending to cause sleep.
2. Of, relating to, or characterized by sleepiness or lethargy.

noun:
A medicine, drug, plant, or other agent that has the quality of inducing sleep; a narcotic.

Hamilton's voice droned on, hypnotic, soporific, the gloom beyond the windows like the backdrop of a waking dream.
--T. Coraghessan Boyle, Riven Rock

They were almost an hour behind in their daily schedule, and both women looked tired after a soporific afternoon of three executive meetings.
--Gabriel Garcia Marquez, News of a Kidnapping

Happily, these three lullaby books offer the sort of comforting bedtime soporific that has delivered generations of children, young and older, into deep, safe slumber.
--Lisa Shea, review of The Animals' Lullaby, by Tom Paxton; Time For Bed, by Mem Fox; and I Love You as Much . . ., by Laura Krauss Melmed, New York Times, January 30, 1994

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

We usually think of false prophets to be in churches. But many people do not go to church. Yet we read "they all slumbered and slept". What do we have in our society that affects all of us and is controlled by a small minority in society. Controlled by a people who look like 'wheat'?

Does the television cause people to not only slumber but also to do all kinds of things which one would not normally do, but which a drugged person might do in his drugged madness?

What effect do you see in our society as a result of television, in dress, personal appearance, music, conduct, moral standards? And do the leaders of these tares dwell upon a fear of being gathered together and burnt? 

Tares is not wheat but a totally different plant which is sown by the enemy. It is not a part of God's harvest at all, nor was it sown by God. It will be burned, and there is no chance for it to transform itself to wheat. In short: darnel is not "erring saints", or unconverted humans, but a totally different species (kind).

The darnel does not think it is wheat. It is and knows that it is darnel. It mixes with wheat and it is soporific, and is only fit to be bound and then burned (Matthew 13:30).

The wheat will be gathered to God, but the darnel was not sown by God and has never been his wheat and has never been any part of his potential spiritual harvest. It is from the beginning a different plant, a one doomed to be bound together in bundles at the harvest time, and to be burned, without any way of escape. It is something that came from the enemy.

Jesus explained this parable:

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (NKJV)

But all do not have the ear to hear this. All are not able to understand or bear this.

Now, when the darnel comes to fruit it is more easily recognized for even the non-expert. But those who know more about darnel's characteristics, can recognize it even earlier.

Its fruit, the black seeds, contain a narcotic drug causing slumber. Someone said that if darnel grows among oil-bearing plants and if its seeds are pressed together with the oil-giving seeds, the oil can become lethal because the oil carries the darnel's poison in it.

Jesus said there would be darnel. Where do you think it will grow? Among whom? Why, among the wheat of God: among the saints. But while the darnel mixes with the wheat and may appear to be wheat, it is not a part of the spiritual assembly of God in any way at all.

Still, it will be there, among the wheat, all the way to the time of the harvest. Please also note that darnel becomes really poisonous immediately before harvest time, when it comes to fruit. In other words: darnel is most dangerous just before harvest time, and here we are talking about God's harvest which is reaped by the angels.

Please do not allow yourself to become intoxicated by darnel. Please do not allow it to cause you to go to sleep or to slumber. Please do let it drug you to doing insane things.

Look at the fruit of persons to see what they really are. "Fruit" is not figures or statistics but a biblical criteria, such as is found in Galatians 5:22-23 and in several other places of the Bible.

Please read even Isaiah 8:20: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The enemy who sowed darnel did his sowing in the darkness of the night.

We read:

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you." 15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men, but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord (NASB; emphasis added)

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the barren unprofitable deeds of darkness, but, instead of that, set your faces against them; 12 for the things which are done by these people in secret it is disgraceful even to speak of. 13 But everything can be tested by the light and thus be shown in its true colors; for whatever shines of itself is light. 14 For this reason it is said, "Rise, sleeper; rise from among the dead, and Christ will shed light upon you." 15 Therefore be very careful how you live and act. Let it not be as unwise men, but as wise. 16 Buy up your opportunities, for these are evil times. (Weymouth NT; emphasis added.)

Much said about sleeping. The darnel causes drowsiness, sleep, even lethal drowsiness, and: here we are talking about things on the spiritual level. (There is more on Paul's letter to the Ephesians in the essay.)

We must be aware of the fact that there are many deceivers, who are not a part of the wheat of God but of a totally different kind, directly from the enemy, but still look-a-likes which mix with God's people.

