Author Topic: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25  (Read 7940 times)

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Offline FineLinen

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The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« on: November 28, 2007, 11:20:13 PM »
ON the SHEEP and the GOATS

A response to the article by A.E.Knoch concerning Matt. 25:31-46.

First of all, it seems to me that the passage in view is the conclusion of a body of the sayings of Jesus, begun in ch. 24:3 when "the disciples came to Him privately."  The CLNT, and rightly so, I think, puts this entire passage in quotes.  Then ch. 26:1 indicates a break, or a change of context, with the words, "when Jesus finishes all these sayings."
Immediately prior to this Jesus had spoken words against the scribes and Pharisees in ch. 23, ending that discourse speaking of their undergoing the judging of Gehenna (vs. 33), and then speaking of Jerusalem as a whole (vs. 37-39) saying, "left is your house to you desolate."  Note that here He spoke of many times wanting to assemble them "in the manner a hen is assembling her brood under her wings."  That would have been an assembling for care and protection.  But this was not to be.

Instead we see the prediction of the demolishing of the buildings of the sanctuary, which we all know happened in A.D. 70.  Instead of an assembling as a brood, we see the prediction of their fleeing and taking flight (ch. 24:16-21).  Did this not also occur?  I am wondering if "the consummation" spoken of in 24:14 was speaking of "the end" of their system of worship, with the destruction of the sanctuary and of Jerusalem .  By this time the evangel of the kingdom had been heralded in that whole inhabited area.  But to press this point is not the intent of this letter.

From 24:23 to the end of the chapter Jesus gives various descriptions and characteristics regarding "the presence of the Son of Mankind."  Vs. 31 speaks again of an assembling through the use of messengers with a trumpet (a figure of a "message").  This assembling is of His people.

In vs. 37-42 we see examples of the suddenness of His judgment.  The chapter ends with an example of His coming "in an hour which you are not supposing" (vs. 44), and "on a day for which he is not hoping and in an hour which he knows not" (vs.50).  I suggest that in all of these, He is referring to coming to His people.  In the days of Noah there was not yet the distinction of "Jews and non-Jews."  A few were righteous, most were unrighteous.

The point of this example is the suddenness, the unexpectedness, of His visitation in judgment.  The two in the field would not likely be the one a Jew, the other a Gentile.  I suggest that these are both His people, but one suffers His judgment and is "taken" as were those who were taken by the deluge.  The example of the "faithful and prudent slave," as compared to "that evil slave," is set within the same lord's house.  Note that the slave who is cut asunder is appointed his part "with the hypocrites" -- the same term Jesus had just been applying to the scribes and Pharisees, who were still His people!

Now we come to ch. 25, and we see the same line of thinking continued.

  Some were ready for the coming of the bridegroom, some were stupid and unprepared.  But all were "virgins,"  all were part of the same society: His people.

Next He gives the example of "a man traveling," who "calls his own slaves" and gives money for them to work with, then he is returning "and settling accounts with them."  The faithful slaves are rewarded, the "wicked and slothful slave" suffers loss and is cast into outer darkness where he laments and gnashes his teeth -- along with the hypocrites of ch. 24:51.  What happened to him?  He simply lost his job and was removed from his position in the household, or business.  He was now homeless and jobless.  But he is still a part of the same society, one of God's people.

Now we come to the wonderful (for I suggest that this is part of the "good news") passage in vs. 31-46.

  Why should we suppose that all of a sudden Jesus has changed the format or the setting or the subject matter of this long discourse?  I suggest that the problem lies in the translation of ta eqnh as "the nations."  May I quote from Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. II, p. 369: "'ethnos'" in the NT.  1.  This word, which is common in Gk. from the very first, probably comes from 'ethos,' and means 'mass' or 'host' or 'multitude' bound by the same manners, customs or other distinctive features.  Applied to men, it gives us the sense of people; but it can also be used of animals in the sense of 'herd' or of insects in the sense of 'swarm' .... In most cases 'ethnos' is used of men in the sense of 'a people'." 

It seems to me that since Jesus is speaking in terms of sheep and kids, that the words "herds" or "multitudes" may be more appropriate for this passage.  All along, up to this point in these sayings, He has been referring to His people, His household.  A kid was a clean animal and could be used in a sacrifice.  He was not severing the sheep from the dogs or the swine.  I submit that this gathering is the same assembling spoken of in ch. 24:31.  If you insist on the word being translated "nations," then I suggest a word of clarity be added and it read, "gathered [from] all the nations."  This sense seems consistent to the entire passage.

Further, it would seem from the picture being drawn that since the "Shepherd" is severing one species from another, that it is evident that both up to this point have been a part of His herd.

  Jesus is here using this figure to once again show that when He is coming He makes a distinction, such as between the wise and the stupid, or between the faithful and the useless.  This is a time of reward, or the suffering of loss.  Knoch has well pointed out the absence of believing as being an ingredient in this figure.  All that is discussed is good works, or the absence thereof.

But let us look further, at the terms "sheep" and "brethren."  In John 10:24-27 we see Jesus saying to the Jews (vs. 26), "But you are not believing, seeing that you are not My sheep, according as I said to you."  These were Israelites, Jews, but they were not His sheep.  Vs. 27 gives a designation of sheep, "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me."  Recall Matt. 25:12 where the bridegroom said to the stupid virgins, "I am not acquainted with you."

In a broad sense, Israel was figured as sheep (e.g. Ps. 100:3; Isa. 53:6; Jer. 50:6; etc.).  However, we see Jesus making a distinction here in John 10:26, as He did between virgins and servants in Matt. 24 & 25.  Perhaps this is what Paul was referring to in Rom. 11:7 where he said, "yet the chosen encountered it.  Now the rest [of Israel ] were calloused ..."  This would fall in line with Lu. 12:32 , "Do not fear, little flocklet,  for it delights your Father to give you the kingdom."  Matt. 13:11 gives further light, where Jesus says to the disciples, "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those [the ones who were not disciples] it has not been given."

