Author Topic: Jude 7  (Read 284 times)

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Offline marie glen

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Jude 7
« on: March 05, 2015, 10:02:23 PM »
I find it very interesting that in the book of Jude, it says (speaking of very grievous false teachers) -

Jude 1:7, Amplified Bible (AMP)

"[The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns—which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity—are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual" (ageduring) "punishment [to warn] of everlasting" (ageduring) "fire."

Young's Literal says it like this - "an example, of fire age-during, justice* suffering." ["aionion"] Sodom and Gomorrah's fiery destruction openly displayed as the example of age-during fire.
-- *"justice" is from dike`/'dikee' "right" "i.e. justice, judgment, punishment, vengeance" - from Strong's
-----------------------

Talking about the "city harlot" (Rev 19:3) who corrupted the earth, it says -- Young's Literal Translation - "her smoke doth come up -- to the ages of the ages" - in 2 interlinear greek/english  lexicons i have, in both, the "ages" of the "ages", each of the two "ages/aionion" are slightly different from one another. It's the same for 14:11 -  :Chinscratch: ?

And Rev 14:11 says -- Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 "and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are? bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name."

Also interesting I think, considering what is said to be the rule that scripture reveals scripture, and often close by, a few words or verses further along.. Jude 14,15 says "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them..." (NKJ)

Revelation 14 of course is the two harvests - 1st resurrection and Har-megeddon - ("when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire.." (2 Thess 1:7,8 - NKJ)  or Young's Literal - "..the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power, in flaming fire..."


the smoke of destruction rising up unto the ages of the ages..?
Atonement = "kaphar ...reconcile (-liation)" / Day of Atonement, Israel's holiest day of the yr known as annual judgment day .."priests served a copy and shadow of things to come"
 ~ And I saw the dead, small & great, stand before God & books were opened... ..The wages of sin is death. ...Only on the tenth of this seventh month is a day of atonements; ye shall afflict your souls, whoever does not afflict/torment their soul shall be cut off.. an atonement for all the people of the assembly.. ..then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound ...on the Day of Atonement ~ doa 4 the doa

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 11:34:06 PM »
I think the "smoke of their torment", is really "the smoke of their punishment", which is the record, or monument, of God's judgment upon them, which will endure until the age of the ages, which in my opinion is the age after the lake of fire, after all the adversaries are subjected and death is abolished(no more smoke) and the whole creation is set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God and God has become all in all(no more ages).
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline sheila

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 01:06:05 AM »
God chooses differing judgements.  Sodom and Gomorrah where destroyed in one day when fire rained down from heaven..and when

  the next day Abraham looked down that way...he saw smoke rising like from a great furnance.

   when David numbered Israel..the Lord gave him a choice..fleeing before his enemy..plague..etc.  some of these things last

  longer.  The locust plague/famine and a slow death through starvation that lasted 5 months....the siege of Jerusalem with

 slow death starvation etc.......

  now,I ask you to consider the degrees exhibited in these judgements.  and also consider the level of sin committed by any man

 that lives approx. 70 years..versus an evil spirit that has lived and sinned for ages........

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2015, 10:53:23 AM »
Jude does not quote from an uninspired book imo. Jude, an apsotle, was quoting Enoch himself, or some other more reiable source available in his time. The book of Enoch could even have been originally on the level of scripture and then been corrupted over time until it was unfit for the cannon-there are many possibilities cincerning that, but Jude is definitely scripture, so one can rest assured that at least Jude's quote of Enoch is accurate and authoritative, the word of God.
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Offline marie glen

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2015, 11:17:49 PM »
I think the "smoke of their torment", is really "the smoke of their punishment", which is the record, or monument, of God's judgment upon them, which will endure until the age of the ages, which in my opinion is the age after the lake of fire, after all the adversaries are subjected and death is abolished(no more smoke) and the whole creation is set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God and God has become all in all(no more ages).

to me it seems to be saying the memory and lesson of the destruction/punishment/judgment will be rembered throughout the ages and eternity, a part of the unbreakable (iron rod) truth which God is writing on the hearts and minds of all "in heaven and earth".

