Thrust Out

[willieH]

Jabber,jabber, jabber, you reject the words of Jesus and say ALL of Pauls writings are the way you should go. I do not reject all of Paul's letters, I know he was having a hard time while he was alive stopping phoney letters in his name from judaising his churches. Later many aditions were added by the Augustinians to push their agenda on the gentiles.
 YOU are willingly ignorant of the words of Christ, to further your error, which says there is  no difference between children of God, and children of this world, and that Jesus spoke the words He spoke for the wind. That what you think an apostle said trumps Jesus Christ- the living GOD.
 What foolish sheeple you appear to be.

  

Not even - PT...

No one here is WILLINGLY ignorant of the words of CHRIST...

Many here are however, ...WILLINGLY ignorant of the words of, ...PEACETROLL...  and your " observations", ...of the Words of CHRIST.

...willieH 

[Peacetroll]

  I quote Jesus Christ verbatem. You interpet what He said as you will to counteract what He bluntly stated.
 Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened?

[Taffy]

I quote Jesus Christ verbatem. You interpet what He said as you will to counteract what He bluntly stated.
 Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened?

PT

You still here Bro

Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD?

Hbr 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

so when is salvation....Is, was and Shall be Bro..or better still who....

Christ IS our salvation..NOW , was and shall be

2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)

Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday?

We are made PERFECT, complete ,Whole In Him Bro,..its got nothing to do with us., it really all HIS WORK.

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
 
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

He is also OUR DAY of Judgment..
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened?

As HE has already come for those who were and are , HE will come as a THEIF in the NIGHT to restore what is rightfully HIS( WILL "" BE")

Hes also OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS bro, Righteousness COMES from The east...The EYE that see HIM are those filled with HIS LIGHT.."light"ening is HIS REVEALATION to us..spiritual by discernment Brother.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Tis FINISHED.

Blessings
Taffy

[Peacetroll]

 He wasn't kidding, and every eye will see Him.

Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

As the prophet confirmed, and the scriptures cannot be broken.

Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
 11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 This is not talking about some imagined seing with the spirit.

[Taffy]

Yo PT..

Not seeing( seeing   is understanding DUDE) with the spirit ..really..

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. BUT ONE HAS TO SEE them brother...POOR pharisees were blind..they had NO eyes,,that was their trouble..every pharisee were  made blind at birth, had to be a prerequisite to be one.....had to be, other wise Christ words are lies and NOT SPIRIT.



and for those who understand revelation its signified... so what are Clouds?..those fluffy things in the sky ?..why on earth would Christ return in a CLOUD...I have link if you wish which expounds the Meaning of CLOUDS..just not enough space on one email..tis spiritual in its understand thou..may not suit you bro..no worries ..may add greater understanding to what your reading with those carnal eyes brother..makes much more sence for mine...for the BLIND CANT see..thatS a FACT...NON AS blind AS THOSE who CANT see....TO all those who see Him , HE will be SEEN..AND AS its him WHO draws ALL MEN TO him YET AGAIN TIS HIS WORK..not ours bro...maybe you clainm to much credit?.. .


..is this the revelation of HIS WORDS..of course...but signified..shortly COME TO PASS..
Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

PT.....in that DAY....CHRIST IS THAT DAY..its not a time or place its a  who....the words of scripture testify to HIM..not a day.

spiritual Jerusalem BRO..it will stand..all FLESH WILL be destroyed..tis called death, Willie H and others have been endevouring to share that with you

.

Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
 11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon

hey bro..you ask questions..try answering those of others Bro...ya duck and dive better that Sugar Ray Leonnard... :icon_flower

blessings to you PT
Taffy:

[willieH]

He wasn't kidding, and every eye will see Him.

Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

As the prophet confirmed, and the scriptures cannot be broken.

Zechariah 12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
 11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 This is not talking about some imagined seing with the spirit.

Within the FLESH resides the (MIS)"understanding" of the "Troll"

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brother Graham!

Glad to see you active brother... 

You (very well) said:

hey bro..you ask questions..try answering those of others Bro...ya duck and dive better that Sugar Ray Leonnard...