In Lu. 8:21 Jesus makes this statement: "My mother and My brethren are these who are hearing the word of God and doing it."  Paul refers to this same group when he speaks of those "who are called according to purpose, because whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren." (Rom.8:28,29)  Paul uses the term "brethren" throughout his letters to refer to those of the body of Christ.  Thus, how you treat His "body" is how you treat Him.

To differentiate between the body of Christ and the Israelites in general, Paul inserts the qualifying phrase "my relatives according to the flesh" when he calls Israelites "brethren" in Rom. 9:3.  In Rom. 10:1 Paul distinguishes between Israel, who he had just been talking about in the previous verses, and his brothers in Christ when he says, "Indeed, brethren, the delight of my heart and my petition to God for THEIR sake [or, "on behalf of them;" some later MSS read "on behalf of Israel"] is for salvation."  Thus, to assume that the phrase "the least of My brethren" refers to the nation of Israel , in Matt. 25:40, is, I think, erroneous.

What is the difference between the sheep and the kids?

 The sheep produced the fruit of the Spirit -- Love -- without ever taking note of it.  They were not aware of this fruit.  It was the automatic produce of the mature life of Christ that was within them.  It was evident that they were disciples ("By this all shall be knowing that you are My disciples, if you should be having love for one another."  John 13:35).  Their good works were just a mature outflow of His life.  Their reward was to "enjoy the allotment of the kingdom."

What of the kids?

 They were just still "kids." -- pardon the pun.  There was no fruit of the Spirit in their lives.  To change the metaphor, they just needed to be pruned to produce fruit.  As you know, the word translated "chastening" in the CLNT is the noun "kolasis," from the verb "koladzo," which Thayer lists as, "1. prop. to lop, prune, as trees, wings.  2. to check, curb, restrain."  Among the meanings Kittel lists are "to cut short," "to lop," "to trim."  Consider the metaphor in John 15:1-2, "I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer.  Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit, He is cleansing it [with eonian fire?], that it may be bringing forth more  fruit."  Changing the metaphor again, let us look at Heb. 12:5-7, "My son, do not be neglecting (giving little care to) the Lord's discipline (education, child-training), neither be exhausted (dissolved) being continually convicted (exposed, reproved, put to the test) under Him, for whom the Lord is loving (continuously loves), He is continuously disciplining (child-training), and He is repeatedly scourging every son whom He is taking alongside with His hands (accepting, receiving).  If you are remaining under discipline (child-training), God is continuously being brought (offered) toward you as sons.  For what son exists whom a father is not disciplining?" (Mitchell version)  So these kids are not ready to enjoy the allotment of the kingdom -- YET!  But Christ is treating them as sons!

Returning to the metaphor of a branch being lopped off, we see in John 15:2 & 6 that "Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking away .... If anyone should not be remaining in Me, he is (or, was -- aor.) cast out as a branch, and is withered (or, it withered).  And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned."  This seems quite similar to the figure of the kids being sent from Him "into the fire eonian" in Matt. 25:41.

But let's look to Romans, where Paul uses the "branch" metaphor in ch. 11:17, "Now if some of the boughs are broken out ..."  What happens to a bough when it is broken out of a tree?  It withers, doesn't it?  Is it true, then, that these too are being gathered into the fire and are being burned?  Has this not happened, both literally and figuratively, to the Jews throughout history ever since?  But the hope is found in vs. 23, "Now they also, if they should not be persisting in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again!"  I suggest that this same principle applies to the kids that are pruned in Matt. 25:46.

Jonathan Mitchell

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Jonathan Mitchell New Testament

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« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 12:38:29 AM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 06:10:46 PM »
Salvador Mundi: Samuel Cox

St. Matthew 25:31-46

Here you must observe that the passage is a parable; and that the parable is concerning nations, not individual men, as our Lord Himself tells us at the very onset (verse 32):

Quote
And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from his goats.

Goats Dear As Sheep

 You must also remember, if you intend to found any conclusion on the parable, or to infer from words spoken of nations conclusions which touch the lot and fate of individual men, that the Judge is here set forth in the tender and familiar form of a Shepherd: that to the Eastern shepherd his goats are well-nigh, if not quite, as dear as his sheep; and that the left hand of a Judge or Ruler is the next best place to his right hand. Nay, more, you must mark--and this is a point which does not appear in our Authorized Version--that our Lord speaks in a certain gentle and kindly, even in a pitiful and caressing tone, of those who are ranged on the left hand of the Judge. The words he uses for them is not "goats." In verse 32, he speaks of the Shepherd as dividing his sheep, not from His goats, but from his "kids"; and in verse 33, he takes a still tenderer tone, and speaks of the Shepherd-Judge as setting His sheep on His right hand, but His "kidlings" - diminutive of kids, and, like all such diminutives, an expression of affection - on His left.

These considerations, these hints of mercy and compassion, may well make us careful as to the conclusions we deduce from this great passage.  And even when the veil of parable falls aside, and when we seem to get clear and distrinct statements, at least on the fate of nations, if not on that of their individual units, we have still to remember that the Judge is depicted as rendering to everyone the due reward of his deeds, and of all his deeds.  It is implied that if anyone has so much as given a cup of cold water to the least of Christ's brethren, he, though himself not a brother, shall in no wise lose His reward.

