Author Topic: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?  (Read 22259 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #200 on: November 06, 2011, 07:21:13 PM »

   i can understand that,Micah

   but i did a very involved study years ago on it. and while i cant' tell you where i read it all,it pertains to ancient customs,God renaming someone

  when they had a change of nature.saul/Paul...Abraham/Abram.Sarai/Sarah  You have the liberty to accept/reserve or have a contrary opinion.

   also it has to do with language..and when we go back to root meanings of words..we are often surprised

   ex;  Beloved naming his dog..he observed him,noted certain characteristics and similiarities,named him the proper name and has dominion through that name

   Seth comes to the call

Yes, Ive read about the name changes and it has GREAT significance.
"... pertains to ancient customs..." now me, personally, I would not even go there.

and didnt someone on the dog naming said we should not name a dog after a man? I think? Now right there is a difference in thinking. I, personally would not name a dog or animal after a man, and certainly not after a biblical name, but that is just me. I am in no way upset in anyway that one chooses to do so. :happy3:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #201 on: November 06, 2011, 10:17:01 PM »
Back to the original topic--

From Taffy's link

Adam, Eve, and Discernment [the carnal mind]

I'm not sure I can make that work.

Is the carnal mind more subtil than any beast of the field the LORD God has made?

I'm not sure I can think of the carnal mind as 'subtil.' 

Is the carnal mind a liar and the father of lies?

One good thing about our senses is that they often give us good information about the physical world--they do not lie about pain, danger, pleasure, etc--on a very local level.

So if I touch a hot stove, I can be sure my senses will tell me the truth-- that it's hot.

The carnal mind used in the right way is a helper to us living in this world.


Maybe I'm fussing over words here, but what is the carnal mind?

If carnal mind simply means human flesh or brain etc, then it is simply a machine that the spirit of man directs. This biological machine can either do good and evil. If the human flesh is excluisvely evil, then why does the body feel good when doing good, such as feeding the poor, why smile etc when others are delivered.

Paul lists the sins, that is the lust of the eyes, the pride of life etc

So not sure what the word carnal mind means. It could mean instrement, or it means the evil intentions of the inner man, that needs to transform renew to Christ.



Offline Nathan

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #202 on: November 07, 2011, 05:40:47 PM »
For me "carnal" is all things natural . . .which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but when you are pursuing spiritual truths, you are leaving the natural behind . . .at least that's how I see that it's supposed to be and the problems come when people try to use natural means to enter into spiritual truth . . .which is why I pound on laying one's mind down so much.  People with eyes but can't see are those who can see literally but not spiritually because they rely on what can be seen/understood rather than embracing what they can't see or understand.  And even as I write that, in this realm, that makes no sense.  How can you rely on something you don't understand or can't see?  But in the spirit, everything is in the reverse so it makes perfect sense.  Faith is the evidence of things unseen.  The only way we can please God is by embracing what we can't see.  Once we do that, vision of truth is "birthed" in us so that we begin seeing what others still can't see.  It's all connected to spiritual intimacy and relationship rather than knowledge and natural reasoning.

But carnality . . .it's like a child . . in and of themselves, they are quite innocent, but if the child is left unattended, they become destructive in their innocence, to the point of even putting their own lives in grave danger.  I think carnality does the same thing to us.  When it's kept in check, there's no harm in it, but when you feed into it, it becomes your master and you become bound by it.  We "are" carnal by nature, but it's only a temporary state.   Perhaps that'd be another litmus test to what carnality is . . .anything not eternal . . .

And Molly, for me, "that's" one of the things that clicked into place the loudest for me when I saw how the serpent's identity as the most subtle creature in all the earth (natural realm) is exactly the same characteristic as a carnal mind.  It's SO subtle that things can creep in our nature without us even being aware of it.  Or sometimes our motives to achieve or obtain a personal goal or possession would APPEAR to be driven by an innocent motive to our consciousness, but subconsciously, beneath the surface of our "self" there are hidden agendas working against us.  Psychiatrists are really good at digging deeper into those areas where those hidden things lie in our own minds.