The wheat of God, the true saints, must be a light. They must kindle up the fire of God in them (1. Thessalonians 5:19, 1. Timothy 4:14, 2. Timothy 1:6) and not let their opportunity as the called ones of God go by. God has allowed the very enemy, the enemy of God, to infiltrate mankind, even his spiritual assembly.

Just as physical darnel plants are many in a field, so are spiritual darnel plants many among what God sowed. God allows this to happen, perhaps in order to test his saints, or for some other purpose. But he has also many times and in different ways, and repeatedly, warned us about deceivers, about darnel. God tells his saints what to do: be close to God, study the Bible, blow up the fire of God (the Holy Spirit) so that it will be effective in one's life, and, "buy up the opportunity", as was quoted above. That is: one must use the opportunity which one has been given by God.

Romans 13:12, Ephesians 5:11, 1. Thessalonians 5:1-10, 1. Thessalonians 5:19, 1. Timothy 4:14, 2. Timothy 1:6.

A note: in this document it is taken "for granted" that the commentaries which are referred are correct in their identification of the tares/darnel/zizania as Lolium temulentum which is a wheat-resembling plant with black seeds which contain a soporific drug. (Some say that the seeds in themselves are not soporific but the fungus which comes with them, but that nevertheless means that those seeds are poisonous.) But even if the identification of the exact plant would be incorrect here, that does not change Jesus' warning message to us in the parable concerning darnel in Matthew 13.

Understanding the matter with the darnel plants, that they are a special kind, a separate kindred among us humans, helps one to understand some other things in the Bible also. Like this passage in Matthew which might seem to be logically incorrect:

Matthew 24:34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation [Greek, genea] will by no means pass away till all these things take place. (NKJV; comment added)

We of course know that the people who lived during Jesus' days died, without seeing the things Jesus foretold. Some have tried to explain that obvious problem by saying that Jesus referred to some (single) "future" generation which would not pass away until, et cetera. But that is not a plausible explanation, for Jesus spoke about a genea which existed (lived) when Jesus lived as a mortal man here on earth.

The explanation is simple. The word for "generation" in that passage is genea. That word could actually mean many kinds of things, among those are "a special kindred", "a certain kind of persons" and "a group of persons".

In Matthew 24, Jesus did refer to a special kindred (genea) which lived among the Jews. In that chapter, Jesus describes how deceivers and workers of evil would be in the end times. Even while we cannot be sure, those deceivers might be a part of the darnel.

The kindred, genea, which Jesus warned about will live among men until the things mentioned in Matthew 24 have all happened. But after that the Reign of Heaven will come to effect even here on earth. At that time, Satan and other unrepentant evil spirits will be bound (bundled up) and will receive their judgment (destruction by fire). They will not be allowed to do their work of evil among humans any more. At that time, the kindred (genea) which Jesus spoke about will perish from among men.

Matthew 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. (NKJV)

The Bible has similar passages where the kindred which Jesus warned about is referred to. Here is one example:

Luke 11:50 "that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation [genea], 51 "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation. (NKJV; comment added)

Obviously the blood of men of earlier generations cannot be required at the hand of the generation of men who lived much later, when Jesus was here on earth. That would be a great injustice. But, the blood of Abel and others will be required of a special kindred (genea) which is guilty of all that blood throughout the centuries.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation [genea] of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (NKJV; comment added)

It was not that they were just children of vipers (snakes). No: They were a kindred of snakes. The offspring of vipers is of course nothing else but vipers. And theirs, in turn. Those snakes will co-exist with mankind until Jesus' return, but no longer than that.

Jesus used that strong word snake, for he knew what and who the ones he was talking to were. Jesus used similar descriptions of them quite often. You probably know where the serpent was first mentioned in the Bible and who that serpents was/is; you can read more about that snake in the essays and .

The Song of Moses

Deuteronomy 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
 
http://www.moseshand.com/studies/tares.htm

[Molly]

That was a good article, Peacetroll.  You dig up some interesting things.  The weapon of the enemy is lies.  It is a spiritual war.  Therefore, it is important for God's saints to look for the lie in everything that is presented to them.  If you see a lie, you will be able to identify the plant by its fruit.

You've given one interesting way to read a parable which can be turned over in your hand like a diamond.

Occult means 'hidden.'  In the case of God's enemies what is hidden by them is knowledge.  This is real knowledge about how the world works, scientific knowledge, the agendas of people and groups attempting to influence others, propaganda, false history, false news, false religions--any input which we receive from the world.  This is the bread and butter of occultists--controlling what ideas enter your mind in order to control you.  This is the battle in the heavenlies.

