Author Topic: Thrust Out  (Read 23302 times)

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Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2008, 02:02:25 AM »
Besides good and evil?

The tree of life is Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline willieH

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2008, 02:04:03 AM »
willieH: Hey there dusty! :hithere:

You return to YHVH's wallow.


I have enough SPIRITUAL sense to believe what the Scriptures SAY... not, as do you, what you wish them to SAY!  :laughing7:

GOD never CHANGES, to include His NAME unlike yourself Peactroll, er dusty, er dustprophet, er... ????  ...which begs the question WHO are you, really?...

The Scripture SAYS no CHANGE is found in Him, in both the OT and the NT:

Here:  (Malachi 3:6)

and Here:  (Heb 13:8)

and Here:  (James 1:17)

 :Yeahright:  Of course, you would believe Him in need of "re-creation"  :pointlaugh:

...pity...  :pitiful:

You shall regret your blatant disrespects of the Name of GOD...  :crywipe:

Are you a jewish infiltrator?

No, to your sorrowful chagrin... I am a Disciple of the Lord JESUS CHRIST...  who's FATHER is also, My FATHER:  YHVH... and who, for the record, NEVER WAS and NEVER WILL BE anything but JEWISH!  :laugh: ...For as the SCRIPTURE SAYS:  He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever --- eh?  :laughhand:

The REAL question really isn't WHO I am, dusty, ... for I have been and always will be willieH and that remains UNCHANGED...  :thumbsup:

The REAL question IS:  ....WHAT and WHO are YOU really?  You have changed WHO you ARE over and again several times in the 3yrs I have been aquainted with you...  :dontknow:


...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2008, 03:44:38 AM »
I can imagine why he'd change his identity.  He speaks of "return to YHVH's wallow" and "crypto Jewish infiltrators."  Once who he really is and what he really believes gets too revealed he needs to hide.   I wondered why he wouldn't answer me when I asked if he thought the children of the devil were an identifiable group like Jews or Negroes.  Regardless, such racism as he pushes is so NOT the spirit of Jesus or anything taught in any of the Bible!  It certainly sounds like were beginning to see his true colors.  Too bad that up til now he can't seem to dump the garbage somebody's pumped into his head and just read the Bible for himself.  Some good deprograming information dealing with his specific case has been put into these threads where we've tried to interact with him.  There are some very real things pertaining to God Himself that are to be entered into.  It's important that we not be sidetracked by these unprofitable and ungodly doctrines that have the potential of destroying the faith of some.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2008, 03:45:21 AM »
Quote
The royal priesthood reigns according to "the law of life and liberty in Christ Jesus."

yes.  That's beautiful.  You showed me that the other day.  The tree of life--


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.(Rom 8:2)

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.--2Cor 3






1And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation.

 2There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.


--1 Sam 2



[I rejoice in thy] "salvation"

H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.



Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #129 on: June 02, 2008, 05:29:16 PM »
Jesus was not created, He is the Creator.

Jesus talked about not being concerned that he was seen as equal to the Father, but he never declared his equality as in being the same entity.   If as some say there is no difference between Jesus and the Father then is Jesus his own father?


Quote
Why would God the Father have to give the authority of the Son back to Himself???


The "why" probably is not necessarily explained in scripure.  We can ask WHY God did or didn't do this or that, but that does not change what scripture says.

Edit: sorry, completely left out the word above in red, DOH

Needing to know why will cause a skew of what scripture really says.   God created Evil,  it says so right in scripture,  but someone will go WHY and it doesn't make sense to them so they will spend their time finding a way to not believe it says what it says in the context of the whole bible. In ecclesiastes it says  God gives us an experience to humble us.

We don't like hearing that a Loving God would do that.

God is the original cause of everything.  If Jesus was not created then "ALL" did not come out of God.   Religion and the trinity doctrine has done a good job at destroying this truth in scripture.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 06:38:01 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2008, 06:09:49 PM »
How many times do I have to say the same thing for you to hear Willy?
 Tares are known by their fruits. A corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit.

God was in the beginning Elohim, containing both light and darkness. He divided the Light from the Darkness. All things are possible with God. He, God God the Father, chose to dwell in that Light, the Light that was in the beginning with God, and was God and in whom is no Darkness at all.

