No man enters heaven

[Molly]

We wonder why people "choose" to believe loved ones are in hell, and yet we ourselves "choose" to beleive we'll not go to heaven when we die.  We "choose" to believe that we'll be suspended in nothingness, that we'll "not" be with our beloved Father after passing through this vapor of life, but instead we'll be nonexistant until the ultimate plan of God is fully complete at which point we'll all once again be reinstated at the resurrection of these bodies of flesh as they become transformed into immortality.  We're kings and priests now, but when we die, we go back to nothingness . . .soul sleep . . . suspended state . .whatever tag you put on it . . .

I don't believe that.

[Nathan]

This then wouldn't apply to you . . .I was just speaking in general to those who do see it to be that way . . .

[CHB]

Yet at the same time, clearly, Scripture reveals that those who have come and gone on before us are currently surrounding us, encouraging us, rooting for us . . .watching and observing us . . .that just seems to blow all that other stuff out of the water.

Nathan, could you please give me some of these scriptures?  Hope you read my posts on this. If you have would you please give me your thoughts on some of the things I posted?

CHB

[Nathan]

Read Hebrews 11 and the very beginning of 12 . . .I'll go back and read up on what you've written and go from there.

[Nathan]

I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?

There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this.  One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought.  But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state?  For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm.  The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.

Throw me a bone here if ya would.

Nathan,

I have many questions on this. I think I ask them in another thread?

I am pretty sure before Christ was resurrected, no one went to heaven when they died. After he was resurrected, I don't know?  I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now.  Where Paul said, we would "PUT ON" our immortality, makes me wonder if we won't keep these bodies and they will be changed when we put on spirituality?

(1Cor. 15:36) says "thou fool, that which thou SOWEST IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE.  According to this, these bodies we have now will be resurrected.  (Verse 44) says It is sowna natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.  From these verses we know that these bodies will be resurrected.  Knowing this, why would our spirit return to God as an active spirit, one that reasons, understands, works, speaks, all all the things our physical bodies do now?   I know that it says that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". But is this spirit just the power of God's Spirit that energizes this body and when this body dies the spirit lies dormat until it is reunited with the body that is dead? Think of our spirit kind of like a tape, or recording, when it is taken out of the tape player all the information is still there but it doesn't work but when it is put back into the player it is active again, one doesn't work without the other one.

I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?

CHB

Just bringing this back to the front . . .

[Nathan]

Okay, the one thing that I think is the hardest thing to try to take in is that ONLY this realm is confined to the natural laws . . .TIME being one of them.  Time is measured and governed by the sun, moon and the earth's rotation, just to name a few . . .all of which are natural elements.  Our minds have no reference point with which we could relate to what it would be like to be without the confines of time.  From time, we have our conclusions of what heaven is or isn't.  There may be 11 - 13 dimensions, but there are only 2 dimensions.  One is natural, the other is spiritual.  The spiritual dimension is the atmosphere where God lives and breathes . . .again, I speak from position of perspective through my personal relationship and my faith.  I'm not basing any of this on facts because we're not talking about the tangible . . .different rules apply.

So . . right now, we operate in three dimensions, We are a SPIRIT that lives in tents of FLESH that manifests a SOUL.  To try to see where we go would also involve in trying to understand who we are . .what we are . . .because this "creative" part of my core being only manifests when my spiirt is in "a" body.  It's the oneness of God that we manifest.  Take away any one of those three componants, the other two can no longer co-exist.  Remove my spirit, my flesh dies immediatly.  Or, if you stop my heart . .if you kill my flesh, my spiirt leaves immediately. 

How about this . . .where does your shadow go when you turn the light off?  It's immediately there . . same exact form as it always is . . .but without light's illumination, the shadow doesn't exist.  I see my soul to be the same way . . .when I die, my "spirit' returns to the Father, my flesh returns to the earth and my soul stops manifesting . . .but when we enter into our resturrected bodies . . .of imortality . . like our shadow, our soul once again manifests . . .so "in that way" I would agree with the "soul sleep" concept . . .but not in the way it's been relayed in the past.

I believe I'm obviously still me after I die, I'm just not manifesting that part of me because the light in my flesh has been turned off.  But my spirit is still in existence . . .it's just in a different realm.

