Author Topic: Rich man and Lazarus (again)  (Read 7166 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« on: April 30, 2010, 09:37:11 PM »
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm (UR site)
It's to big to quoute so 'll just post a few highlights.

The name "Lazarus" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Eleazar" (which means "God has helped"). The name was a common Hebrew word used for eleven different persons in the Old Testament

When one analyzes the parable, this Eleazar can be identified. He was one who must have had some kind of affinity with Abraham (or the Abrahamic covenant), for the parable places him in Abraham's bosom after death. But he was probably a Gentile. The phrase "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table" was typical of Gentile identification (see Matthew 15:2228). Even the phrase "laid at his gate" is reminiscent of the normal one used by Jews to denote the Gentile proselyte "Proselyte of the Gate." This Eleazar must also have been associated with stewardship because Christ gave the parable precisely for the reason of explaining what represents the true steward.

There was only one Eleazar in the historical part of the Bible that fits the description. He was a person associated with Abraham, he was a Gentile (not an ethnic part of the Abrahamic family), and a steward. He was Eleazar of Damascus, the chief steward of Abraham.

"And Abram said, 'Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eleazar [Lazarus] of Damascus and lo, one born in my house is mine heir.'"

Genesis 15:23
The Rich Man was an actual son of Abraham. Christ had him calling Abraham his "father" (Luke 16:24)
Rich Man = Judah

The parable says that a "great gulf" [Greek: chasm] was fixed between the position of Abraham and Eleazar and that of the Rich Man [Judah]. What was this chasm? The Greek word means a deep ravine or valley a great canyon with cliffs on each side. Its two sides were also "afar off"

Note the italicized word "pass." In all other occasions of its grammatical use in the New Testament, the word was used to denote a passage over water.

This would be the great rift valley between the highlands of Trans-Jordan and the hill country of Ephraim in which the River Jordan flows. This fault line is the greatest and longest visible chasm on earth. And what a spectacular sight it is! As one looks over the chasm he sees impressive cliffs on each side, a desert in its wastelands, and the River Jordan meandering in the center.
It divided the original land of promise given to Abraham from ordinary Gentile lands.
Recall also that the Rich Man was depicted as being in flames of judgment (verse 24). In this same rift valley were formerly located the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah which were "set forth for an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
The theme of Christ's narrative was true stewardship. Though Eleazar [Lazarus], Abraham's trusted steward, had disinherited himself from earthly rewards by his faithful obedience to Abraham's wishes, he was later to find himself (after death, when true inheritance comes) in Abraham's bosom. But the chief representative of Abraham's actual sons (Judah, the spiritual leader of all the Israelite tribes) remained East of Canaan as far as true inheritance was concerned. He had inherited all the physical blessings while in the flesh, but at death he was not allowed to pass the spiritual Jordan into the final Abrahamic inheritance.
The only Gospel to carry the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was Luke who was the companion of Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. It showed a specific message that Gentiles could now inherit the promises to Abraham provided they were faithful as Eleazar had been. Yet Paul did not want the Gentiles to be conceited in their new relationship with God.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 04:30:41 AM »
I gave this post to another site and they said the man was crazy and nuts. There is a degree of ignorance out there. Bless the Lord.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 09:16:49 AM »
Did they give an explanation? Or was it just that the rich man isn't burning?
The man had (died a few years ago) interesting views. For example he claims to have found the real location of the Temple.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 03:55:55 PM »
No explanation. Just crazy, but the person believes the story is true and literal...because it reads a "certain man." Wont see it any other way. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 04:04:49 PM »
Just like a certain shepherd with 100 sheep.
A certain woman with a coin.
A certain father with a prodical son.
A certain ... etc

There are many simple proofs it can't be literal. But I'm sure you already have read about them.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 06:55:54 PM »
I have something to talk about regarding the scriptures dealing with the parable or story.  I was just reading that in Jewish theology, just prior to and during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry,  they believed and taught that the place of the dead was divided into two sections.  One for the righteous and referred to as Abraham's bosom. And the other for the unrighteous.  This is what they thought Sheol was.   And not unlike what many religious folks think today regarding the Greek equivalent of  Hades, which many think is a place of punishment.  Its interesting how that Sheol was divided into two sections as opposed to the way Hades is now understood as only one place.   An inconsistency I think.  Anyway,  my point is, I'm thinking about the possibility that Jesus when he mentioned the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that Jesus was simply referring to the Jew's theology regarding Sheol.  It doesn't mean it was correct theology. Jesus may have simply referred to their false belief about Sheol for some reason.   Because as we now know, Sheol and Hades  mean the grave or unseen.  So my point is that  that story, or the theology behind the story didn't originate with Jesus. Jesus was simply referring to a belief that the Jews already had at the time, even if it was a false doctrine.  Which it is, if you believe that people are in an unconscious state in the grave, awaiting resurrection. Not to mention if you don't believe in a place of torment.   But why would Jesus refer to a false doctrine is what I'm wondering?   Any thoughts?   
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 07:08:50 PM by fullarmor2 »
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2011, 07:12:29 PM »
I was just thinking that perhaps Jesus was using the Jewish false belief about Sheol to illustrate his own teaching and warnings regarding the coming judgment against Israel.  A real possibility I think!
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 12:05:34 AM »
"....tormented in this flame...."