 God the Light is not hasty in anything He does, makes no mistakes, and never repents from what He has declared. The true scriptures cannot be broken because He has declared them.
 
 The Darkness was in the beginning with God and was God, but has been rejected by The Father. The God who spoke out of the gross Darkness is judged by God our Father already and that judgment is being made manifest in this creation.
 He repented many times from things He declared, his wrath was constantly being kindled, and he gave death sentences for tiny offences. He blamed the children for the offences of the fathers to many generations, and condemned the whole human race to death. That is who the first covenant was with. Death. As Jesus said, The Adversary was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.


Wisdom of Solomon (Apocrypha), chapter 1


13: For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

14: For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death (satan or the evil part of the original Elohim) upon the earth:

15: (For righteousness is immortal:)

16: But ungodly men with their works and words called it (death or the dark side of the original Elohim) to them: for when they thought to have it their friend, they consumed to nought, and made a covenant with it, because they are worthy to take part with it.

 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 12:48:34 AM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2008, 02:24:40 AM »
PT,

If you had a testimony of some kind of direct revelatory experience that brought about these anti-Scriptural doctrines of yours I might think you had something (though what that would be I can't say.)  Compounding words, Deutero-canonical and pseudopedigraphic (sp?) material with a sprinkle of Bible is not something to base faith in.  It has some interest, but no authority.

You're a racist Zoroasterian? (sp?)  Never mind, God loves you dearly.  He's full of gentleness and tender pity!  Everybody has to start somewhere.  Come on in!  The water's fine!

"Keep walking along straight paths so that your injured leg won't get worse. Instead, let it heal." Hebrew 12:13 GW  Some version somewhere has something to the effect of, "Find well traveled paved roads so the injured won't get entirely off course..."  This is why sticking to the standard 66 books of the Sacred Scripture is to be commended to you.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 11:33:18 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2008, 02:48:24 AM »
 Reformer, I know God loves me, and has answered my request for knowledge and true faith.
 I know you disregard most of the books of the prophets as base unless they were cannonized by the ancient catholic church, and disregard a man like Enoch who was not, because God took him. Or the wisdom of Solomon, because the things he said did not please the world.
 I have told you of things that are heavenly, and you will not hear. The real reason this world exists, and the logical plan to correct what was wrong from the beginning.
 Even the purpose of the 1000 years of Christ's reign was too big a gnat for you to swallow, yet you can swallow the camel of light and darkness being reentegrated at the end of the age against everything Jesus Christ said. What can be said. I cast many pearls, and you ignor them and call them unscriptural, when all I use is scripture. And never just one, but many.
 
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2008, 05:03:01 AM »
PT,

That you really seem to believe there are among us a race of doomed humanoids that are children of the devil by virtue of flesh birth, their genetic makeup predetermining them to be functional antichrists is so nuts it's hard to even recognize you can think that way!  And it's so NOT in the Bible of Christians and Jews!  Yet you seriously propose we should accept extrabiblical writings in order to believe this?!  It staggers the imagination.  Too dangerous to enslave, now with genetic testing we should know who to transport en mass to the cremetory ovens.  Real sweet!!

I'm curious of what your idea an practice of "spirituality," or what has often been referred to as one's "devotional life" consists, both personal and corporate.  Maybe you're more normal than you seem.   Maybe worse (I hate to think.).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 11:32:24 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2008, 08:25:00 AM »
2And the earth was without form, and void; and 

darkness


H2822
חשׁך
chôshek
kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.


H2821
חשׁך
châshak
khaw-shak'
A primitive root; to be dark (as withholding light); transitively to darken: - be black, be (make) dark, darken, cause darkness, be dim, hide.



was upon

the face


H6440
פּנים
pânîym
paw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively);


 of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 3And God said,

Let there be


H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

["hayah" from the name of God, "I AM," ( hayah asher hayah, "I AM THAT I AM.)"]


light:

[I AM light]

[ . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James1:17)]



and there was light.


[15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim 6) ]



4And God saw the light, that it was good:

and God divided the light from the darkness.



[Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?(2Cor 6)]




5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were




 the first


H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly,


H258
אחד
'âchad
aw-khad'
Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one's thoughts): - go one way or other.




 day.




22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.   

 24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

 25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

 26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

--Revelation 21


« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 08:51:16 AM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2008, 07:48:50 PM »
Quote from: PeaceTroll
13: For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

If God didn't create death how can he destroy it? Or do you think that will never be accomplished?

Here is a scripture that by itself should prove that all will eventually come to know the truth and be saved.

(John 6:45) it is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God. EVERY MAN THEREFORE THAT HATH HEARD, AND HATH LEARNED OF THE FATHER COMETH UNTO ME.

It doesn't say only those that PeaceTroll believes will be saved. It says ALL will be taught of God and ALL that are taught of God will come to Christ. This sounds like the whole universe to me.

We only know in part. How can man understand God who he has never seen when we can't even understand man who we see and talk to all the time?

How can you say that God created SOME just for himself and others just to burn?  Satan cannot reproduce, show us the scripture. God created man in His own image. Would Satan's seed be in the image of God's seed? What you are doing is giving power to Satan that belongs only to God.

(Gen. 4:12) And Adam KNEW his wife; and she CONCEIVED, and BARE CAIN, and said, I HAVE GOTTEN A MAN FROM THE LORD.

If you can show me in this verse where Cain came from Satan, I might become a believer of what you are saying. It says, Adam had sex with Eve and she got pregnant and bare Cain. Why did Eve say, "I have gotten a man from the Lord" if Cain came from Satan?

CHB

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2008, 08:19:30 PM »
 Cain was of the wicked one. Others are nephelim, children of the watchers.

1 John 3:12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Who is the world?

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

 Luke 11:28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 29And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

 Who can hear the Word, Jesus's words, and keep them? Not the children of the god of this world.

John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2008, 08:23:33 PM »
Wisdom of Solomon (Apocrypha), chapter 1


Question peacetroll.

I can go to www.scripture4all.org and find the bible transliterated (I believe that is the term)  so that I can see the words from greek and hebrew directly rendered.

I have not seen anyone complain that this source for the bible is inaccurate or biased.

Is there a source such as this online for the Apocrypha?

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2008, 11:17:43 PM »
Here you go Paul.

Wisdom of Solomon (King James Apocrypha)
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvSolo.html

Here is another good read (which is different then the Genesis version we are use to in the West), it is a 2000 year old targum from the Jews who studied scripture in that time around Jerusalem;

The Aramaic Targum of Jonathan Ben Uzziel on the Pentateuch
http://www.ultimasurf.net/bible/aramaic/targum/jonathan/genesis/genesis_1.htm

Genesis - Chapter 3 
BERASHITH 



1. And the serpent was wiser unto evil than all the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it truth that the Lord God hath said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2. And the woman said to the serpent, From the rest of the fruits of the trees of the garden we have power to eat;

3. but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden the Lord hath said, You shall not eat of it, nor approach it, lest you die.

4. In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art:

5. for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.

6. And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand. And she took of its fruit, and did eat; and she gave to her husband with her, and he did eat.

7. And the eyes of both were enlightened, and they knew that they were naked, divested of the purple robe in which they had been created. And they saw the sight of their shame, and sewed to themselves the leaves of figs, and made to them cinctures. [JERSULAEM TARGUM. And they made to them vestments.]

8. And they heard the voice of the word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

9. And the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Is not all the world which I have made manifest before Me; the darkness as the light? and how hast thou thought in thine heart to hide from before Me? The place where thou art concealed, do I not see? Where are the commandments that I commanded thee?

[JERUSALEM TARGUM. Walking in the garden in the strength of the day......And the Word of the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Behold, the world which I have created is manifest before Me; and how thinkest thou that the place in the midst whereof thou art, is not revealed before Me? Where is the commandment which I taught thee?]

10. And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked; and the commandment which Thou didst teach me, I have transgressed; therefore I hid myself from shame.

11. And He said, Who showed thee that thou art naked? Unless thou hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded that thou shouldst not eat.

12. And Adam said, The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree, and I did eat.

13. And the Lord God said to the woman, What hast thou done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me with his subtilty, and deceived me with his wickedness, and I ate.

