Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 47107 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #175 on: June 25, 2010, 05:43:13 AM »
wonderful.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #176 on: June 25, 2010, 07:09:36 PM »
God will was that Sodom be saved

But mans will to sin made that city destroyed, for God only desired one single righteous person to save it. See that GOD DESIRED, but man did not take heed and choose sin, therefore destruction


Likewise God Desired for Nineveh to be saved, but the people in Nineveh actually listened and repented and God in his mercy did not destroy Nineveh because of mans repentance. For even greater proof, man decides to sin later in Nineveh and God destroys Nineveh.


Religious leaders are allways saying God is in control etc. But God is in control the same way, that a parent is in conrol of wayward children, there is only so much control. The child is the one that decides, chooses his own fate, the parent wants the child to become a doctor, but the child wants to be a fireman, will the parent win?

The child chooses to scream, to be quiet, to walk, to talk, to move his left hand and his right hand, God can only influence us, not that he cannot control us, but that is not in his nature.

You see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.

That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions. He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.

How many times have prophecies failed?

People get prophecies that they are going to get a promotion in work, but the prophecy was dependant on that person working hard and diligent and also seeking God. So the person works hard and diligent and does not get the job, they then think that the person who did the prophecy is a false prophet, but the reality was that the person failed in his task to seek God and missed out on a vital element.

God says Choose this day whom you will serve?

Willie, it is GODS will for man to be enjoying ourself and to be in good health and to seek him, but yet how many people do that?
If God writes everything in histroy then how can you answer a person who asks why did that earthquake happened?

Judas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.

Maybe you are correct about God needing someone like Judas to fullfill scripture, but that doesn't mean that what I say is not true, both can be correct. For Jesus said

Woe to that man that betray me (which supports my idea) but nevertheless, scripture must be fullfilled (which supports your idea)

You said that my idea of Judas not wanting to live is just my imagination, you are correct and I did say that it is just a possibility, however when it comes to Judas being the betrayer I belive that God forknew in his eternal wisdom all the potential people that could have betrayed Jesus, and knew that Judas could be one of them.

In fact I liken God to one of those books that has an alternative ending, where God knows each and every ending, but we as people choose which path we go upon. I think that people have destinies, but the path to those destinies is varied and sometimes the destiny is shunned altogether and man goes his own way.

Maybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.

Hail, king Jesus, all hail the king

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #177 on: June 25, 2010, 07:32:40 PM »
Judas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.
30 pieces the price of a slave/servant. Why not 31 pieces? Or even a 100? The priest wanted to get rid of Jesus very badly. I'm sure they could afford 31 pieces. Why is the number of pieces mentioned? Does it have  deeper meaning....?

Quote
Maybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.
NETPro 16:9 A person plans his course, but the LORD directs his steps.

Maybe we are just rats in a maze. There is only one exit. The rat can go any way he wants but obviously the rat's choices are limited by the walls of the maze.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #178 on: June 25, 2010, 11:50:41 PM »
willieH: Hi thinktank... :hithere:

Thanks for answering... :boogie:

Please don't recieve this as a "reprimand"... rather it is intended to be a edification...

One thing which I IMMEDIATELY have noticed is that this answer of yours is BARREN of Scripture... Indeed if we are discussing Scriptural premises, then those Scriptures should be REFERENCED as the basis for our discussion... and if an observation of them is found to be variant between us, then we have already proposed the reference for the other to RECONSIDER...  :happygrin:  

God will was that Sodom be saved

But mans will to sin made that city destroyed, for God only desired one single righteous person to save it. See that GOD DESIRED, but man did not take heed and choose sin, therefore destruction

Man DID "choose" destruction, but that was already upon the AGENDA of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS which are DONE according to the WILL and COUNSEL of YHVH -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Eph 1:11

I beg to differ for the following Scriptural reason:

I do not believe --- "God's will was that Sodom be saved"...

Matt 11:23  --- and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.

This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided NOT to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He WITHHELD those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".

Although I can add to that (that which has already been proposed by me), ...that ALL THINGS are DONE according to the WILL of YHVH God -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 46:10

Also Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24 -- ALL CONCUR that GOD DIRECTS the steps of MEN... Men percieve "choices", but the STEP they "actually take" is DIRECTED by GOD...

In these 3 verses there is no indication in ANY of these verses, that only the "STEPS of Righteousness" are "DIRECTED", rather it GENERALIZES and GROUPS all "STEPS" of MEN, together.

Rom 9:21 -- notes GOD MAKING both "honorable" and "dishonorable" vessels... (the vessels are not "making themselves")... of the SAME LUMP.

Most "browse" the Scriptures instead of truly, with an open heart, ...STUDY them, ...taking "religious tidbits" with them in that "browsing" and involving those "tidbits" in their observations and conclusions.

The "browser" will read -- Eph 1:11 -- and insert the "religious tidbit" -- EXCEPT -- this or that...

The "browser" will read -- John 1:3 -- and disinclude EVIL things.

The "browser" will read -- Col 1:20 -- and yet think that there are things OUTSIDE of this description... and are NOT reconciled...

The "browser" will read -- Col 1:16 -- and claim that EVIL is NOT of God, and that anything associated with "EVIL" is a problem "created" by "satan" in conjunction with "men"... and that GOD had nothing to do with it... :mnah:

Likewise God Desired for Nineveh to be saved, but the people in Nineveh actually listened and repented and God in his mercy did not destroy Nineveh because of mans repentance. For even greater proof, man decides to sin later in Nineveh and God destroys Nineveh.

