Author Topic: Thrust Out  (Read 20829 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2008, 05:18:19 AM »
Jeremiah 31:33

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."





10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. --Romans 2



14When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.

    15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] [e]decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them]


--Romans 2





Hebrews 10:16]

 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."




Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 05:31:21 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2008, 10:41:09 AM »
 1FOR THIS reason because I preached that you are thus built up together], I, Paul, [am] the prisoner of Jesus the Christ for the sake and on behalf of you Gentiles--

    2Assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace (His unmerited favor) that was entrusted to me [to dispense to you] for your benefit,

    3[And] that the mystery (secret) was made known to me and I was allowed to comprehend it by direct revelation, as I already briefly wrote you.

    4When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.

    5[This mystery] was never disclosed to human beings in past generations as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles (consecrated messengers) and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit.

    6[It is this:] that the Gentiles are now to be fellow heirs [with the Jews], members of the same body and joint partakers [sharing] in the same divine promise in Christ through [their acceptance of] the glad tidings (the Gospel).

    7Of this [Gospel] I was made a minister according to the gift of God's free grace (undeserved favor) which was bestowed on me by the exercise (the working in all its effectiveness) of His power.

    8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints (God's consecrated people), this grace (favor, privilege) was granted and graciously entrusted: to proclaim to the Gentiles the unending (boundless, fathomless, incalculable, and exhaustless) riches of Christ [wealth which no human being could have searched out],

    9Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus.

    10[The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety and innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere.

    11This is in accordance with the terms of the eternal and timeless purpose which He has realized and carried into effect in [the person of] Christ Jesus our Lord,

    12In Whom, because of our faith in Him, we dare to have the boldness (courage and confidence) of free access (an unreserved approach to God with freedom and without fear).

    13So I ask you not to lose heart [not to faint or become despondent through fear] at what I am suffering in your behalf. [Rather glory in it] for it is an honor to you.

    14For this reason [seeing the greatness of this plan by which you are built together in Christ], I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    15For Whom every family in heaven and on earth is named [that Father from Whom all fatherhood takes its title and derives its name].

    16May He grant you out of the rich treasury of His glory to be strengthened and reinforced with mighty power in the inner man by the [Holy] Spirit [Himself indwelling your innermost being and personality].

    17May Christ through your faith [actually] dwell (settle down, abide, make His permanent home) in your hearts! May you be rooted deep in love and founded securely on love,

    18That you may have the power and be strong to apprehend and grasp with all the saints [God's devoted people, the experience of that love] what is the breadth and length and height and depth [of it];

    19[That you may really come] to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!

    20Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]--

    21To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen

--Ephesians 3



1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


--Colossians 3



[your life is] "hid" [with Christ in God]

G2928
κρύπτω
kruptō
kroop'-to
A primary verb; to conceal (properly by covering): - hide (self), keep secret, secret [-ly].

« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 10:56:47 AM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2008, 10:55:09 PM »
Quote
What is anyone being saved from if all are incorporated into the body of God?

First, in Romans we find the state of mankind and what we are saved from.

Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation 

If you look up vanity and read all that the word signifies,  we see mankind in a nutshell.


Secondly when you claim that Jesus talking about the devil being some of humanities father you are looking too literally at scripture.  How can we tell when it is literal or figurative? When we take the whole bible into account and see that the literal interpretation is contradicted by something else we need to study why.

We have to believe scripture as it is written first and go from there.  When the bible says  "God wills all mankind to be saved"  and it also asks "who can resist Gods will" (intention).  Then anything that says Gods will can be changed is false.

So how do we know that the devil being our father is figurative for our spiritual state and that some are not literal descendants?

The first bit of evidence is in John 8, Jesus is speaking to the Jews who say they are descendants of Abraham,  if you follow the dialog Jesus shows that they are not yet converted.

Jn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


If the Jews are Gods chosen people, and sons of the devil at the same time, then that creates another contradiction in your analysis.  Gods chosen will not be with him because they are sons of the Devil?


