Submerged Chaos / The Abyss

[Tim B]

Luke 8:31 (Concordant Literal Version)

30 Now Jesus inquires of him, saying, "What is your name?" Now he said, "Legion," for many demons entered into him.
31 And they entreated Him that He should not enjoin them to be coming away into the submerged chaos.
32 Now a considerable herd of hogs was there, grazing on the mountain, and they entreat Him that He should permit them to be entering into those. And He permits them.

b]Luke 8:30-32 (Young's Literal Translation)[/b]

 30And Jesus questioned him, saying, `What is thy name?' and he said, `Legion,' (because many demons were entered into him,)

 31and he was calling on him, that he may not command them to go away to the abyss,

 32and there was there a herd of many swine feeding in the mountain, and they were calling on him, that he might suffer them to enter into these, and he suffered them,

It's also mentioned a bunch in Revelation: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=abyss&version1=31&searchtype=all

Does anybody know anything about what the submerged chaos/abyss is that these verses speak of?

Oh, BTW, submerged chaos just sounds kind of awesome. 

[jabcat]

A couple more mentions that each seem a little different than the other;

1) Rev. 9:11 "they have a king over them - the messenger of the submerged chaos. His Hebrew name is Abaddon, and in Greek he has the name Apollyon (destroyer)."
Rev 9:14 "God, saying to the sixth messenger who has the trumpet, 'Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates.' And loosed were the four messengers, made ready for the hour, and day, and month, and year, that they should be killing a third of mankind."

2) Gen 1:2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos.

 
This smacks a bit of mainstream, but still some interesting pieces of information;

a-bis', (he abussos): In classical Greek the word is always an adjective, and is used (1) literally, "very deep," "bottomless"; (2) figuratively, "unfathomable," "boundless." "Abyss" does not occur in the King James Version but the Revised Version (British and American) so transliterates abussos in each case. The the King James Version renders the Greek by "the deep" in two passages (Lk 8:31; Rom 10:7). In Revelation the King James Version renders by "the bottomless pit" (Rev 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3). In the Septuagint abussos is the rendering of the Hebrew word tehom. According to primitive Semitic cosmogony the earth was supposed to rest on a vast body of water which was the source of all springs of water and rivers (Gen 1:2; Dt 8:7; Ps 24:2; 136:6). This subterranean ocean is sometimes described as "the water under the earth" (Ex 20:4; Dt 5:8). According to Job 41:32 tehom is the home of the leviathan in which he plows his hoary path of foam. The Septuagint never uses abussos as a rendering of sheol (= Sheol = Hades) and probably tehom never meant the "abode of the dead" which was the ordinary meaning of Sheol. In Ps 71:20 tehom is used figuratively, and denotes "many and sore troubles" through which the psalmist has passed (compare Jon 2:5). But in the New Testament the word abussos means the "abode of demons." In Lk 8:31 the King James Version renders "into the deep" (Weymouth and The Twentieth Century New Testament = "into the bottomless pit"). The demons do not wish to be sent to their place of punishment before their destined time. Mark simply says "out of the country" (5:10). In Rom 10:7 the word is equivalent to Hades, the abode of the dead. In Revelation (where the King James Version renders invariably "the bottomless pit") abussos denotes the abode of evil spirits, but not the place of final punishment; it is therefore to be distinguished from the "lake of fire and brimstone" where the beast and the false prophet are, and into which the Devil is to be finally cast (Rev 19:20; 20:10).

 

[Molly]

"abyss"

G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.

The word is made from

G1
Α
A
al'-fah
Of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet: figuratively only (from its use as a numeral) the first. Often used (usually "an", before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from G427) in the sense of privation; so in many words beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of G260): - Alpha.

and

G1037
βυθός
buthos
boo-thos'
A variation of G899; depth, that is, (by implication) the sea: - deep.


G899
βάθος
bathos
bath'-os
From the same as G901; profundity, that is, (by implication) extent; (figuratively) mystery: - deep (-ness, things), depth.



2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

--Gen 1



"the deep"

H8415
תּהם    תּהום
tehôm tehôm
teh-home', teh-home'
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): - deep (place), depth.


H1949
הוּם
hûm
hoom
A primitive root (compare H2000); to make an uproar, or agitate greatly: - destroy, move, make a noise, put, ring again.