Again, this is a view which does not take into consideration OTHER Scripture... for this is SAID in Scripture of REPENTENCE:

Rom 2:4 --- or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, ...NOT KNOWING... that the ...GOODNESS of GOD -- LEADETH THEE to ...REPENTENCE

Repentence is not a "choice" man makes of his own volition.  Indeed it is the opposite. For in order for "repentence" to take place... one must FIRST be DRAGGED to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- then the WORD either opens revelation to the one "dragged", which leads to "repentence" or it does NOT, of its DECISIVE and DIRECTIVE power -- Matt 11:27

Religious leaders are allways saying God is in control etc. But God is in control the same way, that a parent is in conrol of wayward children, there is only so much control. The child is the one that decides, chooses his own fate, the parent wants the child to become a doctor, but the child wants to be a fireman, will the parent win?

This is reducing God to the level of MAN, thinktank... His WAYS and THOUGHTS are FAR ABOVE ours...

"Religious leaders" are exactly that... leaders of RELIGION... and the RELIGIOUS... GOD IS IN CONTROL... if He is NOT, then we are all in eternally deep ...poo-poo!  :laughing7:

ALL THINGS are manifest of GOD... for HE is the maker of ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and the consistence of these things, be they GOOD or EVIL is still within Him -- Col 1:20 -- Acts 17:28...  The "religious leaders" speak DOUBLE TALK... stating GOD to be IN CONTROL... then naming EXCEPTIONS.  

Either He is IN CONTROL of ALL things as the Scripture states -- Rom 9:16-19 -- or He has let things be "IN CONTROL" of THEMSELVES... which then opens the can of worms... that these things, in their FINITE state ARE NOW HELD ACCOUNTIBLE for ETERNAL matters and/or ETERNAL standards...  

For it was the decision of the MAKER of them, to "let them" go their own "way"... which "decision" once again, STILL lays at the foot of the MAKER.

EXAMPLE --- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister...  It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID.

EXAMPLE -- Please dont get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:

GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...

The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --

  • (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
  • (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
  • (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION...

The child chooses to scream, to be quiet, to walk, to talk, to move his left hand and his right hand, God can only influence us, not that he cannot control us, but that is not in his nature.

You cannot prove ANY of this... please show Scriptural support for:

  • (1) that HE is NOT in CONTROL of ALL THINGS -- [He is the maker of them, and they are made as they are as a matter of HIS WILL -- Rom 9:19 -- having MERCY upon them or NOT according to HIS WILL, not ours]
  • (2) that HE "cannot" CONTROL us because "that is not in His NATURE" -- [Rom 11:32 -- God has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- whatsoever is NOT of faith (unbelief) is SIN, therefore GOD decided ALL to be SINNERS of His decision -- Rom 14:23 -- Heb 11:6 -- so HE has placed us all in a position where we CANNOT PLEASE Him... of HIS WILL, not ours.)
  • (3) that HE only "influences" us... [I have already shown that MAN is UNABLE to "understand" -- HIS OWN WAY -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24]
You see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.

That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions. He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.

You have established GOD --  as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of KNOWING... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...

What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? -- Nah 1:9 --  Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? -- Rev 21:4

In saying this, you demote ALMIGHTY as a title of YHVH... for you have stated that there are things "HE DOES NOT KNOW"... How can He BE "almighty" and the "might" of "knowing certain things", be apart from Him?

Then you say this:

How many times have prophecies failed?

People get prophecies that they are going to get a promotion in work, but the prophecy was dependant on that person working hard and diligent and also seeking God. So the person works hard and diligent and does not get the job, they then think that the person who did the prophecy is a false prophet, but the reality was that the person failed in his task to seek God and missed out on a vital element.

You make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this?  :mnah:

Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD -- Jer 29:9

God does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...

He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...

If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...  

GOD is not concerned with you winning the lotto... You shall only "win it" if it is PART of HIS PLAN for ALL... and that "winning" brings about the FULFILLMENT of His plan for ALL in its particular and predesigned, way.

God says Choose this day whom you will serve?

No man can "walk" in the pathway of RIGHTEOUSNESS unless he/she is ordained to do so -- Eph 2:10 -- Jer 10:23 -- Until GOD calls us OUT of DARKNESS (in which HE put us -- Rom 11:23)... then we shall continue to LOVE the (faithless) DARKNESS and gravitate TO ITS proposals...

Willie, it is GODS will for man to be enjoying ourself and to be in good health and to seek him, but yet how many people do that?

If God writes everything in histroy then how can you answer a person who asks why did that earthquake happened?

Judas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.

These do not establish your arguement, it only questions your own "answers", thinktank.

Why did he betray him for only 30 pieces of silver, thinktank?  

It is YOU which need and answer for this question for THAT is the crux of your "vision" of the betrayal...  :dontknow:

The betrayal was NOT about money, nor about JUDAS, nor was any mythical character RELIGION has invented called "satan" involved...  It was about the FULFILLING of the PROPHECIES which made of CHRIST by YHVH God... and COMPLETING the RECONCILIATION of MAN to GOD...

JUDAS was the NECESSARY ONE (for IN FACT, not imagination he WAS the ONE) USED by GOD, in order that the FULFILLMENT of the prophesied SACRIFICE of CHRIST, be made...

Maybe you are correct about God needing someone like Judas to fullfill scripture, but that doesn't mean that what I say is not true, both can be correct. For Jesus said

Woe to that man that betray me (which supports my idea) but nevertheless, scripture must be fullfilled (which supports your idea)

MAYBE?  Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank!  :dontknow:

Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed CHRIST, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.

My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed CHRIST and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the FULFILLMENT of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.

You said that my idea of Judas not wanting to live is just my imagination, you are correct and I did say that it is just a possibility, however when it comes to Judas being the betrayer I belive that God forknew in his eternal wisdom all the potential people that could have betrayed Jesus, and knew that Judas could be one of them.

This is self decieving.  

How is it that God's "foreknowledge" can KNOW all the potential persons, but NOT the one who actually BETRAYED?  Does God need some new "glasses"?