Another piece of evidence is this verse.

Mt 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter,  "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, thatfor you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."


So, are you going to say that Peter is Satan and  that the sons of the devil are Peters Children?

One other verse that gives evidence that unbelievers will be purified from evil rather than being destroyed or eternally tormented is this.

1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

oh and does this mean the "person" or "who" they are gets burnt up?

No.

1Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.









« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 12:08:52 AM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2008, 01:57:57 AM »
 Jesus was simply stating that what Peter was saying was in opposition to what He was born into the world for, not that Peter was from the Devil or was the Devil. Satan is the hebrew word for adversary, or opponent. Your use of it as a proof of all men being from the same Father is fraudulent. As to all th other things in the post, I have already posted the meaning of what is written many times. I DO take the words of Jesus Christ litterally when He explains a parable, or tells what will occur in the future.


The definition of the word satan is as follows.
Easton's 1897 bible dictionary
Adversary
(Heb. satan), an opponent or foe (1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Luke 13:17); one that speaks against another, a complainant (Matt. 5:25; Luke 12:58); an enemy (Luke 18:3), and specially the devil (1 Pet. 5:8).

Hitchcock's bible names dictionary
Satan
contrary; adversary; enemy; accuser

Smith's bible names dictionary
Satan
The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in (1 Samuel 29:4; 2 Samuel 19:22; 1 Kings 6:4;11:14,23,25; Numbers 22:22,33; Psalms 109:6) This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in (Matthew 16:23) It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in (Job 1:6;;2:1; Zechariah 2:1) and without the article in (1 Chronicles 21:1) It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament. I. The personal existence of a spirit of evil is clearly revealed in Scripture; but the revelation is made gradually, in accordance with the progressiveness of God's method. In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Satan" the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on his subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in his character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to him. The captivity brought the Israelites face to face with the great dualism of the Persian mythology, the conflict of Ormuzd with Ahriman, the co-ordinate spirit of evil; but it is confessed by all that the Satan of Scripture bears no resemblance to the Persian Ahriman. His subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever. The New Testament brings plainly forward the power and the influence of Satan, From the beginning of the Gospel, when he appears as the personal tempter of our Lord through all the Gospels, Epistles, and Apocalypse, it is asserted or implied, again and again, as a familiar and important truth. II. Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture. He is spoken of as a "spirit" in (Ephesians 2:2) as the prince or ruler of the "demons" in (Matthew 12:24-26) and as having "angels" subject to him in (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:7,9) The whole description of his power implies spiritual nature and spiritual influence. We conclude therefore that he was of angelic nature, a rational and spiritual creature, superhuman in power, wisdom and energy; and not only so, but an archangel, one of the "princes" of heaven. We cannot, of course, conceive that anything essentially and originally evil was created by God. We can only conjecture, therefore, that Satan is a fallen angel, who once had a time of probation, but whose condemnation is now irrevocably fixed. As to the time cause and manner of his fall Scripture tells us scarcely anything; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil one. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God--love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent we find creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, opposites of qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the devil. III. The power of Satan over the soul is represented as exercised either directly or by his instruments. His direct influence over the soul is simply that of a powerful and evil nature on those in whom lurks the germ of the same evil. Besides this direct influence, we learn from Scripture that Satan is the leader of a host of evil spirits or angels who share his evil work, and for whom the "everlasting fire is prepared." (Matthew 25:41) Of their origin and fall we know no more than of his. But one passage (Matthew 12:24-26)--identifies them distinctly with the "demons" (Authorized Version "devils") who had power to possess the souls of men. They are mostly spoken of in Scripture in reference to possession; but in (Ephesians 6:12) find them sharing the enmity to God and are ascribed in various lights. We find them sharing the enmity to God and man implied in the name and nature of Satan; but their power and action are little dwelt upon in comparison with his. But the evil one is not merely the "prince of the demons;" he is called also the "prince of this world" in (John 12:31;14:30;16:11) and even the. "god of this world" in (2 Corinthians 4:4) the two expressions being united in (Ephesians 6:12) This power he claimed for himself, as the delegated authority, in the temptation of our Lord, (Luke 4:6) and the temptation would have been unreal had he spoken altogether falsely. The indirect action of Satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which he is designated in Scripture. He is called emphatically ho diabolos, "the devil." The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and "set them at variance;" but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of "setting at variance by slander." In the application of the title to Satan, both the general and special senses should be kept in view. His general object is to break the bonds of communion between God and man, and the bonds of truth and love which bind men to each other. The slander of God to man is best seen in the words of (Genesis 3:4,5) They attribute selfishness and jealousy to the Giver of all good. The slander of man to God is illustrated by the book of Job. (Job 1:9-11;2:4,5) IV. The method of satanic action upon the heart itself. It may be summed up in two words--temptation and possession. The subject of temptation is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in (James 1:2-4) that "temptation," properly so called, i.e. "trial," is essential to man, and is accordingly ordained for him and sent to him by God, as in (Genesis 22:1) It is this tentability of man, even in his original nature, which is represented in Scripture as giving scope to the evil action of Satan. But in the temptation of a fallen nature Satan has a greater power. Every sin committed makes a man the "servant of sin" for the future, (John 8:34; Romans 6:16) it therefore creates in the spirit of man a positive tendency to evil which sympathizes with, and aids, the temptation of the evil one. On the subject of possession, see Demoniacs.

