Author Topic: Thrust Out  (Read 24035 times)

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2008, 05:45:17 PM »
If a human is not in Adam to begin with, he will not be in Christ at the end.


The scripture states that  ALL are dying through Adam, so this condition has been met.


Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2008, 06:06:12 PM »
No they are not. You may ignor scripture all you wish but Jesus didn't say there were others planted, and by whom to hear Himself speak.

John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Matthew 12:30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.


Matthew 23: 23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

 29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 John the babtist said the same thing.

Luke 3:6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

 7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 I made a point of bringing up the prophesy of Balaam, to emphasize the fact that all the sons of Adam since the flood are decended from Noah's sons, all directly decended from Sheth.
 Where then did one come from who would destroy all the children of Sheth???

Numbers 24:17
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2008, 06:27:59 PM »
There are only two [types] of Adam--the Adam of Genesis 2 and Jesus before the crucifixion. .

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
--1 Cor 15


Jesus is the last Adam.  Up until Christ, Adam had a death sentence over his head.  But after Christ, who is both the second Adam and the last Adam, there is now an end to Adam. Thus, there are no more 'Adams,' only those who are in Christ (or not).


45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. --1 Cor 15


Since the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, his brothers likewise will be this new creation, the resurrected Christ,  a quickening spirit--able to quicken others, that is, bring them to life--and able to come boldly before the throne of God through Christ, moving from earth to heaven and back.



51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.--John 1


"angels" [of God]

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.




2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 06:44:37 PM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2008, 07:19:32 PM »

PeaceTroll,

You believe that part of mankind came from Satan and therefore was not created by God and God is not the Father of those who came from Satan. If I am wrong on this please correct me.

Where do you think Satan came from, was he not created by God? Since God created Satan, doesn't that make God the Father of Satan as well?  (Isaiah 42:5) says God created the heavens and earth and giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. (Isaiah 44:24 says "I am the Lord that maketh all things.

If God created Satan, Adam and Eve, and if ALL humans came from "Eve who is the mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20)?  if Satan was the father of part of the children of Eve wouldn't this make for mixed blood? Part God and part Satan? Wouldn't this make us half brothers and sisters of the children of Satan, since we all have the same mother? Sounds like confusion to me!!!

You haven't answered any of my questions, so I don't expect that you will answer this one either although I would like to hear the answer to this.

CHB

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2008, 07:57:07 PM »
No they are not. You may ignor scripture all you wish but Jesus didn't say there were others planted, and by whom to hear Himself speak.

Hi peacetroll

I am not ignoring scripture, I'm just not agreeing with the way you are using scripture to make your point.   Jesus words are not the only words in scripture to use to find the truths contained in the bible, that is the criteria you have come up with.

Your assertion contradicts the scripture that "as in adam "ALL" are dying".  It does not say, as in Adam "some" are dying. Your point does not effectively explain the meaning of the verse, it only changes the words to fit your belief.


Have a great day

Paul
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 08:00:20 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2008, 11:25:42 PM »
How does it contradict? All the decendents of Adam die, all. The children of this world die because they are transgressors of the laws given by their father from the womb. Adam chose to eat of the tree, who's fruit is death, they are born of it.
That's why Jesus said the lusts of your father you will do.
 As to where the others came from, it is bluntly stated from the beginning.
Satan was not created, but was a portion of the original power/God that was divided in the very beginning (before the heavens were even formed).  The original entity was both light and darkness and this did not please him therefore he did something nobody else can or could do, he divided the bad aspects of himself from the good creating Light and Darkness.

Then the original entity or mind associated with the light NOT the darkness.  The darkness that was divided out was and is god too, but he is pure evil and selfish, the dark aspects of the original Elohim incarnate!

 Our Father decided long before the division to become assocaited with the light...in fact he IS the light!  Both are Elohim or gods (if you will).

It strongly believe it is a big mis-conception to believe Satan was made, he was made no more then the Father (of Light), was made.

Genesis 1
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 John marked the children of Adam, the children of God this way.

John 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 Adam was called the son of God.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 Eve was taken from the rib of Adam, a clone never called the daughter of God. Your spirit comes from your father. That's why the father's name was called the bloodline.

