Author Topic: Resurrection unto death  (Read 4805 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2011, 10:32:03 PM »
Amen!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2011, 03:51:15 AM »
I think, that in this passage, "damnation" is a word that is too strong: the Greek word (at least according to the Interlinear Scripture Analyser) is something like, "kriseos", which, in 2 Peter 2:9, is associated with "kolazomenous" in (like kolasis I presume, referring to corrective punishment). In this way, I would say that, whatever this verse actually refers to, it is corrective in nature.

Blessings to all! :)

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 03:53:19 AM »
AMEN! :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2011, 10:14:37 AM »
Until you lay down your dictionaries and concordances, you're not ever going to see what I'm saying or agree with what I'm trying to share.
To be honest I don't care about anything shared that can't be found in them (or the Bible itself).  It's not the dictionaries and concordances that gave rise to so much false teachings. It was "Yeah, HS wrote that but actually He meant this...." that cause most of teh trouble.
 :2c:
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 10:29:59 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2011, 04:53:01 PM »
ww, your post reminded me of the vision given to Peter on the rooftop.........a cloth come down from heaven,with all kinds of creatures on it..both clean

  and unclean...three times...and went back up.How could they ascend back up unless they had come down?    'RISE PETER,KILL AND EAT"....

   the literal interpretation? I beleive the christian crusades followed that when they warred and killed 'heretics" in a literal way.

   quit calling unclean what God has cleansed.

    This vision proves that men of various understandings come down from heaven[spirits]lowered...'rise,Peter' shows understanding,resurrection/spiritual...

   Was it a literal meaning to kill? or a spiritual  raising?

    I suggest you do a study on that exhortation of the Holy spirit and see if you can come up with the correct spiritual interpretation by

  a literal'word' translation

   and Micah,how can these 'creatures' come down from heaven,then go back up?

     the whole vision speaks of men without understanding[as beasts] ignorance slayed in them...and ascending back into heaven,from whence they came

    the whole purpose of the good evil exercize of spiritual sons of God[man without understanding is as a beast]

   So, I challenge you,ww, to give a word by word 'correct translation'of the above...and 'prove' your hypothesis......for I tell you..it is God through the spirit

  of Christ that gives the perfect translation.   ONLY HE CAN OPEN THE SEALS...   a 'word' in itself can have several meanings...the spirit behind the spoken word

  alone knows the intent...whether to kill or make alive...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2011, 06:37:24 PM »
ww, your post reminded me of the vision given to Peter on the rooftop.........a cloth come down from heaven,with all kinds of creatures on it..both clean

  and unclean...three times...and went back up.How could they ascend back up unless they had come down?    'RISE PETER,KILL AND EAT"....

   the literal interpretation? I beleive the christian crusades followed that when they warred and killed 'heretics" in a literal way.

   quit calling unclean what God has cleansed.

    This vision proves that men of various understandings come down from heaven[spirits]lowered...'rise,Peter' shows understanding,resurrection/spiritual...

   Was it a literal meaning to kill? or a spiritual  raising?

    I suggest you do a study on that exhortation of the Holy spirit and see if you can come up with the correct spiritual interpretation by

  a literal'word' translation

   and Micah,how can these 'creatures' come down from heaven,then go back up?

     the whole vision speaks of men without understanding[as beasts] ignorance slayed in them...and ascending back into heaven,from whence they came

    the whole purpose of the good evil exercize of spiritual sons of God[man without understanding is as a beast]

   So, I challenge you,ww, to give a word by word 'correct translation'of the above...and 'prove' your hypothesis......for I tell you..it is God through the spirit

  of Christ that gives the perfect translation.   ONLY HE CAN OPEN THE SEALS...   a 'word' in itself can have several meanings...the spirit behind the spoken word

  alone knows the intent...whether to kill or make alive...

 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2011, 07:23:17 PM »
The Spirit gives the meaning, makes alive.  Amen.