The word Devil, has the following meaning.
Smith's bible names dictionary
Devil
(slanderer). The name describes Satan as slandering God to man and man to God. The former work is of course, a part of his great work of temptation to evil and is not only exemplified but illustrated as to its general nature and tendency by the narrative of Gen. 3. The other work, the slandering or accusing men before God, is the imputation of selfish motives, (Job 1:9,10) and its refutation is placed in the self-sacrifice of those "who loved not their own lives unto death."
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2008, 02:47:36 AM »
Jesus was simply stating that what Peter was saying was in opposition to what He was born into the world for, not that Peter was from the Devil or was the Devil. Satan is the hebrew word for adversary, or opponent.

Yes, I know this.

Quote
Your use of it as a proof of all men being from the same Father is fraudulent.


I could be mistaken in the way I use scriptures to validate a point I am making ,  but you are entirely wrong if you believe it to be fraudulent.  

I pointed out that it is evidence of how the bible depicts Satan as a father.  Am I mistaken in seeing your words that you believe a percentage of humanity is literally spawned from Satan himself?


Quote
As to all th other things in the post, I have already posted the meaning of what is written many times. I DO take the words of Jesus Christ litterally when He explains a parable, or tells what will occur in the future.


Christs words to Peter was neither a Parable or about the future.  I'm wondering why that is criteria to not take them literally?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 06:05:57 AM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2008, 08:41:40 PM »
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan[H7854] answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
--Job 1


This word, 'Satan', is a name referring to a specific being who comes into the presence of God along with the sons of God.  We see here that he is 'the arch enemy of good.'   Being the arch enemy of good is not a wishy washy position of someone who is part good, part bad, part flesh, part spirit---it is an extreme description which cannot be misinterpreted.  Satan is God's opponent.




"Satan"

H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.



We see that a slight change in the name (including pronounciation) gives a more general meaning that could be applied to anyone who is [temporarily] going against God's purpose or God's people as an opponent, manifesting this characteristic of Satan.


"satan"

H7853
שׂטן
śâṭan
saw-tan'
A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 08:47:00 PM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2008, 08:43:57 PM »
Quote
What is anyone being saved from if all are incorporated into the body of God?

First, in Romans we find the state of mankind and what we are saved from.

Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation 

If you look up vanity and read all that the word signifies,  we see mankind in a nutshell.


Secondly when you claim that Jesus talking about the devil being some of humanities father you are looking too literally at scripture.  How can we tell when it is literal or figurative? When we take the whole bible into account and see that the literal interpretation is contradicted by something else we need to study why.