This Age & That Which Is To Come

And, finally, we have to examine the terms in which these future rewards are expressed.  To those who stand on His left hand, the Judge is represented as saying, "depart from me, ye cursed [self-cursed], into the aeonial fire."  Now I have no wish to abate the impressive sadness, the awful severity of these words.  "The wrath of the Lamb" of God must be very terrible.  And to hear Him whose gracious lips have always hitherto said,"Come unto me" say "depart from Me" will be an experience so sad, a surprise so terrible, as that I can well believe every man who hears that rebuff from His meek and gracious lips will wish that he had never been born; yes, and wish he had never been born even though he understands that he is banished from the presence of Christ only for an age, only that the age-long fire may consume his sins and burn out his unrighteousness.  But to say that those who have rejected Christ in this present age are to be doomed to an everlasting banishment from His mercy is to contradict Christ himself, who expressly tells us that all manner of blasphemy against the Son of Man may be forgiven both in this age and in that which is to come.  And, moreover, it is to import a new meaning into the meaning "aeonial", which, as we have seen, means "age-long," and to import it quite unnecessarily, since if we take our Lord as meaning that a rejection of Him in this age will be punished by banishment from Him in the age to come, we find a very good and sufficient sense in His words; whereas if we take Him as meaning that to reject Him in this brief life is to be excluded from His love forever, we not only strike a note utterly discordant with the tender and pitiful tone He speaks throughout the parable, but we also introduce that vast, unreasonable, unjust disproportion between our deeds here and their results hereafter from which reason and conscience alike revolt.

Kolasis=

And what are we to say to the closing words [verse 46] of the parable?  "These shall go away into aeonial punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."  Well, we may say this, take the phrase "aeonial life" to mean here, as elsewhere, life in Christ, the spiritual life distinctive of the Christian aeons, and "aeonial punishment" to mean here, as elsewhere, the discipline, the punishment distinctive of the Christian aeons, the punishment which those inflict on themselves who adjudge themselves unworthy of that life, and the words make a very good and reasonable sense, a sense so reasonable that we need to search for no other.  And mark, in this case at least, we cannot put a darker sense into the words of Christ except by trifling with them, and implying that we know what He meant better than He did Himself.  For the word rendered "punishment" [kolasis] is a very peculiar one.  In its primary use, when it is applied to natural processes, it means "pruning," i.e., pruning bushes and trees in order that they may bring forth more fruit.  When it is used figuratively, when it is applied to moral processes, it means corrective discipline, discipline by which character is pruned and made more fruitful in good works.  The Greek has two words for "punishment", kolasis, the word used by our Lord and timoria, a word also used in the New Testament [Hebrews 10:29]:  and the distinctive meanings of these two words are defined by Aristotle himself. [RHET.I.,10,17]

Corrective Punishment

The one word, that used by Christ, denotes, He says, that kind of punishment which is intended for improvement of the offender; while the other denotes that kind of punishment which is intended for the vindication of law and justice.  And even the advocates of endless torment admit that the word selected by Christ means, according to the Greek meaning, remedial discipline, punishment designed to reform and improve men, to prune away their defects and sins.  Archbishop Trench, [Synonyms of the New Testament, pp. 23, 24], for example, after adverting to the well known distinction between the two words, confesses that while the latter is used to indicate "the vindictive character of punishment, the former indicates punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender."  And I do not know where we shall find a sadder instance of the way in which good men suffer their theories and traditions to warp their judgment than may be found in the fact that, after thus defining the original and proper sense of the word used by Christ, this good and learned man proceeds to say that it would, however, be "a very serious error" to take the word in its proper sense here.  We, on the contrary, maintain that it would be something worse than an error to take it in any but its usual and proper sense and, therefore, we conclude that our Lord meant precisely what He said; viz., that the wicked should go away from his bar to be pruned, go away into an age-long discipline by which they should be castigated for their sins, yea, and saved from their sins by the corrective discipline of His loving wrath.  For that would not be a corrective discipline which left man unimproved forever; that would be a strange sort of "pruning", which was not at least designed to produce fruit.

"We must all die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again; but the Lord does not take away life instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored."

*Literally "for the banished to not be banished"

« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 01:01:12 AM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2008, 03:52:52 PM »
"The Lost Sheep and the Lost Coin"

We Get The Parables Of Jesus Wrong

I'd like you to think about these two parables of Jesus, and the reason why is because most of the time we get the parables of Jesus wrong. We pick them up, and we think that Jesus is telling us what we ought to do. You know, they're sort of lessons in loveliness. If we can master the lesson in the parable, we can turn out to be perfect peaches or something else. But the point is that parables are not first of all about us. The parables of Jesus are first of all about how God works in this world - the mysterious, strange, bizarre, odd way that God deals with us, because the parables are very strange things. Jesus is a genius of story-telling, and what you have to watch most of all with Jesus in his parables are the small twists, the little turns and the details you don't notice. I can have read a parable for twenty-five years, preached on it twenty-five times, and in the twenty-sixth year all of a sudden see something I never saw before; and it has been buried there all along.

Three Parables About Lostness

So I'm going to start in on the parable of the lost sheep. This is in the 15th chapter of St. Luke's Gospel. And that chapter, incidentally, contains three parables about lostness: the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son, the great parable of the prodigal son. The first thing that Luke says when this parable begins, is that the tax collectors and the sinners were drawing near to Jesus to hear him. The scribes and the pharisees grumbled about this. They complained about this and they said, "This man welcomes sinners, and he eats with them, and therefore he's a bad person."

Not Much Of A Messiah

Now, obviously Jesus, by many people's minds, was thought to be a perfect candidate to be the promised Messiah who would fulfill God's will for Israel and do all sorts of wonderful things in the world. People like the scribes and the pharisees didn't think that Jesus was much of a Messiah candidate if he could associate with tax collectors and sinners. Tax collectors were mostly crooks in those days, and sinners meant what it means now. Everyone's favorite sin is something sexual, and the sinners most likely were prostitutes. Jesus spent a lot of time welcoming those people, eating with them, talking with them, visiting them, and otherwise consorting with them, so they didn't like this. It's apropos of this remark: "This fellow eats with sinners and welcomes them!", that Jesus tells the parables of lostness.