We can go back into the beginnings of mystery Babylon and see how this might have worked in the time of the dawn of modern man.  What if you were able to predict a solar or lunar eclipse?  Instead of sharing that knowledge, you might hoard it for your own ends.   You could then tell the tribe that your god was about to devour the sun and next he would devour the earth if certain things were not done.  To stop it, the tribe would have to give the priests whatever they asked for in terms of possessions and power.  Among the oldest occult symbols is the serpent in a circle--the serpent devouring its tail--signifying the eclipse.  Among the oldest occult structures are sites like stonehenge which predict the eclipses with a very accurate lunar calendar.

The masses might at first ignore you, but when your prediction turned out to be accurate--can you imagine?  You gather them all together for the night of the lunar (or solar) eclipse and then show them in three dimensions that your god is real.  He has told you he is going to devour the moon.  And, he has told you what the people must do to prevent him from devouring the earth.

Hidden knowledge.  It's a con game.  Three cups and a pea.  But to those who don't know the game, who don't have the knowledge, who can't see the lie--it's magic, it's power, it illustrates the godlike qualities of a small group of people who know how to harness that power through their god, who keep it secret,  and who,  therefore, must be worshipped and obeyed.   Those who participate with  them in the con become the tares, the seed planted by the enemy.  Those who are clueless (forgive them for they know not what they do) are put to sleep by a powerful poison, thus unwittingly co-operating as they did in the death of Jesus.

Man has become god.  It's the oldest game in town.  It's a game based on occult (hidden) knowledge which satan promised Eve in the garden--telling her she could become like God.  It's not the knowledge that is bad--it is the hidden (occult) use of it to control and manipulate people.  Those who buy into the lie, gain the whole world but lose their soul.  Like Judas, they sell out their brothers (the human race) for a few pieces of silver. 



Matthew 4:9
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PT... 

How sad your message of EXCLUSIVE Salvation continues to be dusty... and how INFINTELY LESS than GOOD NEWS, it remains... 

Guess you must feel FORTUNATE, not having been chosen to be a "darnel/tare" eh?   That IS what you assume, is it not? 

Your continuing agenda as noted in this post, is just more veiled and carnal nonsense... and only serves to set yourself (and others with like beliefs) as elite, while demoting others to FIREY destruction with NO reason for either...   A message of FEAR and ILLOGIC, certainly NOT ...GOOD... NOR containing MERCY, LOVE and COMPASSION filled POWER... 

Rather it is SELECTIVE for NO REASON, it is TYRANICAL for NO REASON, and portrays dear Father YHVH as an ILLOGICAL and POWER CRAZED maniac, absent of ALL qualities He maintains to have IN HIS WORD... MERCY, LOVE, COMPASSION, TENDERNESS... while bringing DESTRUCTION to things He (being ALMIGHTY), could easily redeem as ALMIGHTY GOD...

Tell us dusty, ...why were YOU created and chosen to be a "WHEAT" and not a "TARE"?      (that is IF indeed you ARE a "WHEAT"  - don't worry dusty, unlike yourself which conveniently PARTIALLY limits IMPARTIAL Salvation to YOURSELF and effectively attempts to remove its possibility from others, ...I believe you are STILL saved bro...  )

Scripture states that:  NO ...MAN... CAN... come unless DRAGGED to CHRIST BY the FATHER YHVH!  (John 6:44 & 65)

On WHAT BASIS, should ALMIGHTY GOD invest something IN YOU (just a lump of dirt), that He (who claims to be IMPARTIAL = Acts 10:34 / Job 34:19 / Rom 2:11 / Gal 2:6 / Eph 6:9) ...shall NOT invest in the VAST MAJORITY of others (also, lumps of dirt)? 

WHY did GOD send out the Disciples to bring the GOOD NEWS to the WORLD Peacetroll?  And in that mission, INSTRUCT them that this GOOD NEWS was to be taught to EVERY CREATURE?    (Mk 16:15)

If that GOOD NEWS was to be TAUGHT to EVERY CREATURE (and this IS SO, otherwise, the SCRIPTURE bears falsehood), but this message is NOT intended for EVERY CREATURE, ...then all it amounts to in the VAST MAJORITY of CASES, ...is an IMMATURE - TAUNT, and NOT, ...GOOD news... and is thereby DEFINITELY found to be PARTIAL...

Your opening post just amounts to more "RESPECT of PERSON" propaganda AGAINST our beautiful, LOGICAL, CARING and IMPARTIAL Father...  Who LOVES His CREATION... and is about RECONCILING it from the experience and consequences of EVIL...

