Thrust Out

[Peacetroll]

Where do you find ANY scripture saying that the condemned are taken out of gehenna fire and integrated into the body of Christ after a limited time?  Are you utilizing Paul's intentionally twisted verses over Christ clear truth's?

Do you understand the spiritual definition of 'man'? or are you taking the earthy/orthodox definition and running with it?
 
Do you understand the real meaning of 'world' from the Most High God's standpoint? or are you understanding it to mean this planet?

 What makes you think the pronouncements of Jesus Christ, from His own mouth are negated by some odd feel good reinterpetation of other scriptures? Do you agree with the pharasees, and believe Jesus was a liar and a deciever?

Jesus said:
Matthew 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

 28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 7:
 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Note: destruction does not mean some temperary torment!  It means the end of your soul, also known as the 'second death'.

 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

As John the Babtist put it:
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

 Jesus put it in other verses. So many I won't bother using most them. You know what they are.

John 15:
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 Matthew 25:
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do you ignor everything spoken of for a man's private interpetation proclaiming a different gospel than Jesus preached?

 How do you explain this parable about the different ends of people Jesus gave.

Luke 16: 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead


John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Was Jesus lying in John 3:36

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Was Jesus lying in the above verse too?  If everyone enters the kingdom of heaven (the future universe described by John, in which he is the light forever, a place of pure joy, no pain or suffering or death), then Jesus is a liar, because he stated in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone shall enter this kingdom.  It's either one of two options:

1) Everyone enters the kingdom and Jesus is a lair (because he stated the opposite in the above verse).
2) Everyone does not enter the kingdom and Christ is true.


Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Jesus was speaking to the evil pharisaical priests who hated and wish to kill him and all who followed him.  Was he lying to them in when he told them they would not be allowed into the Kingdom of God?

Who among you will listen to Christ above all others?

Hell is a place of total destruction.

THose of you who believe souls will eventually be released from the metaphoric 'hell' that is prepared for Satan, his angels and the serpents in clay bodies (tares),  are once again NOT believing the truth Christ told:

Mark 9:
 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Some say the flames of hell (metaphor of death or destruction of the soul), will be quenched.

Why would you when Christ himself told you otherwise?  You either believe Christ, or you don't.

The lake of fire means to be destroyed.  See for yourself...

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

And how is death destroyed?

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The second death = Lake of fire = destroyed.

[martincisneros]

31. Now is come the judgment of this world.  Now the prince of this world is cast out.
32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself.
33. This He said indicating the type of death that He would die.
John 12:31-33

The type of death that He would die wasn't just the crucifixion, but it's everything He said about this death: the judgment of the world, the prince of this world being cast out, and the drawing of all men to Himself.  Why would He command the proclaiming of Good News to every creature unless it was actually Good News in the Great Commission??  Do a word study on the Greek Word translated "Gospel" in the "Authorized Version" and it's only used 3 or 4 times outside of and predating the Gospel Dispensation, and it means News that's too good to be true.  Few things besides UR constitute news that's too good to be true, but that's so good because IT IS TRUE

If some are saved and others find no place beyond condemnation in the way that the Apostle Thomas did, then how is that excessively good news?  It would still be the Mosaic dispensation of "survival of the fittest."  Is it not possible that any of Jesus' teachings, beyond the ones permitted to be as such by the "orthodox," -- is it possible that in no other passages than the ones that you accept as such that He'd of outlined WHY HE HAD TO DIE??  He gave Himself a ransom for the many who've found the broad way to destruction.  "The few" wouldn't have needed it, based upon everyone's acknowledgement of it being a foregone conclusion that they'd of come running and repenting to the Master.  But what about the hard cases?  Is He not the Great Physician, called "Doctor" by Luke 6 different times in his Gospel, although this is obscured by the "Authorized Version?  Did He not come to seek and to save the destroyed (mistranslated as "lost" by your AV)?  Is He not Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever?  When He returns will He be a different Jesus entirely from what we have in the 4 Gospels?  Will He no longer have compassion on the people and see them as sheep without a shepherd?  Will He Who rebuked the goats for not visiting the prisoners of this life follow in their example by leaving eternal prisoners forever unvisited?  Are yours really the glad tidings to all men that were announced by angels at His birth, Peacetroll?

So, Peacetroll, let me get this straight.  You're asserting that the casting of death into the Lake of Fire is the eternal affirmation of it over all of those who've died RATHER THAN it's destruction and the reversal of it's fruits?  No, Peacetroll, no.  The Lake of Fire is the death of death, which means life for all who've thus far known nothing but death. 

