SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?

[Nathan]

You're probably not going to understand this any better, but you ask where I draw the line . . .and that's just it.  When you look at it spiritually, there are no lines to be drawn.  Remember?  The spirit is like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes to where it goes . . .SUCH ARE THOSE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT . . . no lines of what you can and can't see.  It takes my logic out of the scenario.  And yes, it "changes" my original perception of who God is in the first place.  It changes my opinion of what and where heaven is.  It changes everything.  No lines drawn because no boundaries to try to contain and control it.  What is shared is merely what is revealed, not because we've done our math and this is our conclusions.

Life that is abundant from the spirit of truth is the result  of allowing the walls to come down and letting God show me what he desires, regardless as to how much sense it may or may not make to my logic.  Should it challenge my original fortress of doctrine on who the devil is, so be it.  I lay down every teaching of men willingly and let God burn every form of chaff, wood, hay, straw . . .should there be anything left, I will embrace it with all my heart.  Should the form of satan be changed in that process, I embrace that as well.  Should others question the validity of my personal transitioning of what I see and believe, let them measure what they will.

[Molly]

You're probably not going to understand this any better, but you ask where I draw the line . . .and that's just it. When you look at it spiritually, there are no lines to be drawn. Remember? The spirit is like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes to where it goes . . .SUCH ARE THOSE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT . . . no lines of what you can and can't see

This I mostly agree with, but then why do you draw a line at the literal?  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as they say.

So, in your mind Molly it makes more sense to assume God was playing a cosmic game with the devil over the life of Job? In your opinion, what was the purpose?

That's not how I see this story.  This story started with God bragging on his servant Job.  Wouldn't you like God to brag on you?  And, what about Job?  It brings Job into a much closer relationship with God:

5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. [Job 42]

Should the form of satan be changed in that process, I embrace that as well. Should others question the validity of my personal transitioning of what I see and believe, let them measure what they will.

You haven't yet convinced me that this story shows Satan as the carnal mind, or anything other than 'the prosecutor' in the council of God who accuses God's people.  Job stays faithful. 


This story is very meaningful to me because it taught me so many things at a time when I was re-finding God because I had so much evil coming at me.   It teaches about how God hedges in his people.  About how he controls Satan, and will not let Satan kill Job.  About how God can see the big picture and is in control and protecting Job, even though it might not look that way to the flesh. It teaches how to be strong, how to hold on, how to persevere, how to stand [a military term meaning to stand and face the opposing army instead of running like a coward]. It is about how Job keeps walking by faith--no matter what--which is what we all HAVE to do.  As a literal story, it's one of the richest stories in the Bible. 

[shawn]

So, you believe the story of Job to be about God bragging on his servant Job?  And for his obedience God grants satan the ability to take everything from Job. 
And if this is Job's lot...what can the rest of us sinful men expect?  If I looked at Job like this, I would have a hard time sleeping at night.

[Molly]

So, you believe the story of Job to be about God bragging on his servant Job?  And for his obedience God grants satan the ability to take everything from Job. 
And if this is Job's lot...what can the rest of us sinful men expect?  If I looked at Job like this, I would have a hard time sleeping at night.

We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet. 

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
 [Lk 10:19]

[jabcat]

We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet. 

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
 [Lk 10:19]

That caught my attention Molly - rightly dividing between the old and new.  That's something I OFTEN fail to do, and that's a blessing.  Thanks!

It's all for our learning, but it's true that if we look at God as He dealt with natural Israel and directly applied every detail of that literally to us today, then yep, I'd be in trouble too!     Wouldn't be pretty. Thankfully God's Plan is for the ages.  Blessings.

[jabcat]

Something beautiful, something good
All my confusion He understood
All I had to offer Him was brokeness and stife
But he made something beautiful of my life

- Bill Gaither

[micah7:9]

Something beautiful, something good
All my confusion He understood
All I had to offer Him was brokeness and stife
But he made something beautiful of my life

- Bill Gaither

The Gaither's wrote some very good songs.

