Author Topic: No man enters heaven  (Read 11050 times)

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Offline Nathan

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No man enters heaven
« on: March 11, 2011, 10:49:43 PM »
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?

There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this.  One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought.  But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state?  For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm.  The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.

Throw me a bone here if ya would.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 11:11:28 PM »
Our life is hidden away with (in) Christ - who is Life.  We are one with him here and now, and forever more, we are his body afterall.  When we leave our fleshly fallen tent, that fleshly fallen tent which acts as a barrier or veil between us and the Lord (unlike our glorified bodies which will be sinless, and not like the flesh with which we wrestle with now) will be no longer a barrier, and we will behold our Lord with a more wholesome clarity.  And we will be with him, and more aware of being with him in and as spirit than we were in beholding and experiencing him through the veil of our flesh.

I like to say this - "Where ever Christ is, Heaven is also"

We are seated in heavenly places, and we are alive - embodied or not, because Christ makes us alive, and did not fail in this by any means, we are alive here and now because we are indeed alive here and now drawing nourishment form the Divine-vine, as branches, in union with Life himself.

It is just that with the fall of the fallen, sinful, body into dust, yet another barrier between us and our Lord is extinguished - though it shall be raised again and made holy in the resurrection for what ever purpose or another.

This is what I believe (I do not believe in soul-sleep at all) because soul-sleep seems to me to say that we are not alive, but are infact pretending to be alive...Heaven is about being Alive and in the presence of God, before it is ever about clouds, harps, and halos.  Honestly, that's just a bonus, what ever it might be.

There is more to say about this subject, but I'd have to have some time to lay out a more detailed thesis on it.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline shawn

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 11:46:39 PM »
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?

There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this.  One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought.  But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state?  For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm.  The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.

Throw me a bone here if ya would.

I am opening up to new ideas of what heaven could be.  We live in flesh which can experience 3 of the 11 known dimensions of the universe.  What if death allows us to experience all 11, in the twinking of the eye?  We think with 3D minds, that is why our perspective is compromised from the start.  Something to ponder.

Offline shawn

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 11:48:54 PM »
I am opening up to new ideas of what heaven could be.  We live in flesh which can experience 3 (4 if you count time) of the 11 known dimensions of the universe.  What if death allows us to experience all 11, in the twinking of the eye?  We think with 3D minds, that is why our perspective is compromised from the start.  Something to ponder.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 04:02:51 AM by shawn »

Online micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2011, 04:53:10 AM »
Imagination. It is a fantastic word and it has a forming attitude in the mind of us...man....it takes hold of ones mind.

Joh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

the question is just what is it you believe and expect "heaven" to be. Is it a place of physical logistics? Just what is heaven to you? Is it a real place that is physical like Eden?

I repeat this verse of Jesus...Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

This is our living life, can we understand that what heaven is much greater and much stonger than our imagingation? I will say this, that most of what christianity has done to bring forth its religion and offered it to men who are very susceptible to the imagination of their minds and they can be played with(its a shame, but true) in there minds they are given to believe what ever religion offers for they do not care to find out who Jesus is, this life is more important, they do not see nor do they believe or care to understand that as Jesus said...
Luk 17:21  nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.' (or among you)
It is quite important in our walk t know that the "reign or kingdom on God is within(among) you, without that knowledge and believing we will not climb the mountain or walk through the valley. HE IS
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 05:23:15 AM »
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination.  We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition.  Is heaven in this universe?  Is it outside in a multiverse?  Is it anywhere that can be considered a place?  I have no idea.  It's fun to think about though.   :bigGrin:

Online micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 05:39:23 AM »
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination.  We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition.  Is heaven in this universe?  Is it outside in a multiverse?  Is it anywhere that can be considered a place?  I have no idea.  It's fun to think about though.   :bigGrin:

Is heaven in this universe? No.
Is it outside in a multiverse?  No.
Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? No.
Leaving it to mans imagination is what brought us to all the various imaginations as to what heaven is today. Heaven =is lofty, high up is there anything there that inspirers mans imagination to the conclusions man has today?

But it fun to think about though.... :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 06:05:44 AM »
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination.  We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition.  Is heaven in this universe?  Is it outside in a multiverse?  Is it anywhere that can be considered a place?  I have no idea.  It's fun to think about though.   :bigGrin:

Is heaven in this universe? No.
Is it outside in a multiverse?  No.
Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? No.
Leaving it to mans imagination is what brought us to all the various imaginations as to what heaven is today. Heaven =is lofty, high up is there anything there that inspirers mans imagination to the conclusions man has today?

But it fun to think about though.... :bigGrin:

Yes, it is indeed.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 06:35:39 AM by shawn »

Online micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 09:18:04 AM »
Yes in deed.... is that to mean..it is fun---- to think about? Should that be true, then why wonder at all, if its mans imagination that dominates the thoughts?  Yes in deed, Yes in deed.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 05:12:20 PM »
Yes in deed.... is that to mean..it is fun---- to think about? Should that be true, then why wonder at all, if its mans imagination that dominates the thoughts?  Yes in deed, Yes in deed.

I have tried to be pleasant and ignore the tone but I must ask.  What is your issue with someone wondering about heaven?  Why wonder, ponder or think about anything?  We are human beings, of course we are going to wonder about our heavenly home.  We ache for it, long for it, so why wouldn't we wonder about it as well?

Online micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2011, 07:17:14 AM »
What you wrote is just what I am speaking about. I like pleasant and I cherish pleasant speak, but I when it comes to "wondering" about a  "heaven" that mans religon teaches as a logistical "place." Shawn, just what do you consider "heaven" to be?
I believe and trust that it is a comfort, and peace where I walk in the spirit and know My Saviour is alive and working within...among. The kingdom of God/Heaven is within/among you....
Luk 17:21  nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.' (or among you)

I just weary of brothers and sisters who ponder and wonder about a Hollywood, storybook heaven. And I realize at times that my speach is at times abrasive, I am like that, forgive me or look over my short comings, somethings need work.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 07:38:22 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2011, 08:10:59 AM »
Heaven is more than a state of mind, or being.  But it is also not less than a tangible, experiential existence; a Home.

If Heaven shall be perfect, and everything that Heaven is to represent is our home, our place of citizenship - then like homeless children it is very much natural and wonderful for us to think about what it will be like to have a home.  Especially if it shall be perfect, then why should it not be the stuff of faerie tales, and storybooks - in the truest sense of what faerie tales and storybooks try to say?

"And they all lived happily ever after - forever and ever"

You say "man's religion" teaches it as a logistical place, and why not?  Why not hope for an actual paradise worth calling paradise that we can enjoy in a literal sense as well as every other sense with our literally resurrected Lord? 

I very much dislike the idea of a "Christian brand" of Nirvana.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 08:23:59 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Online micah7:9

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2011, 09:00:57 AM »
I do not understand, "I very much dislike the idea of a "Christian brand" of Nirvana." Lefein. If you are saying that perhaps it is a good thing to have visions of a "Nirvana" (what ever that is) rather than having a knowlledge of what "I Am,"  IS in the life of a vessel who believes in his Creator beyond the rituals of Americas churchs, then I say take your dreams a visions that are told over the pulpit as, truth, the let it be truth.....THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE.....Joh 8:32  and the truth shall make you free.'
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 09:16:11 AM »
A Christian brand of Nirvana, would be in essence "Heaven is just a happy state of mind" - this is a gross idea to me.

"Heaven" involves a happy state of mind.  But it does not end there, a literal Home in which to literally live in every sense of the word and implication is included too.

If Heaven is nothing more than me, floating about rather uselessly in stagnant bliss more akin to the bliss that comes of ignorance, or if Heaven is nothing more than me floating in some sort of stagnant "universal bliss-conscience/mind" --- rather than true and actual perfection in which I may interact non-statically with a magnificent New Creation perfect and lovely, in every spectrum whether material or spiritual; then I think we would be quite an impoverished Humanity, and worse so - God would be robbed of the enjoyment of the rest of His Creation; birds, trees, grass, rocks, flowers, water, stars, light...etc.  And He would be robbed also of the enjoyment of his children in their toys, their rooms, their yards, their inheritance, as well as His.

Being fully (with not even a hint of fallen separation) with the I AM, and being with God makes everything Heavenly - but God has not had it in his designs for mankind to merely float in static bliss, or for their bliss to exist "merely in their mind".  He has a Creation for his Created, a literal place as much as it is a literally happy state of mind.

"Heaven" is not just in our heads, dear friend..."Heaven" does not just reside in our hearts, and stop there.  "Heaven" is in our hearts, indeed; but we'll find ourselves literally standing in it and literally enjoying it soon enough.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 09:30:00 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline shawn

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2011, 11:07:07 AM »
A Christian brand of Nirvana, would be in essence "Heaven is just a happy state of mind" - this is a gross idea to me.

"Heaven" involves a happy state of mind.  But it does not end there, a literal Home in which to literally live in every sense of the word and implication is included too.

If Heaven is nothing more than me, floating about rather uselessly in stagnant bliss more akin to the bliss that comes of ignorance, or if Heaven is nothing more than me floating in some sort of stagnant "universal bliss-conscience/mind" --- rather than true and actual perfection in which I may interact non-statically with a magnificent New Creation perfect and lovely, in every spectrum whether material or spiritual; then I think we would be quite an impoverished Humanity, and worse so - God would be robbed of the enjoyment of the rest of His Creation; birds, trees, grass, rocks, flowers, water, stars, light...etc.  And He would be robbed also of the enjoyment of his children in their toys, their rooms, their yards, their inheritance, as well as His.

Being fully (with not even a hint of fallen separation) with the I AM, and being with God makes everything Heavenly - but God has not had it in his designs for mankind to merely float in static bliss, or for their bliss to exist "merely in their mind".  He has a Creation for his Created, a literal place as much as it is a literally happy state of mind.

"Heaven" is not just in our heads, dear friend..."Heaven" does not just reside in our hearts, and stop there.  "Heaven" is in our hearts, indeed; but we'll find ourselves literally standing in it and literally enjoying it soon enough.

Agreed.  Good post.

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2011, 03:04:25 PM »
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?

There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this.  One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought.  But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state?  For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm.  The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.

Throw me a bone here if ya would.
Are you referring to those who believe in soul sleep? Personally I don't. I believe that at the instant I die, I will go to be with Christ.

Offline CHB

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2011, 07:34:48 PM »
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?

There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this.  One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought.  But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state?  For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm.  The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.

Throw me a bone here if ya would.

Nathan,

I have many questions on this. I think I ask them in another thread?

I am pretty sure before Christ was resurrected, no one went to heaven when they died. After he was resurrected, I don't know?  I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now.  Where Paul said, we would "PUT ON" our immortality, makes me wonder if we won't keep these bodies and they will be changed when we put on spirituality?

(1Cor. 15:36) says "thou fool, that which thou SOWEST IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE.  According to this, these bodies we have now will be resurrected.  (Verse 44) says It is sowna natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.  From these verses we know that these bodies will be resurrected.  Knowing this, why would our spirit return to God as an active spirit, one that reasons, understands, works, speaks, all all the things our physical bodies do now?   I know that it says that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". But is this spirit just the power of God's Spirit that energizes this body and when this body dies the spirit lies dormat until it is reunited with the body that is dead? Think of our spirit kind of like a tape, or recording, when it is taken out of the tape player all the information is still there but it doesn't work but when it is put back into the player it is active again, one doesn't work without the other one.

I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?

CHB

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2011, 08:39:10 PM »
Quote
I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now.

What about the verses that state that we are basically already with him?  It wouldn't be a matter of "going to him" more than "stepping further into where we already are" - our sinful flesh being left behind to rot in the dust until it is resurrected anew and clean and glorified.

For example;

(Eph 2:5-6)

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We are in Christ, we are his body, and he is in us - we are alive, and have eternal life because our life is Christ's life, the life of Life himself.  Our life is dependent on Christ who is alive forever more - Life himself, not on our bodies, or whether or not we are in them.  Our bodies are to serve us, not the other way around. (Loosely speaking; just as in the same way, we as Christ's body are meant to serve him)

Our existence as the image of God is in our spirit.  Our bodies are not the "centre" of our theotic "image-ness".  I do not deny that our bodies are part of that image, but our image is not dependent on our body to retain that image, because God's "image from which we are reflected" (to put it poetically) does not specifically demand a body.  The Word became flesh, it did not exist always as flesh.  God is Spirit, and so are we.

In putting on immortality, it refers to a change of clothes.  From dirty dusty rags of sinful fallen; perishable dust --- to clean glory of resurrected majesty; imperishable wonder.

Quote
But is this spirit just the power of God's Spirit that energizes this body and when this body dies the spirit lies dormat until it is reunited with the body that is dead? Think of our spirit kind of like a tape, or recording, when it is taken out of the tape player all the information is still there but it doesn't work but when it is put back into the player it is active again, one doesn't work without the other one.

Our spirit is far more than mere animating fuel.  Our spirit is the very breath of God himself, our Life's-being.  God is Life, and God is sentient, conscious, a living being --- and God is Spirit, so our spirit is also a piece of God, a unique expression of Life and the life of an infinitely significant unique individual.  It is not mere activating energy...Forgive my harshness, but to call it so is to slight God who is himself Spirit. 

As for tape player, He does not need a body to function, neither do we.  Our bodies serve more than a utilitarian purpose, and so its purpose is not strictly utilitarian.  God is not a utilitarian God of Machines, he is the God of the living.

Quote
I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?

We are not put back into dead bodies.  We are put back into resurrected, glorified living ones (which Paul compares to a fully grown tree), which are far superior to our fallen ones (which Paul compares to a seed).  You cannot have a tree without the seed dying and being resurrected as a tree - and a seed compared to a tree, is quite a high leap of majesty.  And from the perspective of a seed it is awfully hard to comprehend what it is like to be a tree.

However, we are not beings who were invented for "utilitarian purposes" - that is to say, we are not God's divine little machines.  We are his children, his people.  Going from an active spirit with God to being embodied again is no terrible fall; our life is in our spirit, because Life is Spirit - but our resurrected bodies are as much a gift as life itself - and being a gift it is not a thing of mere utility but blessed favour; and also because it is a gift, it is not a curse or a fall from height, merely because we went from being spirit to being embodied spirits, neither does that mean that the body somehow has a strictly utilitarian necessity, God is far better than that.  Our body is a gift to be enjoyed, as well as used.  But just because the body is a thing we can use - does not make the body a necessity in being with our Lord, neither does it make the body a necessity in us "existing" because our "existence" is a thing maintained, given, and centered in Christ who is Life - not our flesh or the state of it (glorified or not).

In essence; Christ is The Source, not Flesh.



« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 08:48:20 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline CHB

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2011, 09:59:44 PM »
Lefein,

I think you kind of misunderstood some of what I said or I didn't explain myself well.

First off (Eph 5-6) is speaking spiritually. We spiritually are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ, I do not deny that. We are not literally there yet.

Quote from: Lefein

Our existence as the image of God is in our spirit.  Our bodies are not the "centre" of our theotic "image-ness".  I do not deny that our bodies are part of that image, but our image is not dependent on our body to retain that image, because God's "image from which we are reflected" (to put it poetically) does not specifically demand a body.  The Word became flesh, it did not exist always as flesh.  God is Spirit, and so are we.

From what do you base this on? How do you know that our spirit doesn't demand a body or vice versa? What if God designed it that way?

Quote from: Lefein

In putting on immortality, it refers to a change of clothes.  From dirty dusty rags of sinful fallen; perishable dust --- to clean glory of resurrected majesty; imperishable wonder.

The way I understand this is, it is like putting on a coat over this changed body. I think we are saying the same thing here.

Quote from: Lefein
Our spirit is far more than mere animating fuel.  Our spirit is the very breath of God himself, our Life's-being.  God is Life, and God is sentient, conscious, a living being --- and God is Spirit, so our spirit is also a piece of God, a unique expression of Life and the life of an infinitely significant unique individual.  It is not mere activating energy...Forgive my harshness, but to call it so is to slight God who is himself Spirit. 

As for tape player, He does not need a body to function, neither do we.  Our bodies serve more than a utilitarian purpose, and so its purpose is not strictly utilitarian.  God is not a utilitarian God of Machines, he is the God of the living.

I don't deny most of what you say above but that doesn't prove or disprove that we will be an active spirit that goes on to be with God at our death.

Quote from: Lefein
We are not put back into dead bodies.  We are put back into resurrected, glorified living ones (which Paul compares to a fully grown tree), which are far superior to our fallen ones (which Paul compares to a seed).  You cannot have a tree without the seed dying and being resurrected as a tree - and a seed compared to a tree, is quite a high leap of majesty.  And from the perspective of a seed it is awfully hard to comprehend what it is like to be a tree.

Here is where I see the problem. Why do we even need these dead human bodies if we are already with God and are a functional, living, active, spirit? Doesn't make any sense.

In the OT there are too many scriptures that show that they didn't go on to heaven to be with God when they died.  Scriptures that say, "the dead know no anything".  "Dead praise not the Lord". David said "in death there is no remembrence of thee". (Job 12:2) "wisdom die with you". (Job 14:14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.  Has that changed?

CHB

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2011, 10:18:38 PM »
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We are not literally there yet.

Of course not, most of us aren't dead yet.  Unless I'm a zombie...lol

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From what do you base this on? How do you know that our spirit doesn't demand a body or vice versa? What if God designed it that way?

Common sense mostly.

God is Spirit - Didn't come in the flesh, or a human body until Jesus (for Trinitarians) - we are made in God's image.

If the image of God is not the body, it is most likely something to do with the spirit - or of a spiritual nature.

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I don't deny most of what you say above but that doesn't prove or disprove that we will be an active spirit that goes on to be with God at our death.

Perhaps not, but it is another variable to consider in the problem. :)

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Here is where I see the problem. Why do we even need these dead human bodies if we are already with God and are a functional, living, active, spirit? Doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make sense because you're thinking in a utilitarian view.

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In the OT there are too many scriptures that show that they didn't go on to heaven to be with God when they died.
 

Death, Sheol, separation from God, and otherwise prevented that.

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Scriptures that say, "the dead know no anything".  "Dead praise not the Lord". David said "in death there is no remembrence of thee". (Job 12:2) "wisdom die with you". (Job 14:14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
 

These are not the full picture of our post-mortem state.  It is more complicated than I can really present properly.  But sufficed to say, the soul does not remain with the body, neither does the spirit.  It must therefore go somewhere else, and comes back to the body - which makes the body live.  The body does not make the soul or spirit live.  Because the spirit is the breath of Life, being quite literally the breath of God.

1Kings 17:22  And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Luke 8:53-55 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

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Has that changed?

A great many things changed after the cross.  I wouldn't be surprised if the afterlife for a human being did too.

"Death <---cross---> Life"
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline CHB

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2011, 10:35:22 PM »
In the OT there are too many scriptures that show that they didn't go on to heaven to be with God when they died.
 
Quote from: Lefein
Death, Sheol, separation from God, and otherwise prevented that.

But weren't those back in the OT made from God's image as well and didn't they also have the same spirit of God that we have today?

I really think there are things we are not understanding about this whole subject.  I desire to understand it but so far haven't had answers to my questions that gave me satisfaction. I am not talking about your answers but all that I have read about this subject.

Where it states that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "breath".

Ok, we have the breath of God which is the life in man.  When man dies this breath or part of God's life, returns to him. By the way, I think the breath/spirit that gives life to man is different from man's spirit.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 10:39:17 PM by CHB »

Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2011, 11:56:15 PM »
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But weren't those back in the OT made from God's image as well and didn't they also have the same spirit of God that we have today?

I really think there are things we are not understanding about this whole subject.  I desire to understand it but so far haven't had answers to my questions that gave me satisfaction. I am not talking about your answers but all that I have read about this subject.

God is omnipresent - even in Sheol.  But the Dead under the Law of Death were not in the state of Life, which is Heavenly.  That came after the cross, and was a great part of Christ's purpose; "Free us from Death unto Life".  :thumbsup:

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Where it states that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "breath".

Ok, we have the breath of God which is the life in man.  When man dies this breath or part of God's life, returns to him. By the way, I think the breath/spirit that gives life to man is different from man's spirit.

I don't see why they should be all that different in their root ideas, according to my understanding anyway.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2011, 12:07:08 AM »
Hopefully heaven caters computer game players and cream cake lovers!

Perhaps hard core sports in heaven is Russian roulette  :happy3:  I won't be playing though.


Offline Lefein

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2011, 12:09:54 AM »
I could go for some MMORPG and twinkies with Jesus.  That'd be pretty fun!

But don't let the hard core fundamentalists find out that you think this...They'd consider you a part of the "emergent" church, and that's just ever so terrible a heresy - nigh as damnable as universali...oh...wait...
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: No man enters heaven
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2011, 12:25:22 AM »
To some it sounds carnal. Perhaps it is humanly, more than heavenly desires, but I would not call it carnal, if there is cream cakes in heaven I would not be eating them as some kind of carnal greedy pig, those type of carnal desires I doubt will exist in heaven, in the presence of Jesus, but an intersting question I often find myself asking is "would we have the freedom to be carnal in heaven?" But if we do then, it would be the same place on earth, but would Jesus have a zero tolerance policy in heaven? Perhaps we would have to go back to earth if we become carnal again.