There is no sense re-hashing line by line, this "wheat and tare" issue with you... as your observation of SPIRITUAL things continues to remain in the NATURAL arena... and there is no indication that it shall be otherwise...

FYI those who may find any "credibility" in this post of dusty's:

I would be happy to bring an REVEALED answer to these VEILED views in PM...

   Peace...

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...

That was a good article, Peacetroll.  You dig up some interesting things.  The weapon of the enemy is lies.  It is a spiritual war.  Therefore, it is important for God's saints to look for the lie in everything that is presented to them.  If you see a lie, you will be able to identify the plant by its fruit.

In the NATURAL, a plant cannot bear fruit that it was not CREATED to bear...  an apple tree cannot bear oranges... HOWEVER...

MEN CREATED of a LUMP (portion of dirt - singular) ...are EACH, vessels which are capable of and DO, bear BOTH - EVIL FRUIT (fitted to destruction/natural) ...AND... GOOD FRUIT (prepared/fitted unto GLORY/spiritual)...  As noted by PAUL (Rom 9:21-22) 

Things that are FITTED or PREPARED, are noted to have and contain, the PRIOR intention of their CREATOR...

For EXAMPLE:  When one goes to the store and buy a shirt... the shirts available for purchase have been CREATED or MADE (fitted/prepared) to FIT a person of a given stature... PRIOR to the purchase, the person considering the purchase, takes his/her particular STATURE in mind, that the shirt purchased might FIT that person when it is tried on to wear. 

ALL SINNERS by the power of GOD, are (created) able to bear GOOD FRUIT... yet REMAIN SINNERS able to bear BAD FRUIT, ...and shall continue to deal with that problem (BAD FRUIT)... as the Apostle JOHN noted: (1 John 1:8)

Those who YIELD more to the SPIRIT, shall bear more GOOD FRUIT... but ALL shall bear both... and NONE are exempt from needing SALVATION, from that process in which ALL are (impartially) involved...

ALL finding themselves as vessels which were created by, through, and for GOD... without their "choice" or "desire" considered in that creation...

ALL ...ARE... Sinners because GOD says we are... and JESUS tasted DEATH for ALL (Heb 2:9)...

DEATH is a state which shall (upon the "DEATH" of TIME - the LAST DAY) be ELIMINATED upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST ...IN... the ENTIRE Creation (Rev 21:1-4)... once DEATH is ELIMINATED, ...ALL found within that state of DEATH, are thereby rendered ALIVE... which is the state in which they entered...

peace... 

...willieH 

[Taffy]

Yo PT

im a lttle Rusty bro...been away a while

ONE lump to be remoulded....NOT two different individuals...ALL HIS WORK.... which run parallel with this for mine...

THIS SPEAKS OF INDIVIDUALS ( WHICH IS WAS AND WILL BE) when the passing of Heaven and Earth( the OLD Covenant) comes about for EACH in HIS DRAGGING Time....

Lets Not forget who Christ spoke to....Those who were under the OC....There was a NEW Testator in their misdt ..but for many they didnt SEE...



Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


 Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


 Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


 Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


 Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,


 Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


 Mat 24:40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


 Mat 24:41  Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


 Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


 Mat 24:43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


 Mat 24:44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Be sure to Pm Willie H...he may well have some more to say..
Blessings
Taffy

[Molly]

Hi willie--

I think you are referring to the wheat and the tares being a parable about good and evil in each one of us, or carnal and spiritual,  and I have no problem with looking at it that way--the wheat saved in the barn, the tares burned up.

But, in the case of the Pharisees, you have to wonder what will be saved--a new metaphor here--because the ax is at the root of the tree.  If the ax chops the tree down, only the root will be saved.

Isaiah 1:9
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

A remnant is only a small portion of the seed saved to insure the continuation of the plant.  Otherwise, it would disappear forever like Sodom and Gomarrah (which have never been rebuilt).


Romans 9 is interesting in that it talks about two different vessels--not a mixture within one vessel.




20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? --Romans 9



If we just stopped there, (which I'm sure you won't), we see there are two vessels--one a vessel of wrath and one a vessel of mercy--both created that way by God--one fitted for destruction and one fitted for glory.

There is an interesting lesson here, however you see it.  That word 'vessel,' besides meaning the obvious, also means 'a wife as contributing to the usefulness of her husband.'  And, now we see the many ways that God has talked about his people as his 'wife,' as his 'bride'--calling one wife a harlot, a prostitute, even divorcing her.  He talks to us in ways we can understand, and everyone can understand the effect of a cheating wife--a vessel fitted for destruction-- on her husband.