[micah7:9]

Molly, what do get out the Book of Job taking it literally?
Just what do you receive from that book as history and literal that helps you spiritually in your walk?
The adversary/satan is brought forth as a proper noun, as a being;
That is how theology and religion presents the book; but is not the adversary a spirit?
Is it not religion and theology that led us in the direction of a personal entity?

"Job 1:7  And Yahweh said unto the accuser" Rotherhamn
"Job 1:7  And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary.." YLT
"Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan." KJV

Doesnt Paul teach us   Eph 6:11  put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil,
Eph 6:12  because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

As you know I contend and believe the entire Bible is a parable and certainly Job, is a parable.
Jesus spoke in parables.... Mat 13:34 All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them,

I

[Molly]

That is how theology and religion presents the book; but is not the adversary a spirit?

Can't you be both a spirit AND a person?  I know you as a spirit.  So I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Satan--the spirit being filling that role in Job--has a definite personality,


And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

4And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

---Job 2

Is it not religion and theology that led us in the direction of a personal entity?

Does that mean it's automatically wrong because religion never gets anything right?

You say this story is a parable but I still cannot see how to read it as a parable--if you or others care to explain that more, I'll listen.   There's a lot in this Book that I don't understand.  But I find the basic story to be pretty simple and straightforward.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, in the OT, many different characters seem to be filling the role of Satan, but in the NT there is [mostly] only one we are concerned with, the serpent of Genesis 3:1.  When he falls, they all fall.

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:2]

[micah7:9]

That is how theology and religion presents the book; but is not the adversary a spirit?

Can't you be both a spirit AND a person?  I know you as a spirit.  So I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Satan--the spirit being filling that role in Job--has a definite personality,


And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

4And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

---Job 2

Is it not religion and theology that led us in the direction of a personal entity?

Does that mean it's automatically wrong because religion never gets anything right?

You say this story is a parable but I still cannot see how to read it as a parable--if you or others care to explain that more, I'll listen.   There's a lot in this Book that I don't understand.  But I find the basic story to be pretty simple and straightforward.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, in the OT, many different characters seem to be filling the role of Satan, but in the NT there is [mostly] only one we are concerned with, the serpent of Genesis 3:1.  When he falls, they all fall.

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:2]

I, am not a spirit...the vessel that I have been given to dwell in temporarily makes me a breathing creature aka a living soul...
"i" am OF THE SPIRIT and one with HIM.

Not to to be offensive or hard of speech but,
You will not allow yourself to see or understand the book of Job as a parable ( it would seem.)
Man depends much on their earthy understanding, which is the weight that shackles them from the greater knowledge that remains hidden until they see.

[Cardinal]

  My  .....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.

And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings.....

[Nathan]

You're probably not going to understand this any better, but you ask where I draw the line . . .and that's just it. When you look at it spiritually, there are no lines to be drawn. Remember? The spirit is like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes to where it goes . . .SUCH ARE THOSE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT . . . no lines of what you can and can't see

This I mostly agree with, but then why do you draw a line at the literal?  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as they say.

I'm not sure I understand your argument.  It's not that I'm drawing the line, I just think there's so much more beyond the one you've already drawn, which is the natural or literal.  Spiritual realm is "above" natural and we're called to walk in the spirit . . .so I have no issues of taking note of natural, only for the use of seeing what direction it's taking spiritually.

It's kind of like after Jesus was crucified and resurrected and returned to the disciples.  They were totally ready for him to literally become the king of Israel, literally . . .and they were talking amongst themselves as to what their picking order would be and Jesus basically told them even then that he didn't come to be the literal king and their discussion was a waste of time because his directive was about spiritual order and not literal.

And even before that when he sent them out to basically prepare the atmosphere in the cities he himself would be passing through and they came back bewildered that even demons respond when they use his name and his response to that?  "Don't let that distract you from what really matters, and that is the fact that your name is written in the book of life . . ."  Again, literal not as important as we tend to make it to be.