However, if we say the Spirit has given us something, but it clearly/directly contradicts the written Word, IMO, we have a "problem".  Many say "thus and thus", but I want to be able to go to the written Word and at least find the foundation for that assertion - and NO scrips that contradict it.   :2c:

« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:37:42 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2011, 07:37:01 PM »
Sometimes a person is really doing that (going along with the written Word) we just have to look and be sure.  Sometimes not.  It can be a "tricky" balance - open to the Spirit, checking against the Word - without quenching the Spirit.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2011, 07:42:40 PM »
Really?  Are you hearing what you're saying bro?  We are saved by grace through FAITH . .. right?  "Yeah, I believe Jesus died for me and I give my life to him . . .but . . .I want proof!!!

Confining myself to a definition, to a verse, to a concordance, they are nothing more than "helps" but they aren't where truth lies.  Truth is not what my mind PERCEIVES Scripture to say.  Truth is what the Spirit reveals Scripture is saying.

Jesus tried telling us, in the kingdom, it's not going to work like it does in this realm.  In the spirit realm what is greatest in the natural, is least in the spiritual.  What is first in the natural is last in the spiritual . . .when the Sabbath day comes, the rules are the opposite than they were for the previous 6 days leading up to the Sabbath.  6 being the days of labor and the number of man.

What you're saying then is, you want to be spiritually born, but you want your natural man to retain the right for approval of the spiritual birth.

I'm just not willing to rely on "anyone's" mind.  Not mine, not yours . . .not someone's definition and not even someone's translation or interpretation.  Spiritual is opposite of natural.  If I walk in the spirit then the things that are in operation in the natural (my mind) need to be brought into submission so I can be free to see the things in the spirit.  Do you "really" want to rely on what you're mind thinks?  Really???

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2011, 08:28:11 PM »
1Co 2:14  and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
1Co 2:15  and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2011, 08:28:36 PM »
Are you addressing me Nathan?   If so, I believe that if you, me, or an angel says anything clearly contrary to what's written (and spiritually revealed) it's not to be believed.  You say you won't accept what anyone's "mind" says.  Conversely, you want me or anyone else to just accept whatever anyone chooses to say, claiming it's "spiritual", without any discernment or "standard" of which to check it against?  That's a recipe for "every wind of doctrine".   Have you not seen the error floating around today, claiming to be spiritual, when in fact much of it is loaded with New Age thinking and all sorts of anti-scriptural, anti-Yeshua deceit?

Are you saying you believe we're in "the seventh day" so the scriptures are no longer relevant?  I don't really think that's totally how you feel, but if that's not what you mean, maybe you could clarify. 

I have no personal qualms with what you personally have been saying recently.  I believe you have a lot of good things to share.   

But for me, the Spirit and the written Word don't cancel each other out, they work together.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 08:41:47 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2011, 09:01:16 PM »
Absolutely they work together.  The issue that I'm trying to emphasize here is not throw one out over another, my issue is "what order" are we to receive it?  Do I take the Scriptures "first" and let them direct my spirit?  Or, do I listen to the Spirit and let it reveal the Word "in" the Scriptures?  And "my" vote on that one is definitively the latter because the former is based on natural reason more than spiritual discernment.  There was a line drawn by Jesus when Peter received his first revelation.  Peter didn't come to his conclusions through personal studying of the Word and Jesus made sure Peter recognized that it wasn't flesh and blood that revealed that to him.  Spirit reveals and "in" that revelation, the Scripture affirms.

The reason why this is important is because the Spirit ascends us . . .he elevates us up into a realm where our minds can't predict or conceive, which means our reasoning no longer applies here.  And "in" that place, our minds are then affected by the change of elevated venue, we "become" what we behold and in "that" perspective we read Scripture as it was intended to be read, which is inwardly . . .

On the other side, if I take Scripture first, because my mind is not spirit but flesh, it is easily deceived and the zeal in me becomes misguided because I'm trying to read something that was written in an elevated place, and I'm trying to wrap my mind around something written for another realm.  "That's" why it's foolishness to everyone else.  They read it from a natural perspective and call it spiritual and those that are already listening to the spirit "in" them can see it from where the Spirit has brought them and it'll have a whole other affect in us.

