Author Topic: "Without excuse"  (Read 1708 times)

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Paul

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"Without excuse"
« on: June 19, 2008, 03:53:53 PM »
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Rom. 1:20)

The Concordant Literal Version says:

"For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,"

People obviously use this verse to justify it being a person's own fault if he's sent to "hell." What does it really mean? And does "defenseless" in the CLV mean the same thing as "without excuse," or is that where the problem lies?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 03:58:18 PM by Paul »

martincisneros

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Re: "Without excuse"
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 05:38:40 PM »
...without excuse, for when they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but they became vain in their imaginations.  I hate to point out the obvious, but chapters 2 and 3 follow chapter 1.  I always get in the most trouble by looking for answers in the context.  But it does sorta make me wonder if St. Paul was saying that Jews in Rome had gotten so far away from Jerusalem being in their hearts and had blended so much into the Roman culture, that perhaps they were slipping into the homosexuality that Romans 1 ends with.  I'm not sure if I could ever verify that, but at the very least the context seems to be about the wrath of God being upon the religious institution as you follow the thought from the first chapter to the close of the third chapter where he concludes that the only righteousness is the righteousness of faith. 

Then chapter 4 goes into the example of Abraham and it says that the account of his life was written for us who have faith in Christ.  Tying the first chapter for a moment with the 4th chapter and remembering what it says in Genesis, then it can be said that those who have faith in Christ are likewise without excuse if they're not interceding for the Sodoms and Gomorrahs of our day.  We're supposed to have the faith of Abraham, who is not only the father of all who believe, but he was also the intercessor for Sodom and Gomorrah, for whose sake God promised their restoration in Ezekiel 16:53-55.  What seems to trip people up about the passage you've cited from Romans 1 is the fact that it says that the wrath of God is revealed against all of the ungodliness of those who are suppressing the truth -- which again, in St. Paul's context could be the obstinant Jews that were disobedient to the faith.

I gave the link in the previous sentence because I briefly touched a related subject with the 2Timothy 3:1-9 passage elsewhere on these boards.  I'm starting to think more and more that the answer to a lot of these types of passages, like this Romans 1 passage is in the situations that St. Paul was facing in his life and ministry.  That should probably be obvious, but I don't think we always think of that first.

But doesn't it say elsewhere that the wrath of God already abides on all unbelievers?  That would have included the wrath of God being upon each of our lives prior to Christ having kicked the door down and taken us as His own!  Each of us before we came to Christ were "without excuse," or "defenseless" before the risen Christ, and where did that lead in each of our lives?  When God showed each of us the sufficiency of Christ and the insufficiency of each of our lives without Christ, each of us were "without excuse," but the Gospel was the power of God unto salvation, whether we were Jew or Gentile.  The purpose of the power of God at work in the earth is to remove each of our excuses so that the Gospel can do it's deepest work in our lives.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 05:46:25 PM by martincisneros »

Paul

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Re: "Without excuse"
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 06:05:33 PM »
Thanks. I really apreciate your elaborate contributions.

martincisneros

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Re: "Without excuse"
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 10:24:39 AM »
Thanks. I really apreciate your elaborate contributions.

No problem.  The admin at the boards is usually supposed to be a little more shushed than I am, but while we've still got less than 50 or 60 people active every week to ten days I feel obligated to toss in my :2c: every once in a while.  I probably dump about as many (or more) of my posts from the boards as I go ahead and leave on the boards 'cause I [sincerely] don't want to dominate threads in any way or to make others feel like they have nothing to say if I did a 5 to 8 paragraph post that briefly touched on something they were going to say.  I've accidentally dominated a few threads before, that I sincerely hoped and prayed others would have posted as much or more than I did.  But, no enchillada.  People moved on to posting onto other threads or were just very brief on a thread that I looked like I went completely postal on :icon_jokercolor:

A whole lot of the time, I genuinely don't know what I'm going to say on a thread until I've just about finished typing it.  So, even if someone feels like I covered what they were basically going to say, or if they liked my answer more than theirs or whatever the case happens to occasionally be, they ought to start posting it anyway while listening to the Holy Spirit 'cause so much more might occur to them right in the middle of typing something.  Just about everything that I post comes together in the typing process.  It might start with an idea that gets fleshed out, or I'll have just enough of "a leading" to go ahead and hit the "reply" button and my first sentence into it turns into a race to the finish, when I honestly didn't have a clue what I was going to say.  I might glance at a different translation from what something has been posted on, and when I'm looking at Scarlett's or the Concordant, or my NASB, or rarely at Rotherham's Emphasized Bible from www.studylight.org and suddenly I'll have an "OH!!!" moment when something clicks right then.  It helps to have read through the New Testament a couple of times for the Holy Spirit to fulfill the promise of Jesus about "bringing to your remembrance all that I've said to you." 