 If Adam was not your father, as with Cain, and others decended from the angels, you are not a son of the Light. He is NOT your Father in heaven. From Abel's birth, it was 300 years until Adam had another son in his likeness, or bloodline, who's name was Seth. Who, as I have shown is the anscestor of all Adamic men on the earth, and it is his decendants that the septer rising out of Jacob is prophesied to utterly destroy. Why Jesus must return lest no flesh be saved alive.
 Where can this person come from since he can't be one of the sons of Seth???






« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 11:32:29 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2008, 12:03:32 AM »
How does it contradict? All the decendents of Adam die, all. The children of this world die because they are transgressors of the laws given by their father from the womb. Adam chose to eat of the tree, who's fruit is death, they are born of it.
That's why Jesus said the lusts of your father you will do.

The wages of sin  is death, everyone sins , So,  you are correct that everyone dies.

The verse states the comparison of death and salvation.   We all die as Adam, because we ALL sin.  We ALL will be reconciled unto God through Jesus as Jesus was resurrected from the dead and died for the Sins of ALL. 

If your point is that somewhere along the way, not everyone makes it back to God, then you contradict.

Quote
As to where the others came from, it is bluntly stated from the beginning.
Satan was not created, but divided out of God our Father, who chose to be the the Light.


Satan was created.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows into the fire of coal, and brings forth an implement for his occupation. And I, I created the ruiner to harm.


Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2008, 12:51:56 AM »
As I have shown, the sins of all in this world are forgiven, this does not mean all are going to be adopted into the body of Christ, or are the wheat, the harvest. All sins of this age are covered,
 All will be resurected in the thousand years of Christ and the saints reign on earth.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 You know that it all the sins of this age are forgiven, this is not speaking of men's words now.

The fokkowing verses are saying just what Jesus said, The wheat is harvested first, then the tares are destroyed.

Revelation 14: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. [The children of Adam during the thousand years]

 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [ This is the millineum ]

 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [This is the destruction of the tares, the children of this world ]

Or, put another way below.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


 At kast all this will be finished, and iniquity will be gone forever, and Death, the Darkness, Satan, is the last enemy destroyed, for ever and ever.


Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2008, 01:06:38 AM »
Quote
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [This is the destruction of the tares, the children of this world ]


I believe this would be the third harvest, the grape harvest, which would also correlate with tabernacles.

It's interesting to read there that the 'vine of the earth' is thrown into the winepress--becoming 'the grapes of wrath.'

But there's another vine--




1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


--John 15




Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2008, 01:19:58 AM »

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.



Everyone giving account in no way excludes anyone from the body of Christ.  We are accountable, but God is responsible,  when you can see this in a positive light, you will understand why all will be reconciled.

Quote
You know that it all the sins of this age are forgiven, this is not speaking of men's words now.

Just as the unpardonable sin is not forgiven in this age or the age to come, what is not said is that it is "never" to be forgiven.   Jesus did emphasize forgiveness, why would there not be forgiveness for all, even if the "time" in which all is forgiven varies?  It's not a case of do as I say not as I do with this.


Quote
The fokkowing verses are saying just what Jesus said, The wheat is harvested first, then the tares are destroyed.

The definition of  Tares  "An unwelcome or objectional element."   All of humanity is in a process of being created in Gods image, it is not finished yet.   Tares is the carnal flesh.
 

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2008, 03:31:19 AM »
Good grief! Do you even consider the scriptures and how they correlate and back one another up? I know you want to defend  the idea God will remix the Light with the Darkness, and if that were so then the whole body of God would perish.
 What is it you don't see?
How do these two different scriptural discriptions not match?

Matther 13:24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

And,

Revelation 14: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. [The children of Adam during the thousand years]

 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [ This is the millineum ]

 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [This is the destruction of the tares, the children of this world ]

And these two.


Revelation 20:
 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 I know it's hard to be objective about what someone presents that is the opposite of what we, as human beings want to be so, but remember, there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is Death. Wrong God. You may think I am a minister of error, but I put my trust in what Jesus said, as some of you may. All one can do is what he can.