I think both our perceptions could be accurate.. that God's word is often bigger, wider than we mortals realize..
Atonement = "kaphar ...reconcile (-liation)" / Day of Atonement, Israel's holiest day of the yr known as annual judgment day .."priests served a copy and shadow of things to come"
 ~ And I saw the dead, small & great, stand before God & books were opened... ..The wages of sin is death. ...Only on the tenth of this seventh month is a day of atonements; ye shall afflict your souls, whoever does not afflict/torment their soul shall be cut off.. an atonement for all the people of the assembly.. ..then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound ...on the Day of Atonement ~ doa 4 the doa

Offline marie glen

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2015, 11:42:34 PM »


  now,I ask you to consider the degrees exhibited in these judgements.  and also consider the level of sin committed by any man

 that lives approx. 70 years..versus an evil spirit that has lived and sinned for ages........

..that's very interesting! makes me notice how when satan is "cast into the LOF" before the great white throne judgment / judgment day, the verse says he will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (aion, age to age or age(s) during)

but at the end of judgment day, when it says those not written in the book of life (believing) are cast into the LOF it calls it doesn't mention torment..

more and more I find myself questioning why the unchosen by God - HE hardens whom HE will - should have to be put through anything any more stringent than what the chosen to come to faith in this life were put through? if it is God choice, why would this be? why do we assume judgment day will be of short instantaneous duration and no one can repent during it? I imagine myself being an unsaved one resurrected and experiencing judgment day.. not that I expect to be in that position, but if I was..what would be the scenario? awakened at resurrection and just cast into the LOF? I can't help thinking God's plan to be a bit fuller than that..

how long will it take to judge all human history and all lives.. sure God could do it instantaneous but why waste such a great opportunity to really hammer home the whole lesson of learning good from evil..? the idea of judgment day being a Great Day of Atonement (for the DOA), and only those still not "believing" at the conclusion of that day going to the LOF (Lev 23:29) to me, proves UR-That the Spring Holy Days prophesied the 1st advent and the 3 Fall Holy Days, the 3 peaks of the long 2nd advent; God's Great Plan of Salvation.

The ancient Holy Days as parable of God's Great Plan of Salvation..
Atonement = "kaphar ...reconcile (-liation)" / Day of Atonement, Israel's holiest day of the yr known as annual judgment day .."priests served a copy and shadow of things to come"
 ~ And I saw the dead, small & great, stand before God & books were opened... ..The wages of sin is death. ...Only on the tenth of this seventh month is a day of atonements; ye shall afflict your souls, whoever does not afflict/torment their soul shall be cut off.. an atonement for all the people of the assembly.. ..then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound ...on the Day of Atonement ~ doa 4 the doa

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2015, 01:27:42 AM »
I think the "smoke of their torment", is really "the smoke of their punishment", which is the record, or monument, of God's judgment upon them, which will endure until the age of the ages, which in my opinion is the age after the lake of fire, after all the adversaries are subjected and death is abolished(no more smoke) and the whole creation is set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God and God has become all in all(no more ages).

to me it seems to be saying the memory and lesson of the destruction/punishment/judgment will be rembered throughout the ages and eternity, a part of the unbreakable (iron rod) truth which God is writing on the hearts and minds of all "in heaven and earth".

I think both our perceptions could be accurate.. that God's word is often bigger, wider than we mortals realize..

I absolutely agree.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline joeteekay

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2015, 06:57:05 PM »

..that's very interesting! makes me notice how when satan is "cast into the LOF" before the great white throne judgment / judgment day, the verse says he will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (aion, age to age or age(s) during)

but at the end of judgment day, when it says those not written in the book of life (believing) are cast into the LOF it calls it doesn't mention torment..

more and more I find myself questioning why the unchosen by God - HE hardens whom HE will - should have to be put through anything any more stringent than what the chosen to come to faith in this life were put through? if it is God choice, why would this be? why do we assume judgment day will be of short instantaneous duration and no one can repent during it? I imagine myself being an unsaved one resurrected and experiencing judgment day.. not that I expect to be in that position, but if I was..what would be the scenario? awakened at resurrection and just cast into the LOF? I can't help thinking God's plan to be a bit fuller than that..

how long will it take to judge all human history and all lives.. sure God could do it instantaneous but why waste such a great opportunity to really hammer home the whole lesson of learning good from evil..? the idea of judgment day being a Great Day of Atonement (for the DOA), and only those still not "believing" at the conclusion of that day going to the LOF (Lev 23:29) to me, proves UR-That the Spring Holy Days prophesied the 1st advent and the 3 Fall Holy Days, the 3 peaks of the long 2nd advent; God's Great Plan of Salvation.

