Author Topic: Hell.  (Read 2485 times)

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V.I.D.

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Hell.
« on: August 08, 2008, 04:56:03 AM »
In this article i state that I WILL KEEP THE VIEW that all people are saved and that after death God's love will restore every single thing and that He willl not leave even one creature to non ending tourment ,or to unbearable tourment and that He will bring every creature to Himself . EVERY !
That is my belief..that God is LOVE and love is stronger than enything and it brings good to all ..

Now what i wanna do is post some absolutely groosme thoughts that will be absolutely against universalism and will be very disturbing ...DO NOT VIEW IF FEELING BAD !!!

Now i wanna state the reason as to why in the world i post this :
It is becouse EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS BELIEF STATES THAT SIMPLE RULE ...
EVEN THE MAYA CIVILISATION BELIEVED IN IT THIS WAY : ::::

The ones that are good go to a place where they will be hapy and well and live . this place is called heaven .
The ones that are the bad guys ,go where ? Go to a place UNDER THE EARTH or FULL OF FIRE ,where they are TOURTURED in a horrible kind of ways...and i meen TOURTURED !HORIBLY !

That simple principle is something that is stuck in my mind for as long as i looked in to religiouse beliefs .
No matter what belief ,no matter where and in what part of the world .It is all the same ..

If you make the right choise then you are ok and live like a god ,but if you make the wrong one ,then you will be PUNISHED WITH TOURMENT THAT IS MORE HORRIBLE THAN ENYTHING .

In all of those systems there is only one single rule ..the winner takes it all ..the looser has to fall ..

Or more properly ...the loser has to be TOURMENTED . And in a very AWFUL way sooner or later .

There is always a reason for someone somewhere in some way to eat the big pain pill that will TOURMENT the guy ..
There are ALL SORTS OF REASONS ...
There are good reasons..
holly reasons ..
bad reasons ..
but in some way this is made something normal and cool and awsome, or something bad ,but needed or realy necesarry .
Tourment ,tourment ,tourment .

IN EVERY SYSTEM I SEE IT AND IN EVERY SIYSTEM AND RELIGION IT IS NORMAL TO BE PUT FOR WHATEVER REASON IN SOME KIND OF A HORRIBLE AND UNSPEAKABLE TOURMENT IN WHATEVER WAY !

Look at Christianity ..Islam ..and even Maya religion .
where do you see a place where there is no such thing as hell ? In every religion it is justified by some way that people should be tourmented in various of ways and tourtured horribly !

So no matter what kind of thinkings i think off ...no matter in what ways i think ...no matter in what ways i live ..there will always be HELL .
And if not for me ,then for someone else to scream in agony .

So is universalism right ? Not offcourse (remember i am role playing )

EVERY RELIGION IS AGAINST WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN ( i am still role playing )
Every scripture of hell is not by your faith ( i am role playing )


And now for the finaly i wanna state that even if everyone gets saved ..some will be tourmented forever . Becouse not everyone's soul will be saved ,but they will be saved only from sin .

And many universalists will be drawn to accepting people's tourment after they see God,becouse He is so righteous that they will not be able to say no to His truth and the other part of humanity will be damned in hell ,for either 100y ,or 1000y ,or forever .Being in tourment ,but saved from the wages of their sins, which are death .


WHY IS THERE IN EVERY RELIGION A HELL AND YOU DONT BELIEVE IN IT ? HOW CAN YOU DISPROOVE IT WHEN IT IS SAID THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST MADE TO BE SAVED, BUT TOURMENTED IN AN AWFUL WAY OR FOREVER TORMENTED?
So now its up to you !

Disproove every single thing i said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have had it with the hell doctrines in most of world"s religions and i want to hear is there someone who can realy disproove the horrible HELL ?









Gabe Grinstead

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Re: Hell.
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 09:22:35 PM »
Quote
I have had it with the hell doctrines in most of world"s religions and i want to hear is there someone who can realy disproove the horrible HELL ?

One only needs to use simply logic to refute the claims of hell, at least on a realistic level.  Lets turn this into a little math game.

There are 6 billion people total in the world.

2 billion of them are Islam and they believe the other 4 billion are damned to eternity in hell because they do not believe in Allah

2 billion of them Christians and they believe the other 4 billion are damned to eternity in hell because they do not believe in Jesus

2 billion of them are ______ and they believe the other 4 billion are damned to entenity in hell because they do not beleve in _____

Suppose all were correct, who would then be in hell? Everyone.  So that is the answer, my friend, is that everyone will be in Hell.  If you would suggest only 1 is correct, then we have nothing more than lottery, so why would you worry? This isn't black jack where you can play the odds and count the deck, as this would be pure guesswork since we don't actually know the rules of the game, or how many cards are in the deck.