When we sing songs like "more of you" or " I want more of Jesus"  . . ."Where you lead me, I will follow . . ."  What exactly are we singing there?  If we truly believe God is infinite, then why the resistance when God brings us to places that are beyond our comprehension?  isn't that what an infinite God desires to do?  In all of these discussions on the allegories, analogies, patterns and symbolisms, does "any" of what's been said in supporting those things lead one into bondage?  Into death?  Granted, it's a different place, but I've always thought that's the way our relationship with God is "supposed" to operate.  He will always lead us to the edge of who we are, and then call us to go beyond the comfort zone of our intellect and identity and depend TOTALLY on the sound of his voice rather than on our knowledge "about" his voice.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #203 on: November 07, 2011, 11:04:40 PM »
"It's SO subtle that things can creep in our nature without us even being aware of it. " Nathan

I contend that nothing creeps in like you say, its ALL in man from the beginning, those "things" you speak of, are just dormant and our senses wake them. Should the Lord have found us and we yield to His voice, we are able to put them off... by and through Christ in me, the hope of glory.  :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #204 on: November 08, 2011, 12:00:03 AM »
I know what I should do but don't, I know what I don't do but do anyway . . .oh what a wretched man I am . . .

Sounds to me like Paul still had struggles even after his conversion as well.   :dontknow:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #205 on: November 08, 2011, 01:12:48 AM »
I know what I should do but don't, I know what I don't do but do anyway . . .oh what a wretched man I am . . .

Sounds to me like Paul still had struggles even after his conversion as well.   :dontknow:

I totally agree with that thought. I am sure we dont like to think about Paul like that (I dont), but I reason that Paul who I know had a greater strength spiritually than anyone I have met in this walk, yet Paul was as human as you and I, he was a mortal human being made of the same flesh as anyone else. But Nathan what are you saying or trying to infer? :dontknow:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #206 on: November 08, 2011, 01:59:31 AM »
those "things" you speak of, are just dormant and our senses wake them. Should the Lord have found us and we yield to His voice, we are able to put them off

This makes it sound as though all we need to do is get saved and we're free from the power of our selves . . .I was merely indicating that no one is exempt from carnality from within . . .cuz it's SUBTLE . . .it's there without us even being aware that it's there.  Only with the light of his presence manifests in us does it then illuminate the things that need to be purged. 

God's promises come by way of proclamation (from Him) and revelation . . .from Him as well.  But our old man takes those promises and attempts to manipulate situations that will bring about those promises . . .the man in us is always at work trying to control things that ought not be under our control . . .the Spirit is like the wind, you don't know from where it comes or to where it goes, such are those who are born of the Spirit.  The subtlety of carnality withn us steels that freedom from us should we let it.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #207 on: November 08, 2011, 02:07:08 AM »
It aint subtil, its us.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #208 on: November 08, 2011, 04:41:22 AM »
So the consensus is that Job's carnal mind killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 04:45:55 AM by Molly »

Offline Taffy

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #209 on: November 08, 2011, 04:54:35 AM »
the Lord brought the the evil upon Job by the council of will~ I create EVIL~ HE  also Brought the evil spirit within Men, their Lying Tongues~ no Mention of Satan doing the WORK there~~~HE  also becomes the adversary to man Himself// he was the serpent who caused Paul to fall from His Horse~ Things to ponder
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #210 on: November 08, 2011, 04:59:42 AM »
So God killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?

And God is satan?

But, Adam is also satan, created in God's image?

So who is this middleman called satan in the Job story?

Offline Taffy

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #211 on: November 08, 2011, 05:04:31 AM »
So God killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?

And God is satan?

But, Adam is also satan, created in God's image?

So who is this middleman called satan in the Job story?
Just things to Ponder along side~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #212 on: November 08, 2011, 05:30:22 AM »
The Absence of Satan in the Old Testament
Posted By MSH on February 1, 2010

--by Michael Heiser

Several commenters to the last post asked for some information on the satan.

Although English Bibles continue the practice of capitalizing the word "satan" in passages like Job 1 and 2, those passage do not have a specific individual in mind — that is, "satan" in these passages should *not* be understood as a proper personal name.

The reason for this is straightforward. In biblical Hebrew, the definite article (the word "the) is a single letter (heh). Hebrew prefixes (attaches) the definite article to a noun (or participle to make it a substantive) so that, like all languages that have definite articles, the noun is made specific. Biblical Hebrew does not, however, put the definite article (the word "the") on proper personal nouns (personal names). In this respect, Hebrew is like English. I don't call myself "the Mike".No one (except maybe Donald Trump  ) puts the word "the" in front of their first name. Hebrew simply does not do this at all. As the well known biblical Hebrew reference grammar by Jouon-Muraoka notes: "No proper noun of person takes the article, not even when it has the form of an adjective or a participle."[1.Paul Joüon and Takamitsu Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Editrice Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2003; 2005), vol. 2:505; Par 137.b.]