"Troll" doesn't ANSWER, ...because he has no answers bro...  It is plain to see... 

He resides in his little "cocoon"... with his self-proclaimed "understandings"    ...which make no sense... and ignores EVERY QUESTION asked of him... 

Pity... 

...willieH 

[Peacetroll]

Read the scriptures, instead of producing dogma that is unsupported by Jesus Christ, nor His apostles.
 When did any apostle say that the second coming had already happened? Do you believe it was in 70 ad? Why didn't all those who pierced Him see Him?--

What did Paul say of this?

2 Thessalonians 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So where did the antichrist take over the world and sit in a temple saying he was God, and when?

[willieH]

willieH:  :omg:

You have the AUDACITY to ASK QUESTIONS?

What did Paul say of this?

So where did the antichrist take over the world and sit in a temple saying he was God, and when?

WHO are YOU to ASK QUESTIONS of anyone here, "troll"?

Those who ANSWER questions, are those deserving of ANSWERS to their own...

You have learned LITTLE about GIVING (answering) and practice TAKING (asking) continuously in your discussion method... 

Get a clue!

...willieH 

[Taffy]

Read the scriptures, instead of producing dogma that is unsupported by Jesus Christ, nor His apostles.
 When did any apostle say that the second coming had already happened? Do you believe it was in 70 ad? Why didn't all those who pierced Him see Him?--

What did Paul say of this?

2 Thessalonians 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So where did the antichrist take over the world and sit in a temple saying he was God, and when?

Hi again PT..

"The bible doesn't mean what it says.  It means what it means." .....good quote me thinks.
.

I have responded again to your questions ..but for now have deleted them...

if you could be so kind just to respond to SOME of the questions asked( not just by me , but others) then maybe we can have a TWO way discussion...what say you bro



 
Blessings Taffy

[reFORMer]

 

Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened?

Taffy quoted:  "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hbr 9:28)  It is not, "Every eye shall see Him," but, only, " Unto them that look for Him."  This is a very important observation since Hbr 9:28 is the closest the Bible comes to ever mentioning any "second coming" that I've been able to find.  A significant contributer to the confusion is over 40 times when the N.T. indicates the "presence" of the Lord (from Greek "parousia," "to be, to be present") it is rendered "coming" which refers to something that is away someplace else relocating to here.  The title of Revelation is an example:  not something from someplace else, but lifting the veil on something already here, The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is (Rom 8) the "manifestation of the sons of God" (v.19) for which "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (v.22)  This is tied in with "the glory which shall be revealed in us." (v.18)  I would consider it wisest that we make what is written the foundation of our future expectations.  Jesus has repeatedly manifested to His people down through the centuries.  It is His people that are to be brought into the glory where He is, specially in their physical nature, that they may "appear with Him in glory."

What the KJV translated "lightning," which may mean a bolt of electricity to us, is definitely tied to "dawning" in the Greek.  While dawn comes on quickly it is not instantaneous but gradual.

The word "coming" in the same verse (Mt 24:27) is actually "presence."

[jabcat]

 .  That's a keeper James, you old Sheepdog.  I've copied it to reference it later.  Raised in dispensationalism, the "unveiling" has begun to dawn on me recently.  Thanks, God's blessing, James the Chihuahua.

[Taffy]

Do you think the second coming started in 70 AD? Do you think your becoming more perfect everyday? Do you believe that when He comes every eye shall see Him, fast as lightning from the east to the west? Has this happened?

Taffy quoted:  "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hbr 9:28)  It is not, "Every eye shall see Him," but, only, " Unto them that look for Him."  This is a very important observation since Hbr 9:28 is the closest the Bible comes to ever mentioning any "second coming" that I've been able to find.  A significant contributer to the confusion is over 40 times when the N.T. indicates the "presence" of the Lord (from Greek "parousia," "to be, to be present") it is rendered "coming" which refers to something that is away someplace else relocating to here.  The title of Revelation is an example:  not something from someplace else, but lifting the veil on something already here, The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is (Rom 8) the "manifestation of the sons of God" (v.19) for which "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (v.22)  This is tied in with "the glory which shall be revealed in us." (v.18)  I would consider it wisest that we make what is written the foundation of our future expectations.  Jesus has repeatedly manifested to His people down through the centuries.  It is His people that are to be brought into the glory where He is, specially in their physical nature, that they may "appear with Him in glory."