Flame ---> Fiery law ---> choked to death by 613 laws?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 12:49:28 AM »
  THE LAW WAS A TUTOR TO LEAD US TO CHRIST...OUR SAVIOUR.........

   MY POV  THE RICH MAN THAT LIVED IN SHAMELESS LUXURY WAS SATAN THAT TOOK OVER THE DOMINION

  OF THE EARTH[ALL THESE KINGDOMS I WILL GIVE TO YOU FOR ONE ACT OF WORSHIP]

   CHRIST THOUGH HE WAS RICH AS HEIR OF THE WHOLE CREATION..MADE HIMSELF POOR FOR OUR SAKES

    THE POOR MAN SIGNIFIED THE SONS OF aDAM WHO HAD BEEN MADE POOR BY THE ROBBER,THEIF AND

    KILLER  SATAN...jESUS WAS  SHOWING THAT WHEN MEN DIED THE WERE CARRIED TO THE BOSOM OF

  FATHER.......SATAN AS THE RICH MAN..HAD FIVE BROTHERS=OFFSPRING OF VIPERS   JESUS REPLY THAT

 THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS

 LET THEM LISTEN TO THEM= SATAN  USING THE LAW AND WORD OF GOD/PROPHETS TO KILL /CONDEMN

  MANKIND[SINS LAW]  FOR JESUS SAID 'THE COMMANDMENT WAS UNTO LIFE"  NOT DEATH AS

  SATAN USED IT FOR....AND AS SUCH GRACE WOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO THEM...FOR AS THEY HAD

  JUDGED MEN[AS UNWORTHY OF LIFE] SO TOO..THEY WOULD RECEIVE THAT JUDGEMENT...

   YOU SEE..LET NO MAN EVER THINK THAT WHEN HE IS TEMPTED THAT HE IS TEMPTED OF GOD

     jESUS TOLD THE RICH MAN..THAT IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO MOSES AND THE PROPHETS

   [WHICH LEAD TO CHRIST]  THEY WOULD NOT BE CONVINCED EVEN IF SOMEONE RAISES THE DEAD

    WHICH IS CHRIST...THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD[I AM THE RESURRECTION]

   

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 04:49:37 AM »
Please. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 04:31:32 PM »
My understanding is that this parable predates Jesus.  If this is the case, Jesus was using something that man created and in typical Jesus fashion turning it on it's head to address the hypocrisy of those who maintained that belief (Pharisees).  This parable isn't about heaven and hell, it's about first is last....last is first.  It's about religion vs spirituality.  It's about those who believe they are in good standing with God...but don't love the least of these. 

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 05:46:22 PM »
My understanding is that this parable predates Jesus.  If this is the case, Jesus was using something that man created and in typical Jesus fashion turning it on it's head to address the hypocrisy of those who maintained that belief (Pharisees).  This parable isn't about heaven and hell, it's about first is last....last is first.  It's about religion vs spirituality.  It's about those who believe they are in good standing with God...but don't love the least of these.

 :happyclap: :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 05:24:37 PM »
Proverbs 29;7  the righteous care about justice for the poor.....but the wicked have no such concern.....

   this is truth and life in the parable.......

     however there is also 'hidden manna' in it.....
.

      woe to him who builds up his house by unjust means[satan wrested dominion of earth[all the glory]

  from Adam and his offspring..in effect murdering him[may those who seek my life be put to shame

  and confusion, may all who desire my ruin be turned back in disgrace]....
.

   Adam was a son of God given dominion...the liar and murdere wrested it away from him.......just as

  the wicked servants killed Jesus Christ the heir to keep the vineyard for themselves...[mICHAEL AND

  HIS ANGELS FOUGHT]
[

   Yet,, I AM POOR AND NEEDY COME QUICKLY TO ME,O"GOD.....[..