Matthew 10:24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

 25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master
, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

 26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.




« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 04:06:44 AM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2008, 04:04:34 AM »
I knoe you want to defend  the idea God will remix the Light with the Darkness, and if that were so then the whole body of God would perish.



I am very sorry peacetroll, my comments in this post will not be meant to slight you or be mean, but your effort in the post I quoted was against a point I did not make.


Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2008, 04:20:32 AM »
Ackknowledged, friend. I am only trying to show that what Jesus said is backed up everywhere in scripture, and to take any other explanation for what He said, that contradicts His repeated declarations is error. No matter where it comes from.
 As it is written:Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

And you know WHO the word of God is.

John 1
 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.

 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

So then who are we if we hear?

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 Why?

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 There are no tares in Christ.

John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.





« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 04:25:46 AM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2008, 04:24:44 AM »
Ackknowledged, friend. I am only trying to show that what Jesus said is backed up everywhere in scripture, and to take any other explanation for what He said, that contradicts His repeated declarations is error. No matter where it comes from.
 As it is written:Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

And you know WHO the word of God is.

John 1
 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.

 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

So then who are we if we hear?

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 Why?

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 There are no tares in Christ.

John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.






Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2008, 07:03:08 AM »
Ackknowledged, friend. I am only trying to show that what Jesus said is backed up everywhere in scripture, and to take any other explanation for what He said, that contradicts His repeated declarations is error. No matter where it comes from.


My main point has been that the words of Christ aid in understanding Gods message throughout the whole bible. 


For instance,  lets look at a couple of verses and see how easily a contradiction forms. 

This point is made from the bias of eternal torment or annihilation.

Mt 12:32 "And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending."

For the most part most people only see "it shall not be pardoned"  they pay little or no attention to the whole of the verse, let alone the whole bible.

1Timothy 2:4 "Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth."

If there is a sin that can "never" be pardoned, then ALL mankind cannot be saved.  So, then the only way to resolve the contradiction is to say that even though the supreme authority of the universe "wills" something, man can stop God.   Of course no where in scripture can you find man having that power, so then we have to say something else, such as Man chooses to go to hell, and other such nonsense.  When in reality,  no matter how it is worded,  the words of 1 Timothy 2:4 are changed to fit the belief.   

What has to be realized is that this verse does not contradict Matthew 12:32, it contradicts the traditional interpretation. 

If we adjust our bias to universal salvation, they do not contradict any longer. 

The wording in matthew tells the story.  If it was a sin that could "never" be pardoned, there would be no reason to mention the age to come, especially when we know there is an age after the age to come. 

We are in an age of wickedness,  the age after that is Christs 1000 year reign,  then there is another age in which we will be judged. 
 
The lake of fire is where unbelievers will be dealt with.  But that judgment purges them to be pure for entry into the kingdom (the wide gate).

This is where this verse comes into play.

Matthew 7:13  "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.


The key is what actually gets destroyed.  The verse does not say,  "leading away into eternal damnation".   But we are "told" that this verse means not everyone gets into heaven.

The interpretation contradicts the bibles declaration that God "WILLS" all mankind to be saved.   

Who can resist Gods will?

Ro 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then,  "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"


So not matter how it is presented,  the idea that only some men will be saved always raises a contradiction, always.

bobf

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2008, 07:11:54 AM »
Paul knew Israel was infested with Indumeans and Kenites, as the scripture below states.

Exactly what determines whether a given person is Indmean or a Kenite?  Can you spell it out specifically for me PT?


Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2008, 08:43:01 AM »
If there is a sin that can "never" be pardoned, then ALL mankind cannot be saved.  So, then the only way to resolve the contradiction is to say that even though the supreme authority of the universe "wills" something, man can stop God.   Of course no where in scripture can you find man having that power, so then we have to say something else, such as Man chooses to go to hell, and other such nonsense.  When in reality,  no matter how it is worded,  the words of 1 Timothy 2:4 are changed to fit the belief.
It certainly isn't from the Bible that people get the idea that any and all sin is infinite.  Pay the relevant death for the specific sin and it's over with.  God revealed in His law that if you steal one apple you owe 4 apples.  If you steal something used for a livlehood payment is 7 fold.  There are no infinite, never ending payment of apples!  People are in the maze of a religious riddle, brain boggled by professional religionists!  Gotta love 'em! 
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2008, 06:19:06 PM »
 What did the apostles say of Jesus?