What the KJV translated "lightning," which may mean a bolt of electricity to us, is definitely tied to "dawning" in the Greek.  While dawn comes on quickly it is not instantaneous but gradual.

The word "coming" in the same verse (Mt 24:27) is actually "presence."

Hi James..way to go Bro ..Dont take much digging up aye Bro...

TO SEE IS TO UNDERSTAND...

Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.    




What the KJV translated "lightning," which may mean a bolt of electricity to us, is definitely tied to "dawning" in the Greek.  While dawn comes on quickly it is not instantaneous but gradual.

DAWN..the start of a NEW DAY ... referred to as the First DAY..THE 8TH DAY...WHICH IS THE MORNING\DAY STAR which RISES IN our HEARTS...ALL CHRIST
and bro for mine it does come quickly

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


Job 7:4 When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? and I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day



BLESSINGS
Taffy

[martincisneros]

He wasn't kidding, and every eye will see Him.

Revelation 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

When Thomas and Saul of Tarsus saw Him, was it their salvation or their damnation -- even if Thomas and Saul wailed when they saw Him??

And I'm not stretching the interpretation if you'll keep these two verses in the context of the first 8 verses, will look it over in the more literal translations -- the more literal the better -- and compare it with the exact same language being used in these two verses you've just cited in the last half of the chapter with regards to Jesus's effects upon John when John saw Him.  Jesus nearly repeated Himself when He was picking John up off of the ground FOR A REASON, because with John SEEING Him, he was spiritually revived after all he'd been through with his arrest and imprisonment.  Verse 8 is identical with verse 18.  How many times does the Bible do that elsewhere without there being a clear implication on the interpretation?

When Jesus comes to all of us, it's always with clouds and a progress of His revelation to us from glory to glory as the clouds are stripped away.  The Him coming with the clouds is never a reference to His return, although I do believe He will literally, bodily return someday.  "Coming with the clouds" is the language of Daniel the prophet regarding the risen Christ coming with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days. 

I suppose I could take it further and say that the clouds are the firstfruits because there's a cloud of witnesses mentioned in the book of Hebrews and Matthew's Gospel says that after Jesus was raised from the dead that many of the saints were raised from the dead at that time.  But I won't insist upon this. 

Most theologians agree, though, about the book of Daniel reference about it being a reference to His ascending into heaven where, as Ephesians says, "He'd fill all things."  Every eye shall be seeing Him!  Every eye, including all of the eyes that you think are destroyed.  They shall see, or perceive Him and shout with joy that in the Lord Jesus alone they have righteousness and strength, according to the book of Isaiah.

Is your heart harder than John Calvin's?  John Calvin even admitted in his notes on Isaiah 25 that all of the pious genuinely would like to see everybody saved.  He entertained the thought further in his comments on "the Lord's prayer."  Is your heart not with him on that?  Or do you revel in the wood, hay, and stubble of St. Augustine who'd pompously assert against the Scriptures that such a Universal Restoration shall never be??!  Are you like the person of old that said "if the Lord were to make windows in heaven, such a thing could never be!"  Peacetroll, yours is the type of unbelief that I read about in the Scriptures where it says that "and the Lord HEARD THEM."  I'm sincerely praying for your soul, because you really are in danger with the types of dangers faced by Korah's rebellion.

Hath the Lord only spoken by the Universalists?  I have the Holy Spirit too!!

Listen to what you've been saying.  You're trying to convince us that God's not really that good.

[Peacetroll]

Well, it's been fun, but Ihave said all I will about this. At least you were all fired up to defend the untenable without relevant scripture. It was entertaining.

Ezekiel 33:3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

 4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

 5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

And who is the sword? And who is the rod?