[Molly]

I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?

Because it is the spirit which quickens the body and a quickening spirit will be able to keep the body alive forever.

Because we are created to be body, soul, and spirit.

And, because Jesus did it first.


1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


"quickening" [spirit]

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): make alive, give life, quicken.

[Beloved Servant]

THREE GREAT FEASTS FOR THE CHURCH

http://latter-rain.com/escha/warnock.htm

[thinktank]

Then kindly get over insulting us while we enjoy a speculation about how our Father will furnish our heavenly Home, like the hopeful little children we are trying to be.

That statement alone is insulting..."while we enjoy the speculation" just what does that mean? "about how our Father will funish our heavenly home," let me see will that be early american, 1950s ranchette, or perhaps European. And this is quite unnerveing, "like the hopeful little children we are trying to be"...I wanted to say more but I must stop.
My friend I have read several of your posts and and I must say that you are beyond and above a statement like this. Perhaps my speech is harsh, but I weary at how the beloved grovel at the natural and carnal offerings, of easter bunny thinking, xmas... well just all of the "things" like a mansion or cabin in heaven with all the trimmings. Silly thinking.
As per instruction... IMO, I never did that before and I hope I will not have to do it again.

I guess you are right that it is silly thinking in a sense. Paul said no one can imagine the things of heaven.

But with me I value heaven and also I value my human earthly life.

Psalm 139:14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

Psalm 50:10
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Deuteronomy 26:11
Then you and the Levites and the foreigners residing among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household.


Joshua 23:15
But just as all the good things the LORD your God has promised you have come to you, so he will bring on you all the evil things he has threatened, until the LORD your God has destroyed you from this good land he has given you.


So I know from scripture that what the lord gives us is good. So if he gave me a computer console in heaven, even though you might find it simple and crude, God gave it and it would be good.


A prophet spoke this word

I spoke great truths, profound words that changed lives and continue to do so. But I also spoke to the children. I was simple, I was clear, and I didn't lose My appreciation of little things. I stopped to enjoy the flowers. I cooked for My disciples.
It's when you can't find joy in the everyday things of life that you become complicated and lose the human touch. You exchange depth of character for a labyrinth of complex thinking, a heart that is sensitive to the things of the spirit for mere head knowledge.
Simplicity is a gift. Everyone starts out with it, but as some people grow up they discount this gift because they associate it with ignorance, naiveté, immaturity, and a lack of sophistication. They prefer to weave a web of complexity to cover it. But did I not say that unless you have childlike simplicity to believe in the "impossible" and the unseen—Me, the One who died for you and rose to life again so you could have the wonderful but simple gift of eternal life—you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven? The gift of simplicity remains for those who have the humility and wisdom to value it and claim it as their own.
There is much to discover throughout life and even more in Heaven, but you will always find that the most profound truths, the greatest beauty, and the most outstanding wisdom are all expressed simply.

[CHB]

I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?

Because it is the spirit which quickens the body and a quickening spirit will be able to keep the body alive forever.

Because we are created to be body, soul, and spirit.

And, because Jesus did it first.


1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.[/i

Hi Molly, but why do we need the body that has returned to dust if our spirit is functioning just fine in heaven already? This is one thing that I can't seem to wrap my mind around.

One other thing. When Jesus was resurrected, so was his body. Yet, if our spirit returns to God, our body is left to rot and decay, or return to dust where it stays.

Just some things that are hard for me to accept, that is why I ask so many questions on this subject. I go back and forth on this. I just haven't seen enough evidence to prove that we go on to heaven when we die.

(Heb. 11:40) God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT. 

This verse tells me that no one had received the promises, {immortality}  at that time and Paul said they wouldn't "be made perfect without us"...or those Paul was talking to.  No one had been given immortality up to that time.  One thing I wonder about is, did this change after 70AD?  I don't see the scriptures that show that everyone goes to heaven now, lives two thousand years and then gets their spirit put back into the dust that they were originally in. If they lived without these human bodies for a thousand years why will they need them to be resurrected?  Just questions I have that I hope someone can give me a good answer to?