We have to believe scripture as it is written first and go from there.  When the bible says  "God wills all mankind to be saved"  and it also asks "who can resist Gods will" (intention).  Then anything that says Gods will can be changed is false.

So how do we know that the devil being our father is figurative for our spiritual state and that some are not literal descendants?

The first bit of evidence is in John 8, Jesus is speaking to the Jews who say they are descendants of Abraham,  if you follow the dialog Jesus shows that they are not yet converted.

Jn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


If the Jews are Gods chosen people, and sons of the devil at the same time, then that creates another contradiction in your analysis.  Gods chosen will not be with him because they are sons of the Devil?


Another piece of evidence is this verse.

Mt 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter,  "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, thatfor you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."


So, are you going to say that Peter is Satan and  that the sons of the devil are Peters Children?

One other verse that gives evidence that unbelievers will be purified from evil rather than being destroyed or eternally tormented is this.

1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

oh and does this mean the "person" or "who" they are gets burnt up?

No.

1Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul this was a very good post, even I learned a few things from it. I also had this thought after reading your post.

Jesus was speaking to the Jew's when he said "you are of your Father the Devil". They said "we be Abraham's seed" and "Abraham is our Father". They knew who they descended from. Now the Isarelites are the "elect", (Isaiah 45:4) Abraham was an Israelite who God said "all the nations would be blessed by". The Bible says that " all Israel will be saved", this would include those who Jesus was speaking to.  PeaceTroll, can you not see a contridiction here compared to what you believe?

Here is what Jesus meant when he said "you are of your Father the Devil.

(1Cor. 4:15) Paul is asking, "yet have we not many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

(Rom 4:11) Speaking of Abraham "that he might be the father of all them that believe".

It was because of their unbelief that Jesus said Satan was their father

CHB

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2008, 09:02:50 PM »
Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation 




"vanity"

G3153
ματαιότης
mataiotēs
mat-ah-yot'-ace
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.


G3152
μάταιος
mataios
mat'-ah-yos
From the base of G3155; empty, that is, (literally) profitless, or (specifically) an idol: - vain, vanity.



G3155
μάτην
matēn
mat'-ane
Accusative case of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, that is, unsuccessful search, or else of punishment); folly, that is, (adverbially) to no purpose: - in vain.



2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.--Genesis 1



Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?



Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2008, 06:36:45 AM »
Your original propositions are never stated in Scripture.

1.) God separating the light from darkness is spelled all different even in Hebrew from Satan being a part of God that God seperated from Himself.

2.) As well, nothing ever says Eve was polyandrous, or, that she had sex with the "serpent" whatever it was.

3.) Nothing in the Bible says anybody but Noah, his 3 sons and all 4 of their wives were on the ark.

Don't claim another uncommon book in another minor canon says it because there is no authority for it.  These aforementioned teachings are not in Genesis, the book that would speak of it if these things were to be believed.

4.)
Jesus says, "...the flesh profits nothing."  You make it profit everything.  (I know this is tangential, but do you believe a racially semitic male has any advantage before God?)

Doctrines not stated in the actual words of Scripture we are wise to avoid.  To use the words of Scripture as inferring this or that, saying God meant some other thing by what He says:  this is the path to deception and is what you are doing.  It may only overthrow the faith of some that imbibe at it's poisoned well, but that is hardly any recommendation.

My concern is someone raised on viedeo games and less stable, maybe even yourself, might come to believe they can identify the humanoid tares and begin to act on it.  Maybe this is already the case.

5.)
Some have thought the Jews and or blacks were "of their father the devil."  When I asked you before you didn't answer me if this was the case with you.
I repeat this with added numbers to request again the impossible:  direct statements (not inferences) quoted from Scripture that actually state in Scripture's own words what you are saying.  It only takes 5 verses.  Maybe that these do not exist might clue you in to a slight adjustment to be more in accordance with the truth.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

bobf

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2008, 07:43:33 AM »
Adam is NOT the father of all as Jesus explained when He said that some were the children of the Devil. You seem to have no ears to hear.