The ancient Holy Days as parable of God's Great Plan of Salvation..

Marie, you sure raise some great points. You say : more and more I find myself questioning why the unchosen by God should have to be put through anything any more stringent than what the chosen to come to faith in this life were put through?

I would say, we do not know if they who are in the WTJ will be put through anything any more stringent. I wonder what is the process of their repentance in the LoF?  Beaten with few strips or many stripes depending on the magnitude of their sins?  In the LoF what happens?  Is the power of God affecting their minds(spirit) in a way that they re-live their evil/wrong ways of their mortal life to truly see and understand what God is doing to finally deeply repent and cry to fully yield to the Greatness and mercy of the Goodness of God?  Here is a simple analogy. Just like we have dreams that seem so real that we some times wonder if they are real, but when we awake we know they are not. But they seem so real.

Also, maybe our fiery trial is just as difficult as those who come afterward.  Some of us in this life have more to repent of than others. Paul sure felt that way. But God has a standard measuring rod. Thank God for that. So precisely how God deals with those in the final resurrection to have them saved is not clear, at least to me.  But He will accomplish it.

You say: why do we assume judgment day will be of short instantaneous duration and no one can repent during it?

How long does it take? Who knows? I do not think that the assumption that judgment day will be of short duration is necessarily correct.  Just like conversion in this age for the chosen is a process taking a period of time. It is not instantaneous.  Our calling may be instantaneous but our walk in Christ takes a long time, a life time.  So too, IMO, the LoF experience leading to full repentance will likely be of some duration, not just a flick of a switch by God. What is the relevance of time in the LoF process? Who knows? I hope this post is not to disjointed and rambling.

Appreciate your post, Marie.  It raises additional questions I have grappled with and continue to grapple with.  Probably can't figure out a lot of this while we are in this physical tabernacle.

By the way -  how do you connect the "judgment day" to the DOA?
Are you equating the judgment day to the  White Throne Judgment, or do you consider them to be two separate events?
Do you see the LoF being a part of the WTJ? I do.

It is important for the elect to see the ancient Holy days of God which you mention as a pattern and shadow of God's plan of salvation.  It is through this understanding that the whole plan makes sense.
3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 02:07:58 AM »
IMO the scriptures say something different. For some it will not be any worse. For some it may be much worse.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

____

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

_____

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

____

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

____

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 02:20:58 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline marie glen

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Re: Jude 7
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 09:15:05 PM »


It is important for the elect to see the ancient Holy days of God which you mention as a pattern and shadow of God's plan of salvation.  It is through this understanding that the whole plan makes sense.

    :banana: :banana: :banana: amen!! yes!! and... proves (imo) UR..


Do you see the LoF being a part of the WTJ? I do.


    :Chinscratch: very interesting.. I never heard that idea before.. I think something a bit close to it, in that I feel Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" - as being an age in duration.. and as a review for all in heaven and earth of all earth's history, a hammering home of The Truth which is revealed/unveiled through this life of self rule and its collective utter collapse into dust and ashes..



By the way -  how do you connect the "judgment day" to the DOA?
Are you equating the judgment day to the  White Throne Judgment, or do you consider them to be two separate events?


I think judgment day is the WTJ.

It's my belief the ancient spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by the Lord's 1st advent.

Therefor I think the three ancient Fall Holy Days prophesy the three peaks of our Lord's long 2nd advent - - Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles.

And if the "10 days" between the first holy day (Trumpets) and the second Holy Day, represents the 1000 year millenium, then the "5 days" between the 2nd and 3rd Holy Days (Day of Atonement and Tabernacles when Christ hands over the Kingdom to the Father and He will now tabernacle with man) would represent 500 years. [Lev 23]

I believe the 2nd resurrection occurs "after the thousand years" (of Jesus' millenium) and I believe those of the 2nd resurrection arrive DOA - dead on arrival/"still in their sins".