A lot of our critics are going by what they've heard at Church or on some religious broadcast and [honestly] haven't ever read through the entire New Testament for themselves.  Otherwise, if they'd read through the whole thing they'd understand a little better where we're coming from, even if they take issue with our saying that the eternal hell passages are gross exaggerations of the Greek text and inherited presuppositions.  I have to watch myself to not get an attitude with a lot of baby Christians that I know have never read through the whole New Testament.  Otherwise, when I'm at a Christian bookstore or at a Christian event I can so easily get the same chip on my shoulder that's on Matt Damon's character in GoodWill Hunting, where this stuff is sooo easy for me that it's infuriating that other Christians can't see it and I'm unable to account for why they can't see it.

I have to keep telling myself:  None of us knows jack squat until the Lord wants for us to know it.  There's lots in the Scriptures to indicate that apart from the grace of God at work in our lives that we're total imbiciles -- such as being called the "sheep" of His pasture, which is a very degrading term with regards to the "sheep," though it speaks volumns to the patience, wisdom, and attentiveness of the "Good Shepherd."  I have to remind myself every single day that things are easy for me right now while the Lord says that they're easy and that if I get a chip about them not being as easy for others, then they will suddenly become as difficult for me as they are for those who still believe in the ET lie.  It's all a gift and I can only do all things through Jesus Christ.  I don't want to ever ever ever ever be shown what I'm like without the grace of God abounding towards me without measure. 

I see too many lives falling apart everyday and I don't want the least little taste of that.  I had enough of that in my youth to last me for the rest of eternity.  The grace of God's doing something now in chasing something out of my body that was just a taste of what I am on my own without Father's moment by moment attentiveness.  It's amazing how things try to happen to people who've previously lost spouses through no fault of their own.  I was talking to someone the other day that used to never get sick that's gone from one thing to another in their health this year after having lost their husband this last December.  All kinds of sinus crap, nonstop fevers, etc.  My right leg seemed like it tried to go leprous.  (Probably not actual leprosy, but it got bad for a while!)  My skin's starting to come back to the beauty of the skin that I should have for my age, but geez, that was weird for that to have happened to me all of last year.  I'm sure that some people would try to point to some obscure reference to some thought or some cuss word that I said in my youth and try to make the connection with this passage of Scripture that I was "without excuse" and was experiencing "wrath" for God only knows what!

Absolutely no part of the New Testament makes God a part of our problems.  The New Testament is a saving Testament and not a roll of the dice Testament that leaves us with a cliff hanger that's "to be continued..." on judgment day.  We had that before Jesus ever went to the Cross.  If His Blood didn't balance the books, then mine's definitely not going to -- and neither would my soul burning in Hell resolve anything for justice, for Creation, for God's glory, or for anything!  Eternal torment and eternal destruction theories are just the carnal mind of man at it's worst.  It's just the carnal mind having gone totally mad with insanity and it's own demonic darkness and toxicity.  They need to start supplementing with vinca supplements so that they can raise their cerebral metabolism.  Omega-3s wouldn't hurt either with people who've honestly gone brain dead on mainstream Western Christianity, the Western processed diet, and all of these various drinks from sodas to other things that have more chemicals than their local pharmacy has access to.



Nearly made it without a significant typo.  Ah-well.


« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 11:30:01 AM by martincisneros »

Offline studier

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Re: "Without excuse"
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 05:27:23 PM »
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Rom. 1:20)

The Concordant Literal Version says:

"For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,"

People obviously use this verse to justify it being a person's own fault if he's sent to "hell." What does it really mean? And does "defenseless" in the CLV mean the same thing as "without excuse," or is that where the problem lies?



It is legal talk. They have no legal defense.