  YOU ARE MY HELP AND DELIVERER,O"LORD DO NOT DELAY[HE WAS THROWN TO THE EARTH]

   the poor will see and be glad-you who seek God may your hearts live!!

    THE LORD HEARS THE NEEDY AND DOES NOT DESPIZE HIS CAPTIVE PEOPLE[SIN REIGNED]


    THE PROPHESY OF THE PROMISED SEED[SEED OF THE WOMAN] IN THE GARDEN..WAS

  GOD SHOWING THAT KINGSHIP AND DOMINION WOULD BE RESTORED/KINSMAN REDEEMER

  TO aDAM'S 'POOR' RELATIVES   TO THE BOSOM POSITION OF THE FATHER


  WHEN FATHER PASSED JUDGEMENT ON THE SERPENT FOR DECEIVING...HIS JU7DGEMENT

  WENT LIKE THIS.....CURSED ARE YOU ABOVE ALL THE LIVESTOCK AND ALL THE WILD ANIMALS

[BEASTS]..YOU WILL CRAWL ON YOUR BELLY[NOT STAND BEFORE ME] AND YOU WILL EAT DUST=

YOUR DOMINION IS LIMITED TO FLESH/DUST/ BODY OF MAN/BEAST........UNTIL PROMISED SEED CRUSHES

 YOUR 'HEAD' OR DOMINION OVER FLESH DUST//BODY OF MAN...

   THE BRUISING OF THE HEEL OF THE SEED SIGNIFY'S THE LIMIT OF SATANS POWER TO BRING DEATH

  THROUGH HIS REIGN OVER FLESH/DUST/EARTH....AND RESULTS IN HIS DEATH.
.

   THE NEW EARTH VOID OF DEATH/CURSE, UNDER NEW HEAVENS[HEAD] IS THE RESTORATION OF ALL

 THINGS.. THAT.THE LIAR AND MURDERER/ORIGINAL SERPENT  WRESTED FROM THE SONS OF GOD


      CERTAIN EVIL SPIRITS ASKED JESUS IF HE HAD COME TO TORMENT THEM BEFORE THE APPOINTED


 TIME[RICH MAN'S TORMENT] FOR THEY KNOW THE SENTENCE SPOKEN AGAINST THEM...THEY THIRST

  FOR WATER OF LIFE/OR WORD FROM GOD THEY SHALL RISE. AND STAND BEFORE HIM

   .BUT ARE GIVEN NONE...THE SIGN OF JONAH IS ALL THEY WILL RECEIVE...THAT THE VERY HEIR

  OF THE KINGDOM THAT WAS PUT TO DEATH BY THEM SHALL RISE FROM DEATH TO THE BOSOM

  POSITION OF GOD[even if someone should rise from the dead they shall not beleive]


   OF WHAT BENEFIT IS IT UNTO A MAN TO GAIN THE WHOLE EARTH BUT LOSE HIS SOUL/LIFE=

  ORIGINAL MAN OF SIN/LAWLESSNESS/ORIGINAL SERPENT/BEAST/SATAN/ADVERSARY/BABYLON/

  FALSE PROPHET/UNCLEAN SPIRIT/EVIL SPIRIT/LIAR AND THEIF/

  /USURPER OF THE THRONE AND DOMINION


  YOU ARE JUST IN THESE JUDGEMENTS,YOU WHO ARE AND WHO WERE, THE HOLY ONE

  BECAUSE YOU HAVE SO JUDGED, FOR THEY SHED THE BLOOD OF YOUR SAINTS AND PROPHTS,

AND YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM BLOOD TO DRINK AS THEY DESERVE


   NOW THE DWELLING OF GOD IS WITH MEN AND HE WILL LIVE WITH THEM AND BE THEIR GOD

  HE WILL WIPE EVERY TEAR FROM THEIR EYES. THERE WILL BE NO MORE DEATH OR

  MOURNING OR CRYING OR PAIN,FOR THE OLD ORDER OF THINGS HAS PASSED AWAY


  HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL INHERIT ALL THIS[HAVE NO FEAR LITLE FLOCK,I HAVE OVERCOME]

   John 17;2   For you granted him authority over all people,that He might give eternal life

  to all those you have given him


 

 

Offline Brian

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 05:11:26 PM »
Luke 16:19-31

Standard knee jerk response: "This can't be a parable because Jesus used a proper name and Jesus never uses a proper name in other parables."

AHEM! There are two proper names used. Do the two people named have anything in common? Why yes, they do. Something HUGE.


19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day (ISRAEL).