And I believe Judgment Day/WTJ lasts 500 years, and is represented by that great national/collective Holy Day of repentance - Day of Atonement, another DOA. ..."and whomsoever will not afflict their soul on that day will be cast out" (Lev 23:29) - that is, I believe the WTJ will turn out to be the Great Day of (realizing and receiving) Atonement, for the majority of earth's people. (All those who were not part of "the elect", many not even having heard.)

I believe, logically, it seems to me, the LOF would come at the very end of that day (of the WTJ). That at the conclusion, it shall be "whosoever is not written in the Book of Life (BOL)" - whoseover does not believe - "will go to the LOF".

But if, the WTJ / review, lasts 500 years, it seems highly logical to me, after having been resurrected out of their graves and having lived through and witnessed a great day of the review of all earth and mankind's history, individual and collective, as to all that went wrong and how and why.. well, after all that, who's not going to "believe"?

I actually don't really believe any humans will go to the LOF, except perhaps some really, really hard cases? (but I don't even really believe that! God is able.)

The two of revelation 19 who are cast into the LOF at Jesus' return - the beast and the false prophet - I believe are human institutions active during 'last' days - the world empire (beast) and the false prophet/teacher/teaching (and great delusion which we have yet to see the fulness of?) which has turned western civilization on its ear and "went before" the beast (preparing the way - Satan's John the Baptist)..

That is to say I believe the false prophet is not a person, cast into the LOF the 2nd death, but is that theory of evolution as to origins.. which began as a man.. but is now the atheistic branch of science which has arrogantly declared there is no God/YHVH (man is god?/higher power?) which also does other modern miracles and wonders (performs miracles, case in point rev 13:13 i believe occurred in 1945, a modern 'marvel'). So during the age of the WTJ, no humans in the LOF... and if the lof was "created for the devil and his angels.. well, who can change God's will?

But it's a threat, which could happen, same as the threat of forever perishing - if not for "Christ crucified". To wander away from God, the natural result would be to perish - the wages of sin/imperfection is death.. God being both Life and Perfection, who does all things Most Perfectly..

How is does it prove UR?

The 500 years, the WTJ being (surprise!) the greatest Day of Mercy, all under His great mercy ..and because it's perfect.. the whole trouble is thinking ability. :laughing7:

Rationality is a Pandora's box because it includes being able to make choices (even if highly limited! thank goodness). For to choose anything in thought, word or deed which differs from what God chooses is to become imperfect the opposite of Life. Hence we need His commands to be written on our heart, mind and psyche. Deeply engraved...

By letting 'choice' run its course.. well.. when it all crashes into dust and ashes I guess God will be fully vindicated as being right about all things and only God can rule! Self rule is - every man (and angels) deciding good and evil - can never, ever, ever work... but simply results in a self destructive wisp of smoke...

That YHVH lets things run their natural course, yet directs it in such a way that is is an epic truth drama fully revealing/unveiling, and convincing of true from untrue.. and the ultimate truth of - "no YHVH? no Life/living" - but can only ever result in calamity followed by gone..

But by His wisdom and ability, none will be gone/lost.. but the two classes, the elect and nonelect is needed for the sake of the drama.. whoever heard of a story or movie with just one character? And even the angels which rebelled, i feel will be in the LOF for an age and an age.. One age being during the WTJ.. "ALL things in heaven and earth being gathered into Jesus"... Total and utter victory..
Atonement = "kaphar ...reconcile (-liation)" / Day of Atonement, Israel's holiest day of the yr known as annual judgment day .."priests served a copy and shadow of things to come"
 ~ And I saw the dead, small & great, stand before God & books were opened... ..The wages of sin is death. ...Only on the tenth of this seventh month is a day of atonements; ye shall afflict your souls, whoever does not afflict/torment their soul shall be cut off.. an atonement for all the people of the assembly.. ..then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound ...on the Day of Atonement ~ doa 4 the doa