If you receive truth in Scripture from what's being spoken within you, it becomes "your" experience.  But if you are basing it on what others have written and you're just copying it over, then it's not "your" experience, it's someone elses experience, it's "your" argument.  That's why we want to rely on "proof".  Truth doesn't need Scripture to "prove". Our minds demand proof, but truth requires faith.

I gotta cut this short, my access to this computer has ended and I gotta go find another one.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2011, 09:17:01 PM »
Well, first of all, I'm not denying spiritual things.  I am saying though, many claim things are spiritual, when in fact, they are in error.  And the scriptures are a "bottom line", WHEN ACCURATELY TRANSLATED AND SPIRIT REVEALED.  I AM NOT talking about just going by the letter, but I'm also not OK with people saying "whatever, will nilly, just believe me" either.

You said "you're saved by grace through faith, but you want proof?"   Firstly, I think that kind of pushes the envelope of what I'm personally saying.  However, where did you get that line from, "saved by grace"?   What if someone told you "you're saved by works through effort"?  What would you check that against?  Don't you think many people could be fooled by that?

I'm not even sure you and I have that big of a gripe with each other/are that far apart on this;  it was your reaction, so it must mean something to you.  I was trying to support sheila and WW.  But, now that we're here, I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from.  I won't even say who said this awhile back on the boards.  But someone gave this advice;  "sin all you want", i.e., God will take care of it, grace will cover it and "fix it", etc.    Well, exactly what do the scriptures say about that?

Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace?  God forbid!   Romans 6:1,2

So tell me, who should I believe, and against what do I check that person's "spiritual advice"?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2011, 09:53:19 PM »
And I've got absolutely no issues against you either bro.  In fact, if I'm to have this kind of conversation, I'm extremely happy to have it with you because there's more of a freedom to share without the concern that I'll offend you by it.

And . . .I so love your question and had every intention of getting to that point but ran out of time . . .which . .I'm kinda short on again here as well, but I really want to touch on this because I do think it's an awesome question.  and . .for me, the answer is really simple.

What I rely on is, the fruit of the situation.  The end result.  The sum of the message that someone is speaking, or, the end result of their actions.  What came of it?  Life?  or Death?  If I am relying on the SOUND of his voice . . .the same sound that reveals spiritual truth in Scripture to me will also speak to me as to what is abuse and what is bondage.

I've never said "just take my word for it I'm right".  It may be read that way, but that's not my intentions.  My desire is, rather than rely on our interpretation of what we think Scripture is saying about a subject, that we instead, listen for the sound of the situation to see where it aligns with the sound of life in us.  it's very easy to do.  Is there life in the idea that I can live however I want cuz I know I have a free ticket in the end?  Is that really what truth is speaking to me inwardly?

I will tell you no.  it's not because those that live like that are catering more to their flesh, which immediately the life/death dial swings difinitively toward "death".  There are only two voices at work in every situation.  Spiritual and carnal . . .same with in every one of us . . .there are two nations at war in all of us . . .there is a Jacob and there is an Esau.  The Esau side of us is our beastly nature .  .our natural man . . .he relies on flesh to sustain him, he's a hunter of flesh . . .that's an awesome picture of what's going on inside of us when you read the whole story in that light.

Jesus then comes out and says nation will fight against nation . . .the message isn't about doom and gloom to the world, but the carnality in me . . .it's a message that "appears" to be about death on the surface but underneath, it's about life and freedom.  Just like the ten plagues were plagues to the Egyptians . .. but underneath, it was the preparation of freedom comng to the Israelites.