Without exception, the word "satan" in Job occurs *with* the article. This indicates quite clearly that "satan" is *not* a personal name. It is generic, and means "the adversary". The word can be used of human beings (1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:23; 1 Kings 5:18; 1 Kings 11:14). All of these examples have "satan" without the article, but the referent is a human being, not a divine being, so we don't have "Satan" here either.

In terms of statistics, the noun "satan" occurs 27 times in the Hebrew Bible, ten times *without* the article.



Of these ten, seven refer to human beings and two refer to the Angel of Yahweh for sure. The lone outlier is 1 Chron 21:1. This is the famous passage where "Satan" provokes David to take a census, but in the parallel passage, 2 Sam 24:1-25, it's Yahweh provoking David to take the census. Due to this parallel, and due to the fact that "satan" here has no article, this is viewed by some as the single instance of an evil, cosmic figure called "satan" in the OT. It actually isn't, though. If you're familiar with my work on the two Yahwehs in the OT, the parallel (Yahweh-satan) is striking to you. The "satan" figure here is none other than the Angel of Yahweh — and so this instance without the article is akin to the two instances in the book of Numbers where "satan" was used of the Angel. This relieves the "is Yahweh Satan?" question and any notion of contradiction — since it would mean BOTH passages have Yahweh provoking David — one appears to be the invisible Yahweh; the other is the visible Yahweh.

There's actually been a good recent article on why the satan in 1 Chron 21:1 is the Angel. The article is freely available online, so I've posted it here as a PDF. Consider this one fact that the article notes. It is in THIS passage that, after verse 1 mentions the "satan" provoking David, we read the Angel is there "with a sword drawn in his hand". The Hebrew phrasing behind this occurs only three other times: Joshua 5:13 and Numbers 22:23, 31. ALL of these references are the Angel of Yahweh. and in one of them (Num. 22) he is the satan.

This would mean there are ZERO verses in the OT that have a personal name "satan", and ZERO references to Satan as a cosmic evil entity as in the NT.

So where does this leave us?

Basically, "the satan" in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to "run to and fro throughout the earth" to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn't and is therefore under Yahweh's wrath, he "accuses" that person. This is what we see in Job — and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he's doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of "being an adversary in the heavenly council" was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered "serpent") in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh's designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled "Satan" and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God's great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.

http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2010/02/the-absence-of-satan-in-the-old-testament/

Offline Molly

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #213 on: November 08, 2011, 06:44:20 AM »
http://luonline.academia.edu/ElkeSpeliopoulos/Papers/499943/Theological_Development_of_Satan


Theological Development of Satan from the Old to the New Testament



Although Satan becomes more specifically associated with an evil, malevolent enemy of God in the New Testament [the serpent of Gen 3:1],

he still remains under the control of God, and is defeated by Jesus.

One interesting observation of the writer is that whereas all other world views show good and evil being a kind of ying and yang of equal

and opposing forces, in both the Old and New Testament, the evil force is always shown as subordinate to and under the control of a good God.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #214 on: November 08, 2011, 03:36:55 PM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c: Re, Adam named them. When God names someone He breathes that nature into them, as a creative being. Adam was made a creative being as well, and imparted the natures of his soul (the vanity he had within him that was given him to overcome thru Christ) that he had received.

All the names denote natures which have been long forgotten for the most part, natures within man that must bow the knee to the Christ within us. He allowed me to recover thru the Spirit, some of the natures of the creation. The creation is witness to Him and His glory. This is why when you read about them, you are confronted with a witness of the patterns revealed in the Word and the Tabernacle.

This wisdom given regarding the creation and the natures of the beasts, is part of Him reconciling all things unto Himself. All things were fragmented, He reconciles them back into proper alignment, ie. subject to Him again. Earth/natural creation over Him (like a covering or dominion) = the grave. Him (standing, uprightness, righteousness) over the earth/creation (as a covering or dominion) = resurrection. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Nathan

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #215 on: November 08, 2011, 04:57:08 PM »
So the consensus is that Job's carnal mind killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?