Of Course Not

"I want you to imagine that you have one hundred sheep," he says to the pharisees and the scribes around him. "I want you to imagine that you have one hundred sheep and that you lose one of them. Now, wouldn't you, therefore, go out after the lost one until you find it?" Well, what's the real answer to that question? The real answer to that question is "of course not." Nobody in his right mind who's in the sheep business has one hundred sheep, loses one, leaves the ninety-nine to the wolves and the coyotes, and goes chasing off after one. You cut your losses, forget about the lost sheep, and go on with the ninety-nine. So Jesus' question is perverse. It's odd. It's ironic. Who among you would do this? Who among you wouldn't go out and do this? Everybody wouldn't! They wouldn't go out and do this sort of thing. And, therefore, then he says, "And when you find that, what would you do with the sheep if you'd actually done this?" You would put the sheep on your shoulder, and then notice what Jesus says. He doesn't say, "Then he goes back to the ninety-nine and gives this little sheep back to his mother sheep," or something else. What Jesus says is that he puts the lost sheep on his shoulders and goes to his house. He goes home.

Jesus Never Returns To The 99

In this parable, Jesus never goes back to the ninety-nine sheep. The ninety-nine sheep are a set-up. Jesus has divided the flock into one sheep and ninety-nine sheep, and he's not trying to make two different groups. You know, ninety-nine who don't get lost, and one who does. I think the real meaning of the one and the ninety-nine is that the one lost sheep is the whole human race as it really is. And the ninety-nine "found" sheep who never get lost are the whole human race as we think we are. And the ninety-nine; therefore, are not a real piece of business in this. The one lost sheep stands for all of us, and this says that the only thing the shepherd—God, the God character—is interested in, is going after the lost, and, if necessary, the shepherd will go out of the sheep ranching business to find the lost, and God, therefore, will go out of the God business, of the business of being the kind of God we turn God into the God who's a bookkeeper, the God who's the divine infinite "watch-bird" who's keeping records on everybody, and if you don't do it right, he's not going to bother with you anymore. That's the business that God goes out of when he goes after the lost because he only wants to come and find sinners. He doesn't want anything else. And then Jesus asks the last question in this one, and he says, "I say to you that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." The proof of this is, of course, did you ever meet any of those ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance? No, you didn't. There isn't one in the whole world. So this proves the set-up that Jesus is only interested in finding the lost; that God, in Christ, is only interested in finding the lost.

The Lost Coin

Now, he follows this parable up with the parable of the lost coin, and Jesus changes the image. The God character in this parable is not a shepherd. It's a woman. It's a very strange woman. As the shepherd is sort of crazy to go chase one sheep and leave ninety-nine to the wolves, so this woman is even crazier. It says this woman has ten coins, and I like to think, just to bring it up to date, that what this woman has is ten Susan B. Anthony dollars in a nice wooden case with red velvet lining and little recessed partitions for each of the ten Susan B. Anthony dollars. And every morning she gets up, and she looks in there and pats them and polishes them and puts them back down again. She gets up one morning, and one of her precious Susan B. Anthony dollars is missing so what does this woman do? She is as crazy as the shepherd, if not crazier, because she stops her entire life. She stops anything she had to do that day. She stops whatever housework she was going to do, and she lights a light, and goes into all the dark corners. She sweeps, and sweeps, and sweeps, and looks under everything for the whole day until she finds this coin. And what does she do when she finds it? Interestingly enough, like the shepherd Jesus never says she puts it back in the box. It says she gets on the phone to her friends and her neighbors and says, "Come on over, I'm going to have a party. I found my lost coin."

And now I'm sure that these friends and neighbors say, "Gertrude, you found a coin, right? And we're supposed to come?"

She says, "Yes. I have cream soda, and I have ring dings, and you're going to come over, and we're going to celebrate my lost coin."

Certainly they'd say, "Yes, Gertrude, we'll come." But they are not that enthusiastic. But the point is, she is. And this woman proves something. In the lost sheep, you can develop some pity for the poor, little lost sheep. You can feel bad, you know, that it's injured or hurt or fearful and all that. But you can't work up any pity for a lost coin. A lost coin never knows it's lost. One place is as good as another. The point is that what these two parables put together say is that what governs God's behavior to us is not our sins. It's not our problems. It's his need to find us. These parables go by the need of the finder to find, not about the need of the lost to be found. That's obvious. We always knew that. We could have gone to our graves knowing that. The great thing is that the universe is driven by the need of the finder to find all of us in our lostness. And that, of course, is the beginning.

The Lost Son

And the last of the three parables in this chapter is the lost son, which commonly goes by the name of the prodigal son because we misname these parables. Interestingly enough, obviously this parable should be called the parable of the forgiving father. Now, what I want to do is set-up the parable a little bit, and tell it to you quickly. I'm not going to go through the whole thing, just because I hope it's familiar. But a man has two sons, and the youngest son comes to him and says, "Father—Dad—put your will into effect and split up the entire inheritance right now between me and my brother." You know what that is in so many words? That's: "Drop dead, Father." He's suggesting that the father put his will into effect. And the father does it. He gives all the cash that's loose to the younger son. He gives the entire property, like South Fork, in "Dallas,"—some big spread—to the elder brother, and the father sits on the porch for the rest of the parable, at least for a little bit of it, and retires from things.