My mind, in and of itself can not see these things . . .so again, why would one want to rely on what the mind sees Scripture to say when there is an infinite realm of truth in the spirit of what has been written?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2011, 10:11:25 PM »
So, I challenge you,ww, to give a word by word 'correct translation'of the above...and 'prove' your hypothesis......for I tell you..it is God through the spirit
I won't take that challange.
But don't see that as proof for your view. I'm just someone that plays with smilies on a Christian forum. I never claimed I have all the answers. To be honest I don't have  a clue what verses you wrote about.
I want to add your request is a bit unfair. I could ask you to do the same with a spiritual explanation. But that would be a very simple request. I can explain every problematic concept in a spirital way. Just write something and add a lot "God showed me" and that's it.
Besides that I'll refuse to take that route it would prove nothing. In theory I can convince people of something by showing a number of verses that prove my view is right. But how would I prove that the HS revealed me something spiritual? It would be 100% impossible to refute my views. Well....., maybe it could be refuted by Scripture. But that's just the road I suggested and raises bloodpressure by some.


Another thing I keep noticing that you, and others, seem to have a black and white view on things. If it isn't spiritual then it must be literal. For me it's all about patterns. So while I'm convinced the Bible teaches Jesus was a Lamb, I'm also convinced Jesus wasn't a sheep. That's a contradiction....until you see the pattern.
I so often mention patterns and quite often explained my view on them. And still.... :sigh:
And it's are those patterns I'm looking for. Not for literal things. I simply don't accept a spiritual view if a pattern can't be shown. A pattern is a link between spiritual and literal things. Call me misguided, but it's my belief that even the deepest revelation of the HS somehow links to some literal verses through a pattern.

Now I'll try to explain why word defenitions are of such great importance.
Literal things are used to establish a pattern that point and verifies spiritual things.
BUT! if we don't understand the meaning of words the pattern is build with false assumptions. That (possibly) gives a false pattern. And false patterns allow false spiritual 'facts' to be promoted.
A chain is a strong as it's weakest link. A spiritual truth is as false as the biggest lie/mistake it's build on.

 
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2011, 10:32:51 PM »
   i like patterns,too! WW :bigGrin:

   AS FAR AS BLACK AND WHITE GOES......two spirits,two men....but yes,when satan transform himself into an angel of light..you can expect gray areas.

  also,in us...as long as sin remains in our flesh...there is 'darkness' to an extent.  Now,my pov is you lean to the 'technical' side of the word...[constraint].

  and yours is I lean to far the other[too liberal].. What can I say,God has made us each so?  Maybe we can learn something beneficial from each other. :thumbsup:

    Irregardless of that,I always appreciate your contribution,know you are loved of Him..and consider you my brother :HeartThrob:

                                               peace Bro

Offline Nathan

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2011, 11:02:02 PM »
A couple things WW . . .I know I frustrate you from time to time and sometimes I'll admit, I do it on purpose, but it's not to goad you into an argument, but it's to see if "you" believe what you're saying, or if your just repeating something you've dug up in your research that someone else stated.

So, I know a while back you would claim you're an atheist, is that still true?

And two, and a little more closer to our contentional line . . . I was a bit surprised at your last post where you stated you're more prone to look for patterns.  Because many of my points of contention with you haven't been about pattern, but about definition of a word.  But because of your emphasis of the importance of defining the word before constructing the pattern, that kind of explains itself as to why I didn't pick up on the fact you search for patterns.

As you well know I'm pretty much the opposite in my initial approach to Scripture . . .to be totally honest with you, I don't ever read Scripture with the conscious thinking that "okay, how can I see this differently from what is actually written?"  When I read Scripture, I'll just read it like anyone else, but then stuff starts flying out of the story and I hardly ever get more than 3 or 4 verses at the most when I have to stop and address the patterns that are forming themselves.  I'm not looking "for" them so much as just seeing them as they form themselves.

I don't have charts written down so I can remember the patterns or numerology or colors or whatnot.  It's a river . . .when I read Scripture, it gets the river to flow . . .I can turn it off like a faucet, but I can also turn it back on again as well.  And the more it matures in me, the harder it is for me not to apply it to all the conversations going around in the forum.  it's kinda become a part of my personality.  It's not an opinion anymore.  it's not an observation or an idea, a theology or a doctrine . .. it's kinda overtaken all of that and now it's the biggest share of me and half the time, I do all I can to just hang on to where it's going. 

And when you and I tie up in a thread, my responses to you aren't from personal offenses, my responses are to the message, not to the messenger.