Wow . .. really?  You think that's what we're trying to say in all of this?  It seems everyone has a great grasp on the story, but no one is willing to go off the deep end of the spirit and see what lies beneath the story.  So . . .Job was torn down and rebuilt again . . . it's got some great morals that go with it, but where's the spiritual truth?  What is the unseen message in all of it?  If you're not willing to be open to that, then none of our words will make any sense. 

IF I'm saying satan is to be seen on a spiritual dimension rather than JUST a literal one . . . then you can't leave everything else as literal either.  The loss of his sons . . .SPIRITUALLY . .the loss of his livestock SPIRITUALLY . .the lost of his wife SPIRITUALLY . . .. I'm not going to try to chew it for you.  What is revealed is based on your relationship with God in the same manner as what is revealed to me is based on my relationship with God.

I just received an email from a church member who God has used greatly in a number of church circles.  In the past, they had taught one particular church group on this very subject . . . satan and the demonic.  But God has changed their perspective, they approached me Sunday and shared their concern because they had already agreed to do the class and they were about to head over to teach it this time as well but they knew if they got too deep, they'd lose the class because the group is VERY tightly wrapped around the manifestations of the ministries rather than around Christ himself.

The email they sent was an update of the class, the group could feel the intensity of life coming through the message and asked if this person would continue teaching, but she had to decline because even though they felt the power, they were not willing or ready to digest the source from which it comes.  It reminded me of Ezekiel and John who were instructed to eat the scroll/little book and it was sweet to the taste but bitter to the stomach . . .

There is a sweetness to the message but the moment people start realizing the details from which the message comes from, they become resistant toward it. 

The message in Job is not about the loss of natural things and the restoration of natural things which in the end, the main character is much richer with natural possessions than he was in the beginning . . .

Jesus is in the volume of the book . . .including Job . . .where do you see Jesus in the story with satan at God's throne dickering at how much he can or can't attack Job?

Offline sheila

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #216 on: November 08, 2011, 05:33:01 PM »
 :thumbsup:

lion will lie down with the Lamb....a mere infant put his hand into nest of serpents............

    all this on HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN........

     depicts lesser natures ruled over by Christ.and Christ's dominion over the creation.

    subtility is not evil of itself,neither is cautiousness.....spirit motive behind the creature is what shows it 'good or evil'

    a serpent can rid a barn of mice that 'spoil' the wheat...an honourable purpose and function


   satan is a spirit/tool used to destroy what God would have destroyed...but the 'hammer' will not exalt itself over He that weilds it


   SPIRITUAL EXPIERENCE COMES BY TRIAL AND ERROR WHETHER OBEDIANT OR DIS OBEDIANT  [Christ obediant,us disobediant at times]

   a mere child shall lead them...

   now man has tamed all animals..but the tongue[serpent cloven tongue/unclean lips]   that is why Holy spirit come in the form of cloven tongues

  of fire[coal to lips]  subtle discernment of spirits/distinctions,rightly dividing/righteous judgement.....purifying unclean 'liar and murdering lips] into tongues of truth

  grace,love.

    the tribe of Benjamin was as a ravening wolf...that became a distributor of food

Offline micah7:9

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #217 on: November 08, 2011, 07:01:49 PM »
"Let us remember that Satan is not the "angel" of the pit, nor does he hold the "key" to the pit, nor is he the "king" over the pit. All of this has been transferred to our Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of all! Satan is a nobody and has no power at all. Someone says, "But, brother Eby, it says that the name of this angel of the bottomless pit, or this king over the locusts, is Abaddon and Apollyon — which mean DESTROYER! Surely that can't be Christ!" I will confess that my view of Abaddon and Apollyon is very different from most. I make no effort to connect these names with the devil, the antichrist, nor any other dark personage or power. Apollyon is the "angel" of the abyss or the one who has power and control over the abyss. Here he has the "key" to the abyss and authority to open it.

Now let us UNDERSTAND! "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more…" (Rev. 20:1-3). Now let us consider some pertinent questions. In this symbolic scene, who is it that has the key to the abyss? An angel! Where is the angel from? From heaven! Therefore, where did the key to the abyss come from? From heaven! What did the angel do? He bound the devil, shut him up in the pit, and locked it with the key! How, then, could Satan be the one who has the key? Impossible! Who is it that has bound, and does bind, the power of Satan? Our Lord Jesus Christ! Who is the symbolic "angel from heaven" all through the book of Revelation? Christ is! Ah, can we not see by this that the "destroyer," that is, Abaddon and Apollyon, is the Christ of God! This is not some negative entity out of a realm of darkness — this is CHRIST!"   (Eby #115 Candle Stick series)  Thoughts?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #218 on: November 08, 2011, 07:17:48 PM »
   I have no idea what your trying to say. I am having computor probls today.