Wine, Women & Song

The younger son takes the money and goes to a far country. He has wine, women, and song; blows all his money, ends up feeding pigs, and sits there and says one day, "Oh, as I think of my father's servants, they eat better than I do. I'm going to go home, and say, 'Father, I've sinned against heaven and against you. I'm not worthy to be your son. Make me a hired servant.'" Now, that is not a sinner who was repentant, yet. Because what he's said: "Father, I'm a no-good son," and "Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you," is true. That's fine. That's pretty good for repentance. But "Make me a hired servant" is not a repentance. That's a plan for life. That's a plan to con his father into accepting him back instead of coming back as a no-good son. So he comes home. He comes down the road and when he's a half mile off, his father sees him. He runs down the road, falls on his neck and kisses him, and after the forgiveness and the father's kiss, the son makes his confession. He says, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I'm not worthy to be your son." And he leaves off the hired servant business. The father then goes immediately to the thing that ended the other parables. He goes to the party. He calls for the rings on his fingers, the shoes on his feet, and says: "Kill the fatted calf, and let us eat and be merry. My son was dead, and he's alive, was lost, he's found." And they have a party, and there's music and dancing and everything else. Then Jesus brings in the other lost son. He's the ninety-nine. He's the nine other coins in the box. He thinks he's found. He comes in, and he's whining.

All These Years I Have Been Such A Good Boy

He says, "All these years I have been such a good boy, and done your will and done all these wonderful things, and you never even gave me a goat to have a party with my friends. But when this son of yours who has wasted his substance with whores comes home, then you give him the fatted calf." And he won't go in. What this son has done—though he thinks he's a found character and he's a wonderful bookkeeper and has got everything else right—what he has done, is come into the courtyard of the house, with a party inside, and he has brought hell with him. He is the hell of his own bookkeeping, the hell of his own complaining. He has brought hell with him.

What Does The Father Do?

What does the father do? The father's the God character. What does the father do? The father goes out into the courtyard once again, like the shepherd, like the woman, to seek the lost. The need of the finder to find. He goes out there, and he talks to his son, and he says, "Look, son, Arthur, everything I have belongs to you. You could have had fatted calf three nights a week if you wanted. All you had to do was build the stalls. You have the money. You have no imagination, Arthur. You know what I would like you to do, Arthur? I would like you to shut up, go inside, kiss your brother, and have a drink." And the wonderful thing about this parable is that Jesus, genius of a storyteller that he is, has ended it so that it doesn't end.

It Has Never Ended

At the end of the parable—suppose you saw it in a film—you have the music and the sounds of the feasting and the laughter inside the house. You have the father and the elder brother standing in the courtyard, and the way the film ends is, it ends with a freeze frame: father, elder brother, joyful music over in the back. And for two thousand years this has been read in the church, every year people have read it in the Bible endlessly, endlessly. For two thousand years, that's where the story has ended. It has never ended. The father always seeks the lost son, and the lost son is not just the prodigal, it is at the end, the prodigal's already found now, he's home free, but the other one is not, because he won't come into the party. Consequently, the other thing you could say about this, it's not only for two thousand years that that parable has stood with that freeze frame, it will stand there forever because God will forever stand. We say Jesus, between when he died and when he arose, descended into hell. He descended to the lost. This is the last truth of the parable of the prodigal son, that for all eternity God still seeks those in hell. If I go down into hell, Thou art there with me. We cannot get away from the love that will not let us go because God, who in all these parables represented by the shepherd, and the woman, and the father, never ceases to seek and to find the lost.

HERE
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2008, 03:04:48 PM »
Greek has a word and an expression that means "eternal", but αιωνιον is not one of them. αιωνιον is an age (singular). The punishment in St. Matthew 25, comes from the word κολαζω which means to prune and is used in a disciplinary sense and not a penal one.  μωρια would be used in a penal (vengeance) sense, not kolasis which means correction and is rooted in kolazo leading to the same result: purging and pruning.

New Thayers Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines "kolasis" as "CORRECTION, punishment, penalty"

The Latin Vulgate translated αιωνιον as "aeternus" from which we get the English words eternal and eternity. The KJV translators, instead of going back to the Greek, went to the Latin Vulgate and translated "aeternus". Translating that as "eternal" is based on Latin theology (Roman Catholicism). It was absolutely essential to Augustinian theology with its blightening emphasis on the doctrine of predestinarianism to mistranslate the Greek adjective αιωνιον, and put on it a meaning which the Greek will not for a moment allow in its respective applications to salvation and judgment.

The Greek word for "everlasting" is αιδιοις.

 Remember, "eternal" means without beginning or end. Only God is eternal. Everlasting means without end. αιωνιον means age, but αιδιοις (plural) means "everlasting" or perpetual. The other way of saying "everlasting" is εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων. One is an adjective that means "everlasting", the other is a noun.

Scripture talks about everlasting life, but when it's talking about "aionian" life, that's not it. This passage is talking about age-lasting life and age-lasting punishment (chastisement).

Sheep & Goats

Numbers 18:17 "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD."

Goats are clean animals. If you look in the OT, consistently it makes statements such as the one in Exodus 12:5: "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:"

The lamb for the sacrifice could come from sheep or goats. Goats are clean. If goats are a clean animal that doesn't need redeeming throughout Scripture, why would He suddenly change His mind that they are unclean in this one instance?

I know of few serious Biblical scholars that recommend Strong's for serious study. Strong's is better than nothing, though. Dana and Mantey's "A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament" is a good work. Moulton and Milligan's "The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament" is good. "The Analytical Greek Lexicon" is good. William D. Ramey's series is excellent. Griesbach, Tischendorf, and any of a number of serious Greek students that have no pre-conceived agenda to push are good.

Accurate translations are available, although some are pricey. Rotherham's is quite nicely translated, but not quite as readable. Young's is good. Weymouth's is good. Green's is nicely written, but translates along the KJV instead of the Greek. www.inthebeginning.org has some excellent resources. www.concordant.info has an excellent freeware program that concordantly translates the NT, without pre-conceived bias.