20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Eliezer (of Damascus)*, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

*Lazarus = Eliezer  = "But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer (of Damascus a GENTILE)?" - Genesis 15:2

Eliezer = GENTILES

22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man (ISRAEL) also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abram far away, with Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25 "But Abram replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' EXCEPT FOR THE CROSS OF JESUS WHICH BRIDGES THE GAP

27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Eliezer (of Damascus) GENTILES to my family (ISRAEL), 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they (ISRAEL) will not also come to this place of torment.'

29 "Abram replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30 "'No, father Abram,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" THAT SOMEONE BEING JESUS CHRIST
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 06:40:35 PM »
Luke 16:19-31

Standard knee jerk response: "This can't be a parable because Jesus used a proper name and Jesus never uses a proper name in other parables."
Except references to Himself. King, shepherd.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 08:20:25 PM »
 there is light in that post Brian.

   Abraham=God...Father of a multitude[isreal/gentiles]...Lazarus= Jesus  who suffered on earth.. firstborn of dead

  resurrected to bosom position[and all mankind that suffered because of evil]

  rich man satan[did you come to torment us before the time}

   water for tongue=waters of eternal life

Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 08:24:19 PM »
  one more thing.......law= sin entered when we disobeyed[Moses and prophets]..offspring of vipers

  judge law[sit in Moses seat/sins law]  like to place heavy burdens on men impossible to bear..

  and are not willing to lift their little finger

Offline Illuin

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 09:25:29 PM »
  THE LAW WAS A TUTOR TO LEAD US TO CHRIST...OUR SAVIOUR.........

   MY POV  THE RICH MAN THAT LIVED IN SHAMELESS LUXURY WAS SATAN THAT TOOK OVER THE DOMINION

  OF THE EARTH[ALL THESE KINGDOMS I WILL GIVE TO YOU FOR ONE ACT OF WORSHIP]

   CHRIST THOUGH HE WAS RICH AS HEIR OF THE WHOLE CREATION..MADE HIMSELF POOR FOR OUR SAKES

    THE POOR MAN SIGNIFIED THE SONS OF aDAM WHO HAD BEEN MADE POOR BY THE ROBBER,THEIF AND

    KILLER  SATAN...jESUS WAS  SHOWING THAT WHEN MEN DIED THE WERE CARRIED TO THE BOSOM OF

  FATHER.......SATAN AS THE RICH MAN..HAD FIVE BROTHERS=OFFSPRING OF VIPERS   JESUS REPLY THAT

 THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS

 LET THEM LISTEN TO THEM= SATAN  USING THE LAW AND WORD OF GOD/PROPHETS TO KILL /CONDEMN

  MANKIND[SINS LAW]  FOR JESUS SAID 'THE COMMANDMENT WAS UNTO LIFE"  NOT DEATH AS

  SATAN USED IT FOR....AND AS SUCH GRACE WOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO THEM...FOR AS THEY HAD

  JUDGED MEN[AS UNWORTHY OF LIFE] SO TOO..THEY WOULD RECEIVE THAT JUDGEMENT...

   YOU SEE..LET NO MAN EVER THINK THAT WHEN HE IS TEMPTED THAT HE IS TEMPTED OF GOD

     jESUS TOLD THE RICH MAN..THAT IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO MOSES AND THE PROPHETS

   [WHICH LEAD TO CHRIST]  THEY WOULD NOT BE CONVINCED EVEN IF SOMEONE RAISES THE DEAD

    WHICH IS CHRIST...THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD[I AM THE RESURRECTION]

 


Sheila, I think you are a bit confused with regard to what Satan's "role" is.  The idea that Satan was once a "holy angel" who fell is yet another of the many, many false doctrines of Babylon.


Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?

  • John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own [nature]: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


How long has Satan been a murderer? Did he start out as a good angel who went bad? "He [the devil] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him."


According to Genesis, the serpent was the most subtle of all of the 'beasts of the field', which the Lord God HAD MADE:

  • Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE."


Consider these texts:

  • Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL these things."

  • Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself, Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."


Who has made THE WICKED? Who CREATED EVIL?


God said: "I the Lord do ALL these things," such as: I CREATE EVIL; and I CREATE DARKNESS, and I MAKE EVEN THE WICKED!"



Consider these texts:

  • Job 26:13 "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT."

It has been said that this text is referring to a specific constellation of stars, not the serpent from the Garden, who is Satan, the devil, the Great Dragon, etc. (see Revelation 12:9).  But why would the word "garnished" (Hebrew - shiprah = beauty) be used for the creation of the stars which make up ALL of the constellations in the heavens, but the word "formed" (Hebrew - chalal = travailed) be used for the creation of one particular constellation of stars 'in the heavens' named "the crooked serpent?"  That makes little, if any sense. The only sure explanation is given in the verse below:

  • Revelation 12:9 "And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."