You make GOD one which is "sort of" ALMIGHTY and "sort of" KNOWLEDGEABLE, but because of only being "SORT of these things" -- His FOREKNOWLEDGE was INCOMPLETE and WITHOUT the ABOLUTE information that JUDAS would be the ONE which actually BETRAYED... guessing, like at the horse track, the culmination of the most IMPORTANT [bar none] event in HISTORY.  AND, that this IMPERFECT and INCOMPLETE "foreknowledge" --- "could've" eluded God's best "guess"!

I cannot :rolleye: more at this thinking... And if you indeed are correct... then ALL scenarios which are projected in ETERNITY are made of the same potentially FALLIBLE guesses...  :thumbdown:

In fact I liken God to one of those books that has an alternative ending, where God knows each and every ending, but we as people choose which path we go upon. I think that people have destinies, but the path to those destinies is varied and sometimes the destiny is shunned altogether and man goes his own way.

You are welcome to "liken" anything you wish... that does not mean that your "likening" is valid, nor contains truth.  TRUTH (thank God) must be based upon what IS WRITTEN in HIS WORD... not upon your "likening"...   :sigh:

Most everything you have stated in this reply is UNSCRIPTURAL and barren of its support... rather is founded upon you "likening"... and IMAGINATIONS...

Maybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.

FIRST --- Our seeking is not about who is right and who is wrong, that is SELF-oriented VANITY...

I do not seek to be correct over you... I seek us both to find the TRUTH.

For me, it is about seeking the removal of the VEIL, that understanding of the INFINITE and ALL KNOWING WORD of GOD, be REVEALED by It --- to us --- that we may step even ONE WORD closer to the WRITER of it...

SECOND --- The WORD "MAKES" one FREE, bro... but from what?  :Chinscratch:  (hint: from self)

As far as "FREEDOM" is concerned and attached to "choosing"... to "choose" amiss is NOT "freedom" it is SIN... and only the WORD can FREE the "mischooser" from his "mischoosing" -- John 8:32  

Computers, Dogs and snails, birds, all "choose"... Choice in itself, is not evidence of CONTROL or of FREEDOM...

A murderer "chooses" to KILL... is he FREE committing murder, or in fact, in BONDAGE to the desire to murder?

CHOOSING, is only an inherent characteristic which is GIVEN as an ability within the Created entity which possesses within it, the NEED to "choose" in order to manifest living... and which can only "choose" from options provided to him/her/it... also GIVEN by the Creator...

THIRD ---  For that matter, ...GOD is the maker of ALL THINGS which are "MADE" -- John 1:3 --- including the "choices" (good or evil) which are in fact "things" -- which are, ..."MADE"  :dontknow:


Peace brother tank!  :Peace2:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:50:35 PM by willieH »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #179 on: June 26, 2010, 02:23:14 AM »
Hello Willie

First I did use scriptures, true I did not write them out, but I think you are someone who knows the bible and knows the story of Nineveh. The reason I don't write scriptures is because sometimes it is not necessarry, I just need to remind you of certain scriptures, if there are scriptures that are obscure I will take the time to write them out. The second reason I don't write scriptures is because people rely too much on people's quotes instead of reading the bible for themselves, I hope that my ideas and writings have inspired people to pick up their bible and find the facts for themselves, which I perceive that it has. Third I don't enjoy writing scriptures because they take me a very long time to implement proper grammar and to do it word by word and 4th even though my knowledge of the bible is, I argue better than most Christians(Not necessarily those here) my knowledge of the exact reference point is not so good, so I ask myself is it worth, spending hours on end just to argue with you on this forum, and the answer is no, but don't misunderstand me, I am still making a great effort to reply to your post, I am being a wise steward and investing my time wisely, which I hope you can understand, as I know that the way you write things out using colour, scriptural references is impressive Willie.

Matt 11:23  --- and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.

This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided NOT to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He WITHHELD those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".


But Math is the new testament. Sodom has already been destroyed man choose to sin and it got destroyed. The great works? Who or where did these works come from?
Jesus Christ, but Jesus was not around during the time of Sodom, which makes it even more clear that even Gods will to save in Sodom was not enough to save Sodom and the only way in which it could have been saved would be to send in the son of God manifested in the flesh to reveal the works.


MAYBE?  Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank!

Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed CHRIST, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.

My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed CHRIST and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the FULFILLMENT of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.


Yes Judas was the betrayer, easy to say that now because it has come to pass.

How else would it be accomplished, lets use that imagination of mine, ok, Peter could have betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 pieces?
Ok how about none of the apostles, what about Mary Magdelene, she a familiar friend could have betrayed Christ for 30 pieces.
If Mary was the one that betrayed Christ would that nullify the scriptures?
Yes/no
How would you know in your limited understanding that none of the other aposltes could have betrayed Christ.
Peter was an ambitious fellow, maybe Satan could have tempted him with power, to betray Jesus
But as we know it was Judas who betrayed him and the rest is history.
And Christ said'betray you the son of man with a kiss'
As if suprised, hey I never thought the betrayer would be you Judas, I thought it would have been one of my disciples, but not one of my 12 apostles that's been with me for 3 years, night and day.

As too why 30 pieces, some of you like to make a big deal out of that, and great I like to ponder on deep things meaning to, but for me the immediate and most important things are
1. Judas betrays for money
2. Scripture is fullfilled

Was it God who fullfilled that, was it Satan, or was it Judas that decided that amount and God in his eternal wisdom forknew that Judas would select 30 pieces.

Scripture says that Satan entered him, so that means Satan must have inititated the deal, so maybe since others have pointed out 30 pieces means slave, perhaps Judas sold his soul to the devil for 30 pieces.