Comparing the papyrii, Aristotle, Plato, Hericlitus and others are also good ways to get a grasp on the language itself.

Even in the original language, there are minor differences between serious scholars, but why add to the confusion with mis-translating words and making them say something that the Greek will not at all accept? αιωνιον cannot by any sane reason (other than general concensus based on Catholicism) be translated as "eternal". Unless the Holy Spirit made a mistake when the writers were told what to write, this passage is not referring to eternal life or everlasting life. We know it's not referring to eternal life; only God is eternal.

Jesus Christ draws distinction between sheep and goats. Sheep and goats are both clean animals. The sheep are righteous and the goats aren't, but they are both groups of believers. Those on the right hand go to age-lasting reward, those on the left to age-lasting chastisement. 


 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 12:18:11 PM by FineLinen »
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

whyiloveitaly.com

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 12:33:36 PM »
These goats are special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

Blessings to all,
Brian

Offline 97531

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2008, 12:55:57 PM »
Just a thought.

We have one passage in Matthew referring to sheep and goats.  In line with what Jesus said of the other sheep and saying to the religious you are not my sheep, my sheep know my voice and they follow me.

A shepherd leads from the front, goats are herded from the back.  Is that perhaps a clue?

Mat 25:41  Then He also shall say to those goats on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42  For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43  I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; I was naked, and you did not clothe Me; I was sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44  Then they will also answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?
Mat 25:45  Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous sheep into everlasting life.

How does the church work?  Leading or forcing?

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Offline FineLinen

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2008, 09:36:48 PM »
Matt. 25:46

Quote
And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age). -- Jonathan Mitchell Translation-


Kolazo= to prune (such as trees)

Zodhiates: The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary

Metaphorically, to correct, moderate.

Bullinger: A Critical Lexicon & Concordance of the English & Greek NT

To curtail,

To dock,

To prune.

Theyer's Lexicon
 
To lop.

To prune.

(As trees or wings)

To correct.

Friberg, Friberg, Miller, The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek N.T.

To cut off.

To lop off.

To trim.

To prune.

Liddell & Scott Lexicon

The noun kolasis:

Checking the growth;

Correction.

Young's Analytical Concordance

Restraint.

Zodhiates says of kolasis

Quote
[it] conveys the notion of punishment for the correction and bettering of the offender.

Word Meanings In The N.T. -Ralph Earle-

Unfruitful.

The adjective akarpos comes from the alpha-privative a- and karpos, "fruit."

So it means "unfruitful" or "unproductive" --since fruit is used in the KJV for "crops".



In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline FineLinen

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2008, 02:06:35 PM »
Dr. James Strong

Punishment= kovlasiß =

kovlasiß =

Correction

Punishment

Penalty.

kovlasiß rooted in kolavzw from kolos (dwarf)

kolavzw=

To lop or prune, as trees and wings.
 
To curb, check, restrain.
 
To chastise, correct, punish.

To cause to be punished.

St. Matthew 25:46

HERE

 

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In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

martincisneros

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 10:47:43 AM »
Seems to me that the Sheep are simply the new man in Christ, while the Goats are simply the old Adamic, carnal nature.  Might seem like an oversimplification, like when I always say that there's only one Lazarus in the 4-Gospels that was a beggar at the gates of the Pharisaical religion of his day, but Christ did raise him to newness of life in answer to the prayer of the Rich man in Hell.  The rich man was probably in Hell because of religious dogma that would say that God and money are mutually exclusive and if you're going to have one, then you can't have the other.  After listening to his own belly groaning for a few days and not having been exposed to Jesus' teachings on the 100fold with persecutions, wound up choosing the lifestyle of a goat and got banished to Hell by evangelical Christians.  The longer version of the sheep and goat parable is in the book of Enoch and it ends in Universal Restoration.  But a few weeks ago, I found a passage somewhere in the Old Testament that mentioned that goats were being restored to the Lord.  I'm not sure how helpful a concordance would be, because of the crazy number of translations and paraphrases that I'm always looking at.  But Jesus said in the Gospel of John that He had other sheep that were not of that flock.  If you can only be a sheep through faith in Christ, then at some point some goats were going to have to be converted according to the self cornering nature of evangelical fundamentalism, because otherwise how would Jesus have sheep that were not of that flock that He'd bring in, if there's no such thing as sheep that aren't currently believers.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2008, 08:56:53 PM »
Concerning Lazarus, he was not in the bosum of Abraham because of the rich man's prayer. The rich man thought even yet that he was Lazarus's superior, and sought to order him through Abraham.
 What then, did Abraham answer?

Luke 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

One was raised from the dead, one they could see, and his name was Lazarus , yet they were not persuaded, and crucified the Lord of Glory. When they see Christ at the appointed time, they will yet rise up against Him.

There is no crossing that gulf between wheat and tares.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 07:09:57 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

martincisneros

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 06:13:17 AM »
There is no crossing that gulf between wheat and tares.

At least two problems with this statement, Peacetroll.  Number 1: it presupposes double election, which means that you've asserted that God has predestined some to eternal damnation or eternal annihilation.  Number 2: If there's no crossing that gulf between wheat and tares, then why preach the Gospel if it has absolutely no transforming power?