Luke 10
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

This kinda opens a whole other can of worms . . .if satan is spirit, then how can Jesus see him fall "from" heaven, when heaven is spirit as well?  Now if I liken this to the serpent in the tree that would represent carnal nature, the tree of knowledge was in the garden, which for me was a spiritual place, which of course is heaven, and when Adam ate from Eve they were not the only ones removed from the garden, but the serpent was as well and after all of that was over with, the only thing mentioned still in the garden after that was the tree of life . . .the tree of knowledge "became" the dominant realm we live in now . . .but again, I'm sure I'm a minority on that one as well.  But . . . the passage in Luke would then "fit" into that as Jesus indicates there was a removal from one realm into another. 

Because of our limited abilities in life, we just can't comprehend exactly "what" the serpents role was "before" the act of deceit took place.  But for me, carnality in and of itself wasn't the problem.  It was part of the balance in the kingdom.  The problem with it happened when "it" became the emphasis in Adam's life.  I personally believe that was why Jesus then tied demons in with the falling of satan and walking on SERPENTS . . .he took it back to the garden . . .satan and serpents are one and the same.  It even says that in Revelation.  It's merely a NATURE of ADVERSARY proportions to God's righteousness. 

When we look at it from an ascended place, it's under our feet.  But when we look at it from a fallen place, from a "natural state" then it's not only NOT under our feet, but it's ALL we can see.  Death, doom, gloom, destruction, judgment, condemnation, control, hopelessness . . .the list goes on and on.  We all have "the" adversary nature in us, but those who walk in the spirit are not deceived or influenced by it's subtly in our lives.

[Molly]

My  .....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.

And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings.....

This I would agree with, and I would love to hear you expound on the spiritual behind Job.

I also said earlier that Job received the double blessing of Joseph.   Is the double blessing combining both natural and spiritual?

It's seems like a picture of resurrection.

[Molly]

Because of our limited abilities in life, we just can't comprehend exactly "what" the serpents role was "before" the act of deceit took place.

Jesus tells us "the devil" was a murderer from the beginning.  Could he be referring here to the specific being in the garden?

He tells the Pharisees they are serpents, a generation of vipers, and like their father, the devil.

One thing he's not saying here is that Adam is the serpent.  Jesus called himself son of Adam.

[Taffy]

My  .....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.

And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings.....

Isee in Job  The pattern laid out in the ABOVE, prior to it being walked out in the physicall~ The Literal is the platform of the spiritual as is the Torah of The Living Word~ one the Witness of the Spiritual reality

[shawn]

We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet. 

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
 [Lk 10:19]

That caught my attention Molly - rightly dividing between the old and new.  That's something I OFTEN fail to do, and that's a blessing.  Thanks!

It's all for our learning, but it's true that if we look at God as He dealt with natural Israel and directly applied every detail of that literally to us today, then yep, I'd be in trouble too!     Wouldn't be pretty. Thankfully God's Plan is for the ages.  Blessings.

And I understand what you are saying.  But, we are talking about the nature of God here and that doesn't change.  How Molly understands the nature of God through the book of Job, certainly isn't how I understand the nature of God.  Does that make Molly wrong, me right or vice versa?  Is it about one point of view lording over another?  And while I believe the book of Job to be a literal story with personification of spiritual elements that doesn't make it so.  But, what I see now, probably won't be what I see tomorrow.  Does it really matter how I view satan?  I don't believe so...at least not in the grand scheme of things.  I don't believe it effects my relationship to Christ.  And while I lean more towards the view that satan is a non person spiritual entity, that doesn't mean I will believe that tomorrow. 

Sometimes I feel like we as believers are so set on having a firm opinion about spiritual things.  We feel wishy washy, swayed by the wind if we don't take a dogmatic stance about a particular subject.  I would suggest this...being dogmatic about most things inhibits growth.  It is one more wall preventing revelation through relationship.  It's one more area that we are in essence saying is "off limits".  Me...I no longer want to live like that. 

[Molly]

Another piece of the puzzle:


John 5:22 [Jesus speaking]: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son...."


God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
  [John 3:17]


"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
[John 12:47]


John 8:15 [Jesus speaking]: "You [Jews/Pharisees] judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no one."