Didn't Jesus say, you are either a slave to sin or slave to righteousness, so how did Satan get a foothold on Peter the aposlte,'Get the behind me Satan' -Pride, so how did Satan get a foothold on Judas? The love of ????

EXAMPLE -- Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:

GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...

The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --

    * (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
    * (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
    * (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION..

Actually God created Morphine, which the medical establishment uses to numb pain. The street drug cartels sell this stuff on the street and brand name is heroin, it can be called many things, the drug dealers also add junk into the mixture so that it is different to morphine.

EXAMPLE --- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister...  It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID


In the garden of eden man was given the choice between the good and evil tree and the tree of life, this again makes it clear that God gives us a Choice.

You have established GOD --  as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of KNOWING... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...

What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? -- Nah 1:9 --  Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? -- Rev 21:4


These are statements made by God, therefore they come to pass, there is no need to calculate anything, whatever God states will come to pass.

If God decides everything then why pray?

Let me ask you this, does your idea bring fruit?
The idea that God knows every decision, does not help man at all and makes us passive, why bother praying?
Why bother preaching the gospel?
The classic line that sinners use against saints 'He forknew all who would choose him' Then why bother with me, because it is already established im going to hell.(note most people associate salvation is from ET, but not me)

There is a difference between man being on the throne and doing things his own way, to the man who is in control and is lead by God. There is nothing evil about man making choices, it is God's will that we make choices, otherwise he would not have given Adam and Eve the choice in the garden.

What if Adam and Eve choose the tree of life, things would have been very different.

There are many people in this world who are like Judas, oh the devil made me do it.
Some killers say 'It was Gods will that these people be killed.'


You make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this?  Nah

Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD -- Jer 29:9


Only certain prophecies, others like the birth of Jesus are the workings of God and must come to pass for it is destiny.

God does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...

He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...

If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...


I don't see why not, God desires that we prosper and be in good health. But you are partly right there are many who prophecy lies about material gain, one must ask for Gods wisdom to discern between good and evil, for there are many who come in to fleece the flock. If the prophecies are allways about material wealth, then either that congregation is especially blessed, such as the days of Solomon, or most likely, vanity.


willieH: Hi thinktank...  :happygrin:

You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly.  I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is...  :winkgrin:

 :bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team...  :laughing7:  ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say...  :thumbsup:  But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON...  :dbook: :declare:



Behind this all, there are two views.
Your view where you are cheerleading the man that betrayed Jesus Christ to death(God have mercy)
My view where I am simply on Christs side, who said woe to that man, better for him not to be born.

If Judas is such a hero, then why doesn't God share your enthusiasm? hmm
Yes without Judas how would scripture been fullfilled, but nevertheless who gave you permission to cheerleader and praise Judas, God or yourself?

Sorry for tasting ThinkTanks shells, but maybe its for the best that you no longer praise Judas but praise Jesus instead, I know you already praise Jesus, but give that praise you have for Judas and give it to him that is worthy of praise, Jesus Christ.

ps don't be affraid of the word choice, for sometime the ET preachers have combined this word with choose to go to hell, so maybe you are affraid of that word, because of religious poison.


« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 04:06:05 AM by thinktank »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #180 on: June 26, 2010, 02:58:19 AM »
 :cloud9: Hey, thinktank....when you comment in someone's text, you might want to change the colors of your response for clarity, if you don't use the quote button for every paragraph you want to reply to. Just a suggestion.....blessings.... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #181 on: June 26, 2010, 06:17:21 AM »
willieH: Hi thinktank...  :cloud9:

Again, thanks for your reply.

Hello Willie

First I did use scriptures, true I did not write them out, but I think you are someone who knows the bible and knows the story of Nineveh. The reason I don't write scriptures is because sometimes it is not necessarry, I just need to remind you of certain scriptures, if there are scriptures that are obscure I will take the time to write them out. The second reason I don't write scriptures is because people rely too much on people's quotes instead of reading the bible for themselves, I hope that my ideas and writings have inspired people to pick up their bible and find the facts for themselves, which I perceive that it has. Third I don't enjoy writing scriptures because they take me a very long time to implement proper grammar and to do it word by word and 4th even though my knowledge of the bible is, I argue better than most Christians(Not necessarily those here) my knowledge of the exact reference point is not so good, so I ask myself is it worth, spending hours on end just to argue with you on this forum, and the answer is no, but don't misunderstand me, I am still making a great effort to reply to your post, I am being a wise steward and investing my time wisely, which I hope you can understand, as I know that the way you write things out using colour, scriptural references is impressive Willie.

FIRST --- I was not intending to "argue" with you brother, just discuss... And I did not ask you to "type out" whole verses or passages... I simply requested that you note REFERENCE to what you are basing your view upon, which helps me research your thinking.

SECOND --- I do not use color to impress anyone... most of my use of Color is in typing NAMES for which I hold deep respect, and Scriptural references that support what I believe in the WORD.

Quote from: willieH
Matt 11:23  --- and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.

This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided NOT to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He WITHHELD those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".

But Math is the new testament. Sodom has already been destroyed man choose to sin and it got destroyed. The great works? Who or where did these works come from?
Jesus Christ, but Jesus was not around during the time of Sodom, which makes it even more clear that even Gods will to save in Sodom was not enough to save Sodom and the only way in which it could have been saved would be to send in the son of God manifested in the flesh to reveal the works.

FIRST --- JESUS CHRIST has "been around" for ever!

SECOND --- the WORKS which were done in Capernaum, had GOD decided to do them in Sodom... would have been done... However... that was NOT the decision of GOD.  Therefore Sodom was left to the destiny that GOD had PREDERMINED it would experience while it existed within this realm.

THIRD --- Upon what do base that -- "it was GOD's WILL to save SODOM"? (I am asking you to sustanciate this claim with the WORD, not just your opinion)

Quote from: willieH
MAYBE?  Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank!

Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed CHRIST, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.

My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed CHRIST and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the FULFILLMENT of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.

Yes Judas was the betrayer, easy to say that know because it has come to pass.

How else would it be accomplished, lets use that imagination of mine, ok, Peter could have betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 pieces?
Ok how about none of the apostles, what about Mary Magdelene, she a familiar friend could have betrayed Christ for 30 pieces.
If Mary was the one that betrayed Christ would that nullify the scriptures?
Yes/no
How would you know in your limited understanding that none of the other aposltes could have betrayed Christ.

REALITY does not contain "what if's" or "coulda's, woulda's or shoulda's"... what IS, ...IS... anything else is FICTION... Because Scientists today propose there are innumberable Universes, does not mean that IN FACT there are... Only in their IMAGINATION do these "innumerable Universes" exist.

Stephen King novels "could be" real... but, the truth is (thank God), they are NOT!  Just products of a darkened imagination, that is all.

Your "IMAGINATION" is invalid bro... We can SPECULATE all we like, but the WORD must verify what we believe, otherwise we are living amidst our own DELUSIONS...

The WORD verifies that JUDAS was the betrayer... and that HE FULFILLED Scripture in doing so...

GOD is PERFECT... and EVERYTHING within EVERY ONE of His prophesies comes to PASS AS PROPHESIED... Peter, nor Mary Magdalene, nor any other person or persons you might "dream up", BETRAYED Him to the authorities which put Him to death... (though we have ALL betrayed Him in the Spirit)

REALITY is REALITY... These were NOT PROPHESIED to BETRAY... and, just FYI... it is quite dangerous for you to imply as well as APPLY -- IMPERFECTION and CHANCE to the doings of GOD.  :sigh:

Peter was an ambitious fellow, maybe Satan could have tempted him with power, to betray Jesus
But as we know it was Judas who betrayed him and the rest is history.
And Christ said'betray you the son of man with a kiss'
As if suprised, hey I never thought the betrayer would be you Judas, I thought it would have been one of my disciples, but not one of my 12 apostles that's been with me for 3 years, night and day.

More unfounded opinion and speculation... CHRIST was not at all "surprised" that JUDAS was the one... Which Scripture verifies His "surprise", thinktank?

If anything CHRIST was disgusted with the betrayal, obviously dreading it (as is exampled by His request that cup pass)... especially because it would come via a TRUSTED FRIEND.  Nothing in Scripture (that I have found) indicates that He was "surprised"...

As too why 30 pieces, some of you like to make a big deal out of that, and great I like to ponder on deep things meaning to, but for me the immediate and most important things are
1. Judas betrays for money
2. Scripture is fullfilled

"Money" was involved, because the PROPHECY of the WORD said money would be involved in it...  NOT because JUDAS decided money would have part in this...

Was it God who fullfilled that, was it Satan, or was it Judas that decided that amount and God in his eternal wisdom forknew that Judas would select 30 pieces.

Scripture says that Satan entered him, so that means Satan must have inititated the deal, so maybe since others have pointed out 30 pieces means slave, perhaps Judas sold his soul to the devil for 30 pieces.

FIRST -- "satan" is the principality of adversity, not a sentient being with an "agenda".  Look up the hebrew word "satan"...

RELIGION has created this fallacy... so no "being" that RELIGION calls "satan" -- "initiated" anything... this is SPECULATION based upon the fallacy of "satan" as a being.

SECOND -- No one can "sell" that which does not belong to him... You are NOT YOUR OWN... you are bought with a price --  1 Cor 6:19-20

Quote from: willieH
EXAMPLE -- Please don't get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:

GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...

The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --

    * (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
    * (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
    * (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION..

Actually God created Morphine, which the medical establishment uses to numb pain. The street drug cartels sell this stuff on the street and brand name is heroin, it can be called many things, the drug dealers also add junk into the mixture so that it is different to morphine.

The point is NOT the name of the drug... the point is that the knowledge to process Morphine, Heroin or whatever another might call it, smack, horse, whatever... came from the MIND that GOD manufactured, and information that was HIS before it was discovered by MAN.

I'll end here and continue the answer in another post.

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 09:31:08 PM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #182 on: June 26, 2010, 08:24:25 AM »
willieH: Hi t-tank... :hithere:

Continuing:

EXAMPLE --- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister...  It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID

I do not see that you have answered this...

In the garden of eden man was given the choice between the good and evil tree and the tree of life, this again makes it clear that God gives us a Choice.

Where is this "choice" so noted in the WORD, thinktank?  That Man "CHOSE BETWEEN" the tree of KNOWLEDGE and the "tree of life"?  Methinks you have created yet another imagination.

Again "choosing" does not propose FREEDOM.  In all my studies (34 years) I have not found a Scripture that notes a CHOICE was made OR even PROPOSED, ...BETWEEN the "tree of KNOWLEDGE" and the "tree of LIFE"... PLEASE show me where it is... thanks!  :dontknow:

You have established GOD --  as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of KNOWING... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...

What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? -- Nah 1:9 --  Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? -- Rev 21:4

These are statements made by God, therefore they come to pass, there is no need to calculate anything, whatever God states will come to pass.

This statement is a renege of what YOU said previously here:

You see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.

That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions.  He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.

"Likely" is not EXACT... only a "good bet"... You say GOD does not KNOW what shall occur in some instances

Your words double-speak... "He knows ALL THINGS" -- "He does NOT KNOW in certain instances" -- "He knows every parameter and every POTENTIAL decision you will ever make"...

GOD cannot "KNOW ALL THINGS", and yet NOT KNOW ALL THINGS = in certain instances, the choices we shall make!

If God decides everything then why pray?