I know that I can't prove this from the 4 Gospels themselves, but you can't disprove it from the same 4 Gospels and it fits in beautifully with other Scriptures that I take to establish the case for the Universal Restoration:  There's only 1 Lazarus in the 4 Gospels.  So, this parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows God hearing the prayer of the "damned," even if Abraham wasn't privy to Father God's decision to have Christ raise Lazarus from the dead to warn the brothers.

martincisneros

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2008, 06:49:16 AM »
One thing that I want to clarify about my last comment is that I wasn't saying that Abraham was necessarily oblivious of Father God's decision along those lines, but "as of when" Jesus told what people call the "parable" of the rich man and Lazarus, it's evident that Abraham had no hope to offer the rich man.  But the buck doesn't stop with Abraham, as everyone knows, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards Abraham.

laren

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2008, 07:18:04 AM »
IMO, the chasm can not be crossed either.   The old doesn't have a place in the kingdom of God. 


but that doesn't mean that there is no Universal reconciliation; but rather is the means to it. 


Offline Taffy

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2008, 04:02:08 PM »
Amen Laren..

PT.did you ever consider The chasm is breached Via Faith ..as In" If they DID NOT HEAR the voice of moses and the Prophets"( as all scripture pertains to Christ) FAITH COMES BY hearing

or Consider the RICMAN faith was in the Torah being  His 5 brothers( the old and NEW dont Mix,,Tis GOD who HELPS( SAVES)
The Richman is no more than the one spoken in Math 19...same principle...and its NOT Money.

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« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 04:09:53 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

laren

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2008, 04:18:59 PM »
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;

(first tabernacle, built "with hands"

Act 17:24  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

to gather "out of" the kingdom, one had to be in the kingdom. 

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[fn3] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2008, 01:10:14 AM »
Can anyone see that the following parables have the same deeper meaning as that of Lazuras and the rich man? 

ALL THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURES/PARABLES ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Romans 9:22-23 (King James Version)

 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Matthew 13:47-49 (King James Version)
 47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Do you believe What Christ said...???

John 8:43-45 (King James Version)

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Are you believing What Christ said...???

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (King James Version)

 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Now...Here are many scriptures that are all explaining much of the same thing...tares and wheat...sheep and goats...bondwoman and free...vessels fitted for destruction and vessels for honor...those in the straight gate and those in the wide....all the same deeper meaning...show me your scriptures in equal number and diversity backing your philosophy, to disprove what these scriptures say.

If you can't, consider what Paul had to say...

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

2 Peter 2:2
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 01:22:28 AM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

laren

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2008, 01:21:45 AM »
AMEN


 


 Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


 Gal 4:23  But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.


 Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

 


 Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


 Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.


 Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


 Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.




Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;

(first tabernacle, built "with hands"

Act 17:24  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

to gather "out of" the kingdom, one had to be in the kingdom. 

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[fn3] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?

Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.




Offline Peacetroll

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2008, 01:43:36 AM »
These are the works spoken of that shall be burned. These works are what he believes in Christ. If one is not in Christ, he has no part in this burning,-- the Judgement seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Corinthians 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
 that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.




Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline willieH

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2008, 01:44:33 AM »
Can anyone see that the following parables have the same deeper meaning as that of Lazuras and the rich man? 

ALL THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURES/PARABLES ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Romans 9:22-23 (King James Version)

 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Matthew 13:47-49 (King James Version)
 47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Do you believe What Christ said...???

John 8:43-45 (King James Version)

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Are you believing What Christ said...???

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (King James Version)

 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Now...Here are many scriptures that are all explaining much of the same thing...tares and wheat...sheep and goats...bondwoman and free...vessels fitted for destruction and vessels for honor...those in the straight gate and those in the wide....all the same deeper meaning...show me your scriptures in equal number and diversity backing your philosophy, to disprove what these scriptures say.

If you can't, consider what Paul had to say...

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Are you believing What Christ said over any other source?  If your not...why not???!!!!!!

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

2 Peter 2:2
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

WHERE is the GOOD NEWS in your preaching "peaceTROLL"?  :thumbdown:

You continuing agenda is about the SORROW of DESTRUCTION... not PEACE and JOY of SALVATION...  :thumbdown:  You therefore bear YOUR agenda, not CHRIST's...  :sigh:

Those who follow CHRIST preach GOOD NEWS... for THAT is what He instructed to do... (Matt 28:19 / Mark 16:15)

There is no WARNING directive from JESUS...

It is found in the mouths of those WITHOUT GOOD NEWS...  :sigh:

peaCe...
...willieH  :thumbsup:

laren

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2008, 02:09:34 AM »
To me Willie, the good news is that through the destruction of the old, comes reconciliation. 

Destruction is a good thing.  None of the old can be in the NEW.


Peacetroll,

does Abraham come from Adam, re: his geneology??

You quote the Galatians verse of one of the "son's" of Abraham (Ishmael) and use it in the same context as the tares, that is "cast out". 

And in previous posts you state that in Adam all will be saved.  The only way then that "Ishmael" and the children of the old covenant could not be saved is then for Abraham not to have Adam as his father??


can you explain your position on this.  Why isn't the "son of the bondwoman" saved if his father is Abraham??

Offline willieH

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2008, 02:15:57 AM »
These are the works spoken of that shall be burned. These works are what he believes in Christ. If one is not in Christ, he has no part in this burning,-- the Judgement seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Corinthians 5:9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
 that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

????????????? If one is NOT in CHRIST he has NO PART in the burning?????????????????

(Mark 9:49) says OTHERWISE peacetroll... ALL face the FIRE...  :dontknow:

The context in the same chapter as you quote above (2 Cor 5:9-10), says seven verses later:

(2 Cor 5:17-19) 

17 therefore if any man be in CHRIST he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new...