I'm in another conversation right now on another forum that's unfortunately not UR for the most part, but I brought up 1 Corinthians 3 and asked the guy to explain to me how he sees it to read.  It's the one about those who build upon the foundation of Christ using a range of different kinds of materials, be it gold, silver, hay, wood or stubble . . .all their works will be tested by fire and if they used wood or straw, they will suffer great loss but the builder will be spared . . .you know the one?

I'd never heard the argument against that and I was just curious . . .the guy came back and said it's not about unbelievers versus believers . .it's about believers only.  He's reading what's literally there.  He doesn't see the fact that his conclusions are contradictory to the "nature" of who God is.  His mind is embracing the literal words that are there.  He's got the literal definitions, but he's still very much off the mark.  And "that's" my point here as well.  I don't read Scripture by definition so much because my first concern is, is it in line with God's nature. 

Because as I've said before in conversations such as this, the Pharisees were the elite of the elite when it came to knowing the original definitions, and they were lightyears ahead of us even moreso due to the fact that their personal history was the culture from when these things were unfolding.  They had it all.  But they still couldn't recognize Jesus was the Son of God and he was standing right in front of them.  That's why I say I don't rely on what my mind concludes. 

It's exactly as you said, if the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal to us what is being said, then we're warped from the beginning.

Would you have ever guessed when Peter saw the blanket drop in front of him with all those unclean animals and the conversation Peter had about what he can and can't eat, would you ever have guessed that it was "really" about God turing "from" the Jews "to" the Gentiles with the good news?  That wasn't even hinted at in the dream.  It was a huge enough deal that God was telling Peter, for the first time in Peter's religious life, that it's okay to eat a pig now!  I would think "that" would have been monumental enough.  But out of "that" little revelation came the fact that God was going to offer the same gift to the Gentiles that he'd offered the Jews.

Only the Holy Spirit could reveal that depth of meaning.  Which again is why I pose the question . . .why rely on my mind when we already know our minds are finite and flesh?  Why can't we rely solely on the sound of his voice "in" us without our minds approval as to whether the definition is accuarte or not?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2011, 12:27:52 AM »
Why can't we rely solely on the sound of his voice "in" us without our minds approval as to whether the definition is accuarte or not?

IMO, that's where the written Word and the Spirit witness with each other.  Also, many people apparently aren't hearing His voice "inside us", when they must think they are.  How many people who believe in ET think they're led by the Spirit?  But a little information about 'aion' and 'hell', along with the Spirit's revelation when it's their time to hear, can open their eyes.  How many people pushing New Age doctrines off as truth, believe they are being led by the Spirit?  I'd guess most of them think they're right?  They're listening to a "voice".  Take what they're saying to the written Word, have the Spirit quicken it, and one can see many of them are wolves in sheep's clothing, ripping apart the flock.

I don't know;  there's a balance here, I'm not saying I always know where it is or always get it right.  Your position may be hard to state Nathan, and some of it also may be my "hearing". 

I'm editing this.  Nathan you asked,  "Why can't we rely solely on the sound of his voice "in" us without our minds approval as to whether the definition is accuarte or not?"     

What do you think about this scrip?

 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.  2 Timothy 3:16
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 06:42:25 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline shawn

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2011, 02:01:08 AM »
I'm not big on rescuing, but I feel something needs said.  I have read many of Nathans posts here and writings outside of this board.  Not once have I seen something that can't be supported scripturally.  I have however seen much of what he writes go against current doctrines preached in churches.  I have see those who are dogmatic about issues, become irritated with him on many occasions when their dogma is challenged.  Personally, I want my dogmas challenged, I want my world shaken by the roots.

For me to read and receive Nathan's posts I have to find a dose of humility.  Why is that?  Because, I like to think I really know my Bible.  I like to think of myself as a spiritual guy.  After reading some of his stuff, I feel like I know little.  I see much truth and wonder why I could have missed that all these years.  I have not seen Nathan decrease the significance and importance of the Scriptures.  I have seen him challenge how we are supposed to use them in our walks.  I have seen him challenge how we are to use them in our understanding.  I have seen him challenge the way we discern. 