CHB

   

[Molly]

THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT. 

What is perfect?  Perfect is union with Jesus now.  But then, it will be an incorruptible body.

I wouldn't worry too much about the dust business.  He will not allow his holy one to see corruption. 

I could clone my body today from one cell.

Surely, this can't be too hard for God to do.

I just believe we are meant to live in immortal bodies.  But, we will not see death, so until then, should we lose this corruptible body, I believe we will remain alive in a spirit body [he has prepared a home for us] until the first resurrection.


For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


--2Cor 5:1

[micah7:9]

" It's the oneness of God that we manifest." (Nathan)

Amen

[CHB]

THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT. 

What is perfect?  Perfect is union with Jesus now.  But then, it will be an incorruptible body.

I wouldn't worry too much about the dust business.  He will not allow his holy one to see corruption. 

I could clone my body today from one cell.

Surely, this can't be too hard for God to do.

I just believe we are meant to live in immortal bodies.  But, we will not see death, so until then, should we lose this corruptible body, I believe we will remain alive in a spirit body [he has prepared a home for us] until the first resurrection.

If we are in a spiritual body what do you think happens to these earthly bodies? Will we be reunited with it at a later date?

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


--2Cor 5:1
[/quote]

Hi MOLLY,

I think what Hebrews 11:40 is saying is, No one had received Iimmortality up to the time Paul is saying this, because in verse 39 it says "and these all, having received a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE".

CHB

[Molly]

The promise is the first resurrection, CHB--imo.

They were living in tents waiting for a house built by God.

That will be the resurrected body--but, this will not happen until the fulfillment of the Gentiles.

God has gone to a lot of trouble to identify us down to the color of our last hair with a code so complicated that it would fill a library.

"If you unwrap all the DNA you have in all your cells, you could reach the moon 6000 times!
"

Why would he go to all that trouble, CHB, unless he intends to preserve my big brown eyes for eternity?

But, he is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.

Because of Jesus, we will not die.

[thinktank]

Why would he go to all that trouble, CHB, unless he intends to preserve my big brown eyes for eternity?

I'm falling for you Molly 

[Molly]

LOL.  Better wait for the resurrection TT when I'll be 16 again.

But, it's true, isn't it?  Why would he go to so much trouble to identify each one of us down to the last little detail if he is just going to throw it all away in so much dust?

God is amazing.

[thinktank]

The dead bones of Israel comes to mind. God paints new skin on them. Unless one wants to go skeletal? It might be the new "look".

 

[Nathan]

Kinda hard to read "into" all the embedded questions along with the comments.  Over all, I think we can agree to say that since Christ, there have been no more physical resurrections.  And for me, it's only when all three componants are in operation that we are actually completely perfected . . .spirit in a body causing the soul to manifest life.  For those who've died physically, they are spirits without bodies . . .incomplete beings.  The completion comes when the 7th Day is at rest and the 8th day has arrived.  We are just now entering into the 7th day . . .this world is just now experiencing the affects of the changing of the spiritual climate . . .again, that's why there are more and more Rob Bell's popping up, God is building up a church that is true and illuminating as opposed to the one man has built that is personalized-by-deceit and based on fear and intimidation. 

What we see happening in the natural is what God is doing in the spiritual . . .has done in the spiritual . . .natural disasters are said to be increasing . . .earthquakes . . .a shifting of foundations beneath the surface of what can be seen.  Hurricanes that are born over oceans . . .climactical change growing over spiritual waters and invading the land.  Tornadoes . . .results in clashing of atmospheric preassures . . .volcanoes fire from within pouring without . . .God is speaking on many levels to the earth, to our flesh, announcing change is coming to the world . . .the timetable he set into motion is coming to a close.  That's a "good" thing . . .

[WhiteWings]

I am pretty sure before Christ was resurrected, no one went to heaven when they died. After he was resurrected, I don't know?  I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now.

I have the same thoughts as you C.
In the OT we read about soul sleep. We can argue what exactly that is; but the word sleep seems to indicate it isn't the real deal.
It seemed to happen to men of God too. Samuel was asleep.

When Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper He sealed a wedding deal between Himself, Father and the bride (believers)
The next day He paid the "bridal prize" on the cross.
^YLTJohn 14
2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;

That preparing typically took 1-2 years. Time often has some twist in the Bible. A day is day or year or thousand year. So it's hard to say what exact time we are speaking about.
For OT people there was no room to go to, the bride wasn't paid for yet, in fact the father of the bride hasn't agreed yet. It takes only little imagination what would happen if couple (OT people) that wasn't even engaged were caught being with eachother. Also read that the house of the father (God) of the groom (Jesus) has many (bridal) rooms. Those rooms are in heaven. So for me it's sure OT are not in heaven.
Another hint is that souls are sleeping under the altar. I'm aware that verse isn't directly linked to marriage but again we see sleeping souls.
For me it's sure the first time people to enter heaven is during the rapture. I know the word rapture raises some hairs in the necks of many readers but I'm sure it brings across what I'm saying.
So CHB, figure out when the rapture takes place and you know when people go to heaven.

^YLTRev 6
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
11 and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed--even as they.

Note the altar is in heaven so technically the souls are in heaven too.
^YLTEccl 12
7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

Maybe that verse solves some problems. OT people are in heaven but they sleep. Samuel was there to when the witch of Endor called him. I imagine a perfected body has an endless amount of energy so doesn't need to rest at all.
There are lots of trumpets in Revelation but when a man was going to get his bride he sounded a rams horn (trumpet) in the middle of the night. Many brides to be sleep at night.... :-)

Where Paul said, we would "PUT ON" our immortality, makes me wonder if we won't keep these bodies and they will be changed when we put on spirituality?

Just guessing a bit... The bride saved money all her life to look good for the groom. That included 'skin care products' and of course a nice dress. Maybe that dress has a little label in the neck reading "immortality" :-)
I always wondered how I look in a pink dress with my size 12 hiking boots

[CHB]

Hi WhiteWings,

Good to see you, or read you I should say.    Thanks for your post. So much to think about, I certainly do not have it all figured out yet, may never get it all in this life time but it is fun trying to figure it all out.  Ho[e you stick around, have missed you!!!

CHB

[micah7:9]

WhiteWings, and me thinkin' you had left from our midst, Im sure glad to see me debatin' friend back at his post! Heres a gald your back friend.

[LordsDaughter]

I think the OP question gives rise to once again recognizing the contradictory nature of Bible scripture and how it can cause confusion on the issue of whether or not souls return to Heaven after they die.

Perhaps it's the same quandary that occurs when it is proposed through scripture that humans are born as sinners after being pure souls in Heaven. (Philipians 3:20 -  For our citizenship is in heaven...)

John 3:13  (NASB)

13 No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.


In my opinion when we are souls in Heaven after we die we return from whence we came. To accept, especially after Jesus death on the cross, that we are today born sinners and thus the fate of our souls rests in either sentence to hell or heaven, is to not only imply Jesus failed in his mission to earth, but is to say that God not only plays chess with himself as the omniscient architect of our destiny according to his plan, but that he is a sadist in the process of being all knowing in the course of play.

I think that's why it is not wise to garner one's faith in God from scripture. When the Bible is errant, contradictory and contains falsehoods, it can only be confusing to take those words of men as holy writ, when they propose to describe a supreme being that by that very nature would find it impossible to inspire an errant text as a message to the people his power would give birth to for all time.

[Molly]

We are not allowed to bash the Bible on this site, LD.  It's against the TOS.

Plus, it's annoying.

[LordsDaughter]

What I find annoying is to be accused of something for which there is no evidence. Your opinion is not proof of my intent.
I am not bashing the Bible. That was not nor would it ever be my intent.

I am entering this discussion, while citing scripture to make my point and reply to the OP.

[Molly]

Oh, excuse me then.  I must have misunderstood what you meant by "errant, contradictory, and falsehoods."  Maybe you could reword it for me so I could understand better.

I think that's why it is not wise to garner one's faith in God from scripture. When the Bible is errant, contradictory and contains falsehoods, it can only be confusing to take those words of men as holy writ, when they propose to describe a supreme being that by that very nature would find it impossible to inspire an errant text as a message to the people his power would give birth to for all time.