So, you're saying that sin will win out in the end over the Blood of Christ?  So, in the lives of many, He died in vain?  He wasn't more powerful than their sin??  Or are you of the Calvinist persuation that believes that His judgment isn't validated by Him getting what He wants, or in His validating the work of the Cross, but in Him bringing destruction to that which Christ died for?

Were you ever under the wrath of God?  Were you ever an unbeliever?  Were you ever a child of wrath?  Were you ever a stranger to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world?  Then by your own testimony, those upon whom the wrath of God abides can see life

[Peacetroll]

He gave Himself a ransom for the many who've found the broad way to destruction.  "The few" wouldn't have needed it, based upon everyone's acknowledgement of it being a foregone conclusion that they'd of come running and repenting to the Master

First, your interpretation of 'man' is orthodox and aligns with every human beings understanding, it's an easy description to hold to, but not necessarily the correct one., but you need to research more and hopefully God will enlighten you as to the true 'spiritual' definition of a man.

Now, all were doomed to destruction unless he ransomed himself. 

Isaiah 59:16
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

 As for Jesus giving His life for the sins of the world, that is quite true. He will save those who believe in this dispensation from being in danger of the second death during the rule of Christ and the saints for a thousand years. The time when the angels, meaning the saints, seperate the wheat from the tares. Just as prophesied!

Malachi 3
 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

That 'messenger' was John the Baptist.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Malachi also described what Jesus emphasized in Matthew 13:30..

 Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

 17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

 18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

The righteous = wheat.  The wicked = tares.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is the reign of Christ spoke of by John in the above verse that is the same time that Jesus spoke of as the seperation of the wheat from the tares and that Malachi spoke of in 3:16 (the seperation of the righteous from the wicked).

As for your reasoning

"The few" wouldn't have needed it

, I beg to differ.

Without Christ, there would be no narrow gate (for he is the narrow gate).  Jesus simply pointed out the truth, ...few there be that will truely believe in him and therefore find salvation. 

 Without Christ there would be no 'few' in the gate, because he is the gate.  as he spoke.

John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The idea that the 'few' did'nt need Christ for salvation (to enter the Kingdom of Heaven) has no logical nor scriptural support.

[martincisneros]

Nice try, if you're going to quote me, at least give the entire quote:

"The few" wouldn't have needed it, based upon everyone's acknowledgement of it being a foregone conclusion that they'd of come running and repenting to the Master.

[Peacetroll]

There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood.

How can there be a 'few' in the gate with no gate?  Remember, no man can come to Christ without God/He drawing them.  Those who are in the gate (or in Christ) are drawn by him, not of their own consious choosing.   

 Hebrews 9

 8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.  

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Without Christ, nobody nowhere nohow could enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (he is the door to that kingdom).

[martincisneros]

Then you do believe in the finished work of the Cross!!  I'm sorry, Peacetroll.  I was under the impression that you were of the belief that the Cross would ultimately fail in a single life somewhere, sometime, because their sins were too weighty for the Son of God to bare away.  As He has drawn us to Himself, we may joyfully expect with joy inexpressible and full of glory that He'll likewise draw absolutely all men unto Himself, according to the type of death that He said in John 12 that He would die

[Peacetroll]

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I believe Christ.  And Christ came to save the wheat and burn the tares.  There is no failure in this.  What you deem failure is actually the mission.  He has no intention of saving the tares, for they are of their father the devil, they can not nor ever will change, they hate goodness and life and mercy. 

When you claim that all lives will be saved, you understand not that without Christ in you, you have no life to save.  What is the difference between a dog and a human?  Not much without Christ.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Hebrews 2:

 10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

The expulsion of Satan, his angels and the vessels that carry his spirit and breath is victory, not failure.

Those who are not of Jesus are of Satan, and they have no life in them and are spiritually dead.  They are not his, nor ever will be.

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

[martincisneros]

The expulsion of Satan, his angels and the vessels that carry his spirit and breath is victory, not failure.

Were this the extent of His will, He could have done all of that without unifying Himself with all of mankind through the Incarnation and then taking their sins upon Himself at the Cross.  All of mankind, according to Colossians 1, were in Christ before they were in Adam.  Romans 5, 1Corinthians 15, 2Corinthians 5, and 1Timothy 2 all declare that the death that Jesus died was the recovery of all of mankind.  When Adam died, all men died; when Christ died, all men were given life.  The work of Christ, in Romans 5, isn't like the work of the first Adam because no one can come along later and undo the work of Christ.  It was once for all.