I'm not sure why I see so many posts where Nathan is needing to defend himself.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 02:07:10 AM by shawn »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2011, 06:22:21 AM »
Sorry Nathan for being too persistent.  If things are alluded to several times, I may question them or ask for clarification.  Maybe in this case I've said too much, and it may have appeared I was "picking on you".

We all say things that don't come across as exactly what we really believe, myself included.

You can either address my thoughts or not. 

Blessings, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2011, 06:59:26 AM »
Whew!  Where to go from here!
First thing that comes to mind right now is "Thy word, is a lamp unt my feet, and light unto my path . . ."  What "word" is it that's a lamp and a light?  Scripture or the inner word in us?  Jabcat, the first line you wrote in your response  ..  .totally agree with you.  Without the author breathing in me there'd be no illumination to the Word at all.  Kind of like . . .ha, kinda . . as if . . .it's JUST like in the holy place where the candlestick's flame illuminates the table of shewbread.  The light of truth is the only source that can illuminate the words on the pages of Scripture and bring them to life in us.

My personal desire is not to be right or to prove I'm accurate.  That would put way too much pressure on me being accurate every time.  My desire is that  . . if you pardon my expression, but it's my desire that I get you pregnate.  I want to reproduce life.  I want to not only know, but also "be" in that abundant life Jesus spoke so much about.  I want to harmonize with the sound of truth and life in what others bring to the table.  But none of those things will happen in me if my spiritual aignment is out of order.  Should Scripture align with what the Spirit is saying in us?  uh .  . yeah-ah. 

To Shawns supportive post, I do remember creating some concern around this in the past as well.  Scripture is like salvation . . . if I can put this right without mudyying the waters even worse.  But coming into UR did rasie some questions about the importance and purpose of asking Christ into my heart bengs the final destination would be the same for all anyway.  But in maturing furthing into the UR understanding, i've come to understand it's ony increased the importance of Salvation, but the motivation has changed consderably.  Now, I'm not needing salvation based on my fear of going to hell if I dont'.  Now, I see it's importance is connected with the ability to see spiritual truths . . .God cant reveal them if there's no relationship there through which he operates.

It's the same for me with Scripture.  It's no less important, but the motivator as to "why" it's important has changed.  Now, it's not about needing to know it in order to build or base my belief.  Now, it's important because it's the matrix that leads me"into" the dimensions of God in the first place.  But relying on what I read still has no guarantees that my interpretation will be accurate if my mental belief is biased already.  I still agree with you Jabcat, we're both in agreement for the most part.  Scripture and spiritual discernment or revelation or whatever we call it, should always be in harmony with each other.  My whole point on it though is, if we put spirit ahead of Scripture, we'll not need to worry about one contradicting the other so much because the autor of Scripture is the one doing the leading in the first place.

Have you ever found yourself in an argument with someone and you really aren't in an arguing mood but for some reason, you're still in the middle of it, you hear yourself say stuff that prolongs the argument, but you don't know why that's happening?  I wonder if in this case, there's a level of the subconscious that is just automatically proddng things when our conscious side really doesn't see a distinct reason for it.  Perhaps the "idea" of someone being foolish enough to imply that knowledge may not be as much as a priority as our comfort zone sees it to be, could be what's underneath it all? 

If you think about it, it really "is" easier to let the spirit "show" us things we can't  fully comprehend, than put all our efforts in to accumulating knowledge in the attempt to try to see the same things.  But our minds have trouble fathoming the idea tht it could be "that" simple of a concept??

Oh and by the way, I welcome the questions  . .I love the opportunity of someone opening a door, especially when there's no condemning overtones mixed in with it.  Which clearly are not visible here for me at all Jabcat, so . . .if you have any other questions or want further clarification on somehting, by all means, feel free to ask!!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2011, 07:04:11 AM »
I'm in agreement :)

I do think I'll PM something though, as friend to friend.

