True story of Lazarus and the Rich man

[martincisneros]

Many people try to build a doctrine for "Hell" out of "there was a certain rich man," as though the KJV were accurately representing the Greek on this, but really it's no different than Jesus saying "There was this rich guy that....." while still speaking in His parabolic style.  The tradition of actual persons being involved in this comes from Latin theology that tried to use the Vulgate as authoritatively as people try to use the KJV today, when both are actually really lousy translations.  The Vulgate has been interpreted as having given a name to the rich man, so that's where the tradition comes from that tries to assert that this isn't a parable.  It's not reflected in the text.  It's a tradition from writers from the dark ages.

Also, I personally believe it's a parable about the raising of Lazarus from the dead.  Jesus did this in John 11, if I remember correctly.  Raising Lazarus from the dead didn't really produce very many believers in what Jesus was saying before Jesus' own crucifixion.  That to me was the point of the parable.

[reFORMer]

Several times, people who use this Scripture portion to prove their "hell," I've answered by pointing out everybody, including Abraham, Dives and Lazarus have to get out of where they are because all shall be raised from the dead.

In death, without a body we can't be tortured and (possibly) without a soul means (probably) we can't know torment (as we know now), though some spiritual soul may be connected to the spiritual "substance" (KJV:  "body," cf., 1 Cor 15:45) of which we consist.  Some of my spirit already went back to God when I was poisoned in 1978.  I saw it leave me. I don't have too much trouble considering the probability of chastening on the other side of the veil.  There certainly seems to be enough here that we can't escape.  Why should it not continue until whatever it is supposed to do will get done?  It is some of how we become those, "Spirits of just men made perfect."  Already for Christ, ultimately  for everything everywhere:  "No more pain!" (Rev 21:4-5)

It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet, at least for a while, be somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)  Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these.  "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc.