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Offline Sarah

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John the Baptist
« on: October 20, 2008, 02:51:20 AM »
Mathew 11:11  I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptyist: yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Eligah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

Why is John the Baptist the greatest among men, but the least in the kingdom of heaven?


martincisneros

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 05:31:11 AM »
There are several possible answers to this with either varying degrees of accuracy, or perhaps they're all equally accurate.  According to the teachings of Jesus, St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. John those of us who've embraced the Lordship of Jesus and have been filled with the Holy Spirit and the full knowledge of the Covenants of Promise are regarded as Christ Jesus Himself in the earth, under the earth, and in heaven.  For those needing Scripture on what I've just said, the repentance and faith part is in Acts 17, Acts 20, Romans 10, and other passages.  Galatians 4 says that although you can be Lord of all, yet if you're still a child you differ no differently from a slave until the time appointed by the Father and that's in the context of the third and fourth chapters that's contrasting the Mosaic Law with the New Covenant.  Jesus Christ is greater than John the Baptist.  Yet, if you belong to Christ, according to Galatians 3:29 then you're counted the Seed (in the singular) of Abraham to Whom the promises were made.  John the Baptist and Elijah were never counted as the Coming Seed.  Yet in God's process of reheading the whole Creation, we're the lily of the valley, the rose of sharon, the bright morning star, the ark of the Covenant, the Holy of Holies within which the Bread and Blood is placed on a daily basis as we fulfill our priestly duties before the Lord, etc., etc.  The whole Body both in heaven and earth has been Named after Him, according to Ephesians.  There's no other Name given among men by which we must be saved, according to Acts.

Secondly, you can't inherit the Kingdom if you don't approach it with the level of imagination, level of trust, level of teachability, and the level of all things are possible to those that believe thinking of a child.  The least in the Kingdom is a child.  Yet they're the greatest in the Kingdom 'cause they'll believe what they're told from whomever they're told and they will run with it.  Few of them have a "nobody can tell me anything" attitude that many Christians have and for whom Father has a very large paddle with holes prepared for their behind.  According to St. Paul in Galatians, John the Baptist would be consider Hagar, or the Old Covenant.  And John the Baptist died in stark raving unbelief, which is something that most Christians won't touch with a ten foot pole 'cause the necessary implication of Scripture would be that an unbeliever would have a home in heaven.  And Jesus said that they're blessed who've believed and not seen.  And again, the least in the Kingdom believes what they're told with a simplicity that simply takes it at face value until genuine proof to the contrary surfaces.

martincisneros

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 06:02:44 AM »
I forgot to mention the part about the difference between "those born of women" and those born again not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed, by the Word which lives and abides to the age, according to 1Peter 1:23, which elsewhere is called being a new creation in Christ Jesus.  It's just a matter of a higher position in rank and priveleges as I'd tried to indicate by my previous post.  Not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God Who shows mercy.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 06:18:21 AM »
John the Baptist is an angel of God but not a son.

Only the sons enter the kingdom of heaven.

Offline Pierac

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 06:40:29 AM »
John the Baptist is an angel of God but not a son.

Only the sons enter the kingdom of heaven.

How did you come about the understanding that John the Baptist was an Angel?  FYI, the Old testament refers to the Angel's as sons of God.  (Job 1:6, 38:7).

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 06:48:41 AM »
Job 1

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

It doesn't say these are angels coming before God, --it says they are sons.



Job 38
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Again, it says the sons are shouting for joy, not angels.



Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?



Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 08:29:17 AM »
Quote from: Pierac
How did you come about the understanding that John the Baptist was an Angel?


"...[Angels] are...servants...sent from God to care for those who will receive salvation."

--Hebrews 1:14


John the Baptist has a very specific role to play as the precursor and announcer of the Lord.

His role is prophesied in the old testament.  He is to tell those who would receive salvation to prepare for the Lord's arrival [Repent].


Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.


John identifies himself to the Pharisees as the fulfillment of this prophesy:


Matthew 3:3
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


We see in Malachi the LORD calls John his angel who prepares the way of the LORD--


1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

---Malachi 3

[my] "messenger"

H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.



And, again in the New Testament, John is referred to as an angel of God--



7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

 8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

 9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

 10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.


--Matt 11


[my] "messenger"

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.





Offline rosered

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 06:42:43 PM »

 
  I have the same understanding of servants and  sons   Molly
 
 we know that the Law of Moses   acknowledges sin .. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.  
 
 we also know that it is the ministration of death [ crucifying the flesh ] 
 that  we may  be free in the Spirit and glorify God

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
 
  Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
  the vain glory of  glorying in the flesh  and others flesh , a self serving  thing  and we  DO know that  NO FLESH pleases God
 
  its  walking and  talking abd being in the Spirit of God /Christ That makes sons of glory to God
 

Offline Taffy

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 07:14:23 PM »
Job 1

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

It doesn't say these are angels coming before God, --it says they are sons.



Job 38
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Again, it says the sons are shouting for joy, not angels.



Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?



yup Molly :icon_flower:

I see JB as symbolic of the LAW itself..a messenger( angel) of God preparing THE"""""""""WAY"""""",..as the law , we know is a Tutor to lead us to HIM,...

Sarah....As JB was BORN of WOMAN, that being Flesh,we Are told FLESH will NOT inherit the Kingdom, ...One can not be in the OLD and the New, for we are NOW SPIRIT...Old wine and NEW dont MIX....


Why is John the Baptist the greatest among men, but the least in the kingdom of heaven?
Taffy



Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 07:22:01 PM »
Job 1

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

It doesn't say these are angels coming before God, --it says they are sons.



Job 38
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Again, it says the sons are shouting for joy, not angels.



Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?



yup Molly :icon_flower:

I see JB as symbolic of the LAW itself..a messenger( angel) of God preparing THE"""""""""WAY"""""",..as the law , we know is a Tutor to lead us to HIM,...

Sarah....As JB was BORN of WOMAN, that being Flesh,we Are told FLESH will NOT inherit the Kingdom, ...One can not be in the OLD and the New, for we are NOW SPIRIT...Old wine and NEW dont MIX....


Why is John the Baptist the greatest among men, but the least in the kingdom of heaven?
Taffy





John is the last of the High Priests on the order of Aaron, the last of the old order,  and God's angel preparing the way for the LORD.

Henceforth, God's priests will be of the order of Melchizedek, an eternal order, which existed before Abraham.

One cannot simply go from one order to another--one must "cross over" [the river Jordan]  to immortality.

Offline rosered

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 07:55:27 PM »
 
  yes I see the Jordan "descender" to be baptized into  judgment 

 
as the river of judgment

 jordan - definition from dictionary.die.net
Jordan, the river of judgment. Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary Jordan Heb . Yarden, "the descender;" Arab. Nahr-esh-Sheriah, "the watering-place" the ...

dictionary.die.net/jordan - 40k - Similar pages

Offline Sarah

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 05:32:26 AM »
Quote
One cannot simply go from one order to another--one must "cross over" [the river Jordan]  to immortality.

I suppose this is a little where the confusion comes in for me. In my mind I can theologically say that only those born of the spirit "born again" enter into the kingdom of God and therefore are immortal...or rather have life dwelling in them. This would be the kingdom of God coming to earth in my understanding and leading men to all truth...which is the 'thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'.

The turning point which allows people to enter the kingdom of God would have been when Jesus rose from the dead because He said that He is the resurrection and the life. But then scripture shows that people appeared before the resurrection; Elijah, Moses, those who rose when the veil rent, and then when Jesus said that are all alive to God;  He is the God of Abraham, Isaaic, and Jacob. So this makes me think that perhaps people rose before Jesus rose which goes against my theology and confuses me. Also He says that the Kingdom of God has been forcefully advancing and forcefull men lay hold of it.  Does this mean that a few enter as would be the image in my mind by the words 'forefully advancing' like an army laying seige on city and few forrunners breach the wall before the onslaught?

