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Lamentation

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« on: September 10, 2008, 11:17:50 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 04:17:09 AM by Brian »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: In a nutshell.
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2008, 11:33:10 PM »
Hi L,

Sound like questions I have asked. (me newbie)

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What kind of punishment is involved in 'And these shall go away to punishment age-during.' Matthew 25:46 (YLT)
Exactly what and how nowone knows I think. But I see it as a cleaning proces. Not torture. Like teaching/convicing you that love is the only way to absolute happiness. But I don't think it's easy walk in the park.

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What did the Jews conceptualize when Jesus talked about being thrown into gehenna?
Disgrace. Gehanna is the garbage dump where bodies of dead crimanls where burned.

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What does "where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched" Mark 9:46 (YLT) mean?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3191.0

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What is the Lake of Fire?
I think that's is God.
Jesus is often said to be a Lamb, a fisher of men.
God is linked to fire. Corrective and teaching fire. Not torture fire. Spiritual fire.



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Am I right in assuming that I'll go through the whole Thousand years reign of Christ on earth, before the White Throne Judgment takes palce?
Depends if you are a sinner or not AFAIK



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The candid historian Robertson gives an accurate statement of
Origen's eschatology, with references to his works, as follows: "All
punishment, he holds, is merely corrective and remedial, being
ordained in order that all creatures may be restored to their original
perfection. At the resurrection all mankind will have to pass through a
fire; the purged spirits will enter into Paradise, a place of training for
the consummation; the wicked will remain in the 'fire,' which, however,
is not described as material, but as a mental and spiritual misery. The
matter and food of it, he says, are our sins, which, when swollen to the
height, are inflamed to become our punishment; and the outer
darkness is the darkness of ignorance. But the condition of these
spirits is not without hope, although thousands of years may elapse
before their suffering shall have wrought its due effect on them. On the
other hand, those who are admitted into Paradise may abuse their
free will, as in the beginning, and may consequently be doomed to a
renewal of their sojourn in the flesh. Every reasonable creature-even
Satan himself-may be turned from evil to good, so as not to be
excluded from salvation."



For me the books on the main site helped a lot. In case you overlooked them:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: In a nutshell.
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 11:53:44 PM »
What did the Jews conceptualize when Jesus talked about being thrown into gehenna?
The local city dump of Jerusalem.  Jesus was threatening the judgments of 70AD and not anything related to an afterlife in ""Hell""

What does "where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched" Mark 9:46 (YLT) mean?
Another reference to Gehenna that was the city dump of Jerusalem and how nasty it was.  It was a threat of the impending 70AD judgments.  Gehenna isn't the example of eonian (or age-lasting) fire.  Jude's epistle says that that's Sodom and Gomorrah and they're saved in Ezekiel 16:53-55 and enjoying the New Earth after the White Throne Judgment.  Although, Jesus did say that they'd stand in judgment against the generation that He was ministering to, so they might have been among those saved immediately after His crucifixion when it says in Peter's epistles that Jesus ministered to those that were disobedient in the days of Noah, so that having been judged in the flesh, they could now live to God.  Because Jerusalem's judgment day that Jesus warned about was in 70AD and the events leading up to that.  So, how else would Jesus' comments have been immediately relevant to that generation unless Sodom and Gomorrah were going to be able to give testimony in the near future from when He spoke as to the fact that they repented at the preaching of Jesus Christ in the underworld and Jerusalem didn't?!  Peter's epistle wasn't deliberately meant as a chronicling of all that Jesus did in His disembodied state, but it was a sermon that he was sending.  Which of us have ever told of all of the works of Christ in any one of our sermons?  So, Jesus' preaching to Noah's generation wasn't necessarily the extent of His preaching.  But they were singled out as an example of absolute wickedness of the flesh, yet of the deepest, tender mercies of the Redeemer.

What kind of punishment is involved in 'And these shall go away to punishment age-during.' Matthew 25:46 (YLT)
It's the 1Corinthians 5 fire where our works are judged by fire.  The sheep/goats/devil/his angels  parable is talking about works and not faith from start to finish.  It doesn't have to relate to the afterlife at all.  Contextually, since Jesus was talking previously in Matthew 24 about all of the evils that would befall that generation of unbelieving Jews, then we're talking about the Jews having been thrown out of their land and being sent to all areas of the Romans Empire, being sold into Egyptian slavery as Deuteronomy 28 had warned them, and other evils that befell them.

What is, the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth mean?
It's the punishment that befell Israel that St. Paul gets into in Romans chapters 9 to 11.  Jesus had said that the Kingdom would go to the Gentiles that would bare it's fruit while the sons of the Kingdom, i.e. Israel, would be cast out for their unbelief.  Again, this was talking about God's temporary judgments/blindness upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

What is the Lake of Fire?
It's more purification fire that is related to our works and not our faith, because in Revelation 20 it says that everyone's works are being judged, just as it says in 1Corinthians 5 and Matthew 25's parable.  Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works and by fire, although 1Corinthians 5 mentions being saved by fire and one of Peter's epistles mentions firey trials that show the genuineness of our faith and praise.

I used to listen to a TV Bible teacher who "rightly divided the Word" and "didn't adhere to the traditions of men." He said that everyone who didn't have the chance to accept Christ, will be given that opportunity during Christ's Millennial reign. Is that something taught in UR/US?
People are never separated from the ability to embrace the Lordship of Jesus.  Philippians 2 says that every knee will bow and every tongue will exhuberantly, thunderously praise and give ovation (Gr: exomologeo for English "confess") that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Am I right in assuming that I'll go through the whole Thousand years reign of Christ on earth, before the White Throne Judgment takes palce?
There's much diversity of opinion amongst us as to the nature and timing of the judgments, the millenium, etc.  But the thousand year reign on earth does preceed the White Throne Judgment.  Not all of us believe that Revelation 19 is the second coming, but that's an entirely different subject that you can look through in your own timing on the book of Revelation board at this forum.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 12:17:56 AM by martincisneros »

martincisneros

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Re: In a nutshell.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 12:47:38 AM »
I wasn't wanting to get too far, too quick in sharing with you while you're in the season that you mentioned and perhaps have additional questions once you've seen some answers to your first questions, either from what's already been said or just additional questions you might care to bring up.  But this may help as well, and I neglected to post it with my first post.

When you examine the context of each of the times that "Gehenna" comes up in the Scriptures, Jesus is chasing someone over a wrong paradigm, wrong teachings, wrong thinking, wrong beliefs about Him, etc.  So, while Matthew 25, 1Corinthians 5, Tartarus in Peter's epistles, and the Lake of Fire seem to be about works, Gehenna is about the usage of your words to others, that James 3 says set on fire the course of nature with the fires of Gehenna.

It's sufficient to prove: the limited duration of each, that the abolishment of death in 1Corinthians 15 would include "the Second Death," and that all of the promises of both destruction AND restoration must be fulfilled so that God will ultimately be all in all, according to 1Corinthians 15:28: not all in a few, or all in an elect, or all in most, but all in all. 

But I personally am having growing reservations as to whether there's any afterlife punishments at all, because "age" just means "age" and can be as short as 3 days as in the "forever" that Jonah was in the belly of the fish.  "Ages of ages" isn't necessarily much longer than that in it's usage in the Septuignt because Isaiah 34 has two different "forever and ever" judgments that don't overlap, and that happened rather quickly, and that obviously ended ages ago.  First the land is given over to fire "forever and ever" and then it's given over to all kinds of weird animals that I guess at the time would have made the land less desireable or perhaps in other ways severely problematic "forever and ever."  Yet, it's very clear that both of those judgments ended ages ago.

But the judgments break down into:

Sheol/Hades which are simply the grave;

Gehenna is about false beliefs, false doctrines, wrong paradigms, etc., etc.

Tartarus, Matthew 25, 1Corinthians 5, and the Lake of Fire all seem like judgments related to our works.

And in the Old Testament the way that "afterlife punishments" would often seem to work themselves out would be in people's descendants and what would befall communities after people were gone.  The principle of the sins being visited to the third and fourth generation seems to me to be the equivalent of "not forgiven in this age or in the age to come."

That's just where I'm at, though many still believe in afterlife punishments culminating in all being restored to God through Jesus Christ.

Another passage that might occur to you is about not fearing those that can destroy the body only, but to fear him that can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.  The KJV and other translations that by their own admission follow in it's traditions will capitalize the "Him" to fear that can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, but I believe that the "Him" should not be capitalized because again it's "tradition" on the passage.  And Jesus, anticipating the misunderstanding about His Words in future generations, immediately contrasted what He was saying to the crowds about the Pharisees and their doctrines with the love and tenderness of the Father.  He immediately said something different about our Father.  So although our heavenly Father from the perspective of power, rights, and whatever else "could" destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, there's not much in the New Testament to say that He deliberately would even "temporarily."  They were all warnings about what would be the natural outcome of a continued life of disobedience and unbelief, that they "would not enter into His rest" where this life would be concerned.  And while they were in this life persisting in unbelief and disobedience, things were just going to go downhill fast!

Inheriting God's kingdom is about inheriting God's Way of dominion, and not an eschatological (i.e. "end-times") event.  Romans 5 says that those that have received the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness are able to reign in this life through Jesus Christ.  Some are inheriting the kingdom, through walking the spiritual way of Jesus Christ rather than through the flesh and blood distinctives of who they were born to or whatever, and some are in danger of not inheriting the Kingdom.  If you don't inherit the Kingdom, then you're simply inherited as a part of the Kingdom.  And if there are future ages to set additional layers of Creation free, from Hell or from other areas of darkness or areas that they're burning in anxiety, cares, etc., etc., then if you've not inherited then you either might not have much to do during that process or will simply find it much more difficult since this age prepares the way for the next one.