Jesus did not say that those men were not sons of Adam.

Here is what Jesus said about them:
1. They ARE Abraham's seed (making them sons of Adam).
2. Abraham IS their father (making them sons of Adam).
3. Abraham IS NOT their father.
4. They are NOT the children of Abraham.
5. The devil was their father.

Items 2 & 3 are direct contradictions.  What gives?  [1-2] refer to physical birth. [3-5] refer to spiritual birth.

The are two kinds of birth and two kinds of seed.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 04:35:50 PM by bobf »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2008, 07:55:46 PM »
 It would appear that you have put all your eggs in the basket of books approved by the Catholic church long ago, as if those self seeking power grabbers were an authority on what books and what prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The same organization that murdered all other christians as heretics, many millions of them.
 Augustine, poor soul who mutilated himself to stop lust, cutting off the offending member and casting it from him is your guide about who the sons of God were who saw the daughters of men and lusted after them, saying that meant Seth? Good luck with all the deep things of the mystery of Godliness.
 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 06:33:05 AM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2008, 07:35:34 PM »
One last thing about disregarding other sources of information than those approved by the catholics and King James in the 1600s.
 You think the book of Enoch is fiction? Or the wisdom of Solomon, and many others.
Both Jude and paul made reference to the book of Enoch, but you ignor it. Odd if you think Paul was correct isn't it?

Here again is what Paul said.


2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Here is what Jude said, quoting Enoch directly.

Jude 1:14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.







Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2008, 09:09:17 PM »

 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



I would question the use or validity of the word everlasting in the above verse.   The bible has a lot of evidence that punishment is not  endless.   The use of the word everlasting in the old testament concerning the levitical priesthood causes an unreconcilable contradiction since the levitical priesthood is not endless.

The translation of the bible has probably been focused more upon for word accuracy because of the canon, but I suspect the same errors in translation occur in the books not in the canon. 

Regaurdless of what you believe to be the correct blood lines or the validity of writings you wish to use, they do not detract from two things.   Adam representing the beginning of all mankind and reconciliation to God of ALL things.




Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2008, 09:59:53 PM »
 Exactly what I have posted, Adam is the fleshly originator of all MEN. Jesus is reconciling all HIS creation, Adam, to Himself. All human beings are not included in Man who is in heaven. In Him is no darkness at all. He is the Light which no Man has seen or can see. When our change comes, we will see Him as He is.
 The priesthood you spoke of was under the covenant with Death, and as Jesus said, he is a liar and the father of it. He has no truth in him. Paul told you who the priesthood of the true God is.
 Here is the greatest lie ever told.

Leviticus 18:5
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Nehemiah 9:29
And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.

 Jesus christ did exactly that and died on the tree. Ripping that vail, the Darkness,  between God our Father and Man by Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

As jesus said.

John 8:46
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Paul said this of this.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 He also said this of the wicked spiritual powers over this world.

1 Corinthians 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 By the way, you didn't answer about why you ignor Enoch, and many other books the apostles used as authorities because you only use the books approved by the roman church, to justify what they did, or King James approved to break away from the pope and head, his own church, for his own reasons.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2008, 10:36:37 PM »
Exactly what I have posted, Adam is the fleshly originator of all MEN. Jesus is reconciling all HIS creation, Adam, to Himself. All human beings are not included in Man who is in heaven. In Him is no darkness at all. He is the Light which no Man has seen or can see. When our change comes, we will see Him as He is.
 
 By the way, you didn't answer about why you ignor Enoch, and many other books the apostles used as authorities because you only use the books approved by the roman church, to justify what they did, or King James approved to break away from the pope and head, his own church, for his own reasons.


Well, it is possible I have been unclear in my postings, I am not sure.

I personally am not saying any of  mankind in "human" form will be in heaven, reconciled to God, or however all that is explained or defined.  I am saying that the spirit, essence, conscience (the spirit that God breathed into mankind), of every human being to ever exist will,  as these earthly bodies will go away in any event.    I also include All demons , angels, and Satan and any spirit God created, formed, thought of, in this reconciliation of the spirits.