Are these vessels destroyed?  Or are they created this way to bring destruction on others?  They might tell you the latter, as they call themselves 'anarchists,' 'destroyer,' 'antichrist'--taking a crude and unjustified pride in their role.

So many metaphors, so little time.

But we are told to not follow after righteousness, but after Christ.



30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. --Romans 9

[jabcat]

NOT disagreeing, but a scripture came to mind and I'd like to ask where you all think it fits in here wrt to good and evil being in us all (which I believe it does, but at this moment can't reconcile this scripture with that POV)  Matthew 7:17,18  "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

[Peacetroll]

 Jabcat, you gave an excellent scripture.  Just as a good tree can not bring forth bad fruit, nor a bad tree bring forth good fruit,  wheat can not produce poison bread, nor can darnel produce healthy bread, the parables are speaking of the same thing.


Willie, how do you see Jesus Christ for giving these parables?   As a bigot and liar (such were the Pharisee's accusations against Christ for these very statements)?  

Did Jesus not say that there was wheat and there were tares? Did Jesus say that the Darnel or tares were two halves of one person?  Or did he give a different exlpanation?
It is easy enough to verify;

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The wicked one was ostensibly the planter of the tares, was he not?  The tares are the 'children' or people of the wicked one, I seem to find Jesus' explanation satisfactory.

Now, did Jesus say what their fate was of the tares ('children' or people of the wicked one)????

Matthew  13:
39The enemy that sowed them (the 'children' or people) is the devil (the wicked one); the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

It is quite clear that the 'children' or people of the wicked one were planted on earth at the time the 'wheat' were planted.  It is also fairly clear their final outcome is to be destroyed (burned, gone...outa here).

The darnel or tares are from the wicked one (Satan), therefore they are not of the farmer who planted the wheat (God), Jesus indicated this fact many times;

John 8:46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

In other words the tares are not of God or...the farmer who planted the wheat!

John explained the wheat and the tares in his own way.

1 John 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth (wheat or children of God), and the spirit of error. (tares or children of Satan)

I'm glad to see you see Molly, it is such a joy to see your progress concerning the word and truth of Christ Jesus.  Bravo and HURRAY!  Peace be with you always in Christ Jesus.

Peacetroll.

[sparrow]

PT... I'm trying to understand what you are saying here.


Are you saying that there are human beings here on earth that are children of the devil and that these human beings will be destroyed? If you're not saying that... then can you clarify?
thanks.

[jabcat]

Still wondering about that verse.  However, I certainly believe there are wheats and tares, light and darkness, good and evil, saved and unsaved.  My POV is, that all exists now, but that God will sift it out on the threshing floor come harvest time.  The Good News; I don't believe it ends there, thus my belief in UR.  God works in ages and dispensations, and what He set in motion, He will resolve, and the "end of the Lord is mercy".  

Doing a little reading earlier and came upon this from the CLT in Romans 9, and it blessed me:

I shall be calling those who are not My people "My people, " And she "who is not "beloved", "Beloved,"  "And it shall be, in the place where it was declared to them, "not My people are you,", There "they shall be called sons of the living God."  Now Isaiah is crying over Israel, If the number of the sons of Israel should be as the sand of the sea, the residue shall be saved, for a conclusive and concise accounting the Lord will be doing on the earth."   Rejoice!

[jabcat]

Hi Taffy.  I know it's a little tricky, but to me this does address UR.  I think PT believes in annihilation (if I'm wrong PT, sorry, no ill intent) and others, including me, are bringing out UR....I would agree it needs to be kept on target with UR.  My  , and "way to go" for watching so closely  .

[Taffy]

Hi Taffy.  I know it's a little tricky, but to me this does address UR.  I think PT believes in annihilation (if I'm wrong PT, sorry, no ill intent) and others, including me, are bringing out UR....I would agree it needs to be kept on target with UR.  My  , and "way to go" for watching so closely  .

Thanks for input Jab ...ive reopened the thread.

Blessings
Taffy

[Molly]

One of the most beautiful things about our Lord Jesus was how he went to the most disenfranchised members of society and spent his ministry among them-- healing the sick, saving prostitutes, feeding the poor.  What message did his actions convey? Every human life is precious to God.

This is a message that will not be found in any other major religion in such a pure form.

It used to be the message of the great Christian countries of the world, overtly at least.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.--1John 4

We know it because we have seen it, because we have seen Him.