Because HE has commanded us to pray... even though HE ALREADY KNOWS what we shall ask for.  His command is REASON ENOUGH to obey it.  That He already knows, makes no difference... What actually prayer is, is the exercising of FAITH, which IS GOOD for us... and the result of FAITH benefits US... not GOD.

Let me ask you this, does your idea bring fruit?
The idea that God knows every decision, does not help man at all and makes us passive, why bother praying?


It might make YOU passive, and that is your affair... For me, to "obey" Him, is the POWER of GOD, actively living in my LIFE... You and I do not have "faith" that is ours... we have the FAITH of JESUS working IN US... You and I are to DIE of ourselves... that He may LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20

Why bother preaching the gospel?

JESUS commanded us to do so... do you need more reason than that, t-tank?

I cannot believe you are a man of faith and do not KNOW these things Nicodemus... err.. I mean, thinktank.

Preaching the "GOSPEL" of YOURSELF is worthless... and a work of carnality.

Preaching the GOSPEL by submitting to CHRIST in the  presenting of HIS FAITH, LOVE and PEACE which you know of CHRIST in your heart, before another to consider... is DIVINE...  for only the PEACE and FAITH of CHRIST (not "willieH" or "thinktank") can and WILL, effectively produce "fruit"...

We always leave the increase to Him... It does not matter to me, who hears and who does not... that is GOD's decision.  I am faithful to present what I have found, and continue to search for correction, and for more, daily.

Here is some of the CORRECTION that I have recieved:  10 Years ago, I "believed" in --- ET -- the Rapture -- Eternal separation from God -- HELL -- "free will" -- the "millenium" -- Spiritual Israel -- Fallen angels -- "satan" (as a sentient being) -- friday crucifixtion, sunday resurrection -- Creation being the beginning of our existence --- just to mention a few... ALL of which I have found to be LIES when compared to what the Scriptures actually present, ALL of which are THEOLOGICAL creations of men in their VANITY...

The classic line that sinners use against saints 'He forknew all who would choose him' Then why bother with me, because it is already established im going to hell.(note most people associate salvation is from ET, but not me)

"Sinners" include EVERYONE... as does "SAINTS"... one happens to believe in this present moment, the others have yet to be UNVEILED.

One (let us say an athiest another person of a given "religion") which has not yet been DRAGGED to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- and then had REVELATION of Father YHVH, done BY the WORD -- Matt 11:27

I, which spent 30 years of my life without GOD in it... and the last 34 diligently seeking Him... am the perfect example of this.  

I can testify that I was partying VERY hearty drinking, smoking, whatever -- I was foul mouthed, promiscuous, and as fleshly as I could be...

Then one day... I woke up and found myself TIRED of this lifestyle... Why?  I did not know. I was having the "time of my life" as many might view me.  I was popular with everyone, prospering in health, money etc... but something was missing in all of this... that day a 7th Day Adventist preacher came knocking at my door, asking if I might be interested in a Bible study... At first, I cringed inside (as GOD began to DRAG ME), but for some reason (it being HIS WILL) I consented to it... the next week, a friend came to visit one of my roomates.  Since that day, ...she and I have studied together this WORD througout the 34 YEARS of our WONDERFUL Marriage...

Don't tell me that miracles do not happen to "sinners" which do not "believe" in God... nor that ANYONE is beyond the reach of YHVH... If He could so change my entire life... He shall do it for ALL... for He is COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL to ALL men -- Acts 10:34

There is a difference between man being on the throne and doing things his own way, to the man who is in control and is lead by God. There is nothing evil about man making choices, it is God's will that we make choices, otherwise he would not have given Adam and Eve the choice in the garden.

I am a believer in COMPLETE DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY... these words are "preaching to the choir"...  We "choose", but only as has already been DECLARED by GOD --- Isaiah 46:10 -- the "things not yet DONE" amounts to EVERY THING...

What if Adam and Eve choose the tree of life, things would have been very different.

"What if" elephants could tie square knots? ...or "what if" Adam & Eve were GORILLAS? ...or "what if" eyes were FEET? ...or "what if" NOTHING was SOMETHING... or "what if" milk was beer? ...or "what if" inside was outside? ...do you see the silliness in this yet, thinktank?  Or do you need more "what ifs"?

In REALITY, ..."what if's" DO NOT exist bro... and you have yet to produce this "choice" as Scripturally presented to Adam & Eve (that they were to "choose" between the "tree of G & E or the "tree of life)

There are many people in this world who are like Judas, oh the devil made me do it.
Some killers say 'It was Gods will that these people be killed.'
 

ALL men are JUDAS, thinktank, including YOU... we ALL have betrayed Him... You think yourself exempt?  Did He not DIE because of YOU and YOUR BETRAYAL of Him, in part?

You are welcome to this "thinking in your tank"... but as for me, no thanks.

Quote from: willieH
You make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this?  Nah

Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD -- Jer 29:9

Only certain prophecies, others like the birth of Jesus are the workings of God and must come to pass for it is destiny.

So then, ...it is "thinktank"  which reveals of the "prophesies" ...which are made are of God and which are not?   :wacko2:

Quote from: willieH
God does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...

He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...

If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...

I don't see why not

Therein lies the problem brother...  :sigh:

God desires that we prosper and be in good health. But you are partly right there are many who prophecy lies about material gain, one must ask for Gods wisdom to discern between good and evil, for there are many who come in to fleece the flock. If the prophecies are allways about material wealth, then either that congregation is especially blessed, such as the days of Solomon, or most likely, vanity.