Thanks, good post. 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2011, 07:57:28 AM »
Oh . . .I forgot . . .the Sabbath thing, the reason why I didn't go into it that much is because I've mentioned it several times before . . .

Qucikly . . .it's the "day is as a thousand years" principle . . .it's was roughly 4 thousand years from Adam to Jesus . . .it was on the fourth day the sun, moon and stars were created.  Elements of illumination.  From Jesus to today, it's "been" another 2,000 years . . .which then makes it a total of 6 days. We are at the dawning of the 7th day.  Not just us as individuals, but the whole earth is there.  Which is telling me the atmosphere spiritually has shifted from the laws of labor to the law of rest.  Which then when you overlay that with the fact that there seems to be a surgeance of UR going on around us, I believe there's a definite connection. 

Now, at the same time, there will always be those that would challenge the math.  Once again, being more of one who pursues spirit over natural, I see this Sabbath Day thing as a personal positioning anyway so if they want to argue semetics I say let them.  However . . .there "is" one other piece to the math that they "can't" question.  And that is the fact that Jesus stated "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up."  yeah, we know he was talking about his physical body  . .but again, everything is dimensional.  And are we not all living stones being fashioned and positioned into the house of God as we speak?  So . . .Jesus said "that" two days ago and today is the dawning of the third day which is when SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE should be  able to start seeing a resurrected church where the message is not about destruction, but resurrection . . .and once again, I think UR fits that bill to a "t" as well.  So, either way, it's a win/wn.

One last piece to the other discussion . . .why am I so bent on spiritual sound "in" me taking precedence over Scriptural translations and interpretations?

1 Corinthians 2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 
For me, this only affirms everything else I've already stated on the matter.  I hope you can see the same way as well.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2011, 09:36:43 AM »
   i like patterns,too! WW :bigGrin:

   AS FAR AS BLACK AND WHITE GOES......two spirits,two men....but yes,when satan transform himself into an angel of light..you can expect gray areas.

  also,in us...as long as sin remains in our flesh...there is 'darkness' to an extent.  Now,my pov is you lean to the 'technical' side of the word...[constraint].

  and yours is I lean to far the other[too liberal]..
That's not what I'm saying. Maybe each and every letter you wrote on this forum is absolute truth. If that's true you aren't to liberal at all. My point is that I like some way of verifying your truth. I wanna be sure the words you wrote come from HS or satan dressed as an angel of light. If I trust everyone I'm in great trouble because internet is filled with contradicting teachings of people who saw the spiritual side. Yeah, you can toss the lexicon lovers on that same heap :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Resurrection unto death
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2011, 10:43:31 AM »
A couple things WW . . .I know I frustrate you from time to time and sometimes I'll admit, I do it on purpose, but it's not to goad you into an argument, but it's to see if "you" believe what you're saying, or if your just repeating something you've dug up in your research that someone else stated.
I posted many things, and many of those things are views of others. In that case I post a link to the article. By now I posted more than can be researched in a lifetime. But I usually filter things a bit. So in those cases I post my view.
Sometimes I see people discussing things and just post an article without having a real opinion on it. In those cases I hope it's of use for those taking part of that discussion. Or I post something I disagree with in the UR refuted sections. I also like to do some brainstorming and ask for feedback of my toughts. THIS thread is the best example of that.

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So, I know a while back you would claim you're an atheist, is that still true?
I think I'm becoming a Jekyll and Hyde :winkgrin: Let's just say that calling myself a Christian is an insult to every Christian.