The judgment is entrusted to the Son but he has not come to judge the world but to save it.  Jesus did not come to judge men but to judge the devil.




  John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.


 John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.


The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in me.
Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.
Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged. [John 16:9,10,11]

[Nathan]

Same chapter.
 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)

 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .

 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control  and bondage.  For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man.  "That" was our judgment.  not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men.  But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever.  This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .

Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves.  But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble.  So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place.  Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.

[Taffy]

and Men Shall fall \die Like Princes~Death\Flesh is JUDGED and becomes No more ~ as Life is in the NEW DAY ABOVE~
the word Prince comes from HE who holds Dominion~ as did the carnal Minded man\Old ManPrince\esau Cain all women born barren Sarai Rebekkah , Rachel~ The seprents Belly Barren in the DUST, oj\Pharoah\EgyptSodom\Babylon et all etc etc

Psa 82:1  [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 


 Psa 82:2   How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.  


 Psa 82:3   Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 


 Psa 82:4   Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked. 


 Psa 82:5   They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 


 Psa 82:6   I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. 


 Psa 82:7   But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 


 Psa 82:8   Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. 

[micah7:9]

We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet. 

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
 [Lk 10:19]

That caught my attention Molly - rightly dividing between the old and new.  That's something I OFTEN fail to do, and that's a blessing.  Thanks!

It's all for our learning, but it's true that if we look at God as He dealt with natural Israel and directly applied every detail of that literally to us today, then yep, I'd be in trouble too!     Wouldn't be pretty. Thankfully God's Plan is for the ages.  Blessings.

And I understand what you are saying.  But, we are talking about the nature of God here and that doesn't change.  How Molly understands the nature of God through the book of Job, certainly isn't how I understand the nature of God.  Does that make Molly wrong, me right or vice versa?  Is it about one point of view lording over another?  And while I believe the book of Job to be a literal story with personification of spiritual elements that doesn't make it so.  But, what I see now, probably won't be what I see tomorrow.  Does it really matter how I view satan?  I don't believe so...at least not in the grand scheme of things.  I don't believe it effects my relationship to Christ.  And while I lean more towards the view that satan is a non person spiritual entity, that doesn't mean I will believe that tomorrow. 

Sometimes I feel like we as believers are so set on having a firm opinion about spiritual things.  We feel wishy washy, swayed by the wind if we don't take a dogmatic stance about a particular subject.  I would suggest this...being dogmatic about most things inhibits growth.  It is one more wall preventing revelation through relationship.  It's one more area that we are in essence saying is "off limits".  Me...I no longer want to live like that.

Excellent post in (mho) especially, " Does it really matter how I view satan?  I don't believe so...at least not in the grand scheme of things.  I don't believe it effects my relationship to Christ."

[micah7:9]

Same chapter.
 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)

 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .

 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control  and bondage.  For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man.  "That" was our judgment.  not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men.  But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever.  This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .

Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves.  But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble.  So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place.  Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.

"
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing..." Nathan

I do not see judgment as negative, have not for sometime now. Fact is I, me, myself personally... do not see negative in the Bible. I've been led to know that to be a truth.

[jabcat]

My  .....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.

And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings.....

   AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[Nathan]

Same chapter.
 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)

 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .

 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control  and bondage.  For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man.  "That" was our judgment.  not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men.  But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever.  This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .

Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves.  But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble.  So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place.  Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.

"
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing..." Nathan

I do not see judgment as negative, have not for sometime now. Fact is I, me, myself personally... do not see negative in the Bible. I've been led to know that to be a truth.

You're a minority then.

[micah7:9]

My  .....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.

And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings.....

I guess it is where your head is at.

[micah7:9]

Same chapter.
 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)

 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .

 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control  and bondage.  For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man.  "That" was our judgment.  not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men.  But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever.  This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .

Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves.  But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble.  So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place.  Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.

"
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing..." Nathan

I do not see judgment as negative, have not for sometime now. Fact is I, me, myself personally... do not see negative in the Bible. I've been led to know that to be a truth.

You're a minority then.

Yep and I thank the Lord for the insight.