As far as ignoring the other books.  I have read some of the agnostic writings,  I have not studied them in any precise detail.  Not that I never will, but that the basics of Gods love, universalism and our journey with him is not changed to any significant degree by doing so.

Even if Jesus was married, even if Jesus Sinned,  the outcome of the purpose for Jesus life was fulfilled and no uncanonized writing will change that.  What I just said would not be accepted in any church I have ever been in, but the end result of Jesus life does not change one iota.


I cannot answer many questions about the past, the character or morality of anyone of the process of the canon, oppression, murder, the use of the bible for evil.   I do not concern myself with that for two reasons. One I spent half my life  blaming others for my problems,  I want the  rest of my life to learn how to love, and I am learning to see the whole bible as on giant account of love.  Secondly, the word of God is larger than the deeds and opinions of men and I have been drawn to believe the bible, study it and somehow,  maybe,  one day be perfected as the bible speaks of.

Beyond that, if someone chooses to use the deeds or writings of past christians, atheists, agnostics,  greeks, romans, hobbits, or looney tunes,  to form whatever belief they have, then I must concede that it is for a reason and is beyond my power to control.

I offer my opinions on what I happen to believe because I feel compelled to do so.


« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 10:43:53 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2008, 11:05:15 PM »
Even if Jesus sinned???

 Then there is no hope for anything but death. It is still as it was when Solomon wrote the following under the ministration of the Darkness, Death.

Ecclesiastes 12:5
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

Ecclesiastes 4
 1So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

 2Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.


Ecclesiastes 9
 1For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

 2All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

 3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

 4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

 5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 7Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.


 8Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

 9Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
 
 Thank God, through Jesus Christ that for the sons of Adam, His sheep, His wheat, this is not the case.

 Jesus did not create the Darkness, nor deamons, nor fallen angels, nor the tares. These are all of the kingdom of Satan, the Darkness, which has always been.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2008, 11:13:24 PM »
Even if Jesus sinned???

Well, I am placing this suggestion your way,  you wish to acknowledge writings that are not in the canon and I believe there are some that suggest that Jesus sinned, so I suppose you would agree with the canon in that regaurd, correct?

Quote
Jesus did not create the Darkness, nor deamons, nor fallen angels, nor the tares. These are all of the kingdom of Satan, the Darkness, which has always been.


You are correct.  Jesus did not create Darkness, demons, fallen angels(satan and demons were created, they were not perfect and then fell) , or tares.

God the father created and designed all existance. 

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Satan was given power over certain things in Gods creation and Satan is always subject to what God allows  (read Job).


Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2008, 11:28:30 PM »
To quote Enoch is not the same as quoting some so-called Book of Enoch.  That it may have some of the same words as Paul used (that or similar ideas, you didn't say) my first guess would be it was quoting Paul.  It isn't too important since that book has not been accepted by Christians in general.  Like 3rd and 4th Esdras that contain some interesting things and are accepted in part of the ritualistic eastern religious systems, not all of the Christians have accepted them as Scripture.  They have the 66 books that may be counted other ways, as 49 books, but they are the books that have for 2 thousand years been accepted among all Christians.  There have been questions about Revelation and James for instance, but they stayed.  Some have added Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus and the like.  One sect has Enoch.  This is not meant to be an exhaustive list of such "2nd tier" writings.  They have never been accepted by all the believers.  They therefore are demonstrated to not have the authority.  Of course there are other writings ancient and modern that may be of benefit to read.  The Gospel of Thomas may contain some genuine sayings of Jesus not in the Scripture; but, because it was not preserved in use across the millenia it cannot qualify as canonical.  It is a tradition among some that there are as many as 12 other writings kept out of the publicly recognized collection by God.  He gets them into the hands of the righteous if they need them.  That's an interesting possibility.  But the ones accepted among us all are enough.

66 is the number of parts in the temple menorah.  It is His word that God anoints and upon which the flame rests.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

jabcat

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2008, 03:22:20 AM »

66 is the number of parts in the temple menorah.  It is His word that God anoints and upon which the flame rests.