Totalitarian--fascist and communist--regimes, whether in religion or in politics, do not consider the preciousness of human life.  Human life is so much cannon fodder to them, a means to an end, and if their end is not being met, human life becomes expendable.

The tares hate our God because he threatens to upset their applecart of total domination and control.  They hate him because he gives people the spirit of truth with which to see through their lies.  They hate him because he has come to give life abundantly and they love and worship death.  They hate him because next to his glory, they and their corrupt policies--the ugliness of human desire for control and power-- shrivel up and die themselves.

We have a measuring stick now for 2000 years with which to compare every would be leader, every pastor, every person who would beckon  us to a path; we have a standard of truth with which to compare everything.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[sparrow]

The tares hate our God because he threatens to upset their applecart of total domination and control.  They hate him because he gives people the spirit of truth with which to see through their lies.  They hate him because he has come to give life abundantly and they love and worship death.  They hate him because next to his glory, they and their corrupt policies--the ugliness of human desire for control and power-- shrivel up and die themselves.

Hi Molly,
In your own words, who are these tares? To you and how you see it, are they just lost human beings who will one day, also realize the magnificent love of the Father? Or are these tares, (to you) people who will be annihilated? Or are you seeing the "tares" as being something else entirely? Are you seeing the "tares" as being something that is within all of us?

I'm just trying to really get down to the basics of what people are really saying here....
Trying to understand where folks are coming from as they discuss  "wheat" and "tares" in their own words.

thanks,
sparrow

[Molly]

Ecclesiastes 12:13


13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


"the whole duty"
H3634
כּלל
kâlal
kaw-lal'
A primitive root; to complete: - (make) perfect.

[chuckt]

well there is a natural man and a spiritual man held in the same body, when i became alive in Christ (( his comming))  for me it seems as if my  tares started to be gather and burned.

chuckt

[sparrow]

Ecclesiastes 12:13


13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


"the whole duty"
H3634
כּלל
kâlal
kaw-lal'
A primitive root; to complete: - (make) perfect.

Hi Molly,
Is this in response to my question? Or are you replying to another post?

[sparrow]

well there is a natural man and a spiritual man held in the same body, when i became alive in Christ (( his comming))  for me it seems as if my  tares started to be gather and burned.

chuckt

Hi Chuck..
Thanks, that's exactly what I'm asking.
Just want folks to come out and say what they believe the "tares" are...

I know some feel there are human beings who are tares and will be annihilated, etc.
and others who feel that everyone has tares, etc.

Just trying to UNDERSTAND where people are coming from.

It does NO good to just post a bible verse, if you don't attach along with the bible verse HOW you interpret it! I have no idea what a person is trying to say! I can read the verse and I know MY interpretation, but I have NO CLUE how the other person is seeing it.

Someone could say "FIRE!" and that person's interpretation is that God is going to literally burn people to death. And then someone else could say "Fire!" and their interpretation is that God isn't going to LITERALLY burn someone to death, but His love is going to "burn" away all that isn't "love" in a person, all the darkness...will be "burned" off in a metaphorical sense.

Please, folks...
help a sister understand what you're trying to say..! 

peace.

[chuckt]

first, are you ""the"" sparrow i see at ""another"" forum> starts with a c and ends with a m

second, for me, i have a hard enough time examining myself so i try and not examine others, it is what it is and i only try and seek to LOVE and edify, this is just me for i struggle much with me old flesh, and its passions, again, just lil old euty speaking

im done trying to figure everything out, its not my lot

 And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.


God bless
euty..er um CHUCKT

[sparrow]

first, are you ""the"" sparrow i see at ""another"" forum> starts with a c and ends with a m

second, for me, i have a hard enough time examining myself so i try and not examine others, it is what it is and i only try and seek to LOVE and edify, this is just me for i struggle much with me old flesh, and its passions, again, just lil old euty speaking

im done trying to figure everything out, its not my lot

 And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.


God bless
euty..er um CHUCKT

Hey Chuck! 

Hmmm. There might be another sparrow..
Are you talking about carm? that's the only thing I can think of, I've been to that website a few times I think, so I just went there now to see if they had a message board and sure enough they do. Is there a "sparrow" on there? If so, it's definitely not me. 


Anyway, you said you try not to examine others... but on a discussion board where people are discussing, you can't really discuss anything unless you understand what a person is trying to say, know what I mean? I'm just trying to understand what people are trying to say. not trying to examine them really... just trying to DECIPHER their messages. that's all.

 ,
sparrow

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PT...

Willie, how do you see Jesus Christ for giving these parables?   As a bigot and liar (such were the Pharisee's accusations against Christ for these very statements)? 