My husband asked that according to UR, if JB was the least in the kingdom of heaven, then would Hitler be higher up than him? I think something is missing in this analogy but I can't articulate it.

 :HeartThrob: Sarah

HappyBoy!

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 08:40:13 PM »
Mathew 11:11  I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptyist: yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Eligah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

Why is John the Baptist the greatest among men, but the least in the kingdom of heaven?



Just a quick observation here.  I've no time to research it now, but perhaps someone knows offhand.  The scripture here states that "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is higher than he", not that he is least in the kingdom of heaven.  Does this imply that he's not yet in the kingdome of heaven?  I expect some other verse will clear this up, but that's my immediate question when I read these verses only.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 09:21:16 PM »
Mathew 11:11  I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptyist: yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Eligah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

Why is John the Baptist the greatest among men, but the least in the kingdom of heaven?



Just a quick observation here.  I've no time to research it now, but perhaps someone knows offhand.  The scripture here states that "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is higher than he", not that he is least in the kingdom of heaven.  Does this imply that he's not yet in the kingdome of heaven?  I expect some other verse will clear this up, but that's my immediate question when I read these verses only.


Yes.  It says the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

That is because the least in the kingdom of heaven is a son.  John is an angel of God.

He is the last High Priest (Levite) of the old order.

HappyBoy!

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 09:35:11 PM »
And therefore can never be part of the kingdom of heaven?

Hmm, makes me rethink exactly what the kingdom of heaven is.  I'll need to ponder this.  Thanks.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2008, 09:50:47 PM »
19And this is the testimony of John when the Jews sent priests and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are you?

    20He confessed (admitted the truth) and did not try to conceal it, but acknowledged, I am not the Christ!

    21They asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not! Are you the Prophet? And he answered, No!

    22Then they said to him, Who are you? Tell us, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?

    23He said, I am the voice of one crying aloud in the wilderness [the voice of one shouting in the desert], Prepare the way of the Lord [level, straighten out, the path of the Lord], as the prophet Isaiah said.

    24The messengers had been sent from the Pharisees.

    25And they asked him, Why then are you baptizing if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?

    26John answered them, I [only] baptize in (with) water. Among you there stands One Whom you do not recognize and with Whom you are not acquainted and of Whom you know nothing.

    27It is He Who, coming after me, is preferred before me, the string of Whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose.

    28These things occurred in Bethany (Bethabara) across the Jordan [at the Jordan crossing], where John was then baptizing.

    29The next day John saw Jesus coming to him and said, Look! There is the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world!

    30This is He of Whom I said, After me comes a Man Who has priority over me [Who takes rank above me] because He was before me and existed before I did.

    31And I did not know Him and did not recognize Him [myself]; but it is in order that He should be made manifest and be revealed to Israel [be brought out where we can see Him] that I came baptizing in (with) water.

    32John gave further evidence, saying, I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and it dwelt on Him [never to depart].

    33And I did not know Him nor recognize Him, but He Who sent me to baptize in (with) water said to me, Upon Him Whom you shall see the Spirit descend and remain, that One is He Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

    34And I have seen [that happen--I actually did see it] and my testimony is that this is the Son of God!

--John 1

Offline Taffy

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 10:04:56 PM »
And therefore can never be part of the kingdom of heaven?

Hmm, makes me rethink exactly what the kingdom of heaven is.  I'll need to ponder this.  Thanks.

Hi HB,
Ponder on the fact, FLESH and BLOOD can not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN, which JB represented ,BEING Symbolic of The LAW.

The Kingdom OF HEAVEN ( ABOVE= Christ, THE NC.) Is WITHIN, One enters Via Faith,( as ONE BEING BORN AGAIN OF SPIRIT) as Throu the veil, an Unveiling of TRUE LIFE ,which as ALWAYS BEEN, just Hidden, as Paul  later  REVEALS throu the Epistles ,noted as the """ MYSTERY of The AGES "".