14. And the Lord God brought the three unto judgment; and He said to the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou of all the cattle, and of all the beasts of the field: upon thy belly thou shalt go, and thy feet shall be cut off, and thy skin thou shalt cast away once in seven years; and the poison of death shall be in thy mouth, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel.
Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.

[JERUSALEM TARGUM. And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.]


When you can comprehend that God was speaking to The Angel of Death in the above targum about his (Sammual's) children (that he produced via Eve), then you can easily comprehend what Jesus meant with clarity....Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Cain was a child of 'The Angel of Death' or Sammael....Cain and his generations are the very  seed that has continually been at enmity with Adam's seed...Abel (Seth was the replacement for Abel given to Adam);

1 John 3:

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

 14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (If you abideth in death you sure don't abide in Christ..who is LIFE!)

 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 Reformer, there is no bible of the christians and the jews. The christian bible has the old and new testament, 66 books, the jews have the torah, the 5 books of Moses.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 11:45:39 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #139 on: June 04, 2008, 12:01:19 AM »
Reformer, I know God loves me, and has answered my request for knowledge and true faith.
 I know you disregard most of the books of the prophets as base unless they were cannonized by the ancient catholic church, and disregard a man like Enoch who was not, because God took him. Or the wisdom of Solomon, because the things he said did not please the world.

Obviously you misunderstood what I've expressed simply before.  I do not believe any member of the body of Christ should ever accept as canonical what has been authorized by any of these religious governments of man that are not the kingdom of God.  Various sects have put forth various teachings and practices antagonistic to God and His people.  Their very existence is a testimony against them because there is already a kingdom of God where God Himself is both the realm and it's ruler.  They have another authority in another name yet men are confused because they appropriate to themselves words of God.  "Confusion" translates the term "Babylon."  Like the worldly institutions of Rome or Constantinople, not in the heavens but on the earth; whose heads are Pope and Patriarch, not resurrected and ascended Jesus in direct intimacy with us, His flesh and bone (Eph 5) in the earth: these sects "authorize" for those men asleep in the bosom of the great Whore certain texts.  They differ between themselves on this matter.  The tributary Coptic sect approves texts all by itself.  These texts are what you peacetroll, and not I, propose as Scripture.  I assert that only what has been universally accepted among all but the fringes of the Church be considered authoritative. This is not anything of any Institutional heirarchy anywhere, only the people of God before any religious bureaucrazies and in spite of their efforts to destroy the vernacular copies.  This cannot include the Apocrapha, 3 and 4 Esdras, Enoch, etc. that are still rejected by more than 3/4ths of those who call themselves Christian today. What our canon amounts to is the standard 66 books of the Holy Bible.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 12:14:14 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #140 on: June 04, 2008, 01:14:01 AM »
Here you go Paul.

Wisdom of Solomon (King James Apocrypha)
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvSolo.html

I know I can find translated text,  but I do my studying of the holy bible by first looking at the direct translated word from the hebrew and greek text.  Virtually all bound translations change that to make it easier for people to read.  The CLV keeps most of it close but even that translation has a few verses that skew things a bit.   So I was looking for a resource along those lines.

I do have a comment though

Quote
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

I am not sure as far as universalism goes that the average person does not know that God makes a distinction between good and evil and that evil will not be among us when all is reconciled.

The issue here is whether God created all things or indirectly allowed things by design and has ultimate control over the nature of all those things.

For instance the first humans were created by God however that happened, he is the cause of the first humans.   From that point forward, it could be argued that God did not create you or me or a child in the womb, etc etc.  But, God is the original cause that you or I were born but he designed the mechanism or process by which that happens.

Satan is not a human being,  whatever it can be argued that he is, whether it is a fallen angel, whether he was created that way, whether he chose to do anything,  God is the original designer of what Satan does.

In Job, Satan could not lift one finger against job until God granted permission and God DID grant permission.   We are all born into Sin, which means every living human being is at first "of the devil"  with only one exception, Jesus Christ.

Now, God is a God of process, so why wasn't Jesus born into Sin as well, is it really because God just didn't do it that way?   No, the process by which Jesus was conceived was not of the earth.