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

No Adamic man can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, that means lying miracles that would decieve even the elect if that was possible, which it is not, as Jesus told us.

25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

 26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least,
why take ye thought for the rest?

The antichrist will do these blasphemous miracles. To cause men to believe he is Messiah.

Revelation 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.



Adam , or man, will be all harvested at the end of the age. Not saved, harvested. To be saved means you do not go through any part of the thousand year separating of tares and wheat. The saved are who the Spirit was talking to in the following verse.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

That is because the following is true.

Revelation 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 These are the Saints of God, His holy angels who were born from above, not adopted, the workers in the field.

The Elect are saved, but are not on the earth at that time, they are resting and waiting for the end of the whole affair in heaven, as Paul said.

2 Thessalonians 1:7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This is the thousand years in a nut shell, with the end flaming fire, utter destruction of the tares planted by the enemy to destroy the crop, Adam.

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2008, 06:26:20 PM »
12Jesus spoke to the Pharisees again. He said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will have a life filled with light and will never live in the dark." 13 The Pharisees said to him, "You testify on your own behalf, so your testimony isn't true." 14 Jesus replied to them, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is true because I know where I came from and where I'm going. However, you don't know where I came from or where I'm going. 15 You judge the way humans do. I don't judge anyone. 16 Even if I do judge, my judgment is valid because I don't make it on my own. I make my judgment with the Father who sent me. 17 Your own teachings say that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I testify on my own behalf, and so does the Father who sent me." 19 The Pharisees asked him, "Where is your father?" Jesus replied, "You don't know me or my Father. If you knew me, you would also know my Father." 20 Jesus spoke these words while he was teaching in the treasury area of the temple courtyard. No one arrested him, because his time had not yet come.

21 Jesus spoke to the Pharisees again. He said, "I'm going away, and you'll look for me. But you will die because of your sin. You can't go where I'm going." 22 Then the Jews asked, "Is he going to kill himself? Is that what he means when he says, 'You can't go where I'm going'?" 23 Jesus said to them, "You're from below. I'm from above. You're from this world. I'm not from this world. 24 For this reason I told you that you'll die because of your sins. If you don't believe that I am the one, you'll die because of your sins." 25 The Jews asked him, "Who did you say you are?" Jesus told them, "I am who I said I was from the beginning. 26 I have a lot I could say about you and a lot I could condemn you for. But the one who sent me is true. So I tell the world exactly what he has told me." 27 (The Jews didn't know that he was talking to them about the Father.) 28 So Jesus told them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you'll know that I am the one and that I can't do anything on my own. Instead, I speak as the Father taught me. 29 Besides, the one who sent me is with me. He hasn't left me by myself. I always do what pleases him." 30 As Jesus was saying this, many people believed in him.

31 So Jesus said to those Jews who believed in him, "If you live by what I say, you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They replied to Jesus, "We are Abraham's descendants, and we've never been anyone's slaves. So how can you say that we will be set free?"

34 Jesus answered them, "I can guarantee this truth: Whoever lives a sinful life is a slave to sin. 35 A slave doesn't live in the home forever, but a son does. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be absolutely free. 37 I know that you're Abraham's descendants. However, you want to kill me because you don't like what I'm saying. 38 What I'm saying is what I have seen in my Father's presence. But you do what you've heard from your father."

39 The Jews replied to Jesus, "Abraham is our father." Jesus told them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did. 40 I am a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. But now you want to kill me. Abraham wouldn't have done that. 41 You're doing what your father does." The Jews said to Jesus, "We're not illegitimate children. God is our only Father." 42 Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me. After all, I'm here, and I came from God. I didn't come on my own. Instead, God sent me. 43 Why don't you understand the language I use? Is it because you can't understand the words I use? 44 You come from your father, the devil, and you desire to do what your father wants you to do. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. He has never been truthful. He doesn't know what the truth is. Whenever he tells a lie, he's doing what comes naturally to him. He's a liar and the father of lies. 45 So you don't believe me because I tell the truth. 46 Can any of you convict me of committing a sin? If I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 The person who belongs to God understands what God says. You don't understand because you don't belong to God."