Ezekiel 21:13
Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[laren]

Well, it's been fun, but Ihave said all I will about this. At least you were all fired up to defend the untenable without relevant scripture. It was entertaining. Awoke you from your dazed complacency, eh? Not much point in talking to the scripturally illiterate. Dream on, as your blood is not on my hands.

Ezekiel 33:3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

 4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

 5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

And who is the sword? And who is the rod?

Ezekiel 21:13
Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.

 

So I have to become scripturally literate first, "clean" my act up first, then I can talk to you.


Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

[willieH]

Well, it's been fun, but Ihave said all I will about this. At least you were all fired up to defend the untenable without relevant scripture. It was entertaining. Awoke you from your dazed complacency, eh? Not much point in talking to the scripturally illiterate. Dream on, as your blood is not on my hands.

How self centered are your words "troll"...   

Shamelessly waving your (self-verified) "literacy" in the faces of (supposed) "illiterates"...

Shame on you and your over-inflated and UNSPIRITUAL ego... 

PS... don't "fret none" about "our blood"... it was already CAREfully ETERNALLY protected, some 2000yrs ago... by one who (unlike yourself) not only KNEW how to LOVE... He was LOVE itself!

You only show that you have much to learn... 

...willieH 

[Taffy]

Hi  Martin..Clouds
Throughout the first five books of the Old Testament, a single cloud invariably typified Christ. In Genesis, the token of God's covenant with Noah, that He would never again destroy all flesh with a flood of waters, was never mentioned apart from the cloud in which it would appear (Gen 9:13-16). In fact, God specified that the rainbow would be preceded by the cloud coming over the earth (Gen 9:14). In every other instance of a single cloud in the Pentateuch, the cloud that preceded Israel thoughout the wilderness is under discussion. In these instances, the Hebrew word is ‛ânân (Strong's #6051). The cloud was a pillar that led Israel while they walked in the light of day, but while they walked in the darkness of night, the pillar was of fire. (That being the case, we may conclude that we can walk in light and be led by a shining cloud, or we can walk in darkness and be led by fiery trial. Either way, we are led by God, but we may be led in peace or in judgment. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1Co 11:31-32)) This same pillar, while providing light for God's people (then or now) during the night, showed only darkness to the persuing denizens of Egypt (the world). When the cloud would fill the tabernacle (and later, the temple) of the Lord with the glory of the Lord, neither Moses (the Law - Exo 40:35) nor the priests were able to stand to minister and were displaced from the temple (1Ki 8:11; 2Ch 5:14). The glory and light of the Lord are associated with a cloud in other instances throughout the Old Testament as well (Job 37:15; Eze 1:28, 10:3-4).
The loftiness of clouds is used to describe the supremacy of the Lord in that he is higher than the clouds (Nah 1:3). The Lord is commonly depicted as riding upon a cloud (Isa 19:1; Mat 24:30, 26:64; Mar 13:26, 14:62; Luk 21:27), and in Psalm 140:3, clouds are said to be the Lord's chariot. In this sense of loftiness, clouds are also likened to the vain aspirations of evil men (Job 20:6; Isa 14:14; 2Pe 2:17; Jud 1:12). However, God's people with whom he is well pleased are also likened to clouds or otherwise associated with them in the loftiness of their calling (Isa 60:8; 1Th 4:17; Heb 12:1; Rev 11:12).

In most cases, throughout, clouds act in the capacity of a covering (Job 22:14, 26:9; Psa 105:39). The word most commonly translated as 'cloud' or 'clouds,' ‛ânân, is in fact derived from a word meaning 'covering' (‛ânan - Strong's #6049). In some cases, this covering was for a blessing (Isa 25:5, 44:22); in others, it was for a punishment or curse (Job 3:5; Lam 2:1, 3:44; Eze 30:18, 32:7). ...He scattereth his bright cloud: And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy (Job 37:11-13). Quite often, clouds operate in close association with darkness even in connection with God (Job 38:9; Eze 32:7-8, 34:12; Joe 2:2; Zep 1:15). In fact, there are many Old Testament descriptions of God's abode that include clouds and darkness (Deu 4:11, 5:22; 2Sa 22:12; Psa 97:2). Both as a covering and in connection with darkness, clouds are described as the earth's garment (Job 38:9)

Another aspect of clouds for which they are used as types is their impermanence. As such, they are likened to man; be it his flesh (Job 7:9), his welfare (Job 30:15), his goodness (kindness, mercy) (Hos 6:4), or his works (Hos 13:3).