No other human being is conceived that way, the Devil is the ruler of the earth, any human born through natural means is "of the devil" . The spiritual nature of our existance is bound by the process God set in place.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


So, whether there is an argument about what Tares actually are or not, what a TARE is NOT is a human being  that is physically or spiritually  destined to not be converted and purified as Silver and Gold.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 01:29:44 AM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #141 on: June 04, 2008, 01:33:59 AM »
So, whether there is an argument about what Tares actually are or not, what a TARE is NOT is a human being  this is physically or spiritually  destined to not be converted and purified as Silver and Gold.
Paul, you could explain this a bit better for my sake.  I'm not sure I understand you.  You seem to be pointing to what was originally on my mind in the beginning of this thread.

This parable about the tares was one of only a couple of remaining passages of Scripture I had difficulty answering in defense of the salvation of all.  (While we go on to be busy with many other things,) I remain not fully satisfied, still tending to think of it as the world in our hearts.  There are things born of God's word and the devil's word in our hearts and minds.  The messengers will gather these together in their respective groups in the consummation.  This will determine the nature we are revealed to have.


The Apocrapha is available in various translations at www.ccel.org (Christian Classics Ethereal Library)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 01:41:51 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #142 on: June 04, 2008, 05:58:04 AM »
So, whether there is an argument about what Tares actually are or not, what a TARE is NOT is a human being  this is physically or spiritually  destined to not be converted and purified as Silver and Gold.
Paul, you could explain this a bit better for my sake.  I'm not sure I understand you.  You seem to be pointing to what was originally on my mind in the beginning of this thread.

I'll do my best.   

A tare can certainly be an unconverted person.  The question is if this story means that tares are born into the earth with no hope of being with God.  Any suggestion that any human being has no hope has already contradicted scripture. 

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


Part of the problem with the idea of "satans spawn", so to speak,  is that scripture stating All comes out of God is ignored and Satan is given the power of creation.  In order for a human being to not be of God, Satan has to have the power to create,  there is no way around this.  So we  already have a contradiction and an unscriptural premise and we've barely even gotten to the parable.

Next we have to apply the "words" to scripture,  not just the potential meaning, nor the fact that it is a parable.   Take the words, burn up and apply it to scripture.   


1Corinthians 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he'  shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire.


What is the work of a Tare?

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:



Simon Peter will be with God even though Jesus said this to his face.

Matthew 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter,  "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, for you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."



The parable is also about the process of salvation (harvest).  Those who are written in the lambs book will avoid the lake of fire (narrow gate), the tares, will have their day in the lake of fire(wide gate), if not converted before then as Peter was, to be purified as silver and gold.

The elect (wheat) will be put in the barn first.   The tares must be bound and their works tried by fire, but they too will be in the barn eventually.


The reason so many arguments seem compelling is that some people believe (falsely) that Jesus words are everything we need to know.  This simply is not true.  How do I know this? 

Mt 5:17  "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.



I hope that was helpful.






Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #143 on: June 04, 2008, 06:46:43 AM »
Thanx.  I broke up the sentence of yours I quoted, punctuating it differently in my mind.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #144 on: June 04, 2008, 05:19:57 PM »
Jesus told you what a tare is, and who planted them, and what their end is. No use in my repeating His words, since you do not hear them from Him. :dontknow:
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #145 on: June 04, 2008, 07:32:53 PM »
PT.

To state one doesnt HEAR means one doesnt understand ...YET , many here percieve HIS words quite the contrary to you..just maybe Bro its you who doesnt percieve :icon_flower:

Alas the poor disciples in their carnal reasoning were no different...but one can appreciate from your perspective we are those who lack understanding and are indeed the Blind. :HeartThrob:

Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #146 on: June 04, 2008, 07:37:50 PM »
Jesus told you what a tare is, and who planted them, and what their end is. No use in my repeating His words, since you do not hear them from Him. :dontknow:

You repeat his words, but thats not all of scripture.   Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes, not literal storybook lessons.

I do not see scripture conclude that any human being ever born will not be with God one day.

Jesus is the Savior of all man kind. God will reconcile ALL unto himself.   God subjects ALL in hope.   

I do not have to try to make a case that man has manipulated scripture to make my point appear to be valid.







« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 07:42:12 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Taffy

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #147 on: June 04, 2008, 08:02:21 PM »


The tree of life is Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Hey PT ,when Christ mention HE is the LIGHT of men ..what does this mean to you?

Ecc 11:7 Truly the light [is] sweet, and a pleasant [thing it is] for the eyes to behold the sun ( SON)


1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;  
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.  
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


Now as He FORMS light and Creates DARKNESS, then all is of HIM..such a choosey God eh?..John Calvin enjoyed the thought of the Chosen Few.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].  

For mine much of all this is explained in Genesis...speaking of two covenants , one for the Carnal, One for the Spirit..all HIM never the less

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.  
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.  
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.  
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,  
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.

The LIGHT OF THE NIGHT WAS to  lead US TO  THE TRUE  LIGHT OF the DAY( christ) , BUT THATS NOW FULLFILLED ITS PURPOSE, COULD IT THEREFORE BE THOUGHT TO be evil TO NOW WANT TO stay there..who wants to live in Darkness ( lack of TRUE UNDERSTANDING BRO)the Light of the MOON has had its Night for those in the DAY.

now consider these words in the LIGHT of whats been given


Mat

6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.  
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!  
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when [thine eye] is evil, thy body also [is] full of darkness




But for my understanding in what you continue to write is BUT a FEW be saved and that DARKNESS rules..Darkness therefore Is Brighter than True Light...Im a simple man PT, and for sure that doesnt add up to me...

especially when we are told that HE is a Respector of No person.. then surely  HE must be a Liar,..or MAYBE NOT


Blessings
Taffy


Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #148 on: June 04, 2008, 09:06:10 PM »
This is a trial, played out in the flesh. No man comands his own footsteps here. There is nothing new under the sun, all is a repeat of what has already been done. This is the way God chose to show His judgements are perfect.
 At the end of a trial comes the judgement. As Jesus said the devil is judged already, and that He saw Satan fall as lightning, long ago. All is showing the dividing of Light from the Darkness. That the Light is good, and the Darkness is death..
 There are always two sides in a war, and this is a warfare, most in war are bystanders leaning to one side or the other, but each side has it's soldiers. So it was before and is now.
 We have to make our fight for what we believe true and stand in our place at the judgement seat of Christ. I believe that's all you or I can do.
 
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #149 on: June 04, 2008, 09:08:44 PM »
1 I love you, O LORD, my strength.

 2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
       my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
       He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 3 I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise,
       and I am saved from my enemies.

 4 The cords of death entangled me;
       the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.

 5 The cords of the grave  coiled around me;
       the snares of death confronted me.

 6 In my distress I called to the LORD;
       I cried to my God for help.
       From his temple he heard my voice;
       my cry came before him, into his ears.

 7 The earth trembled and quaked,
       and the foundations of the mountains shook;
       they trembled because he was angry.

 8 Smoke rose from his nostrils;
       consuming fire came from his mouth,
       burning coals blazed out of it.

 9 He parted the heavens and came down;
       dark clouds were under his feet.

 10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
       he soared on the wings of the wind.

 11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around himó
       the dark rain clouds of the sky.


 12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
       with hailstones and bolts of lightning.

 13 The LORD thundered from heaven;
       the voice of the Most High resounded. 

 14 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies ,
       great bolts of lightning and routed them.

 15 The valleys of the sea were exposed
       and the foundations of the earth laid bare
       at your rebuke, O LORD,
       at the blast of breath from your nostrils.

 16 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
       he drew me out of deep waters.

 17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
       from my foes, who were too strong for me.

 18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
       but the LORD was my support.

 19 He brought me out into a spacious place;
       he rescued me because he delighted in me.

20 The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness;
       according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.

 21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD;
       I have not done evil by turning from my God.

 22 All his laws are before me;
       I have not turned away from his decrees.


 23 I have been blameless before him
       and have kept myself from sin.

 24 The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
       according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.

 25 To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
       to the blameless you show yourself blameless,

 26 to the pure you show yourself pure,
       but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd.

 27 You save the humble
       but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.


 28 You, O LORD, keep my lamp burning;
       my God turns my darkness into light.


--Psalm 18





7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
--Matthew 25