[martincisneros]

Why withhold your views of man and of the world, if you believe that your spiritualizations of both are so foundational to refuting the Biblical message of the Universal Restoration?

[jabcat]

If the wheat is/was/will always be the wheat, and if a tare is/was/will always be a tare, then what's the actual intent of a) telling anyone about Christ/preaching salvation, b) teaching obedience/seeking first the kingdom (if a tare can't become wheat or if a wheat's already guaranteed the full inheritance), and c) even having these discussions along these lines?  What would be gained if I were to be convinced that some were simply "dogs" without any hope, or if I were convinced the "dogs" would actually be annihilated?  Would it just serve the purpose of the wheat feeling better that even the "dogs" saw the wheat was right, and/or is it just a point of something to argue about?

 So, bottom line, to you Brother PT, what's your personal motivation wrt to these wheat/tare/annihilation threads?  Is it to convince UR believers we are wrong, and if so, to what end?  Thanks for helping me understand that, because honestly, it appears to me that thread after thread, these discussions are circular and do they really get anybody anywhere? .  James.

[Peacetroll]

 None of you have told me why what Jesus said is annuled by what one of the apostles said in his cryptic letters, some of which he did not write, as he ascerted by saying he signed all 'his' epistles with his own hand. Jesus was specific in His mission, it's cause and it's result from the beginning of His work on earth.
 Every parable, and every outright statement were to the point, and yet all He professed is replaced with a theory contrary to all He said.

John 12: 44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


 Paul's ministry was to the gentiles, that there might be an elect called and chosen from among all the countries on earth. He did the job admirably, being a deciever, yet truthfull,
that the vast majority , hearing, would not hear, and would drop out of the race, and build his house of faith on sand.
 As I have shown you, Paul was rejected by the churches he founded when they heard what was taught by the original 12 apostles. I'll put up the clue again. He even warned what would happen.

2 Timothy 4
 1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. [/b]

2 Timothy 2:8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

 9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 And finally his description of his rejection by his own churches.

2 Timothy 4:9Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:

 10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

 11Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

 12And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.

 13The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

 14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

 15Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

 16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.  

17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

[jabcat]

Context.  Jesus explicitly said about His earthly ministry that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  IMO, He was talking, in context, to the Jewish nation/religious leaders that were about to lose their position of inheritance when the gospel would then go to the Gentiles...but only temporarily...because in the end, scripture states "all Israel will be saved".  Paul's ministry was then mainly toward us Gentiles, those grafted in.  There is no contradiction if scripture is taken in context, to whom things were being said, and why.

Now, PT, would you answer my question, or is this as some have said, not really about dialogue, but just about trying to prove some point?  Which again, IMO, seems to just go around in circles, thread after thread.  What is the purpose?  Maybe you just have the need to share your thoughts, which is understandable?  Evangilization, for the sake of argument, what? At some point, I personally won't continue some fruitless, pointless argument, if that's all it is.

Thanks, James.

P.S.  I would think calling Paul and his teachings deception (so much of the NT not being God-breathed?) would be textual criticism?

[Peacetroll]

 Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, and all Israel shall be saved, but not all who are called Israel are included.
 Paul gave you the enigma of having to rightly divide the word of truth. For the elect's sake.

Romans 9:5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Paul knew Israel was infested with Indumeans and Kenites, as the scripture below states.

 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 Why do you think this was written?

Acts 2:46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 Do you really think what Jesus preached to the jews was ONLY for the jews to hear???
Better reflect on the following scriptures, understand why Paul was sent to the gentiles.

John 10:15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 You seem to disregard what He said for what you think others said was the gospel of Jesus Christ. That message is the freeing of Adam's children from the valley of the shadow of Death, and the elimination of children of that Death, who are the tools used for the destruction of Man.Jesus called them vipers, vipers are deaf. They will never hear His word.

John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Who's word will we be judged by when this is over? Jesus Christ's words at the judgement seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
This is the dividing of sheep and goats, as Jesus said, the wheat and the tares.

 Why would you disregard His direct words?

[jabcat]

PT, you quote Paul to attempt to prove your points, although "Paul can't be trusted"?   It's ironic you suggest I may be disregarding scripture, when I've in fact said there are no discrepancies in scripture when taken in context.  Oh, well, I don't know that there's a whole lot new here, and I'm not going to chase my tail.