18 and ALL THINGS are OF GOD who hath RECONCILED us to Himself by JESUS CHRIST and hath given to us the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION... [Not the "ministry" of DESTRUCTION]

19 To wit that GOD was IN CHRIST, ...RECONCILING the WORLD unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses UNTO THEM, and hath COMMITTED unto us the WORD of RECONCILIATION
[NOT the "word" of DESTRUCTION]
 
That "WORD" being, ...the ...GOSPEL which is to be taught to EVERY CREATURE (Mk 16:15), peacetroll  :cloud9:

If ANY MAN "be IN CHRIST"... he is PUT there BY CHRIST... and CHRIST has NO RESPECT (impartial) of PERSONS (Acts  10:34 / Rom 2:11 / Job 34:19)... it is therefore HIS WORK for any man to be IN Him... otherwise deduced: we SAVE ourselves...

We are "APPEARING" before Him...NOW...  :dontknow:  Do you think you do ANYTHING which He does not SEE?  And in Him SEEING, does JUDGMENT of that deed not TAKE PLACE?  Get a clue... :rolleye:

John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD... NOW shall the prince of THIS WORLD be cast out...

The GOSPEL is a "NOW" kinda thing dude...

peaCe...
...willieH  :thumbsup:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2008, 02:16:26 AM »
Hi Peace Troll,

Do you believe this fire to be of the Literal variety?


13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


The above verse is a truth to our existance.

The below verse is also.

1Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



Offline Peacetroll

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2008, 02:27:43 AM »
 The burning is simply having all you believe judged by the truth of Jesus Christ. Either it will prove to be true at His appearing, or it will be partial, or worse yet, all false but the foundation of Christ,and Him crucified.Why Paul said we run the race. We build on that foundation.

 :sigh:My effort is to tell the truth, with scriptures, to people who profess to want to know the truth.  It is good news to all who are of God the Light.  Terrible news to those who are not.  They hate the truth, for it exposes them for what they are.

2 Peter 2
 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
That Lord is the Light, the Glory of God.

 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

 When one says God makes no difference in the end between the children of the Light and the children of this world, isn't he calling Jesus a liar?.

David put it another way.

Psalm 10:13
Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.


 
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline willieH

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2008, 04:58:17 AM »
willieH: Hi readers... :hithere:

It is for the benefit of READERS that I post this reply to peacetroll... and challenge his words... displaying those words empty of truth...

:sigh: My effort is to tell the truth, with scriptures, to people who profess to want to know the truth.  It is good news to all who are of God the Light.  Terrible news to those who are not.  They hate the truth, for it exposes them for what they are.

Sorry, but that is NOT the commission given by CHRIST...  (a message which is both GOOD and TERRIBLE)

The word GOSPEL which is the WORD CHRIST used for His message to be PREACHED to EVERY CREATURE (Mark 16:15) (which you CANNOT and WILL NOT refute) is translated from...

EUAGGELIZO (Strongs - #G2097) [declare bring/show] GLAD (good) tidings, preach (the GOSPEL) ...and,

EUAGGELLION (#G2098) a GOOD message / GOSPEL... they are derived from the Greek words

EU (#G2095) = GOOD
AGGELOS (#G32) = MESSENGER

Both of these Greek terms mean GOOD MESSAGE or bringing/displaying GOOD NEWS... there is NO part of a GOOD MESSAGE that is BAD... otherwise it is a good AND bad message... (which is what your message is dusty, as you have admitted above)

Your version is tainted with NATURAL observations... and in that observation, of course YOU include YOURSELF as one SAVED... :rolleye:

2 Peter 2
 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Sorry again Dusty... this verse does not VERIFY your "message" at all... on the contrary, its SPEAKS negatively of it...

Those who believe in Universal Reconciliation NEVER deny JESUS who bought us!  Again, ...ON THE CONTRARY... we have COMPLETE praise for His COMPLETE work in which he shall SAVE ALL...  :boogie: :myahoo: :ty: JESUS!
 
That Lord is the Light, the Glory of God.

 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

As you propose SELECTIVE and SELF-GENERATED salvation, conveniently including yourself... you endeavor to make GOD as PARTIAL... and a DESTROYER, not a CREATOR... One which CREATES does so WITHOUT the purpose to DESTROY...

You have colored GOD as a partial being which predestines for NO REASON, the DESTRUCTION of beings which HE CREATED...  :thumbdown:  :pitiful:

When one says God makes no difference in the end between the children of the Light and the children of this world, isn't he calling Jesus a liar?.

The CHILDREN of LIGHT are those to WHOM "LIGHT" has imparted the power to be such... No one DOES something to make themselves CHILDREN of LIGHT... GOD must enact this in EACH, for we are POWERLESS to do it ourselves (John 6:44 & 65)

David put it another way.

Psalm 10:13
Wherefore doth the wicked contemn [despise] God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require [investigate] it.

The UNCONVERTED soul is DESPARATELY WICKED, of itself (Jer 17:9)  And is UNABLE to do otherwise...

Did YOU convert yourself dusty?  :dontknow:

If NOT, then it was GOD which CONVERTED you... and in order to TRUTHFULLY be IMPARTIAL (Acts 10:34 / Rom 2:11 / Job 34:19),

He must DO for ALL OTHERS,  :gthumbsup:  ...that which He has DONE for you...  :thumbsup:

peaCe...
...willieH  :thumbsup:

Offline willieH

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Re: The Sheep & The Goats Of St. Matt. 25
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2008, 05:04:41 AM »
willieH: Hi brother L!  :hithere:

To me Willie, the good news is that through the destruction of the old, comes reconciliation. 

Destruction is a good thing.  None of the old can be in the NEW.

Amen brother... I whole -  :HeartThrob: -edly ...AGREE!  :goodpost:

In HIS process, and in HIS time, in the order which HE processes each, ...GOD is destroying the BAD/EVIL found in EACH human being, which is very GOOD NEWS!

He is NOT about destroying the CHILD just because it got dirty...  :pointlaugh:

He is about destroying the DIRT, so that the CHILD is once again, CLEAN!  :bgdance:

peaCe...
...willieH  :thumbsup: