Author Topic: The End of the World  (Read 3628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jabcat

  • Guest
The End of the World
« on: June 25, 2008, 11:42:27 AM »
WilliH stated some things in the 1st Death/2nd Death thread wrt "the end, persecution, diminishing of faith in the last days", etc. that got my attention.  Not that he was necessarily going anywhere near what I'm about to reference, but it still got my attention and got me to thinking.  Growing up in small, independent Pentecostal churches I heard a LOT about "the last days, the end of the world, the tribulation, the mark of the beast, the 'scary' returning of the Lord, the 'great and terrible day of the Lord', the rapture, this world ending by fire", on and on.  Obviously (to me) scripture does have things to say about at least some of these things, though I personally believe much of it has been mistranslated and misinterpreted.

I realize it encompasses a wide range of varying beliefs about many things, still, as believers in UR, what are some thoughts on this subject as it fits with the Ultimate Reconciliation of all?  I also realize those that see things from a preterist, partial preterist, pre-mill/post-mill etc. POV will come at it from different angles.  However, that will be part of the intrigue of this topic, and I'm sure much scripture will be referenced.  Hopefully we can reason and rightly divide it.

Personally, I understand a lot to have been fulfilled in 70 A.D. wrt this, yet I also believe there are still things to come.  WillieH, I believe I understand much of your POV to generally be "NOW, not bound by 'time'", yet again, you said some things that seem to indicate to me that you also have an insight into some "things to come" as well, so I'm especially interested in your POV on this matter.

I'll toss out what are to me some more key words/phrases...persecution, resurrection, new heaven and earth, "lift up your heads redemption draws near", reconciliation, raised incorruptable, raised to immortality, and there are many more.

Thoughts on the "end times"?  God's blessing, James.


« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 11:58:23 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 06:58:43 AM »
I noticed that, too.

This dream from the book of Daniel gives me a lot of hope about end times because it shows God's kingdom triumphing while the kingdoms of the earth are still in place.  I believe we are in the time of the 4th kingdom (the Roman empire having never really gone away, just transformed), and, in particular, I think we are in the time of the 'stone cut without hands' smashing the feet of clay on the king's statue.  Why are the feet of clay?  Because it is a foundation built on lies and the carnal desires of a few men.  We can see from this dream that there will be no fifth kingdom; the whole thing comes tumbling down before that is achieved.  I believe this is going to be effectuated--the feet being smashed--with the truth.  It's that simple.  And, once people are willing to tell and receive the truth--all truth about everything--the whole thing will fall like a house of cards.  The dream says it will be replaced by God's kingdom, and that this will happen in 'the days of these kings,' and it "shall never be destroyed."

How anything else fits into this, I have no idea (revelation for instance) but this gives me lots of hope, especially since I see it happening now.




37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

 38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

 39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

 40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

 41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

 42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

 43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

 44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 46Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.


--Daniel 2

« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 07:00:39 AM by Molly »

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 07:51:56 AM »
I don't have time right now for a full exposition of where I'm at right now on all of these things 'cause there's some things (quite a few actually) that I'm still waiting on the Holy Spirit about.  But I've believed for a few years now that the visions in Daniel would be fulfilled a second time, and we're sorta seeing that.  Babylon's sorta running it's course via the U.S. Army and a handful of nations that might still have troops over there.  Persia's now wanting to become a nuclear power and Israel's saying it'll be over our dead bodies, and the whole middle east is saying that that can be arranged!  But in Daniel's interpretations you've got Babylon reigning for a while, then Persia, then Greece, then Rome.  Some believe that the final Catholic Pope is just a generation or two away and that he'll be a defector of the faith.  Iran is ancient Persia, if anybody sees this that didn't know that detail.  I personally don't believe that with the defeat of AntiChrist, if that's what the ancient prophecy about a defector Pope is indicating -- I don't believe that this would bring about the Second Coming, but it would indicate Jesus Christ going forth judging in righteousness and truth through the Body of Christ, and that the Body of Christ will experience a period of time of unprecidented prosperity in all areas of life, particularly in the realm of the preached Gospel where the recovery of sinners in the world is concerned.  I don't expect ET Christianity to go into that era.  To me, that's the thousand years, whether literal or figurative in Revelation 20.  And I have no idea what "Greek" thing could come on the horizon, if I turned out to be right about Daniel's prophecies experiencing almost a duplicate fulfillment.  A return to New Testament Greek in the Church would be nice, but Daniel's vision deals with world empires that the Church smashes from the feet up after all of the others have run their course.  Perhaps that this is told to us twice in Daniel, through two different visions, is meant to convey a duplicate fulfillment for those prophecies.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 08:14:15 AM »
It's interesting that this is a statue, "a great and terrible image," of a *man.*

It's head is made of that most precious of metals *gold,* which represents, money--mammon--and the head of the statue is [not the mind of Christ but] [mystery] Babylon.

32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

 33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.


Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome.

Babylon represents the mystery religion, (worship of money, power, satan?), he has the heart (chest) of Persia, a belly full of Greek philosophy (man's thoughts about the world), and legs of iron (Rome) representing a relentless subjugation of all peoples ruled by this system.

The feet are mixed--a house divided cannot stand.

But, still, it is one statue--all of these systems are still in place as long as man (satan) rules instead of God!


Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


"mammon"
G3126
μαμμωνᾶς
mammōnas
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.


28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.--Daniel 2


« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 06:49:07 PM by Molly »

Chris

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 02:24:49 AM »
HI Jabcat!  :hiya:

What catches my attention is the fact that Christ came to be sacrificed "in the end of the world":

Quote
Heb 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus also said that the field was WHITE ALREADY TO HARVEST:

Quote
John 4:34-38

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. SAY NOT YE, THERE ARE YET FOUR MONTHS, AND THEN COMETH HARVEST.?

BEHOLD, I say unto you, LIFT UP YOU EYES AND LOOK ON THE FIELDS; FOR THEY ARE WHITE ALREADY TO HARVEST.

And HE THAT REAPETH receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit UNTO LIFE ETERNAL: that both HE THAT SOWETH AND HE THAT REAPETH may rejoice TOGETHER.

And herein is that saying true, ONE SOWETH, and ANOTHER REAPETH.

I SENT YOU TO REAP

that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and YE ARE ENTERING INTO THEIR LABOURS.

So not only was the field "white already to harvest"... he sent ~them~ TO REAP.


And THE REAPERS ~are~ THE ANGELS:

Quote
Mat 13:36-43

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, lare unto us the parable of the tares of the field

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is THE SON OF MAN; The field is THE WORLD; the good seed are THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM; but the tares are THE CHILDREN OF THE WICKED one;

THE ENEMY that sowed them IS THE DEVIL;

THE HARVEST is THE END OF THE WORLD; and

THE REAPERS are THE ANGELS.

As therefore THE TARES ARE GATHERED and burned in the fire; so shall it be IN THE END OF THE WORLD.

THE SON OF MAN shall send forth HIS ANGELS, and they shall gather out of his kingdom ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND, AND THEM WHICH DO INIQUITY; AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

THEN SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father.

WHO HATH EARS TO HEAR, LET HIM HEAR.

Wasn't Paul received "as an angel of God"?  :OhNo:

Quote
Gal 4:12-14

Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how THROUGH INFIRMITY OF THE FLESH I PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO YOU AT THE FIRST. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me AS AN ANGEL OF GOD, even AS CHRIST JESUS.

There are a whole lot of things that I see connecting to this, as "the stars" (celestial bodies  :gwink:) that are in His right hand are "the angels of the churches"

This all connects to "the resurrection of the dead" (and "how are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come" in 1Co 15:35-56).   :gangel:

Just as ALL FLESH is not the same FLESH; there is A NATURAL BODY and there is A SPIRITUAL BODY.


That which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH and that which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT. (John 3:8)

There is an OUTWARD man and there is an INWARD man. (2Co 4:8-18)

We do not desire to be UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON.

Quote
2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, WE HAVE a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring TO BE CLOTHED UPON with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: NOT FOR THAT WE WOULD BE UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON, that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE.


It is THE SPIRIT that quickeneth, THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING.

Quote
John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

All of these things (and many others) say to me that this is THE END OF THE WORLD and the angels of the Lord have been sent forth TO REAP and to sever the wicked from among the just

Quote
Mat 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

NOW is THE JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD. (John 12:31)

This is just a small part of a much longer study, but I hope it is enough (and not too much  :mblush:) to demonstrate what I see in the scriptures about "the end of the world".

 :Peace:
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 02:26:48 AM by Chris »

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2008, 02:35:45 AM »
Hello;

Philosophy is fine and dandy, however for truth I trust in the bible which has answere that straight forward...

as was already quoted,

Heb 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus' appearance and death and ressurection was the time of the end.

also Peter;

Acts 2:14 "But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;"

Peter said The Day of Pentecost 2000 years ago was the last day!!

Who are we to stammer and argue over such a thing since scripture is point blank.

I mean come on, it's right there!

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2008, 02:45:34 AM »
Hey Dallas, not sure who's stammering or arguing, and I agree, what you've quoted is "right there":iagree:.  Now what do you think it means and fits together with the following "end-time statements"?.  How do you personally carry that view of "the end" forward wrt 1) the judgment, 2) the resurrection, 3) immortality, 4) new heaven and earth, 5) Jesus handing all things to the Father and God being all in all, 6) creation groaning for the revealing..., 7) the Collosians 1:20 "reconciliation of all things in earth/heavens...if the end is past and/or now, when do these things happen...or Willi, if they already have, how do we recognize them/what do they look like?  Again, for example, I bet a lot of people were murdered around the world today...sin obviously isn't gone/everything's not "fixed".  Help a brother out here  :gimmefive:.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 02:47:47 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2008, 08:29:56 AM »
My apprehension with [totally] embracing preterism is that on a certain philosophical level it takes away from me a Bible that speaks to me about my circumstances and about the world around me with a practical hope and blueprint for my faith to walk out through Jesus's High Priestly Ministry until I've inherited a world conformed to His image.  I can never embrace what's called in theology "consistent cessationism" which full preterism would seem to require, which would mean that the ministry gifts are no longer genuine calls and placements in the Body of Christ by Jesus Christ.  I still see a need for Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Bishops, miracle workers, gifts of healings, helps, administrations, etc., etc., etc. as it says in 1Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, and in Paul's pastoral epistles.  And I won't even get into the nature, circumstances, events, and manifestation of Jesus Christ that occured with regards to my own calling by Him to the ministry, and what's happened each step along the way with further and further [deeper] baptisms with the Holy Spirit. 

I can easily make the New Jerusalem out to be the Church.  If I were to embrace a consistent preterism, that's not a hard leap.  I saw an example of total preterism early in my UR studies with Thomas Whittemore's "Plain Guide to Universalism" from 1840 in which he made the lake of fire judgment to be what befell Jerusalem in 70AD.  I balked at the interpretation back then, but on a certain level it makes sense with the upheaval that's been going on in my understanding of eschatology over the last couple of years. 

I never thought that I'd ever come to a point where the "rapture" wasn't the obvious sense of 1Thessalonians 4 and 1Corinthians 15, a couple of passages in Isaiah, and a couple of passages in the Gospels.  But now, from a Biblical perspective, with all of the principles of the Kingdom that it seems in direct opposition to, I can no longer in good faith or in good conscience believe that the Bible teaches any type of rapture that's way prior to the general resurrection of the dead in the period of transition to the New Earth as everything's being engulfed in God at that time period.  And the rapture's more precious than the Blood of Christ to mainstream Christianity in the United States.  Most of them would sooner that I rejected the Blood -- which I emphatically don't -- but they'd prefer that I would rather than to forsake what they've twisted into being the "blessed hope." 

There's a lot of things in mainstream Christianity that are more important than the virgin birth, the sinless life, the blood atonement of Christ, His literal bodily resurrection, the message of repentance unto love and good works, and the promise of Philippians 2 that every knee will bow and every tongue will offer up exuberantly thunderous praise and ovation (Gr: exomologeo, for "confess" in Eng.) that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.  Hell's more important, the rapture and tribulation are generally regarded as more important, tithing's more important, and I could continue down the list of things where if I spoke up in most Churches in disagreement, or with the pastor of those fellowships in private, I'd be thought to be the literal embodiment of Satan -- even if my love and works exceeded those of Mother Teresa.

God would not have had me born into this world without a certain hope of what I was working towards, precise expectations from His Written Word to corroborate all that His Spirit and Jesus's High Priestly Ministry would convey to me, and Biblical tools for seeing the next stage for the Body of Christ come to pass.  I can deal with having a Bible with even 90% to 95% of it's prophecies having already been fulfilled.  That's no problem.  Gives me hope in the veracity of the Written Word and assurance that as every other calling's been fulfilled precisely to God's expectations through His hand being upon the various lives that have gone before me, that I can likewise expect for His purposes in my life through His Written Word and His anointing upon my life to come to pass to the exact letter of prophecy in the Scriptures regarding my place in the Body of Christ and my small portion of Jesus's present ministry in the earth. 

I expect some good things to happen in this life that were foretold from the beginning.  I expect an unprecidented outpouring of His Holy Spirit upon all flesh to a level and degree that's never yet been anticipated by the small expectations of the clergy of their God.  I expect animal oppression and exploitation to be completely resolved in a favorable way towards the animals per beaucoup Scriptures that I won't get into at this point 'cause it's not central to my main, secondary, or tertiary points in this post.  I expect for human longevity to get ridiculous again, by comparison with current estimates on the part of the carnal mind of man.  I expect the elimination of poverty and the global outreach and discipleship with the Written and Preached Prophetic Word to reach unprecidented proportions!  I expect that just as Uganda, the Ukraine, and various other nations have publicly done in the last few years that more every nation will publicly declare Jesus Christ to be Lord of their Nation to the glory of God the Father.  I expect the elimination of diseases to occur both through science and particularly through the manifestations of the Sons of God on a level unseen even in Acts chapter 5 after the second baptism with the Spirit in the previous chapter.

Yes, it is finished, but YHVH-Yireh, i.e. Jehovah shall be seen!

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2008, 09:14:09 AM »
Martincisneros,  :Urock: !!!

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2008, 09:26:57 AM »
Martincisneros,  :Urock: !!!

 Molly, I agree!!  Great, uplifting post!  :trampoline:

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2008, 12:09:33 PM »
Hay jabcat, martin, molly

The major problem you guys are having with the whole idea is that you are trying tounderstand fulfilled kingdom doctrine with unfulfilled kingdom questions. The whole context is out of wack. How many oranges are in the apple basket? Well none, it's an apple basket.

I don' know about preterism for I'm not a preterist, that being said the context of the bible answers itself. Please don't take this rude, for i mean no insult, but you are't reading the bible as a whole in context.

The old covenant is the source to bible context. Let me explain.

I make a covenant with martin to come to my house on Friday and to clean up. If the house is cleaned up on Friday at midnight then I will pay him $100. Martin agrees.

Now if martin comes over Tuesday and cleans and asks for the money I will say no we have to wait until Friday at midnight for the judgement conscearing the stipulations laid out in the agreement.

Because we made an agreement the stipulations must be upheld. If martin showed up saturday and asked for the money he will be too late and will not get paid. The judgement of wether he gets paid is depending on the house being cleaned at Friday at midnight.

Lets say martin show up at midnight, the house is clean and martin gets paid. Then he comes again on Saturday and cleans up and says he wants to get paid. Well he can't use the covenant because it was fulfilled. It's day wa Friday and the judgement was rendered, once it went through it can't be brought up again that covenant has ended. The end has come, it can't be revisited.

Likewise with the old covenant with Israel. God and Israel entered into a covenant that if Israel lived upto the stipulation they would recieve the $100. The consequences were if they didn't live up to the covenant they would be destroyed (explained in Dueteronomy). Thus they waited until the judgement of the fulness of the time came to see if they would recieve the reward or the punishment. Jesus was the end of the covenant, for he cleaned up the house and recieved the $100. Israel was found unfaithful thus they recieved the punishment.

The end came, the end of the old covenant. The judgement of the old covenant upon Israel and the stipulations made in the old agreement.

The end times and the like are all references to the old covenant. There is now a new covenant, and like showing up on Saturday the old covenant has had it's time but it's passed and can't be used again. The new covenant is simple;

Jeremiah 31:31 (Hebrews 8)
   31"(BW)Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a (BX)new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

   32not like the (BY)covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I (BZ)took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My (CA)covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

   33"But (CB)this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "(CC)I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and (CD)I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

   34"They will (CE)not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all (CF)know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will (CG)forgive their iniquity, and their (CH)sin I will remember no more."


This is the great covenant we live in! Iniquity forgiven, sin nolonger remembered, all knowing God in deep intimate relation. That's it, the whole new covenant.

Luke 22 tells us straight, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

This happened, and like Hebrews 8 proclaims the old is obsolete and the new covenant reigns.



Your questions are people under the new covenant thinking they are under the old.

I hope that brings some context.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 12:13:49 PM by Dallas »

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 06:31:18 PM »
Awesome Post Chris-sie. :icon_flower:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

Blessings :icon_flower:
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 05:30:17 PM »
I don't know if this will be of any help or not, but until the whole body of Christ is crucified there still remains prophesy concerning Christ yet unfulfilled.


Colossians 1:24

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind/lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:


There was nothing lacking in Jesus afflictions He paid the full price correct?

Christ is not just the HEAD/JESUS but a many membered body, all prophesy concerning Christ must also be concerning the body and not just the head.



Genesis 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Romans 16:19-20
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.



Hebrews 2:8-9

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Why do we not see all things put in subjection to Christ?


Because we are the FEET and all things will not be put under subjection until the FEET are made manifest to the world.

But what do we see? We see Jesus the HEAD of the BODY of CHRIST.

Those scriptures do not pertains to Jesus Christ ALONE but to EVERY member of the BODY of CHRIST.

Until the FEET are formed the subjection of all things CANNOT take place.

Thus this prophesy will not be completed until the manifestation of the feet company.

God bless

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 06:35:07 PM »
Beautiful posts on the Questions thread, everyone.  Beautiful post WillieH!

Thank you for an eternal perspective.  I'm not there, yet.  I'm waiting for what Pneuma just named, the manifestation of the sons of God.  I ask myself, How much longer will people allow evil to increase before they stand up on the feet---the foundation--given to them in Christ and say, 'No more.'

How much longer?

I agree with PT in this respect.  All of creation is groaning in anticipation for man to put an end to evil.



Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[f] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.--Hebrews 11

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 10:33:20 AM »
The major problem you guys are having with the whole idea is that you are trying tounderstand fulfilled kingdom doctrine with unfulfilled kingdom questions. The whole context is out of wack....Please don't take this rude, for i mean no insult, but you are't reading the bible as a whole in context........The old covenant is the source to bible context. Let me explain.....Your questions are people under the new covenant thinking they are under the old....I hope that brings some context.

So, are you calling the Old Testament greater light than the New Testament?  Because as I understand things, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.  There's not a single thing that I'd personally said in my previous post that was contrary to all that Christ has fulfilled thus far in having taken away the sin of the world.  I was referring to the good things to come in each of our lives.  Sin doesn't exist any more as an issue between God and man.  Man can still sin against man, though not with eternal consequences.  Man can still wound his own conscience, though not with eternal consequences.  Acts chapter 2 is actually best translated "This is the beginning of that which was spoken through the prophet Joel, that in the last days I'll pour out My Spirit...."  There were last days with regards to the Mosaic order, and there are last days with regards to the Kingdom of Christ, because after the resurrection, judgment, and restoration of all to God, then we move into the state where God is all in all in a way that He evidently wasn't all in all previously, according to 1Corinthians 15:28, inspite of the fact that all would know Him and He had taken away the sin of the world.  All things are under Him, but we do not yet see all things under Him, according to Hebrews.  According to Psalm 110, He's seated at God's right hand UNTIL all of His enemies are made His footstool.  If He's still seated there, then all enemies are not yet His footstool, and though much has been fulfilled -- there are yet other things that each of us were sent into the world to fulfill; to drink the cup that's been given to us; to preach the Gospel yet again to a Creation that's already had the Gospel preached to it, according to Paul in Colossians 1.  The Jeremiah 31:31-34 covenant isn't the only Covenant that was yet to be ratified.  Oh....I'm not going to go there here, 'cause I'm respecting Gary Amirault's space and our differences, but there are other things that have only come into ratification with the beginning of this new century.  All based upon the Blood of Christ without a doubt, but that "seal" [for want of a better word] hadn't been opened yet until recently.