If someone else likes to ride on a merry-go-round they're welcome to it, but I get dizzy so choose not to ride.  In fact, I don't even like to watch...but I still believe you're my brother  . (Holy smooch).

God works all things according to the counsel of His will.

[jabcat]

Oh man, I just saw the following thread title in the "Users Online" section and thought for a second that someone was after me about my last post to PT....The thread title is "You are not allowed to kiss him... Or go to hell!"  Whew, it was just someone looking at that thread...got my attention though...

[Peacetroll]

Jabber, jabber, jabber, I give you many scriptures you give me jabber. I quote Paul because you think you know what he was saying. The things that happened between him and the churches he established for the way he made the gospel obtruce have no reason for any forger to produce. It does not push an agenda that would benefit either the pharasees, or the catholic church, nor secular powers.
 Did you know that the US gov. has recruited pastors to go around if they suspend the constitution, and round up citizens, to calm the populace for them using Paul's supposed quote:

Romans 13
 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

 Do you believe any secular power is a minister of God???? Would Paul have called them ministers of God??? They are given their power by the enemy over this world.

Still no answer about disregarding the word of Jesus for some other message.

[willieH]

Jabber, jabber, jabber, I give you many scriptures you give me jabber.

Listen to who is talking... Dusty...

You NEVER respond to others... 

...willieH 

[martincisneros]

Hi WillieH

That's pretty much the case, but then again what do you expect from someone who rejects half of the New Testament?  Peacetroll rejects the authenticity of Paul's letters, as though Peacetroll had 100% proof of who wrote the 4 Gospels and Revelation.  Personally, I trust Paul the most because I can find every single statement of his in the 4 Gospels and in the Old Testament.  I did that in the early 90s after I'd memorized Paul's epistles.  Word for Word Old Testament and the 4 Gospels.

[willieH]

The second death = Lake of fire = destroyed.

THIS is the LAKE OF FIRE... and YES, the FLESH of ALL shall be DESTROYED in that DEATH!

And YOU are on this LIST Dusty:

(Rev 21:8)  But the FEARFUL, and UNBELIEVING, and the ABOMINABLE, and MURDERERS and SORCERERS, an IDOLATORS, and ALL LIARS, ...SHALL:

HAVE THEIR PART ...in... the LAKE which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the 2nd DEATH...

YOU and I and ALL human beings are on this list Dusty...

The FIRST death is in the SPIRIT which ALL MEN have experienced and which CHRIST died to REDEEM us FROM... CHRIST noted those who were living but NOT CONVERTED and DRAWN by GOD, as DEAD...

The SECOND death is that which MAN is appointed to DIE HIMSELF... from which NO REDEMPTION is provided... 

...willieH 

[jabcat]

Is you, or is you ain't my brother?  If so, don't be so unkind.  If not, then I understand...any wolf bares their teeth when the sheepskin's pulled back and they're pushed into a corner.  I don't really believe that's you though, because you're a lot more obvious than those who quietly slip into the sheep's midst. 

You know that carnival tune where things are going 'round, and 'round, and 'round?  It's playing now. 

And that's Jabcat, Jabcat, Jabcat...not sure where you got the 'jabber'.  I kind'a like it though. That can be the name for my alter ego, the mean one...as in, "I sho' jabbed'em that time."

And seriously now, "Jesus, savior of all men...charge these things and teach." 

[martincisneros]

Peacetroll, every single -- and I do mean each and every -- destruction passage has an accompanying Restoration passage, even if you don't know where it's at.  I won't do all of your Bible studying for you, but here's a few to at least hopefully tweak you about looking for the Restoration in the Bible.  You've found the destruction in the Bible, and we're in perfect agreement about that. 

All of it.

YES WE ARE!! 

But you've prematurely stopped scrutinizing the Scriptures.  I challenge you to look for the Restoration.

The Bible says that it is appointed to men once to die, and after that the judgment (Heb. 9:27-28). It does not say after death all hope is gone! Thus, we see that: 

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)—until—God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez. 16:53-55);

 Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

 The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord "will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53);

 Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

 An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"—
until—the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3);

 Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is—until—they "were shattered" (Hab. 3:6);

 The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be "perpetual"—until—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13); 

 God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

 Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

 "Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);

 Israel's judgment lasts "forever"—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

 So, narrow is the way to life and few find it—until—Christ and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28);

 God is now calling out "a people for His name"—an "elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—until—the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first born, the beginning—until—in all (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1:18).