This can be contrasted with prophecies of the coming Messiah in which He either rides a cloud (is over them) or in which there are no clouds. And therein lies an indication of the primary function of clouds as types. Whether as blessing or judgment, a cloud has always indicated that the associated subject was not fully revealed or that there was some mediating factor between the parties that the cloud divided. The fact that the morning is cloudless when Christ, He who rules over men, arrives (2Sa 23:4), shows that the coming of Jesus Christ is a revelation and a fulfillment. His work has permanence. He is over all and covers all....

aka Mike Vinson.
Blessings
Taffy

[Taffy]

Hi Guys.

Just to mention two posts have been edited as certain comments were becoming personal , by all means discuss  but endeavour to be nice.

Blessings
Taffy

[Molly]

1 Poor me! I am like those gathering summer fruit, like those picking grapes. But there aren't any grapes to eat or any ripened figs that I crave.

2 Faithful people are gone from the earth, and no one is decent. All people lie in ambush to commit murder. They trap each other with nets.

3 Their hands are skilled in doing evil. Officials ask for gifts. Judges accept bribes. Powerful people dictate what they want. So they scheme together.

4 The best of them is like a briar. The most decent person is sharper than thornbushes. The day you thought you would be punished has come. Now is the time you will be confused.

5 Don't trust your neighbors. Don't have confidence in your friends. Keep your mouth shut even when a woman is lying in your arms.

6 A son treats his father with contempt. A daughter rebels against her mother. A daughter-in-law rebels against her mother-in-law. People's enemies are the members of their own families.

7 I will look to the LORD. I will wait for God to save me. I will wait for my God to listen to me.

8 Don't laugh at me, my enemies. Although I've fallen, I will get up. Although I sit in the dark, the LORD is my light.

9 I have sinned against the LORD. So I will endure his fury until he takes up my cause and wins my case. He will bring me into the light, and I will see his victory.

10 Then my enemies will see this, and they will be covered with shame, because they asked me, "Where is the LORD your God?" Now I look at them. They are trampled like mud in the streets.

11 The day for rebuilding your walls and extending your borders is coming.

12 When that day comes, your people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, from Egypt to the Euphrates River, from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

13 The earth will become a wasteland for those who live on it because of what the people living there have done.

14 With your shepherd's staff, take care of your people, the sheep that belong to you. They live alone in the woods, in fertile pastures. Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead like before.

15 Let us see miracles like the time you came out of Egypt.

16 Nations will see this and be ashamed in spite of all their strength. They will put their hands over their mouths. Their ears will become deaf.

17 They will lick dust like snakes, like animals that crawl on the ground. They will come out of their hiding places trembling. They will turn away from your presence in fear, O LORD our God. They will be afraid of you.

18 Who is a God like you? You forgive sin and overlook the rebellion of your faithful people. You will not be angry forever, because you would rather show mercy.

19 You will again have compassion on us. You will overcome our wrongdoing. You will throw all our sins into the deep sea.

20 You will be faithful to Jacob. You will have mercy on Abraham as you swore by an oath to our ancestors long ago.

--Micah 7


11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

--Matthew 24


Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

[Peacetroll]

Sorry for offending you guys, just trying to get scriptural refuteing of what I posted. A little on what Molly posted. Have a good day.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 This is the Israel of God.

Revelation 14:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 This is a work in progress. As the angel said.

Revelation 7:2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 These are few and far between on the earth.

Jeremiah 3:13Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.

 14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
 15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding

 Who are those pastors?

Revelation 1:
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 These seven angels are the pastors over the churchs on the earth throughout time.