What am I getting at here? The entire idea of Hell is ludicrious.  Punishment, no - as that serves a purpose in the end.  But the pegan hell would serve no purpose.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell.
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 09:37:13 PM »
Gabe,

It's even worse. Or simpler as you wish.
What about all those people that never heard about God? After Jesus died the word of God started to spread over the earth. But before that the knowledge of the existance of God was quite 'local'.......
All doomed because they where born in the wrong part of the earth....?
Just doesn't make any sense.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline studier

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Re: Hell.
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 11:26:42 PM »
Quote from: Gabe Grinstead
Suppose all were correct, who would then be in hell? Everyone.  So that is the answer, my friend, is that everyone will be in Hell.

Psalm 49:10-15
For one can see that wise men die; the foolish and the senseless also pass away. Then they leave their wealth to others.
Their graves are their eternal homes, their homes from generation to generation, though they have named estates after themselves.
But despite assets, man will not last; he is like the animals that perish.
This is the way of those who are arrogant, and of their followers, who approve of their words.
Selah
Like sheep they are headed for Sheol; Death will shepherd them. The upright will rule over them in the morning, and their form will waste away in Sheol, far from their lofty abode. But God will redeem my life  from the power of Sheol, for He will take me.

Psalm 89:47-48
Remember what my span of life is; For what vanity You have created all the sons of men!
What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.

1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Everyone goes to Sheol, until the Lord raises them up from Sheol.

Revelation 20:13
The Sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades (Sheol) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

martincisneros

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Re: Hell.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 01:26:55 AM »
What am I getting at here? The entire idea of Hell is ludicrious.  Punishment, no - as that serves a purpose in the end.  But the pegan hell would serve no purpose.
What do you mean by the pagan Hell?

V.I.D.

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Re: Hell.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 04:58:10 AM »
Well The concern is that all religions have the idea of hell .
And hell is the most awfull thing that would happen to a person and they variate ..
It is a place either of anihilation or destruction or tourment or ..you know.. something bad .
But it is in EVERY religion .. BUT WHY ?
Why everywhere ? why do even the earlyest religions have it ?

I can only believe that in God such things as tourments and destructions and stuff..dissapear becouse God is not such a thing . But without destruction there is no tourment ,so a version of hell afterword would sound ...STUPID to me .
Some say that there should be punishment ..BUT WHY NOT REVIVEMENT ?Punishment ?
And they will go in to everlasting destruction * .. such things can make a person go besark .
They spoil everything . They leave a person with no ground to proove that he is right and leave him without enything else ,but the hope that such things are not true .

And another thing is ..some believe that there will be a hell for people and the devil ,but they will be
tourtured for 10000 years or 5000 years or 100 years .. I cant even imagine the very sorce of life and good ...God ..to tourment enyone so long, or let people to be tourmented so long .

In the wild of our planet the system is always like this ... someone by some reason has to be destroyed ..tortured ..killed ..or ..whatsoever evil to be done to him .. There are holly reasons ,or other reasons ,but there are always reasons for DESTRUCTION of someone and for good to someone else .

But i hate this system . I  mean ..isnt God something higher than this ? Arent we something more precious for him instead of a thing to kill and destroy ,just becouse of His own will .. I know His will is the best ,but this makes it to look like the will of animals or humans . It makes Him look too primitive .
If you dont fit ,or dont do this and that ,or be like that ,or fit in my system ,or (always a reason ) ,then you have to be tourmented in an awfull way and put in big destruction . That sucks !
Isnt love more powerfull than this . ?
What power is there in implementing destruction ? Power is to inlive ,to save ,to heal ,but to destroy ?
I think that destruction is only a power considered as such by the WILD . By this world .
I dont see it in love .Even if love destroys evil ,it doesnt destroy it by killing a person neither by tourmenting him ,becouse tourment is conected to the process of destruction which leads to death . But love cant kill ! It inlives ,it heals !
Am i the one that got a bad understanding of love ?

Then why is there even in the maya religion ..a hell ?
A civilisation on the other side of the world ..and they believe in tha same way ??? wt ?
That is so strange . All religions have the fiery hell ,or most of them ?No matter where they are . WHY ??


Now i will disproove hell's idea. I can ! After being in tention for a long time ,i have no choice exept to do it .

Now ...
Lets start with the fact that in this idea there will be UNENDING DESTRUCTION .
1 .Using simple reason ,that one expires ..Its imposible ! Destruction is a simple procces .
Its taking a puzzle (let the puzzle be a creature ) and then tearing it apart . That is destruction .
It can not last forever ,becouse sooner or later it will do its cause ..destroy the thing . So it can not be  endless .
2. Destruction can not be achieved forever if it is never full as it says in the bible. Becouse it can not continue forever and at the same time never destroy someone in full. Why ? Becouse destruction means *tearing apart * *breaking the individual * ..But if you start to break, break, break someone, he will sooner or later ..DIE ! For him to not die ,then the procces has to be stopped at some point and then continued . This must be done, so that the individual might recover to some extent ,so that he might not die and then start to be destroyed again .. But then destruction will not be everlasting and ever full at the same time !!

ITS ILLOGICAL !