And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

--Rev 9:11

[Molly]

Hey,  we posted the same thing at the same time, 1:11.

 

[jabcat]

I knew it was close.  And what are you doing up? 

[sheila]

  Hi Guys;

   I see it as any kind of spiritual

prisonhouse...well,cistern,prison,hole,pit,chasm/abyss/

   bottomless

  Jeremiah was placed in a spiritual prisonhouse/a cistern..for

 speaking the word of God. So was Joseph

   Jesus told His church that they would put them in prison and

  try them 10 days...

  it is a place of spiritual restraint..whether good spirit or bad

   It is only justice that satan be placed in a spiritual

 prisonhouse,for he has spiritually imprisoned mankind.

  the arrogant dig pitfalls for me,contrary to your law


   A prostitute is a deep pit./Babylon a cage of unclean demons

    He who digs a pit,he will fall into it


   Zechariah 9;11  As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant

 I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no

 water.

   a spiritual holding place..awaiting release or  execution of

   judgement , both,in some cases

   my

   

[Molly]

I see it as any kind of spiritual

prisonhouse...well,cistern,prison,hole,pit,chasm/abyss/

bottomless

Evil is bottomless--It's freefall without a foundation, nothing under your feet to keep you from falling eternally into blacker blackness.  Just when you think it can't get any worse, it gets worse, there is no end to it.

For the only sure foundation is Christ.

[jabcat]

Dear Molly, I think I see the intent of what you're saying, and it is in essence a good, helpful one.  The abyss is not a good place or one in which we want to be.  But if I tip my head just a little bit to the side I do get a little different view that comes to me with regard to evil and the darkness and deep.  I believe it in fact does have an end, and at the very end of its (our) rope, God is the One Who sets the limits - since He is the One ultimately in control.  In one restricted sense, the end of evil is death.  And He has of course, as we both agree, made the provision for that.  Cleansing and deliverance unto life!   

As you say, "For the only sure foundation is Christ." 

I don't want to go there, been in the dark more than I wanted;  but as David said, "If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."  Psalm 139:8

Isn't God good?  And way more than we can fathom!

[Beloved Servant]

Good one Jab.
He is closer than the very blood in our veins.
John 17:


23) I in them and You in Me, in order that they may become one and perfectly united, that the world may know and definitely recognize that You sent Me and that You have loved them even as You have loved Me.

[jabcat]

Amen.  He's my breath.

[Beloved Servant]

Jab, you just brought a tear to my eye. Wonderful.

[jabcat]

I read the Luke 8 passage about the "submerged chaos" this morning in the CLV, and came back to this thread.

As well documented and IMO, the word "hell" is a mistranslation, and according to some scholars, the whole concept of an eternal punishment came from various pagan influences - and then was placed (Dark Age Roman Church influence) into much of our translations, interpretations, and thinking and teaching.   One of the earliest claimed influences regarding eternal torment came from the Zoroastrian religion, when in 586 BCE, Judah was annexed by Babylonia and the Persian eunuch Nehemiah and the priest Ezra were sent by the Persian kings to Judah supposedly to teach the Jews about their own religion.

However, not all, but many believers in UR also believe in an afterlife accounting and corrective punishment/discipline, bringing the unrepentant to a place of repentance and confession of Jesus as Lord.  ("works burned, himself saved so as by fire", "few stripes/many stripes", etc. - many threads about this, no need to rehash it all).  Gary recounts after being saved, he was taken to a "very dark, unpleasant place" and if I understand, allowed to experience something he felt to be a taste of being "on the other side (temporarily) without a relationship with Jesus".   I believe he said it was something he never wanted to experience again.

So anyway, "eternal hell" aside, reading the Luke passage again caught my attention, that the spirits preferred to stay in this realm, even living in a pig, rather than go to the "submerged chaos".   It also reminded me of Jesus going and proclaiming, leading captivity captive, those disobedient in the days of Noah.  They were apparently being held somewhere, until Jesus' blood was literally shed. 

I have personally come to believe that most if not ALL of God's dealings with people in the OT, prior to the cross, had to do with the  temporal - earthly punishments and rewards.  They were not warned of "do this or that, or you will spend eternity in heaven or hell".   They would not inherit rewards, or see the earthly promised land, etc.  They would die.   Then again, it seems Jesus went with the keys to the holding place and unlocked the door for those being held up to that time.

OK, any new thoughts on this? 

*(I guess "new" could mean, "not what I've always been taught and come to accept as this must be the truth", but rather, through prayer,  is there something here AT LEAST worth thinking about and asking God to really show us a deeper layer than tradition may have taught us).   I'm coming to believe there are many things below the surface of "our" usual understandings, and only God can show us according to His will, and that it helps to be open TO HIM, seek Him, ask Him to help us see.  You know, if that's the case, seems to me that really leaves little room for arguing and debating, but more of sharing, thinking, studying together, digging deeper to see what's there - rather than just trying to prove "I'm right, you're wrong".     

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter".    There is unity in the crucified and risen Christ!  Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord WILL BE SAVED!   

[shawn]

I can only speak of how I understand these kinds of verses with my current understanding.  But, God knows I am open to new ways of thinking.  It's this particular passage that always gives me hestitation with thinking about satan or demons as mere aspects of our carnal nature.  I take this as a literal story.  If this was just the carnal nature, why did it ask to be cast into pigs?

Right now, I believe demons and satan to be real entities and I believe there are realms in which they reside and function.  The submerged chaos would be one of those realms.  I too believe it's a temporary holding place.  It's certainly a place they didn't want to go.  I do not think it connotes eternal suffering or necessarily a holding place until eternal suffering begins.

[jabcat]

 

[shawn]

As soon as I wrote that post, I remembered something that came to me while I was driving today.

Natural thinking=base thinking, selfish, fight or flight=animalistic

Spiritual thinking= Lofty, higher thinking, Love God with all your heart mind and soul, love neighbor as self, selfless, patient, kind=Godly

"For dust you are, and to dust you shall return." — Gen 3:19

Mix that with what Molly was saying and it's really something to think about.

[Nathan]

I lean toward what Sheila put and Molly actually grazed it as well.  The reason why I struggle so much trying to explain demons and devils is because to accept them as literal, they are connected to a literal satan, which is connected to a literal hell . . .and that is where I have the problem . . the literal hell is no longer a part of my belief in the sense of torment and suffering . .

I do know that in the end of that experience . . .the guy was "delivered" but more importantly it literally states he was in his "right mind" . . .which once again brings me around to the prisons of carnality . . . my body is my prison . . .my spirit has capabilities that my body can't fathom.  My mind is bottomless . . .even when my body is sleeping, my mind never ends, it never sleeps, it just goes into another mode so my body can rest, but the mind never does . . .it's an abyss.

[Molly]

The abyss is not the human mind, although secular atheists like Sigmund Freud tried to equate it with such.  Hence his theory of an unconsious mind desiring all kinds of unholy things related usually to aggression and sex.  I think it is more likely that he was sharing his own unholy desires with us through a cocaine haze.  Unfortunately, his influence on 20th century thinking was huge.

Don't look for the abyss in the mind of man, although man can fall prey to it and be overcome by it.  The abyss is independent of man, a fact that a four year old might be more in touch with than his more worldly parents.

The dark does scare us, but Christ is light.

[jabcat]

I agree the mind can be as an abyss, and I imagine there are layers and applications to ferret out - much to learn.  But as Shawn said, those demons wanted to go into the pigs, rather than go into the abyss.  I know I see it differently than some of my dear brothers and sisters, but I personally don't see that as "don't send us into a mind".   Also, Jesus seems to have gone to a place where people were being held, to proclaim to them.   Interesting comments on Freud.  I've consciously  bought into VERY LITTLE of what he's had to say, yet his lingo lingers in our thoughts and vocabulary for sure.  Anyone here ever talk about 'ego'?   

[Molly]

The word abyss as the first-- depth, mystery, basis, foot....

We start with a bottomless pit, no footing, no basis, no bottom to it--this is what it is like without Christ.

I have watched man over the years test for a bottom to evil, as any student of history and violent crime--there is no bottom to it, they just keep falling and falling deeper and deeper.  Men search for the end to the depth of it until they are overcome by it.

There are those who are fascinated by doing deeds of evil, as though to control it, but, in the end, evil always wins.  This is the deception of the ego--that I can control this, take it just so far and no further, stop it, handle it, overcome it.

No man can overcome evil but Christ.

[jabcat]

It seems you're saying there definitely is a condition, or "as" regarding the abyss.  I agree, as in, "the mind is as...".    I liken this to Jesus talking symbollically about men being sepulchars (sp?), open tombs, etc.  They were not literally so, they were "as".  However, there still were literally tombs/graves.  As I was typing this, I was going to say that I still believe there's a place, a literal abyss.  But then I think, well, it could be just a condition, but then if so, "where" were those "waiting" who were disobedient in the days of Noah?  Hmmm.... this gets trickier.     It was described centuries ago as the "underworld, depths of the earth", etc.  But really?  The actual, literal underneath of the earth?  Or rather another dimension of holding or waiting, again, having to do with a "condition"? 

I'm going to look at Gary's "Ever Been To Hell and Back?" on the main page to see how he experienced it - as strictly on a spiritual level, or if he believes he was actually someplace...

[Molly]

Here's a quotation from Gary's article.  I see the abyss the way he does--as something 'out there' that is so terrifying that one cannot face it.  I had a similar experience to the one he describes.



'It has been stated earlier that there are those who have had very hellish near-death experiences and dreams and visions who after careful study and reflection came away with the belief that God will eventually save everyone. I am one of those. Shortly after my conversion I had two weeks of very hellish experiences. Three times during those two weeks I consciously went into a pit of darkness that was so awful that I could not have continued to live if I were to have those experiences for any significant length of time. I would have gone insane and attempted suicide if I had to endure much more of what I experienced. When the scriptures speak of a "bottomless pit," and "outer darkness," my experiences add a whole new dimension to those words. These terrifying experiences caused me to dig into certain portions of scripture much deeper that I would have had I not had those experiences. Yet after reflecting on those experiences -- after digging deeply into the scriptures and through other experiences with God, I came away with the belief that all mankind would ultimately be saved through the Cross of Jesus Christ. I am not the only person who came away with such a glorious thought after having some very hellish experiences.

--Gary Amirault



Jesus talks about the man who has allowed this outer darkness to overtake him internally.

Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

[jabcat]

Thanks for finding this.

So how would you personally differentiate this from "just being the mind"?  It's being a little elusive for me.  I'm thinking, certainly outside forces involved, taking us into a condition/situation - a state of being - but still not "just in the mind".  Again though, I'm finding it hard to nail down. 

[Molly]

All I can say from my own experience is that the abyss is 'out there.'  It's not internal.  It's only internal to the point that we are susceptible to it and allow it to be internalized.

It is a total darkness with no bottom.  That's the easiest description.

You see the 20th century existentialists playing with these ideas--there is no God,  no right, no wrong, no reason to do one thing or another--that is the notion of anarchy without God--which they consider freedom, and I consider death.  The Bible talks about this as the mystery of iniquity [2Thess 2:7].


[mystery of] "iniquity"

G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.


There is a whole school of existentialist teachings that have embraced this darkness in the 20th Century.

If the abyss is bottomless, Jesus gives us a literal footing.    He is our foundation in the most literal sense.  The faith of Christ is the unmoving substance--hupostasis-- on which we stand.


[faith is the] "substance" [Heb 11:1]

G5287
ὑπόστασις
hupostasis
hoop-os'-tas-is
From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident, person, substance.

[jabcat]

 

[shawn]

The word abyss as the first-- depth, mystery, basis, foot....

We start with a bottomless pit, no footing, no basis, no bottom to it--this is what it is like without Christ.

I have watched man over the years test for a bottom to evil, as any student of history and violent crime--there is no bottom to it, they just keep falling and falling deeper and deeper.  Men search for the end to the depth of it until they are overcome by it.

There are those who are fascinated by doing deeds of evil, as though to control it, but, in the end, evil always wins.  This is the deception of the ego--that I can control this, take it just so far and no further, stop it, handle it, overcome it.

No man can overcome evil but Christ.

Men will continue to fall into the darkness until they are swallowed by the darkness.

While I believe this story is a literal happening there is something more there.  I think there are some symbolic issues I would like to explore with this story. 

I do wonder if this abyss is the same thing as tartaroo.

If demons, satan are more than our own carnal natures which I believe they are...is that why there is a differentiation between Gehenna and Tartaroo.