Author Topic: No man enters heaven  (Read 8716 times)

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Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2011, 12:29:30 AM »
God I believe once put it to me like this.

"Freewill" (yes, I must unfortunately use the dreaded word, but only for the sake of presenting the idea as I believe it was presented to me - not for debate, just for thinktank's thought)

"Freewill is not solely about the ability to choose between good and evil.  It is the ability to choose between every good choice. Evil restricts choice, because evil limits freedom, there is no freedom in evil.  When the choice to do evil has been Overcome; then mankind is free to do what ever they like.  Because nothing will be evil, and every choice will be good.  Perfect freedom."

The choice to be carnal is nothing more than a choice to go to prison.  It is not a choice in freedom, but a choice that restricts choice itself.

In the garden mankind had the choice between every good tree of the garden, and the only bad thing was a single tree, which was literally the choice to have the choice between Good and Evil.  When this has been overcome, there is nothing left but every good tree, especially the tree of life.  If that makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 12:38:59 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Miriam

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2011, 01:54:20 AM »
I like that, Lefein. I'll have to go away and think about it for a while.  :thanks:

Offline CHB

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2011, 02:47:47 AM »
Well, Lefein, you know what I think about the dreaded word, it doesn't exist. That is all I will say about it.

CHB

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2011, 02:52:24 AM »
Which is why I specifically directed it at Thinktank.  :thumbsup:
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2011, 03:10:13 AM »
Well, Lefein, you know what I think about the dreaded word, it doesn't exist. That is all I will say about it.

CHB

We are both universalists. That dreaded word is one my favourite words. I think a lot to do with might be because many here come from ET backgrounds and that word has been used for evil purposes. Shame that the doctrine brings, evil to such a beautyfull word.

Offline thinktank

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2011, 03:17:03 AM »
Which is why I specifically directed it at Thinktank.  :thumbsup:

Thank you for that word Lefein, it was a good word from God I believe, also helped me remember, when God said the same thing to me a few months ago, on this forum. I think that's one of the problems with revelation, at least in my experience, is that it's easy to forget the information, but it's good that God has his reminders there, to help, when needed or to just encourage in general and to witness and perhaps add and reveal additional info too.


Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2011, 03:32:21 AM »
 :boyheart:
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2011, 04:56:49 AM »
With those thoughts, you have no conception nor idea what "heaven" is. Needless to say, once one begins to say, tell or attempt to describe what "heaven" is with the word of mans imnagination, it is telling that that person has not one twit of knowledge of what the Word of God, the Bible speaks in words of what "heaven" is. And there in lies the weakness of the human, carnal soul, that is called man.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2011, 05:01:21 AM »
Micah, I just want to be sure - but are you calling us carnal for speculating about what our heavenly home will be like?  The tone of that sentence does not ring very kindly, and I'm hoping that I've read it wrong.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2011, 05:03:04 AM »
Yes
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2011, 05:03:27 AM »
Then kindly get over insulting us while we enjoy a speculation about how our Father will furnish our heavenly Home, like the hopeful little children we are trying to be.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline jabcat

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2011, 05:37:14 AM »
Let's do try to remember please;

Philippians 2:3
3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

 ‎"...in honor preferring one another.." Rm. 12:10

It takes a little extra effort sometimes (believe me, I know - sometimes it's very hard for me) but we can post without either insulting, or, bringing up  discouraged topics.  It can be done.  Thanks.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2011, 05:46:09 AM »
Then kindly get over insulting us while we enjoy a speculation about how our Father will furnish our heavenly Home, like the hopeful little children we are trying to be.

That statement alone is insulting..."while we enjoy the speculation" just what does that mean? "about how our Father will funish our heavenly home," let me see will that be early american, 1950s ranchette, or perhaps European. And this is quite unnerveing, "like the hopeful little children we are trying to be"...I wanted to say more but I must stop.
My friend I have read several of your posts and and I must say that you are beyond and above a statement like this. Perhaps my speech is harsh, but I weary at how the beloved grovel at the natural and carnal offerings, of easter bunny thinking, xmas... well just all of the "things" like a mansion or cabin in heaven with all the trimmings. Silly thinking.
As per instruction... IMO, I never did that before and I hope I will not have to do it again.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:54:08 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Pierac

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2011, 06:08:13 AM »
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?