 All manner of sin will be forgiven in this age as well as in the age (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit—until—such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).

 God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost"
(1 Thess. 2:16). So there is a gulf between "the rich man in purple" (Royal Covenant "Son", Israel) and the saved gentiles (Lazarus) which no man can cross—until—Christ Himself crosses it to bring His promised restoration. For again, Scripture promises that ALL Israel will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).

 Christ's fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is "faithful". He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost—until—the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).

 So, Christ will say to unrighteous nations, "Depart from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting" (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning. That is—until—by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, all nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of ALL the nations will be BLESSED (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46). For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with Abraham means that ALL will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, ALL scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment must be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They are "everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and on-going—until—God's judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite all creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Gehenna's fires are not quenched and its worm does not die—until—the restoration of all things which has been spoken of by all God's holy prophets (Christ included) since the world began. For our Savior did not come to contradict His own prophets. Our Good Shepherd and Faithful Deliverer came to fulfill the law and the prophets! Thus our Lord does not cast off forever (Lam. 3:31-32, Heb. 13:8). He who taught us to forgive and bless our enemies will surely do the same for His. For every tongue will give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. All flesh will bless His name forever and ever! For our Lord will not fail or become discouraged until He fulfills all of God's purpose, word and will. For He tells us that everyone will be "seasoned" with fire (Matt. 5:17, Mark 9:42-49, Acts 3:21).

Those who disobey the gospel and persecute Christians will be repaid with "everlasting" (that is, continuous) tribulation, destruction and punishment—until—by such persistent correction God shows them their need for Christ. So what is written in the prophets will come to pass, that all shall be taught of God, and everyone who has heard and learned from the Father (eventually) comes to Christ. Thus, all the families of the nations will remember Him and worship before Him. And all will submit to Him and sing His praise. So God's promise will be fulfilled that ALL men shall reverence Him, proclaim His works, and wisely consider His doing (Ps. 22:27-28, 64:4-5, 64:9, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Paul the apostle understood the "forever until" principle at work in God's redemptive judgments. He knew the heart of God, and Paul also knew God's will, purpose and plan. His knowledge of God's character, will and purpose governed his understanding of Scripture. That is why Paul could appear to contradict the prophet David! Have a look at Romans 11:9-12 (NIV), where David prophesies: May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see and their backs be bent forever.

And observe how Paul responds: Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to make Israel envious. For if their transgression means RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for the gentiles—how much greater riches will their (Israel's) fullness bring?

Wow . . . ! In the next three verses Paul assures us:  that Israel's fall is the reconciliation of the world;

 that Israel's fall will be (for them and all the world) life from the dead! (Ez. 37);

 that because the FIRST fruit (Israel) is holy, the whole world ("lump" or "harvest field") is holy.

Read all of Romans chapter eleven, and the Scriptures will clearly speak for themselves. Practice reading all of God's Word in light of His character, commitment, purpose and reliable good pleasure and will. Get God's "forever until" policy of judgment settled in your heart—and get ready! You are about to embark upon a love affair with our Heavenly Father that will transform your life. His heart will heal and transform your heart! For of Him and through Him—and to Him—are ALL things! (Romans 11:36) Yourself included. For again, we must remember, our Savior did not come to contradict the words of His own prophets. He came to fulfill them.

Until the heart of God and the will of God become the foundational factors determining our understanding of Scripture, our "gospel" will be bad news—not good. "God is Love, but" is simply not the message the Holy Spirit is conveying to us in the Bible (1 John 4:10,14).

[Peacetroll]

Jabber,jabber, jabber, you reject the words of Jesus and say ALL of Pauls writings are the way you should go. I do not reject all of Paul's letters, I know he was having a hard time while he was alive stopping phoney letters in his name from judaising his churches. Later many aditions were added by the Augustinians to push their agenda on the gentiles.
 YOU are willingly ignorant of the words of Christ, to further your error, which says there is  no difference between children of God, and children of this world, and that Jesus spoke the words He spoke for the wind. That what you think an apostle said trumps Jesus Christ- the living GOD.
 What foolish sheeple you appear to be.

[martincisneros]

So, you're saying that if grace does not, judgment cannot, save man. How can damnation perfect those whom salvation has not helped ? Can hell do more for us than heaven? What more could God do for us, that He has not done for us? (Puseys Sermon, pp. 9, 10.)