Did Jesus not say that there was wheat and there were tares? Did Jesus say that the Darnel or tares were two halves of one person?  Or did he give a different exlpanation?
It is easy enough to verify;

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The wicked one was ostensibly the planter of the tares, was he not?  The tares are the 'children' or people of the wicked one, I seem to find Jesus' explanation satisfactory.

The word KOSMOS (#2889 - strongs) Translated WORLD above means creation, in a wide or narrow sense, and/or ITS INHABITANTS...  YOU, are the "field" dusty... I, am the "field"... ALL MEN are the "field" (earth)...

I am a songwriter brother dusty... Have been for over forty years... this is a talent given from above... The songs that I write, are CHILDREN of that TALENT... Offspring of the gift and talent of music, given me from above. (for which I am, btw, immensely thankful!  )

We are twofold beings brother...  SPIRIT beings which are found to reside in SINFUL FLESH... and ALL deeds or moments of our lives in that SPIRIT and FLESH combination, are placed upon the ONLY FOUNDATION which exists... CHRIST...

Here is the Scripture upon which this process is indicated: (1 Cor 3:11-15)

As we can CLEARLY SEE, ...ALL of, ALL of us (our total lives), ...is (moment by moment) placed upon (i.e. "building" - vs 12) ...the ONLY FOUNDATION (CHRIST - vs 11)... This foundation is a CONSUMING FIRE... and only that which emerges as OBEDIENCE shall abide that fire... 

The WHEAT (gold, silver, precious stones) in each one, shall ABIDE the FIRE dusty... the TARES (wood, hay, stubble) in each one, shall NOT...

YET... in the process of the ELIMINATION of the TARES... even the ONE which shall find their WORK (lifetime) burned up, shall STILL be found SAVED ...BY the FIRE... 

The "CHILDREN" of the WICKED one are the DEEDS DONE by and for the NATURAL Man that exists in ALL of us... (wood, hay, stubble - FLAMMABLE) Destined for destruction... (these DISOBEDIENT or SINFUL deeds emerge from OUR desires/will - James 1:14)

The CHILDREN of the KINGDOM are DEEDS DONE in SUBMISSION to the SPIRIT of CHRIST (gold, silver, precious stones - INFLAMMABLE) Destined for GLORY (deeds done by and for, and emerging FROM, the SPIRIT of GOD which come from HEARING, ...HIS WORD)

Now, did Jesus say what their fate was of the tares ('children' or people of the wicked one)????

You take SPIRITUAL WORDS (written PARABOLICLY) and draw NATURAL CONCLUSIONS... the TARES are not PEOPLE... they are part (dishonorable) of their ESSENCE... as are the WHEAT (honorable). 

Matthew  13:
39The enemy that sowed them (the 'children' or people) is the devil (the wicked one); the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

It is quite clear that the 'children' or people of the wicked one were planted on earth at the time the 'wheat' were planted.  It is also fairly clear their final outcome is to be destroyed (burned, gone...outa here).

"SATAN" (adversity) does not bear "children or people"... it is the BEHAVIORAL discrepancy which was created BY GOD within MEN, that they might DISOBEY the COMMAND of GOD, and thereby GAIN, the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL which was PART of what GOD  DECLARED from the beginning (Is 46:10-11)

I think your biggest hurdle in understanding here is that you yet percieve "the devil" as a being... It is a PRINCIPALITY or POWER which exists in ALL MEN... that being the "characteristic" or "talent" to DISOBEY the command of GOD...

The HEBREW Word SATAN means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... There is no EXTERNAL being which is OMNIPRESENT (has to be in order to affect all men)... which "tempts" us to SIN... SIN emerges from WITHIN MEN... as is CLEARLY NOTED by James - (James 1:14) NOT because some demented being that LURES us into DISOBEDIENCE!

The darnel or tares are from the wicked one (Satan), therefore they are not of the farmer who planted the wheat (God), Jesus indicated this fact many times;

John 8:46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

In other words the tares are not of God or...the farmer who planted the wheat!

John explained the wheat and the tares in his own way.

1 John 4:5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth (wheat or children of God), and the spirit of error. (tares or children of Satan)

Again dusty... He that HEARETH... is the key... HEARING the WORD of GOD, produces the CHILDREN of OBEDIENCE...  GOD opens the EARS of those who "HEAR" according to the chronology of His PURPOSE as it is revealed... that many do NOT "HEAR" (or "see") is not of their own will, it is of the WILL of YHVH (Rom 11:25-26 / 32)

The "children" of the WORD of GOD, are offspring (behaviors/decisions, etc) which are produced by OBEDIENCE... due to the WORK of CHRIST within...