48 The Jews replied to Jesus, "Aren't we right when we say that you're a Samaritan and that you're possessed by a demon?" 49 Jesus answered, "I'm not possessed. I honor my Father, but you dishonor me. 50 I don't want my own glory. But there is someone who wants it, and he is the judge. 51 I can guarantee this truth: Whoever obeys what I say will never see death." 52 The Jews told Jesus, "Now we know that you're possessed by a demon. Abraham died, and so did the prophets, but you say, 'Whoever does what I say will never taste death.' 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets have also died. Who do you think you are?" 54 Jesus said, "If I bring glory to myself, my glory is nothing. My Father is the one who gives me glory, and you say that he is your God. 55 Yet, you haven't known him. However, I know him. If I would say that I didn't know him, I would be a liar like all of you. But I do know him, and I do what he says. 56 Your father Abraham was pleased to see that my day was coming. He saw it and was happy." 57 The Jews said to Jesus, "You're not even fifty years old. How could you have seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am." 59 Then some of the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus. However, Jesus was concealed, and he left the temple courtyard.

--John 8

[Jesus was] "concealed"
G2928
κρύπτω
kruptō
kroop'-to
A primary verb; to conceal (properly by covering): - hide (self), keep secret, secret [-ly].

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2008, 06:55:11 PM »
Quote
Adam , or man, will be all harvested at the end of the age. Not saved, harvested. To be saved means you do not go through any part of the thousand year separating of tares and wheat. The saved are who the Spirit was talking to in the following verse.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?




51 I can guarantee this truth: Whoever obeys what I say will never see death." --John 8



[never]"see"[death]
G2334
θεωρέω
theōreō
theh-o-reh'-o
From a derivative of G2300 (perhaps by adverb of G3708); to be a spectator of, that is, discern, (literally, figuratively [experience] or intensively [acknowledge]): - behold, consider, look on, perceive, see. Compare G3700.


G2300
θεάομαι
theaomai
theh-ah'-om-ahee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, that is, (by implication) to perceive (literally or figuratively); by extension to visit: - behold, look (upon), see. Compare G3700.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 06:57:28 PM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »

No Adamic man can blaspheme the Holy Spirit, that means lying miracles that would decieve even the elect if that was possible, which it is not, as Jesus told us.

Your putting the cart before the horse for two reasons, First,  all descend from adam since he represents the beginning of humanity.   Secondly, just because someone called to be the elect cannot be deceived once God converts them does not mean they were "never" deceived.

Satan deceives the whole world,  not part of it.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth. It was cast into the earth, and its messengers were cast with it.



In this thread I am not going to argue semantics over terms between saved and harvested.   I am not against God building a heiarchy by predestining us to have differing purposes in the kingdom.   The issue is whether the next human born or any human to ever exist is possibly predestined to not be with God in some manner one day.   The answer is NO.


Any verse used to say so is an interpretation that will contradict another verse. 

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the WHOLE World.  God WILLS that all men be saved. 

Any doctrine that states otherwise will reword those two scriptures to just name those,  rather than explain their intended meaning.   There is a difference.    In my previous example "God is a Consuming fire"  we can determine that God is not a literal fire, but the explanation of that phrase does not change how it is worded.



Offline reFORMer

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2008, 10:48:15 PM »
How does it contradict? All the decendents of Adam die, all. The children of this world die because they are transgressors of the laws given by their father from the womb. Adam chose to eat of the tree, who's fruit is death, they are born of it.
That's why Jesus said the lusts of your father you will do.
 As to where the others came from, it is bluntly stated from the beginning.
Satan was not created, but divided out of God our Father, who chose to be the the Light.

Genesis 1
 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 John marked the children of Adam, the children of God this way.

John 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 Adam was called the son of God.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 Eve was taken from the rib of Adam, a clone never called the daughter of God. Your spirit comes from your father. That's why the father's name was called the bloodline.