Here is a Scripture forya, which IMO [in my observation] tells us what is of God and what is NOT:

Matt 6:24 -- [Luke 16:13] -- No man can serve TWO masters: for EITHER he will hate the one, and love the other or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye CANNOT serve GOD ...and... MAMMON -- Mammon=wealth -- #G3126 -- Mammonas

willieH: Hi thinktank...  :happygrin:

You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly.  I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is...  :winkgrin:

 :bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team...  :laughing7:  ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say...  :thumbsup:  But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON...  :dbook: :declare:

Behind this all, there are two views.
Your view where you are cheerleading the man that betrayed Jesus Christ to death(God have mercy)
My view where I am simply on Christs side, who said woe to that man, better for him not to be born.

This is simply IMO, tunnel vision.

FIRST ---  I salute ("cheerlead") GOD for the doings of JUDAS, for without him, you and I would be destined to DIE FOREVER... therein lies my "cheerleading"...

SECOND --- You are welcome to continue your belief about JUDAS (that he should never have been born), but had he never been born, it would have been maybe YOU... that God chose to do this...  :dontknow:  ...For if NO one did the "JUDAS" betrayal... NO ONE would be SAVED.

Just as many think the "thief" went to heaven with CHRIST on the day of the crucifixtion... when CHRIST ...DIED on that day...

If Judas is such a hero, then why doesn't God share your enthusiasm? hmm
Yes without Judas how would scripture been fullfilled, but nevertheless who gave you permission to cheerleader and praise Judas, God or yourself?

I have not deemed JUDAS a "hero" you have... I have stated that without HIS doing... neither of us would be saved... I therefore SALUTE GOD in choosing JUDAS to do what he did.  

GOD sent CHRIST to taste death for JUDAS, as much as for you or I, thinktank... I believe that to be quite "ENTHUSIASTIC" of GOD...

Just as I praise GOD that PHARAOH was raised to IMPRISON God's people... for in the end (as with JUDAS)... his actions brought GLORY to GOD -- Rom 9:17

I need no "permission" necessary other than EXALTING the GLORY that was given to GOD via these 2 sinners and their PHYSICALLY dastardly deeds... which resulted in SPIRITUAL GOOD, despite originating in the carnality and selfishness of  EVIL...  :dontknow:

Sorry for tasting ThinkTanks shells, but maybe its for the best that you no longer praise Judas but praise Jesus instead, I know you already praise Jesus, but give that praise you have for Judas and give it to him that is worthy of praise, Jesus Christ.

You know nothing of my praise, thinktank... I praise CHRIST for JUDAS... for without the WORD proclaiming His BETRAYER to BETRAY... there would be nothing for any of us.

ps don't be affraid of the word choice, for sometime the ET preachers have combined this word with choose to go to hell, so maybe you are affraid of that word, because of religious poison.

 :laughhand:  I think it is YOU which has "fear" of choice, bro... I KNOW where all choice is rooted (within the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS), ...you on the other hand... are hoping to "choose" correctly, fearful of making an incorrect "choice"...  :sigh:

I on the other hand, fight the aggresssion of the flesh in which I am resident, to submit it to GOD, as did PAUL -- Rom 7 [whole chapter] -- the FLESH which continually desires me to "choose" IT and its desires, instead of that which my INNER MAN (JESUS CHRIST)  commands to be manifest.  In PEACE... In that submission I find PEACE, not FEAR as you suppose in me, as I "choose" within and during the walk of life.  KNOWING that GOD is DIRECTING my steps, and in them, my "choices" -- which have to do with such as YOU or anyone else with which my life might interact -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9

I have already faced death recently (cancer)... and am not in the least FEARFUL of anything in my life... for I know that GOD directs EACH of my steps... regardless of how I might judge and/or look upon them as GOOD or EVIL...  He is IN CONTROL... not me.  And I am at PEACE within HIS LOVE -- 1 John 4:18 --because of it...  :boogie:

 :friendstu:  May YOU so enjoy His PEACE as well...  :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 09:56:49 PM by willieH »

Offline shawn

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #183 on: June 29, 2010, 12:17:01 AM »
KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=> Did Judas follow Jesus?
=> If not there should have been a 13th listner in the room.
=> But I think that's just trying very hard to read what's not there.

KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=> Same verse is a little different wording
=> If Jesus wanted to exclude someone He would have used other words. Or be more vague like when He said He would be betrayed.

So those verses plus the verse I mention seem to be very clear Judas is also on a throne and not in hell.
I wouldn't be suprised Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas hated that task and that's why he wished He never was born.  :2c:



That is fascinating.  That's why I like this board.  Learn something new everyday.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #184 on: June 29, 2010, 07:07:58 AM »
KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=> Did Judas follow Jesus?
=> If not there should have been a 13th listner in the room.
=> But I think that's just trying very hard to read what's not there.

KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=> Same verse is a little different wording
=> If Jesus wanted to exclude someone He would have used other words. Or be more vague like when He said He would be betrayed.

So those verses plus the verse I mention seem to be very clear Judas is also on a throne and not in hell.
I wouldn't be suprised Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas hated that task and that's why he wished He never was born.  :2c:



That is fascinating.  That's why I like this board.  Learn something new everyday.
:thumbsup: Amen

Hey jab  gonna read them books the lord is good
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 12:15:21 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #185 on: August 14, 2010, 06:58:09 AM »
Intriguing find, folks.  I found a link to a book review on an old universalist book, that states the following;

Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born".  The author states "this is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews".  He further states Judas repented, that there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, does he believe Judas hanged himself.  He states the Greek word apegxato was, as he suggests, incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".

More here;  

http://books.google.com/books?id=P4eMmQL6rU4C&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=universalism+book+son+of+perdition&source=bl&ots=iqvqENFfNT&sig=pXfmcjalZxHkNt-8cUrzfKEiohE&hl=en&ei=8BBmTLuIMIOC8gaMlLGfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #186 on: August 14, 2010, 07:13:02 AM »
Intriguing find, folks.  I found a link to a book review on an old universalist book, that states the following;

Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born".  The author states "this is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews".  He further states Judas repented, that there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, does he believe Judas hanged himself.  He states the Greek word apegxato was, as he suggests, incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".