But then why is it in the Bible and in many other religions and even in the american ones ??
WHY ? The big question .
But whenever i try to proove this and believe that God will indeed free everyone and that His love has nothing to do with such pagan ideas of tourment ..then i have no soil to proove it ! Becouse every religion is this way . And i am left only for hoping and being miserable . And as much as i try, i cant accept it.
To me we are all one creation and deserve one thing ..LOVE. If one person should get it then the other should.Why is it said ..love your brother more than yourself and the ones who hate you? And if the reason by which someone has to be put to tourment in awfull ways is stronger than love ? Then what is love ? Is love to tourment someone ?

I remember someone saying that god can create you ,so that he may break you to peaces . It might sound reasonable to some ,but do you know how it feels to be broken in pieces ? Do you know how it hurts to see how some are priviledged to get all the good stuff and glory and you the small and the low are standing on your knees and being in pain ?
What if this was God and you were in hell and you were there to stay for a long time . And all the saints are up there having their palms in hands being in delight while you are in unspeakable agony ?
Istn it enough that all your bad deeds on earth are gonna dissapear some day in the dust the same way that hitler s empire was broken and all of his mad works are now for him to be heathen ?
Those people to me are not strong . They are weak ! They can destroy ,but since there is life beyound death ,then their power is nothing ! They have not achieved a thing . Is that not a just repayment of the works of those man ? Or should they be tourtured afterwords in an even worse way by God..who by the way you clame to be love of unspeakable kind !?

What can i say ..I dont wanna be a saint becouse p preffer to be unhapy and tourmented than a person with great joy ,but in my feet to see others in pain . I want it inlive ,to revive ,to inpower .
Give power to the powerless,make the weak be strong , make the unhapy happy ,clean the evil and free them from the lies and make them happy . But not to see them in my feet being in agony just as i was in the old days in the feet in agony ,in the feet of those who had more power ..

I am EXTREAMLY sorry for making such a violent post as this one and so crazy one ,but i was mad and did  not know how to express myself . Hope this second reply will help you guys understand me better .
And Thank you for your replays .

martincisneros

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Re: Hell.
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2008, 06:22:58 AM »
Hi V.I.D.,

The Bible does not have anything remotely good to say about other ancient religions.  Not one good thing.  So, number 1, stop worrying about what other religions teach when the Bible specifically condemns them.  Number 2, the Bible correctly translated, rightly divided, and Holy Spirit revealed says absolutely ZERO about unending torments and permanent destruction.  Why the bad translations then?  God said in Isaiah 55 that His ways were not the ways of the religious and His thoughts were not the thoughts of the religious, so He commanded them to forsake their thoughts and to take His -- and they haven't yet!  Why threaten in the book of Revelation to add to people the plagues that are described in the book if they added to His Words if no religious leaders were ever going to add to the teachings of the Apostles in the way that St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and the Reformers have? 

2Corinthians 4 says that Satan blinds unbelievers lest they should believe the glorious gospel and be saved.  And then it goes on to say that the things that are seen are temporary and the things that are not seen are age-lasting, or in other words, the blindness wouldn't last forever.  Jesus said that there is nothing hidden that won't be revealed, neither was anything kept secret but that it should be known abroad.  1Timothy 2 calls the truth about Jesus Christ being the ransom for all men a testimony that will be given in due season.  If it was a testimony to be given in due time, then obviously St. Paul was indicating that some blindness to that truth would continue for some time after his ministry in the earth was completed. 

Why does Hell exist in the minds of religous people?  For the same reason as adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, and killing exists in the hearts of religious people.  It's part of the sin nature that hasn't yet been cleansed out by a renewed consciousness to the finished work of Christ and all that He's accomplished through His Blood.  Ephesians 1:7-10 and Colossians 1:15-20 are very clear that He's saved the whole world through His Blood.  Yet people prefer the teachings and traditions of vengeance rather than the teachings of the Apostles regarding Christ's mercy upon all that we're to be partakers of and sharers of with the whole world.  To ask why the doctrine of Hell continues with religious people is the same thing as asking why men still doubt.  They doubt because they continue to keep their eyes on something other than the Word. 

You're transformed into what you keep looking at, as Abraham, Sarah, Moses, the prophets, and the Apostles discovered throughout the Bible.  Jesus told the Pharisees that He was ministering to that they'd made the Word of God of none effect in their lives through their traditions.  They didn't care what the Word taught, what it created or recreated, because they'd always been taught something else and that's what they preferred to the Word of God.  It's the same thing today when it comes to Hell and teachings on eternal destruction.  People want to devise means by which Jesus Christ never really took away the sin of the world, and why He can be the Saviour of the world without ever really saving the world. 

This really does come down to whether you're going to have more respect for what Jesus and the Apostles taught or whether you're going to care more about the traditions of fallen men who are setting aside His Word in favor of their traditions with which they try to maintain having the favor of politicians, other people of influence, and people with money instead of having the favor of God.  You sound like you're trying to believe both: what some Church teaches and what the Bible teaches, as though there were some way of reconciling the two.  You'll drive yourself completely crazy trying to believe both 'cause they'll never mix.  They're like oil and water.  They won't combine, and the finished work of Jesus Christ is the ultimate truth and the only truth in all of existance worth knowing, sharing, and living for.