Taffy :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 10:09:12 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 10:07:15 PM »
1AND THERE shall come forth a Shoot out of the stock of Jesse [David's father], and a Branch out of his roots shall grow and bear fruit.

    2And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him--the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord--

    3And shall make Him of quick understanding, and His delight shall be in the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, neither decide by the hearing of His ears;

    4But with righteousness and justice shall He judge the poor and decide with fairness for the meek, the poor, and the downtrodden of the earth; and He shall smite the earth and the oppressor with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

    5And righteousness shall be the girdle of His waist and faithfulness the girdle of His loins.

    6And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatted domestic animal together; and a little child shall lead them.

    7And the cow and the bear shall feed side by side, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    8And the sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.

    9They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.


--Isaiah 11





1The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

 2It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

 3Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

 4Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

 5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

 6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

 7And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

 9No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

 10And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.


--Isaiah 35




Matthew 15:31
Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2008, 10:26:37 PM »
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


--Job 19





Isaiah 44:6




6Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.




Transponder

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 04:33:47 PM »
Mathew 11:11  I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptyist: yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Eligah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

Why is John the Baptist the greatest among men, but the least in the kingdom of heaven?

The obvious answer is that he was Jewish and would not become Christian and neither would his followers. Thus even the least of the Christians (which is what the gospel writers took 'Kingdom of God' to mean) would be greater than the greatest of the unbelievers including the Jews. Seems a simple answer.

We get this tug between John's followers and the Jesus followers. John spends a lot of time telling anyone who will listen that Jesus is greater than John. Since the gospels were written by Christians, that is what one would expect. Whether the Baptist would agree is another matter.

Offline Nathan

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2008, 05:22:26 PM »
I think also because in that day, John had also gained a great reputation and it was clear, he was not on the same side as the religious leaders.  If I'm a layperson of that day, I'm sure I'd much rather follow John's message of repentance instead of the religious law of forced labor.  And Jesus was merely saying, as great a man as John was here on the earth, he's the most humbled in the Spirit of Truth.  He's the least.  His message, his identity is last in line because it's not about others being over and above the likes of John . .it's about Christ being the head of all.

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2008, 05:30:35 PM »
I think also because in that day, John had also gained a great reputation and it was clear, he was not on the same side as the religious leaders.  If I'm a layperson of that day, I'm sure I'd much rather follow John's message of repentance instead of the religious law of forced labor.  And Jesus was merely saying, as great a man as John was here on the earth, he's the most humbled in the Spirit of Truth.  He's the least.  His message, his identity is last in line because it's not about others being over and above the likes of John . .it's about Christ being the head of all.
John never makes it into the kingdom, at least in his lifetime.

He never crosses over the Jordan.  He stands in the midst of it, like the Levite priests of Joshua, so that others can cross over.

He is the last Levite High Priest.



1And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

 2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

 3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

 4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

 5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

 6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.


--Mat 11

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 05:40:55 PM by Molly »

Offline Nathan

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2008, 05:48:18 PM »
hmmm . . . I'm thinking there was a crossing of something when he was still in his mother's womb and Mary showed up with Jesus in hers . . .

Offline Molly

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Re: John the Baptist
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2008, 05:55:00 PM »
hmmm . . . I'm thinking there was a crossing of something when he was still in his mother's womb and Mary showed up with Jesus in hers . . .
John  leaps in the womb in recognition of the Messiah.

As God's angel, he has one job to do--recognize and prepare the way for the Messiah.

But he has to recognize him again when he comes to be baptized.  God has told him what to look for.


John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Thus, Jesus is the first one to enter into the kingdom--of course!


16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


--Mat 3



wow I just realized something, when John first recognizes Jesus, they are both in water, preparing for birth, prefiguring the next time they will meet, where Jesus will be born again [from above].
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 06:06:14 PM by Molly »