If you wish you may know their names, here they are from the book of Enoch, translated from the dead sea schrolls, and the source.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm

XX. Names and Functions of the Seven Archangels.
20

1,2
And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is
3
over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
4,5
Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. Michael, one
6
of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqâêl,
7
one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. Gabriel, one of the holy
8
angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

[Taffy]

Hey PT
no offence  taken here Bud..

Just bringing to attention the rules set down for hopefuly the benefit of all
Blessings
Taffy

[Paul Hazelwood]

Where do you find ANY scripture saying that the condemned are taken out of gehenna fire and integrated into the body of Christ after a limited time?  Are you utilizing Paul's intentionally twisted verses over Christ clear truth's?

Hi, peacetroll,  The issue that you raise definatly is not a simple one.  The first thing I will point out is that not all biblical truths are directly and literally stated in scripture.   For instance,  would you say that if I light a match and burn a piece of paper that I have proven God exists? Sounds rather silly huh?  Yet, what if I show you this verse?

Hebrews 12:29 "for our God is also a consuming fire."    Sounds simple enough, right?   

As far as Jesus speaking clear truths, not everything Jesus said was so clearly able to be understood.  Understanding is granted, it is not about "our"  power to comprehend.

Matthew 13:34  "All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them,"

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Who do you think controlled "but to them it is not given"?

Even the disciples had trouble understanding at times.

Matthew 15:15 - 16 "Now, answering, Peter said to Him,  "Decipher for us the parable. And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?"

I'm not sure if it will help, but despite your demand that someone point out a scripture based upon your own criteria, I will let scripture be the guide.

What you propose causes a contradiction.

1Corinthians 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.

If not all are to be reconciled, and some are to be destroyed, then the above verse cannot be true.

[Molly]

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

--John 1

[as many as] "received" [him]

G3880
παραλαμβάνω
paralambanō
par-al-am-ban'-o
From G3844 and G2983; to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).



G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).


We see here that the word 'received,' in Greek 'paralambano,' is not a passive verb.  It means to take hold from something that is near (para), to be active in the participation of receiving (lambano).  It also connotes an intimacy with that from which one is receiving, because it is near.  But, one must take the action of receiving it.  It is only then that one is given 'the right' to become children of God.





"the right" [to become sons of God]


G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


This is the barley harvest of passover, the firstfruits offered to God, the first resurrection  of the dead,  the white harvest which Jesus refers to in John 4.


John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


These are those who are born again of Spirit and offered to God as the sheaf offering.  These are the firstborn of many brothers, the firstfruits, the church of the firstborn (Christ).


22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Hebrews 12



These are being harvested all throughout this 'age.'  Like PT says, I do believe they are small in number, and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

At the end of the age, the wheat will be harvested.



37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. --Matthew 13



We see a few things here.  Jesus says, 'so shall it be in the end of this world.'  The word translated 'world' here really means 'age.'

"world"

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.



Thus, we are currently in an age where the barley is being harvested; and  the seeds are being planted, by the Christ and by the devil, producing two types of growth, wheat and tares, which are growing up side by side and look very much alike.  The owner of the field/world ('kosmos") is allowing both to grow to maturity, at which time the wheat will be harvested into his barn and the tares burned.  This is not the end of the story, but it will be the end of the age, which as far as I can tell, is the church age (or the Messianic age).  This is  the best of my understanding for now.


10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



--Revelation 22

[Peacetroll]

Molly, you are right on in understanding what I have been saying. In this age few there be that find the truth, those who called and chosen, elect. Not of themselves, but by the will of God.
 The Israel of God, are born from above, as John said, by the will of God, the workers in the field, both now and later.
 As for all dying in Adam, true, and all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ, the new Adam. If a human is not in Adam to begin with, he will not be in Christ at the end.

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[ This is all Adamic mankind]
 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[ These are His saints and elect, predestinated by the will of God, Jesus Christ, for no man comes to God except by Jesus Christ]

 I know it is hard to accept that the enemy did plant his own weeds in the field to destroy the crop.

 Have a great day.