There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this.  One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought.  But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state?  For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm.  The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.

Throw me a bone here if ya would.

The problem is that the spirit is not the same as the soul. The Soul does not immediately  return to God, but the Spirit does!   As Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Psalms 146:4 clearly teaches! (see below) Read Psalms  146:4  again, and note it does not teach his body returns to the earth but "he" or  his body perishes but "thoughts." 

(Ecc 12:7)  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rűaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;  In that very day his thoughts perish.

Other support verses are…

(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life

(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

(Psa 104:29)  You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.  30  You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to  most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier's Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).


Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away they die.
Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus' Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:  "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

If we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus' breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself,  at His death He teaches…
  (Luke 23:46)  And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."  Having said this, He breathed His last.  Read again what Jesus said…  Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul. An example that supports this is when  Mary at Jesus' tomb turned and saw Jesus.  She naturally got excited and Jesus told her…  John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.  Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection.  It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence.  As both Jesus' body and soul died and went to hades!

You now have your bone,
Paul


Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2011, 06:17:20 AM »
 :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2011, 06:22:30 AM »
Christ went to Sheol, not to Heaven, for three days.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2011, 06:30:31 AM »
Mat 12:40

(ASV)  for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (CLV) For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."

(KJV)  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


(Rotherham)  For, just as was Jonah in the belly of the sea-monster three days and three nights, so, will be the Son of Man, in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights.

(RYLT-NT)  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

(WNT)  For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS IN THE SEA-MONSTER'S BELLY, so will the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.

(YLT)  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Jesus went to the "heart of the earth."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2011, 06:47:20 AM »
Is that not the grave? Sheol? Where he preached to the prisoners, and brought forth his captives?

Acts 2:31 - perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen [Sheol/Hades], nor was His flesh acquainted with decay.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 06:55:47 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2011, 07:02:58 AM »
No. The Word does not read that he was in the grave-sheol-hades-the pit, it reads He was in the heart of the earth. He was in the HEART (thought feelings and mind)of the earth.... what we are made of He KNEW humanity for three days and three nights...Jona got free Jesus got free to do the work, to finsih the work. Jesus died and Christ arose. I am not clear on all of these workings, but I know that the storys of religious rethoric and theology that feeds the christian belief is pagan and as empty and without merit, as Pauls example of sounding brass.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2011, 08:05:36 AM »
Clearly it says he was in Sheol or Hades in Acts 2:31 which is drawn from a prophetic psalm about Christ.

Psalm 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.

Or in Hebrew

Ki la thozb nphsh'i l'sheol la ththn chsid'k l'rauth schchth

Or in Greek (from the Septuagint)

For you shall not abandon my soul in Hades nor shall you give your sacred one to see corruption.

ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδην οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν

Then there is this;

Act 2:27 For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen [Hades], Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay.

Act 2:27  ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν.

Drawn from Acts 2:22-28, which clearly speaks of Jesus being in the unseen, which is Hades - or Sheol.

Men! Israelites! Hear these words: Jesus, the Nazarene, a Man demonstrated to be from God for you by powerful deeds and miracles and signs, which God does through Him in the midst of you, according as you yourselves are aware - This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate, Whom God raises, loosing the pangs of death, forasmuch as it was not possible for Him to be held by it. For David is saying to Him, I saw the Lord before me continually, Seeing that He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken." Therefore gladdened was my heart, And exultant my tongue. Now, still my flesh also shall be tenting in expectation, For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." Thou makest known to me the paths of life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.

Jesus went for three days down into Hades, Sheol, the Grave.  This is what the scriptures say, and this is how the scriptures interpret the "Heart of the Earth" passage.  Your interpretation has some merit friend, but it is not the sole foundational Truth of the matter; because Christ entered into Hades, and that is what the scriptures say.