That OLD [crooked] SERPENT was cast down from heaven (Revelation 12:9) because God forced him out, he didn't "fall from grace".



Jesus plainly says that the devil was "a murderer from the beginning":

  • John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"


And John plainly says that the devil "sinneth from the beginning":

  • 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


Orthodoxy says: "the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning', and "the devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning'", but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning. Do I believe Jesus & John, or do I believe the doctrines of Mystery Babylon?

Be very careful out there. Many false doctrines abound  :mshock:





« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:41:49 PM by Illuin »
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 09:30:13 PM »
So since Cain slaying Abel was the first murder. Then it follows that Cain must be the devil since he committed the first murder and was a murderer from the beginning ...I don't think so.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Illuin

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 09:33:58 PM »
So since Cain slaying Abel was the first murder. Then it follows that Cain must be the devil since he committed the first murder and was a murderer from the beginning ...I don't think so.

Jesus plainly says that the devil was "a murderer from the beginning":

  • John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"


And John plainly says that the devil "sinneth from the beginning":

  • 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


Do you believe them?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:42:09 PM by Illuin »
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Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 09:42:06 PM »
 Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel.   the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did

  'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?

   and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him

Offline Illuin

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 09:51:29 PM »
Hi Illuin...but I don't believe satan was ever a holy angel.   the Lamb was 'slain" before the founding of the world..did

  'satan' do it..as the original murderer from the beginning.? did he slay the Lamb before this world began?

   and actually God forewarned Cain..that sin is a demon crouching at the door..and he [Cain] should get mastery over him

Jesus and John are talking about the devil's "NATURE" from his beginnings in these verses, not about any 'specific' deeds. The very NATURE of the devil (as he was created to be) is evil:


  • John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own [nature]: for he [his nature] is a liar, and the father of it."


Satan is a being created just the way he is, for God's purposes.

  • Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."
The same SUN that melts wax, hardens clay

Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 09:54:13 PM »
 yes and evil tool/wicked contrast......I see the abomination  of desolation as he that should not be...a wing of the temple=

  a spirit in the temple of God[or sin entered..into man and all died]

Offline sheila

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 10:12:12 PM »
also..men he posesses...such as religious leaders in Jesus day[offspring of vipers] those who kill with the 'letter' of the law

[pens of lying scribes]  are examples of that spirit in action.  who 'judge' law..to kill..but do not keep law in the spirit[lawless one

 revealed].

   they mistakenly think...there is no law against the spirit...and that is true for the Holy spirit..but the evil spirit is the wicked contrast

  tool..and he is the lawless one and is condemned by the very law he judged..when he tempted man..and lied in the

 beginning....to entice him to sin and thus be condemned to die./sin's law.

Offline Illuin

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Re: Rich man and Lazarus (again)
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 10:35:51 PM »
yes and evil tool/wicked contrast......I see the abomination  of desolation as he that should not be...a wing of the temple=

  a spirit in the temple of God [or sin entered..into man and all died]

Yes, but never forget that "man was DEAD [naked]" to begin with. When they ate the fruit of the tree of 'the knowledge of good and evil', it did not cause them to BECOME NAKED, it only caused them to "REALIZE they were already NAKED to begin with."  :wink2:

  • Romans 7:7 "........I would not have come TO KNOW sin [realize I was naked] except through the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Paul says: "I would not have come to KNOW sin......... EXCEPT through the Law" In other words, I would not have come to "the knowledge of good and evil [sin]", except through the Law.



Man did not "fall", because he had nowhere to fall. Sin entered through one man (Adam), but not because he "willfully sinned" and disobeyed God. Most people have this backwards. Adam "willfully disobeyed" God BECAUSE "the creature [Adam - and you and I] was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY - NOT WILLINGLY - BUT BY REASON OF HIM":

  • Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God], who hath subjected the same in hope."


This is confirmed by a second witness, Jeremiah:

  • Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


Paul breaks the two verses above down to specifics here:

  • 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
    1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
    1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". It is corruptible flesh that is FIRST, the incorruptible SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around.


Jeremiah 18:4 is now easily understood thanks to Paul breaking it down for us.

  • Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel [THE FIRST MAN ADAM] that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel [THE LAST MAN ADAM], as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Notice:

  • 1 Corinthians 15:45-46 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29], but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 11:39:18 PM by Illuin »
The same SUN that melts wax, hardens clay