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And two, and a little more closer to our contentional line . . . I was a bit surprised at your last post where you stated you're more prone to look for patterns.  Because many of my points of contention with you haven't been about pattern, but about definition of a word.  But because of your emphasis of the importance of defining the word before constructing the pattern, that kind of explains itself as to why I didn't pick up on the fact you search for patterns.
I'm not always looking for patterns. It's hard to explain how my brain works. But basicly I collect massive amounts of information and do some pre-filtering. But everythig is remembered. I don't fear leaving the flock to find my stuff. And then suddenly, even when doing something totally unrelated, I see two bits of info allign. I truely don't know how I do those things. The searching for defenitions give me more info to store. Info that can proof useful for later use. I don't know how to explain my thought process. I very often do things while thinking of other things.
I'm sure Jabcat has some professional views on that :winkgrin:
I can't explain it. Let's just say I'm usually doing one thing. Even if it looks like one thing it often isn't  :mshock:


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As you well know I'm pretty much the opposite in my initial approach to Scripture . . .to be totally honest with you, I don't ever read Scripture with the conscious thinking that "okay, how can I see this differently from what is actually written?"  When I read Scripture, I'll just read it like anyone else, but then stuff starts flying out of the story and I hardly ever get more than 3 or 4 verses at the most when I have to stop and address the patterns that are forming themselves.  I'm not looking "for" them so much as just seeing them as they form themselves.
It that case you may understand part of what I wrote just above.
It's almost impossible for me tho read a whole chapther. It goes a bit like this. Jesus says something about a goat. Then my mind automaticly jumps to Leviticus. Or when I read about Peleg my mind jumps to secular science. So for me it starts flying to. But in another direction.

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I'm in another conversation right now on another forum that's unfortunately not UR for the most part, but I brought up 1 Corinthians 3 and asked the guy to explain to me how he sees it to read.  It's the one about those who build upon the foundation of Christ using a range of different kinds of materials, be it gold, silver, hay, wood or stubble . . .all their works will be tested by fire and if they used wood or straw, they will suffer great loss but the builder will be spared . . .you know the one?
I know the concept but not in what book it can be found. I make extensive use of electronic Bibles to search. After all this time I still can't name all the books of the OT or NT. Many/most on this forum read whole chapthers/books for context. I do so to but on a much more limited scale. I look for a red thread as my context. So while for many the context of Romans 6:8 is Romans 6:1-15 for me it is Gen 3:25, Leviticus 2:3-8 and Revelation 1:8-10. Just as an example. The verses are totally unrelated. Maybe that's the reason I don't know all the books in The Bible.


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I'd never heard the argument against that and I was just curious . . .the guy came back and said it's not about unbelievers versus believers . .it's about believers only.  He's reading what's literally there.  He doesn't see the fact that his conclusions are contradictory to the "nature" of who God is.  His mind is embracing the literal words that are there.  He's got the literal definitions, but he's still very much off the mark.  And "that's" my point here as well.  I don't read Scripture by definition so much because my first concern is, is it in line with God's nature.
I think part of the works of all people that ever lived will be burned up. That's what I get from literal things. I see 2 judgements. One of works and one of faith. The moment I wrote judgement my mind jumps to the defenition stored somewhere in my head. A very interesting defenition that opens huge doors for UR views I might add.

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Because as I've said before in conversations such as this, the Pharisees were the elite of the elite when it came to knowing the original definitions, and they were lightyears ahead of us even moreso due to the fact that their personal history was the culture from when these things were unfolding.  They had it all.  But they still couldn't recognize Jesus was the Son of God and he was standing right in front of them.  That's why I say I don't rely on what my mind concludes.
Very little of what said was of His own. Take for example the parables. They were (almost) all commonly used by the leaders to teach the common people. "Pluck out your eye" was just one of a whole series of teachings about the same thing. Yes the Pharisees had their flaws. Question to you. Say you are forced to place a $10000 bet on the average (or best) Pharisee teacher or Christian teacher. Jesus will judge their teachings on correctness.
On who would you put your money? I would put it on the Pharisee.

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Only the Holy Spirit could reveal that depth of meaning.  Which again is why I pose the question . . .why rely on my mind when we already know our minds are finite and flesh?  Why can't we rely solely on the sound of his voice "in" us without our minds approval as to whether the definition is accuarte or not?
But the HS can also live in a lexicon. Maybe Thayer was inspired when he penned down all of those defenitions. Ok, or possesed by the devil. If God is everwhere in His creation then I wouldn't suprised He has hidden little gems all over the place. Could be in a secular archeology book. In a vision. In verse. Or in a lexicon
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...