---

ᾅδην
ᾅδου

Haden
Hadou

Hades - The Grave, the unseen.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 08:08:55 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2011, 08:41:00 AM »
And what is our life in this form but death and decay? Jesus was in the earth, flesh, death, unseen. You think you are alive in this earth body? I think not, we are dead, even tho we breath the breath of life (Gen.2:7)
Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2011, 08:59:01 AM »
My body made of fallen dust is dead and dying - because it is my flesh.  But I, my being, is very much alive.  Or else Christ has failed miserably in worse ways than "Eternal Torment" ever enforced that he had.  If he cannot even make one of his very own children alive in him like he promised.

You seem to be stuck in a pre-cross mindset.  We are after the cross, and things have drastically changed; Christ said "It is finished" for a good reason, and it wasn't so we could have a fancy version of Judaism, or be stuck in Sheol.  It was to give us Life, to defeat Death, and to do it again, and again, and again until it is fully defeated at last when it is thrown into the lake of fire.

I am not an Adamite, I am a son of God through Christ - the last Adam.  I am a new creature, gifted with eternal life - and my resurrected body is a gift yet to come.  I am not my body, I am an image of God and one of his beloved living children.

In Christ, right now, this very second, I live.  And I live also a resurrection life, which will fully manifest itself in Perfection when my body follows suit with the resurrection that has occurred in my Inner man.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 09:03:13 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Nathan

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2011, 03:45:06 PM »
Guess I should respond to this somewhere beings I'm the one that started it . . .
For me, nothing we share of in spiritual matters is actually factual.  None of us have the full capability to even explain something as simple and popular as the subject of heaven because our minds . . .#1, can't comprehend it.  And #2, have never been there.  So let be begin by saying everything I share is not based on fact, proof or natural evidence.  But instead, it's all based on faith . . .as what most others base their viewpoints on as well.  Some may try to tell you their answers are factual because the took this or that directly from Scripture.  Yet what we read out of Scripturei, if it can be literally read, then it's literally natural words, which then leads to our natural minds "perceiving" and "interpreting" what the natural words are stating through which we come to our conclusions. 

And because we all have different backgrounds from each other, some be it thorugh different culture, others through different levels of knowledge, but all are nonetheless different, we will still come to different conclusions.  The key is to remain one with each other as we arrive at our different conclusions . . . only those walking in the spirit can actually accomplish this because the oneness is a spiritual experience that does manifest through our natural bodies, just as much as disunity also is an inward experience that manifests outwardly as well . . .that which defiles is not what we take in, but it's what we let out.  Because what we let out is the evidence of what we are in.

So . . having said that . . .by faith in my relationship with the Father TODAY . . .this is what I see.  You can take it or leave it and I won't be offended either way.  I started this thread out of a little frustration on the idea that even though most here embrace the fact (in faith)  that all will have the same final destination in the end, and we can't seem to understand why others choose to embrace the idea that their loved ones are in hell due to the fact that they didn't say the magic words when they were alive, yet we also find ourselves doing basically the same thing, in variation of what we scratch our heads about others doing. . . .crap . . .need to do another post again.

Offline Nathan

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2011, 04:00:27 PM »
We wonder why people "choose" to believe loved ones are in hell, and yet we ourselves "choose" to beleive we'll not go to heaven when we die.  We "choose" to believe that we'll be suspended in nothingness, that we'll "not" be with our beloved Father after passing through this vapor of life, but instead we'll be nonexistant until the ultimate plan of God is fully complete at which point we'll all once again be reinstated at the resurrection of these bodies of flesh as they become transformed into immortality.  We're kings and priests now, but when we die, we go back to nothingness . . .soul sleep . . . suspended state . .whatever tag you put on it . . .

Yet at the same time, clearly, Scripture reveals that those who have come and gone on before us are currently surrounding us, encouraging us, rooting for us . . .watching and observing us . . .that just seems to blow all that other stuff out of the water.