The "children" of man's NATURAL "talent" to DISOBEY, are the offspring of the Wicked ONE which is the ADVERSE (satan) NATURAL (DISOBEDIENT) ONE in each of us... in those YET to be CONVERTED!

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS dusty... Each of us has the same conditions present at our birth (concerning GOOD and EVIL), with GOD's WILL which IS DECLARED as our pathway...  HE is SOVEREIGN and IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS... whether YOU desire to portray His agenda ILLOGICALLY or not...

It is ILLOGICAL to think of a GOD of LOVE who is the CREATOR of ALL THINGS, to have a plan for ANY created THING to find DESTRUCTION (obliteration) as its appointed destiny...  This in itself, is contrary...

GOD is NOT a DESTROYER dusty, ...He is a CREATOR!  ADVERSITY (satan) is the DESTROYER!  And NO PART of YHVH is ADVERSE...

Your view portrays GOD as a DESTROYER... and is thereby confounded and divided by that descrepancy... As you endeavor to name "SATAN" as "The DESTROYER", ...you NAME GOD, the SAME THING! 

GOD is a DELIVERER... and ELIMINATION of ADVERSITY is the method of that DELIVERANCE...

EVEN EVIL (as you probably suppose) shall NOT be DESTROYED (obliterated to nothingness)... rather it shall ETERNALLY SERVE to GLORIFY the LOVE of GOD... as it stands INERT FOREVER, FROZEN by the GLORIOUS DELIVERANCE of ALL, ...FROM IT, by... Father YHVH, and His Son JESUS CHRIST! 

(1 Cor 15:26)  PAUL notes the LAST ENEMY to be "destroyed" is DEATH... and HOW is DEATH "destroyed" dusty?  Glad you asked!  BY RESURRECTION me bratha!  For if EVERYTHING that DIED is made ALIVE, then DEATH... IS thereby ...DESTROYED...

The word translated "DESTROYED" in this verse is KATARGEO (#2673 strongs) which means: to be ENTIRELY IDLE, - Abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become of NO EFFECT, fail, loose, bring to NOUGHT, PUT AWAY, vanish AWAY, MAKE VOID...

This portrayal of the "DESTRUCTION" of death, is not some explosion of sorts... it is a NEUTRALIZATION... EVIL which brings SIN which brings DEATH, shall be NEUTRALIZED to the GLORY of GOD and BENEFIT of ...ALL... dusty, not just you... or others who might as do you, ...think themselves as "wheat" while demoting MOST others to "darnel"...    Making GOD a RESPECTER of PERSONS... PARTIAL to one clump of dirt over another...

peace... 

...willieH 

[meerkat]

WillieH

Thanks so much for your post. I has put together in 1 post a lot of the thoughts that I have been having on the origin and fate of humanity.

I had looked on the internet for a while trying to see if anybody had thoughts about the wheat and tares being in each of us rather than the traditional  believer = wheat, unbeliever = tares and couldn't find anything.  To me it wasn't making sense how a tare could turn into a wheat or why some people would be created to be destroyed.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Meerkat!     to TENTMAKER!

WillieH

Thanks so much for your post. I has put together in 1 post a lot of the thoughts that I have been having on the origin and fate of humanity.

I had looked on the internet for a while trying to see if anybody had thoughts about the wheat and tares being in each of us rather than the traditional  believer = wheat, unbeliever = tares and couldn't find anything.  To me it wasn't making sense how a tare could turn into a wheat or why some people would be created to be destroyed.

You are very welcome meerkat!  GOD reveals His truth and the credit for it is HIS... 

He is about the redemption of the entire CREATION, not just humanity... for all CREATION is awaiting the REVEALING of the CHILDREN of GOD... and in that REVELATION, shall they find wonderful RENEWAL as well!  (Rom 8:21-22)

peace... 

...willieH  :icon_king:

[riverman]

Hello,

This is my first real post here, this subject has interested me for a while. Has anyone considered what barley might represent? It is what unleavened bread is made from and it does not interact with yeast even if you tried to leaven it!

Also, even though barley and wheat are planted at the same time barley matures first and is harvested before wheat.

I thought I would throw this into the mix and see if there was any interest.

Of course I believe there are spiritual implications to this.

In Christ,

RM

[shibboleth]

Here's a link to Barley Overcomers by Stephen Jones you may be interested in.

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/barley/chap2.htm