 If Adam was not your father, as with Cain, and others decended from the angels, you are not a son of the Light. He is NOT your Father in heaven. From Abel's birth, it was 300 years until Adam had another son in his likeness, or bloodline, who's name was Seth. Who, as I have shown is the anscestor of all Adamic men on the earth, and it is his decendants that the septer rising out of Jacob is prophesied to utterly destroy. Why Jesus must return lest no flesh be saved alive.
 Where can this person come from since he can't be one of the sons of Seth???

This bit about all Adamic men are to be utterly destroyed because they are descendants of Seth is not stated in the Bible.  Moreover, you've either garbled what you meant to say or I'm missing something that let it make sense, because it doesn't.

Your original propositions are never stated in Scripture.  God separating the light from darkness is spelled all different even in Hebrew from Satan being a part of God that God seperated from Himself.

As well, nothing ever says Eve was polyandrous, or, that she had sex with the "serpent" whatever it was.

Nothing in the Bible says anybody but Noah, his 3 sons and all 4 of their wives were on the ark.

Don't claim another uncommon book in another canon says it because there is no authority for it.  These aforementioned teachings are not in Genesis, the book that would speak of it if these things were to be believed.

Jesus says, "...the flesh profits nothing."  You make it profit everything.  (I know this is tangential, but do you believe a racially semitic male has any advantage before God?)

Doctrines not stated in the actual words of Scripture we are wise to avoid.  To use the words of Scripture as inferring this or that, saying God meant some other thing by what He says:  this is the path to deception and is what you are doing.  It may only overthrow the faith of some that imbibe at it's poisoned well, but that is hardly any recommendation.

My concern is someone raised on viedeo games and less stable, maybe even yourself, might come to believe they can identify the humanoid tares and begin to act on it.  Maybe this is already the case.  Some have thought the Jews and or blacks were "of their father the devil."  When I asked you before you didn't answer me if this was the case with you.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline CHB

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2008, 02:48:21 AM »

(Rom. 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

(Rom. 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

(Rom. 5:10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God. 

(Rom. 5:18) the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

The above scriptures show that Christ died for the ungodly, his enemies, and sinners. He did not die just for the elect. This applies to all mankind.

CHB

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2008, 04:26:17 AM »
 Why do you resort to the strategy that I have not posted the prophrsy of Balaam? You must not even take time to consider what is posted. I never said that Adam, man would be totally destroyed because Jesus [The Spirit of God ] said He would not let it happen.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 You, Reformer, pay no attention to the obvious if it is not what you want to espouse.

I present scriptural facts, backed up by other scriptures, and you tell me what you believe.  You don't seem to know what being saved means. Saved from what? What is anyone being saved from if all are incorporated into the body of God, wherein is no darkness at all? God's name is Man. All men will be found written in the book of life. God is the second Adam.

You cannot argue with me about anything without the words of Christ, not what you think He said, or some interpetation of an apostles writing overiding what Jesus instructed, over and over. Adam is NOT the father of all, as Jesus explained when He said that some were the children of the Devil. You seem to have no ears to hear.

 It's time to wake up and see what is going on. Redemption draweth neigh. He is even at the door.

 Jesus did die for the ungodly, for all, Adam, and the others, but then there is the judgement. The separating. Nothing from this life has any bearing on that time. Every word then will have it's effect.
 The difference is that if you wer of Adam, the wheat, the breath of God, you will die in Christ, if you are a tare, you will be accursed. A leopard cannot change it's spots.
 All who go through that time are ressurected as they were spiritually in this time.


Revelation 22:10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 His reward is His Saints, the bride of Christ.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Thrust Out
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2008, 04:57:32 AM »
17"I see him, but not now;
         I behold him, but not near;
         A star shall come forth from Jacob,
         A scepter shall rise from Israel,
         And shall crush through the forehead of Moab,
         And tear down [destroy] all the sons of Sheth.
--Numbers 24



The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
         Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
         Until Shiloh comes, [Until he comes to whom it belongs]
        And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. --Genesis 49:10



"Shiloh"
H7886
שׁילה
shîylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.





Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.




Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


"lost" [sheep]
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 05:40:12 AM by Molly »