James, this statement got me curious.  Found this little nugget that goes along with what you're saying..."this menorah was made from a 66 pound piece of pure gold. Pure gold was refined seven times."  As for this whole discussion, IMO, revelation is within scripture, and can always be tested with scripture...and not just what pieces of it we may decide is inspired according to our own personal paradigm.  "Reading the white" (revelation) is in the scripture, not against.

God's blessing, James.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2008, 04:31:21 AM »
 Conjecture about nothing at all. The Magen David has six outer six middle and six inner points, do you understand that? What has any of this to do with what we have been discussing?
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

jabcat

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2008, 05:26:14 AM »
PT, you've had more truth spoken to you than many people get in their lifetime, yet you answer in cryptic, unfriendly responses that continue your own circular reasoning. 

If you don't see the point, then I'll tell you.  It has to do with scripture being God's Word, that it's inspired...that God's hand is all over it, in its design, purpose, and revelation.  Scripture...not just whichever parts you, me, or anyone else might decide in our own carnal mind what parts we'll believe.  I've personally responded directly to you that scripture, taken in context is not contradictory. Are you in the group that throws out much of it so your theology fits what you want to think?

Where's all your anger coming from, PT?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 05:33:34 AM by jabcat »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2008, 07:22:01 PM »
 Jabcat, I believed as you do 20 years ago. The greatest thing I knew was that God loved us. I was content disregarding and qualifying the Living Word, Jesus Christ, for what I precieved Paul was teaching. I did not realize why some parts of humanity was litteraly without humanity, when Jesus had explained it from the beginning.
 I was ignorant of so many other books from other prophets who were in opposition to the accepted books of organized religion, and forgot that the whole story of the new testament was written in the blood of JESUS. It is called the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet I was not listening to Him. He said come learn of ME. So that is what I have done my best to do.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 Paul said to do the same thing, but if he sent any letters beyond Hebrews, speaking directly of these things, they were long ago destroyed.

Hebrews 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

 11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.


 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by
reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

 3And this will we do, if God permit.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2008, 07:32:51 AM »
"For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat." Job 34:3

Two of the most sublime books ever written in any language, each like the other side of the same coin to one another are Ephesians and Colossians.  If anyone reads them, giving some attention and patient study, other than blinding the heart with unbelief for whatever pupose from above, it seems impossible any could deny experiencing God's own Word.

Nothing ever before in the history of the world expressed such heights of revelation of ultimate identity, such explanation of Divine nature, such superlative and unsurpassable descriptions of being as Colossians.  I know of actually nothing since then containing such profound expressions of being, which in their place describe that born of God, though I suppose some borrowings must exist.  Pray Colossians and see what happens.

Paul is in agreement with Jesus and the rest of the apostles.  It has been suggested he has the farthest reaching revelation of anything in the rest of Scripture.  This is particularly true of 1 Corinthians 15.  Who obeys 1 Corinthians 14? or 13 even?  Please, you ask of us the impossible:  to turn against beloved Paul.

Except you have the Holy Spirit demonstrating His presence with miraculous signs I know you don't well understand by experience God's love.  If you did you could not reject reasonable solutions to Scripture question regarding Jesus actually being The Savior of All.  What gatherings of believers as an every member functioning body under the headship of Christ have you raised up?  Have you ever even been a part of such a Divine free-for-all?

Reject Paul?  For the slops you're offering!?  O dear God, won't somebody please pray!?
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2008, 06:12:45 PM »
Slops?? Oh well, as Jesus said:

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 Did Jesus say He was the savior of all??? Or was that Paul??? Could it be that Paul knew what he meant by all??? And you do not???
 
Why did Jesus say he was the Son of Man which is in heaven???
 And state that He had declared the Father's name???
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2008, 06:48:27 PM »
Hi Peacetroll,
did Jesus teach Universal Salvation? I believes so. Check out this link:

Did Jesus Teach The Salvation Of All?
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth