Submerged Chaos / The Abyss

[shawn]

The word abyss as the first-- depth, mystery, basis, foot....

We start with a bottomless pit, no footing, no basis, no bottom to it--this is what it is like without Christ.

I have watched man over the years test for a bottom to evil, as any student of history and violent crime--there is no bottom to it, they just keep falling and falling deeper and deeper.  Men search for the end to the depth of it until they are overcome by it.

There are those who are fascinated by doing deeds of evil, as though to control it, but, in the end, evil always wins.  This is the deception of the ego--that I can control this, take it just so far and no further, stop it, handle it, overcome it.

No man can overcome evil but Christ.

Men will continue to fall into the darkness until they are swallowed by the darkness.  I envision down into a bottomless pit and seeing someone fall...eventually the darkness would overtake them.

While I believe this story is a literal happening there is something more there.  I think there are some symbolic issues I would like to explore with this story. 

I do wonder if this abyss is the same thing as tartaroo.

If demons, satan are more than our own carnal natures which I believe they are...is that why there is a differentiation between Gehenna and Tartaroo.

[Molly]

This implies that Tartaroo is the Greek word for the Hebrew Gehenna.  Interestingly, there's nothing here about fire for Tartaroo.



 Verse Display - Strong's Number: 5020
Original Word Transliterated Word
  tartaro/w   Tartaroo
Translated Word
  cast down to hell
 
 The KJV Strong's Version - 1 Verse
2Pe 2:4 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


ταρταρόω    from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)
\
 

the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
 

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5020

[Molly]

Again, no fire.


'Jesus spoke of a place of punishment as "outer darkness"' (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).

12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


"outer" [darkness]

G1857
ἐξώτερος
exōteros
ex-o'-ter-os
Compound of G1854; exterior: - outer.


Sorry, I quoted from the NIV which doesn't make this as clear as the King James.

King James actually uses the phrase, 'outer darkness.'

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
--Mat 25

[jabcat]

I've become more and more convinced that next age "fire" is at least mostly spiritual.  I don't know, God may appear as fire, and being in His physical Presence may feel like fire.  He may even have literal fire as part of Himself, I don't know, but I don't believe God, Who is Spirit, needs a physical/literal fire to burn people with - to accomplish a spiritual purpose.   

(Good finds  )

[Molly]

He may even have literal fire as part of Himself...

He does in Ezekiel's vision...


4And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.


26And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

 27And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

 28As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

--Eze 1



And, in John's...



5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

--Rev 4

[jabcat]

I was thinking along those lines Molly, and it may very well be fire.  Another thought I had though was, maybe it appears as fire to the writers, i.e., their perception of the magnificence of God's glory.  I dunno, just thinking/suggesting...

[jabcat]

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Tongues that looked like fire appeared to them. The tongues arranged themselves so that one came to rest on each believer.

King James Bible
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Spiritual, "heavenly" fire, that appears to us as literal fire?     Or maybe there is real, literal fire.    In either case, I don't believe God will burn up peoples' dead works with literal fire, to spiritually cleanse and bring about a spiritual purpose.  (I could be wrong of course.)

[jabcat]

anyway, the abyss, outer darkness, etc.    Gary's and many others' experiences - awful, unpleasant "places" and feelings, but not just tossed into a literally flaming BBQ.

[Molly]

I was thinking along those lines Molly, and it may very well be fire.  Another thought I had though was, maybe it appears as fire to the writers, i.e., their perception of the magnificence of God's glory.  I dunno, just thinking/suggesting...

They do use the literal word for fire plus all sorts of associated words like brilliance, lightning, shining, and brightness.

But, yes, I agree--they are seeing his Glory.

[jabcat]

Amen.  His glory.  Awesome.

As fire (or the possible lack of literal fire) is part of a discussion on the Submerged Chaos, I thought rather than post long excerpts, I'd link to this thread where FineLinen's first 4 posts contain some good information on God's fire.   

  http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/our_god_fire_461.0.html

[jabcat]

His reply #6 is good too.

[WhiteWings]

I agree the mind can be as an abyss,

So only shallow minded people are saved?
 

[jabcat]

Hey, you talkin' to me?   

[Aleax]

"Submerged Chaos" is also a good way to describe what the earth was between Disruption and Re-Creation.

Some interesting stuff here: http://www.godsplanforall.com/preadamicage

An excerpt:

Genesis 1:2 (NIV)
Now the earth was (hayah) formless, and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Since God did not create the earth in a formless, empty, dark and flooded state in the beginning, then it must have become that way at a later date. This is exactly what happened to the earth, because an accurate translation of the Hebrew word hayah in Genesis 1:2 above is became, as given in Strong's H1961, and as confirmed by the NIV in their footnote. 

Young Earth Creationism argues that Genesis 1:2 is the description of a stage in the construction of the earth. It is a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of this verse to believe that God firstly had to create the earth in a formless, empty, dark state and totally submerged under water in order to proceed and complete the rest of His beautiful creation on earth.

The truth of the Bible is that Genesis 1:2 is the description of the earth resulting from God's global judgement because of the sins of angels. It is not speaking about a stage in the construction of the earth, as mistakenly believed by Young Earth Creationists. Let us now have a closer look at Genesis 1:2 to understand that it is indeed a description of God's global judgement.

[Nathan]

The abyss is not the human mind, although secular atheists like Sigmund Freud tried to equate it with such.  Hence his theory of an unconsious mind desiring all kinds of unholy things related usually to aggression and sex.  I think it is more likely that he was sharing his own unholy desires with us through a cocaine haze.  Unfortunately, his influence on 20th century thinking was huge.

Don't look for the abyss in the mind of man, although man can fall prey to it and be overcome by it.  The abyss is independent of man, a fact that a four year old might be more in touch with than his more worldly parents.

The dark does scare us, but Christ is light.

Once again Molly . . ."according to you"  The abyss is not referring to the human mind.  I'm not trying to share what I see "according to you".  I'm sharing what I see according to "me" where "I" am.  I'm not trying to define who's right or wrong, I'm just merely adding my point of view in with others.  And I see the carnal mind very much like the abyss.  And even though you claim that your personal experience convinces you otherwise . . .where did that experience "happen"?  Was it inside your imaginations?  Or did you see it literally somewhere "out there". 

This has been my whole point all along.  A person who watches scarey movies will often go to bed that night and have scarey dreams about the scarey movie.  Why?  Because the subconscious expands on what the consciousness takes in.  And those that believe in ET claim they have personally seen hell . . why?  Because they "consciously" accept it exists and their subconcsious expands on it.  I'd even go so far as to say that you may not even be "consciously" aware that you believe this or that, but your subconsious will still reflect that it is a real thing because your mind came into contact with the "idea" from somewhere.

If you believe in a literal abyss . . .what's the purpose of it?  How does it illuminate what Love is?  If God is love, then everything emulating from him should at least reflect love, right?  Why would love create a place that instills such great fear if the very existance of love casts out all fear?  Seems to contradict itself.

[thinktank]

Were you one of the people arguing in the good and evil thread that God created evil ? 

I cannot see how you can totally seperate God from evil. To do so means that much of the bible is in error.

The questions you posed can also be asked for this world we live in, where billions of lives have lived, untold suffering, that can be described as hell on earth. Now the abyss it seems in comparison, is actually a better place to be, than what some people suffer here on the earth, at least in the abyss, there would be no physical pain, it also seems to be that only demons and evil angels are inpisoned in the abyss, but arguably evil men are/ or become unclean spirits and that these uncelan spirits is who christ preached too in prison, possibly.

[Molly]

If you believe in a literal abyss . . .what's the purpose of it?

He separates light from darkness.  That's one use for the abyss.


28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

 29(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

 30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

 31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

--Luke 8

[the] " deep"

G12
ἄβυσσος
abussos
ab'-us-sos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.

[Nathan]

Were you one of the people arguing in the good and evil thread that God created evil ? 

I cannot see how you can totally seperate God from evil. To do so means that much of the bible is in error.

The questions you posed can also be asked for this world we live in, where billions of lives have lived, untold suffering, that can be described as hell on earth. Now the abyss it seems in comparison, is actually a better place to be, than what some people suffer here on the earth, at least in the abyss, there would be no physical pain, it also seems to be that only demons and evil angels are inpisoned in the abyss, but arguably evil men are/ or become unclean spirits and that these uncelan spirits is who christ preached too in prison, possibly.

No, I wasn't involved in that argument/discussion.  And for me . . .I don't know that I would say that God created evil anymore than I'd say God created a loaf of bread.  I believe he created the elements/ingredients for evil/bread to manifest, but we're the ones that combine the elements to become the end result that they are.  Without human engagment, evil doesn't exist.  But that's just me.

[PaoloNuevo]

I've become more and more convinced that next age "fire" is at least mostly spiritual.  I don't know, God may appear as fire, and being in His physical Presence may feel like fire.  He may even have literal fire as part of Himself, I don't know, but I don't believe God, Who is Spirit, needs a physical/literal fire to burn people with - to accomplish a spiritual purpose.   

 

[shawn]

Were you one of the people arguing in the good and evil thread that God created evil ? 

I cannot see how you can totally seperate God from evil. To do so means that much of the bible is in error.

The questions you posed can also be asked for this world we live in, where billions of lives have lived, untold suffering, that can be described as hell on earth. Now the abyss it seems in comparison, is actually a better place to be, than what some people suffer here on the earth, at least in the abyss, there would be no physical pain, it also seems to be that only demons and evil angels are inpisoned in the abyss, but arguably evil men are/ or become unclean spirits and that these uncelan spirits is who christ preached too in prison, possibly.

No, I wasn't involved in that argument/discussion.  And for me . . .I don't know that I would say that God created evil anymore than I'd say God created a loaf of bread.  I believe he created the elements/ingredients for evil/bread to manifest, but we're the ones that combine the elements to become the end result that they are.  Without human engagment, evil doesn't exist.  But that's just me.