    God has said'BY MY SPIRT...and I will not give MY GLORY TO ANOTHER......signifying an adversairal 'another'   Christ has victory and dominion

   through the spirit.The Glory is the victory and dominion....and it only comes through the spirit of God.

   we are told to test the spirits, if it is of Christ thus God...and to NOT be misled by deceiving spirits

Offline shawn

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #219 on: November 08, 2011, 07:38:11 PM »
See the problem Molly is the fact that we are looking at this from different angles.  You are still looking at this literally.  Of course, the carnal mind didn't meet with God literally, or put sores on him literally.  The question for you is what could this story be saying if it is indeed to be read like a parable?  Have you ever read a parable that was spoken about by Jesus and say to yourself, "well that is ridiculous that wouldn't happen"?  Probably not.  And the reason?  Because it is to be read symbolically.

So can the carnal mind destroy homes, takes lives, steal health, steal wealth...basically cause catastrophic damage to a person and their family?  No?  I deal with a whole population of people that would disagree with you.

It's all about how you look at Job.  If you believe it's a literal story and I believe it to be a parable...then we will just need to agree to disagree and move on.

Offline thinktank

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #220 on: November 08, 2011, 07:39:31 PM »
"Let us remember that Satan is not the "angel" of the pit, nor does he hold the "key" to the pit, nor is he the "king" over the pit. All of this has been transferred to our Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of all! Satan is a nobody and has no power at all. Someone says, "But, brother Eby, it says that the name of this angel of the bottomless pit, or this king over the locusts, is Abaddon and Apollyon — which mean DESTROYER! Surely that can't be Christ!" I will confess that my view of Abaddon and Apollyon is very different from most. I make no effort to connect these names with the devil, the antichrist, nor any other dark personage or power. Apollyon is the "angel" of the abyss or the one who has power and control over the abyss. Here he has the "key" to the abyss and authority to open it.

Now let us UNDERSTAND! "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more…" (Rev. 20:1-3). Now let us consider some pertinent questions. In this symbolic scene, who is it that has the key to the abyss? An angel! Where is the angel from? From heaven! Therefore, where did the key to the abyss come from? From heaven! What did the angel do? He bound the devil, shut him up in the pit, and locked it with the key! How, then, could Satan be the one who has the key? Impossible! Who is it that has bound, and does bind, the power of Satan? Our Lord Jesus Christ! Who is the symbolic "angel from heaven" all through the book of Revelation? Christ is! Ah, can we not see by this that the "destroyer," that is, Abaddon and Apollyon, is the Christ of God! This is not some negative entity out of a realm of darkness — this is CHRIST!"   (Eby #115 Candle Stick series)  Thoughts?

I see the angel with the key is from God and maybe Jesus gives him the key to open the pit and the evil king escapes with a large army, but I don't see the angel of the bottomless pit being christ. This is, rather wishful thinking. Just because Universal reconciliation is true, does not mean that all of a sudden evil beings, become fluffy hamsters  :icon_flower:.
Evil cannot be reasoned with, it's purpose is to thief, kill and destroy. Jesus paid a heavy price in order to disarm them.




Offline jabcat

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #221 on: November 08, 2011, 08:09:01 PM »
I see these as pertinent questions, Molly; 

"So God [or Job's carnal mind - addition mine] killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?

So who is this middleman called satan in the Job story?"


I believe that "middleman" is the tool, satan, used by God to accomplish His purposes - but that satan also does often work through our carnal mind, seeking to kill and destroy.  Looking at Job as a parable seems worth considering to me too, but even so, I'm still not sure there aren't plenty of other mentions of satan that would indicate a being rather then solely our carnal mind (Jesus' temptations, for just one example).   :2c:

Alright, I'll try to get back out and let others discuss.

IMO, we ALL see through a glass darkly, and this is probably not to be our biggest focus.   :bigGrin:

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #222 on: November 08, 2011, 08:32:48 PM »
Should I embrace this as a literal story only, what am I going away with? 
In spite of how much of a righteous life we live, God will turn satan loose on us with no warning "to" us or comfort "for" us through the attack.