The answer to this lies simply in what has been said elsewhere on this website, as to the reason why the way of life for us must be through judgment. We are held captive by a lie. One part of that lie is that we are as Gods. The remedy for this is to show us that we are ruined creatures. Till we believe or know this, we cannot return to God. Judgment, therefore, to show us what we are, is as needful as the grace which meets the other part of the serpent's lie, and shows what God is. Therefore God kills to make alive. Therefore He turns man to destruction, that He may say, Return, ye children of men. Therefore He delivers even Christians to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, that so they may learn what grace has not taught them. If we want further examples, Nebuchadnezzar shows us how judgment does for man what goodness cannot. Loaded with gifts, through self-conceit he loses his understanding. The remedy is to make him as a beast. Then as a beast he learns what as a man he had not learnt. (Dan. 4:29-34.) Let the nature of the fall be seen, and the reason why we are only saved through judgment is at once manifest. Grace saves none but those who are condemned; nor till we have felt "the ministry of death and condemnation" do we fully know "the ministry of life and righteousness."

The firstfruits from Christ to us are proofs, that by death, and thus alone, is our salvation perfected. Unbelievers, who will not die with Christ, are lost, because they are not judged here. God cannot do more than He has done for man. Law and Gospel are His two covenants. But why may not the Lord, seeing that He is " Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, to-day, and for the ages," by the ministry of death and condemnation in another world do for those, who have not here received it, that same work of judgment to salvation, which in the firstfruits is accomplished in this present world? Blessed be His name, we know He will subdue all things unto Himself; and though our sin can turn His blessings into curses, He can no less turn curses into blessings, by that same power which through death destroys the power of death.

[martincisneros]

So you're claiming that this doctrine gives up God's justice; (Cazenoves Essay, pp. 22-24.) for if all are saved, there will be no difference between St. Peter and Nero, virgins and harlots, saints and sinners. (Jerome, on Jonah 3:6-7; quoted from Huets Origeniana, in Puseys Sermon, p.29)

This again is misapprehension or worse. God's justice is given up, because He saves by judgment. The conclusion is absurd; but it arises from the common notion, that we are saved by Christ from death, instead of by it and out of it. What Scripture teaches is, that man is saved through death; that the elect, being first quickened by the word, and then judging themselves or being judged in this world, (1Cor. 11:31-32) by a death to sin are freed from Satan; that others, not so dying to sin, remain in the life and therefore under the curse and power of the dark world, and are therefore delivered to Satan to be punished, to know, since they will not believe, their fall, and their need of God's salvation. But all this simply asserts the justice of God, that if men will not be judged here, they must be in the coming world.

You think that no distinction is made between St. Peter and Nero, virgins and harlots, saints and sinners. This is not only untrue,--for is there no distinction between reigning with Christ and being cast out and shut up in hell with Satan?--but is too like the murmur of the Elder Son at his brother's return, (Luke 15:29-30) to need any answer with those who know their own hearts. It is the old objection of the Pharisee and Jew, who thought God's truth would fail if sinners of the Gentiles shared their good things; an objection deeply rooted in the natural heart, which is slow to believe that an outwardly pure and blameless life needs as much the blood of the cross as the most depraved and open sinner. The objection only shows where they are who urge it; and whatever support it may seem to have from a part of God's Word,--as a part of God's Word, taken against the rest, seemed to justify the Jew, and was indeed the very ground on which he rejected the call of the Gentiles,--more light will show that it rests on partial views, and on a systematic disregard of all those truths of Scripture, which are beyond the dispensation. Some day we shall see, that "all have come short," (Rom. 3:23) that as to sin and failure "there is no difference between the Jew and Greek," (Rom. 10:12) that the elect are "by nature children of wrath, even as others," (Eph. 2:3) that if saved at all, first or last we must be "saved by grace;" (Eph. 2:8) and this truth will justify all God's ways, "who hath concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all." (Rom. 11:32)

[reFORMer]

  Are you utilizing Paul's intentionally twisted verses over Christ clear truth's?

The wolf in sheep's clothing may bare his teeth when the sheep's clothing is drawn back; but when his near relative, the sheep dog, sees and hears things like the quote from peacetroll above he sees red, gets an infusion of adrenalin and a feeling like a rat terrier must feel when it sniffs and sees a rat.  Does anybody see the fangs?  Do you feel a hot breath on the back of your neck peacetroll?

On the other hand, martincisneros, your last 2 posts (#22, and #23) carry me to the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God.  I'm intoxicated with the vivacious draft of water of life!

---JMR