No one here has argued that sin hasn't been put away.  There are just other things in the Old Testament prophets than the putting away of sin and the elimination of the Mosaic order.  Moses is as much of a non-issue as the very sin that his law was the strength of.  But there are still progressive layers of the sting of death that are being remedied.  Though Muslims have the same promise of joint heirship with Christ as we do, they emphatically have not reconciled themselves to God by acknowledging that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them, according to 2Corinthians 5:19-21 and Romans 10:9-10.  But they continue in circumcision just as the Jews, and according to St. Paul those who continue in circumcision as an attempt at a covenant with God are fallen from grace.  Those falls have to be remedied by fervent intercessory prayer, sound doctrine, and evangelistic endeavor with the demonstration of power and the Holy Spirit.  2Corinthians 5:18 was written by an Apostle who very well knew and preached repeatedly the Jeremiah 31 fulfillment in the Blood of Christ, yet he said that we've been given the ministry of reconciliation.  That's the primary ministry of every believer, in addition to the specifics that Christ assigns to each individual that He determines to have additional things to assign to them.  If He does, He does; if He doesn't, He doesn't.  Doesn't make one believer less loved than another.  The more presentable parts of the Body cover for those that stay covered and discrete with just the basics.  People are less worried about a pimple or a wart on their nose than they are about one on their....AHEM! :laughing7: 

St. Paul's illustration, not mine :dontknow:

Destiny was always bigger than the destruction of the old order, the removal of the filth of the flesh, and the restoration of a good conscience towards God.  There's so much more that each of us can walk out to victory!  The New explains the Old rather than the other way around 'cause St. Paul calls the New a mystery which was hid from ages and generations, but is now made manifest.  The opening verses of Hebrews chapter 1 attest to the same GREATER revelation through the Son than through the Old.  The New fulfills the Old, but the New explains the Old:  "you have heard it said..., but I say unto you..."

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 11:41:38 AM »
The main thing that I wanted to post when I wound up posting my last post instead, and what I couldn't post with my last post because I wanted the clear distinction between my saying this and addressing that is that, as I've been thinking through everything that I've come to believe, one thing that's been becoming increasingly clear to me over the last 7 years -- shockingly clear!  Disarmingly clear!!  Revolutionarily clear!!! -- is that any system of Biblical interpretation that doesn't bring out both the total triumphant victory of the Blood of Christ and of His reign, while still preserving the never-ending love story between God and each individual MUST NECESSARILY be regarded as DAMNABLE HERESY.

Nothing else accounts for all of the wisdom, power, and promises of the Scriptures.  The Holy Spirit and the Blood of Jesus Christ won't testify to anything else.  Test 'em and see :HeartThrob:

Not sure about a new area of Scriptural studies that you've launched into or are thinking about getting into?  You'll know you're still on the true path when you're still able to see within clear view the total triumphant victory of the Blood of Christ and of His reign, while still preserving the never-ending love story between God and each individual.  When the victory of the Blood of Christ, His reign and High Priesthood, and His ultimate romance in each life is getting a little cloudy to your understanding, then you've wandered into the area where it's just Satan quoting Scripture to you with his sinister distortions of intent being interwoven throughout to lead you astray.

True and undefiled theology is the study of the symbiotic and homeostatic relationship between God and the entirety of His Creation.  If it would bring eternal illness, eternal heart break, or eternal loss to God or to any part of the Creation, you haven't seen the big picture yet.  If anything you're looking at ultimately leads to God ending up with less of His Creation than He started with, then you're just looking at religious misinformation rather than at the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Each "subject-window" that I look out of [in the Scriptures] into the glory of God all reveals the same glory.

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2008, 06:59:39 AM »
Quote
Thank you for an eternal perspective.  I'm not there, yet.  I'm waiting for what Pneuma just named, the manifestation of the sons of God.
-Molly

Well...here you go I stand before you today a son of God revealed by the glory and majesty of Christ. I whom once was unseen, hidden within my sin was manifested, revealed to all of creation...because of Christ.

Martin-
Quote
Not sure about a new area of Scriptural studies that you've launched into or are thinking about getting into?  You'll know you're still on the true path when you're still able to see within clear view the total triumphant victory of the Blood of Christ and of His reign, while still preserving the never-ending love story between God and each individual.  When the victory of the Blood of Christ, His reign and High Priesthood, and His ultimate romance in each life is getting a little cloudy to your understanding, then you've wandered into the area where it's just Satan quoting Scripture to you with his sinister distortions of intent being interwoven throughout to lead you astray.

Well you got me all figured out then, guess I haven nothing to say then.

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2008, 09:42:37 PM »
Thinking last night (I'll admit it, I was listening to Coast-To-Coast AM w/George Norry [Art Bell]) and a thought (re)crystalized for me.  Disclaimer:  I COULD BE WRONG AND I HOPE I AM.    Without all the labels of dispensationalism, Kingdom Theology, Preterism, etc.....here's my thought.  That much of what the "church" has said for years may be true, i.e., that things are going to get worse...much worse, before they get better.  Better as in "the return of Jesus and His physical, kingdomly/new heaven/new earth reign".  The triggering thoughts being;
Iran is focusing on wiping Israel off the face of the earth;
they (radical Muslims) will never accept Israel's existence;
are entrenched in the deceit/apostacy that they are destined to rule and reign and that their Messiah will return "from a well" either following or hinging upon an armegeddon;
are developing nuclear weapons and already have missiles that will reach Tel Aviv;
they test fired them yesterday and bragged about it;
Israel won't take this lying down and we (the USA) are apparently already considering war with Iran;
Ezekiel (possibly) speaks of an "armegeddon" in the Middle East in which 1/3 of mankind will be killed;
the Bible speaks of a "great falling away" and "will the Son of Man find faith on the earth, etc., etc...


I'm tempted to accept the preterist/Kingdom POV that things will keep getting better as Jesus is revealed  IN THIS LIFETIME, but down deep, I'm just really doubting that will be the case, i.e., prior to His physical return to abide with us.  However, the revealing of the Manifest Sons of God must come into play there somewhere...in this dispensation though, or "after His return"?

 :dontknow:.  James.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2008, 10:59:42 PM »
Hi Jab, to answer your question directly instead of taking a shot gun approach to this whole dismal situation--

I am hoping we can rely on the certain and sure interpretation in Daniel, that the sons of God will rise up and put a stop to the nonsense of men.  I am believing more and more that the return of Jesus will be with the hosts of the sons standing up to tell the truth.  Imagine hundreds of thousands of Christs standing on the earth, all speaking with one voice.

But, as things stand right now, not many seem interested in any sort of truth about anything.  It's going to take a miracle, which should suit God just fine.





44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


--Daniel 2


As far as armegeddon is concerned, my understanding is that does not happen until after the 1000 year reign of Christ.  Do you have any read on that?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 04:41:00 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: The End of the World
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2008, 05:02:03 AM »
Here we go--the order of events--which seem to contradict what all the rapture- ready Christians believe at the moment--

First satan is thrown into the pit--(not soon enough for me)--


1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
--Rev 20



Then the thousand year reign of Christ and the saints--

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. --Rev 20

This is the first resurrection--

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.--Rev 20

Then the battle of Armageddon--after the thousand year reign is over--



7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
--Rev 20


Then the devil cast into the lake of fire--and the white throne judgment--


10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
--Rev 20



So my read of that is that Armageddon  is not happening until after Christ has reigned on earth 1000 years.

Has Christ reigned on earth 1000 years, yet?  If not, the rapture ready Christians better give up their plans to usher in Armageddon  in order to usher in the return of Christ.  They might find out that all they end up with is more sorrow and war.