If you read the whole story of Job in the Old Testament, the guy complained the entire time.  Yes, he had terrible things happen to him but the story is just so depressing.  He had everything ripped from him, he was tormented by those he once confided in, his own wife gave up on him and told him to just curse God and die . .get it over with.  That's what "we" as servants of the most High God have to look forward to?

What was Job's reward in the end?  He walked away with greater possessions than he had going in.  But the greater question for me is . . .was it really worth it?  Was it worth seeing his kids, the ones he loved so much he actually gave animal sacrifices on their behalf . . .only to see a tornado kill them all.  Was it worth it?  All that he had, all his livestock suffered and died, was it worth the death of all he had only to have it be replaced by more of the same?  Is "that" really all this story is about?  Worldly possessions???  A better wife than before, more cattle, more sheep . . .yay me.  Now what? 

And then there's still the fact that God talks more to satan here than he does to Job.  Job didn't have a clue that this was coming.  If you follow the storyline, he wasn't putting his trust in God because of his love for God . . .a Daniel or Joseph he wasn't.  What he kept reaffirming was the fact that regardless of how sick he was, how bad his life got, it wasn't because he did anything wrong, which was the traditional reasoning.  If you were sick it's because you had sin in your life.  That even carried over into the New Testament when the disciples asked Jesus what bad things this cripple guy did to become a cripple . . .

But to just take the story of Job at face value, there's so much of the nature of God that is missing for me. 

Shawn I LOVE what you wrote about how the NATURE of the adversary takes away family members, causes friends to make fun and despise you, bring you to a state of sickness even . . .you don't think your mind can make you sick?  You do realize worry is one of the greatest forces of nature . . .greater than hurricanes or tornadoes.  People literally go crazy . . .I mean . . .looney, they literally lose their minds because their mind became so warped and obsessed that it ruined their entire life. 

When Paul speaks about my mind being at enmity against God, for me that's a direct link to the relationship between Eve and the serpent.  That's not the first time Paul connected the dots between my mind and the serpent with Eve . . .see for yourself . . .

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ

Eve represents my mind, the serpent is the carnality that corrupted my mind. 

Offline Molly

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #223 on: November 08, 2011, 09:53:10 PM »
Quote from: Shawn
So can the carnal mind destroy homes, takes lives, steal health, steal wealth...basically cause catastrophic damage to a person and their family? No? I deal with a whole population of people that would disagree with you.

Yes, I can understand the population you are talking about, they destroy their own and each others lives.

But, not Job.  Job was a righteous man, perfect in all his ways.  We know this to be true, because God tells us so.

So it makes no sense that this would apply to Job.  Nor does he change when disaster after disaster begins to happen to him.  He stays faithful to God.  He passes the test.

No, I don't see this story as a parable.  Nor can anyone explain to me what it might mean as a parable.  Job stands for what? his wife stands for what? Satan stands for what?  His children stand for what? The sons of God stand for what?  The friends stand for what?

Quote from: TT
Just because Universal reconciliation is true, does not mean that all of a sudden evil beings, become fluffy hamsters .
Evil cannot be reasoned with, it's purpose is to thief, kill and destroy. Jesus paid a heavy price in order to disarm them.

Agree.  Jesus whole ministry is about destroying the enemy of God and man.

Quote from: Nathan
Should I embrace this as a literal story only, what am I going away with?
In spite of how much of a righteous life we live, God will turn satan loose on us with no warning "to" us or comfort "for" us through the attack

As a literal story, you will take away a lot.  Job is a righteous man, meaning he had Christ with which he overcame the evil one.  Greater is the one in you than the one in the world.  So take heart!  Persevere.  Job was given a double blessing at the end, the blessing of Joseph.

Quote
Was it worth it?

Yes, of course, because the conclusion is-- I know that my redeemer lives and in my flesh I shall see God.

It also gives us a look behind the scenes at what is going on in the heavenlies, which is part of the big picture for those of us who know that we literally will end up there ourselves.

My problem with treating everything as not literal is --where do you draw the line?  Ok no real Satan, so is there a real God?  No real enemy but the carnal mind, so is this all in my mind?  And so on.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 09:56:38 PM by Molly »

Offline shawn

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Re: SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"?
« Reply #224 on: November 08, 2011, 10:36:46 PM »
So, in your mind Molly it makes more sense to assume God was playing a cosmic game with the devil over the life of Job?  In your opinion, what was the purpose?