More here;  

http://books.google.com/books?id=P4eMmQL6rU4C&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=universalism+book+son+of+perdition&source=bl&ots=iqvqENFfNT&sig=pXfmcjalZxHkNt-8cUrzfKEiohE&hl=en&ei=8BBmTLuIMIOC8gaMlLGfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
what about the other gospel though that says judas got bust and his belly gushed in half. To me that means he hanged himself and got split in half. But how would the book interpret that?


Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #187 on: August 14, 2010, 07:15:50 AM »
take a look at the link.  even if you don't agree with it, it's quite interesting.  the author seems to believe the thing you note is the correct ending to judas' natural life, but he suggests it was something separate from him suiciding by hanging himself.  i'm not sure how he thinks it happened, i need to look at it some more myself.  in fact, as soon as i hit 'post', i'm going there  :Sparkletooth:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #188 on: August 14, 2010, 07:22:15 AM »
he also states what I've mentioned - and White Wings - that judas was present when Jesus told the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones, those who had followed Him in the regeneration.  Not sure exactly what that means, but he states judas was part of all that, and sees no evidence he's not regenerated himself and will reign just as Jesus promised.  

I think it would be a good book to have, or at least have access to.  The online info is a little limited, but i'll search a little more...

Edit - OK, found this on TM.  Gary put it on by permission, I think it's only one chapter;

 http://www.tentmaker.org/books/InFavorCh20.html
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 07:26:09 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #189 on: August 14, 2010, 08:31:43 PM »
Regeneration is the next life.
Meaning:  1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration 1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death 1b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge 1c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught 1d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven. 1e) other uses 1e1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile 1e2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile 1e3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection

/EDIT
TCB translates it as rebirth
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #190 on: August 14, 2010, 09:05:30 PM »
Reading your Google book James.

KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

perdition=destruction. But 'your book' calls it "ill fortune". Just like Judas had bad luck. Didn't all of the 12 die voilent deaths?



Not the whole book can be downloaded for free by clicking on the downloadlink at the top right.
A bulky 15MB pdf that can't be searched or copied from.
Or a 900KB ePUB file that can be searched and copied from. But it requires ePUB reader software.
Free ePub readers: Stanza   FBreader
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #191 on: August 14, 2010, 09:06:39 PM »
what about the other gospel though that says judas got bust and his belly gushed in half. To me that means he hanged himself and got split in half. But how would the book interpret that?
Or he hanged himself and the rope of branch of the tree broke after a while. And then he fell?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #192 on: August 14, 2010, 09:41:28 PM »
what about the other gospel though that says judas got bust and his belly gushed in half. To me that means he hanged himself and got split in half. But how would the book interpret that?
Or he hanged himself and the rope of branch of the tree broke after a while. And then he fell?

Cool on the book.

Here's what the author says about this;  "...Judas cast down the pieces of silver and went out, not only repenting, but with such highly-grieved, mortified, and wounded feelings, that he was completely suffocated and choked with grief, to that degree, that he actually fell headlong, bursting asunder, and thus expiring in a moment of grief, repentance, and agony.  What more pitiable could his condition have been? and what stronger evidence of sorrow and compunction could have been manifested? and he, who feels to pursue and follow him, even into eternity, and further torment him there, must be destitute of all sympathy, and even humanity itself.  ..."that he might go to his his own place"...what does it prove?  Certainly, not that he has gone to an endless hell; for no such place is defined or taught in the Bible....    [***interestingly, I think the following addresses our many assumptions we make about scripture, automatically inserting our own bias and preconceived ideas about what things mean - jabcat] ..his own place could signify no more than to his former state or condition;  or, if applied to his death, could imply no more than that he gone to the state of the dead in general;  independently of either rewards or punishment;   as is evidently taught in Eccl. 3:20, "All go unto one place;  all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again".
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

LS

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #193 on: August 14, 2010, 09:50:38 PM »
Reading your Google book James.

KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I don't think Judas was any hero.  I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.

Consider these words from The Message:

But if our wrongdoing only underlines and confirms God's rightdoing, shouldn't we be commended for helping out? Since our bad words don't even make a dent in his good words, isn't it wrong of God to back us to the wall and hold us to our word?
These questions come up. The answer to such questions is no, a most emphatic No! How else would things ever get straightened out if God didn't do the straightening?
It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor." Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree.  (Romans 3:5-8)


Isn't it perverse to say Judas' betrayal was God's fault?  It is, to me.

As far as the twelve, and the twelve thrones, consider this passage as well:
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
   " 'May his place be deserted;
      let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
   " 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:20-21)


Does this not satisfy that particular question?

just my  :2c:


Shadow

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #194 on: August 15, 2010, 01:19:31 AM »
[

I don't think Judas was any hero.  I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.

Consider these words from The Message:

But if our wrongdoing only underlines and confirms God's rightdoing, shouldn't we be commended for helping out? Since our bad words don't even make a dent in his good words, isn't it wrong of God to back us to the wall and hold us to our word?
These questions come up. The answer to such questions is no, a most emphatic No! How else would things ever get straightened out if God didn't do the straightening?
It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor." Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree.  (Romans 3:5-8)


Isn't it perverse to say Judas' betrayal was God's fault?  It is, to me.

As far as the twelve, and the twelve thrones, consider this passage as well:
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
   " 'May his place be deserted;
      let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
   " 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:20-21)


Does this not satisfy that particular question?

just my  :2c:



It was predestined

Joh 13:12  So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17  If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19  Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21  When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Joh 13:22  Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
Joh 13:23  Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Joh 13:24  Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
Joh 13:25  He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Joh 13:26  Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Joh 13:28  Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
Joh 13:29  For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
Joh 13:30  He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Joh 13:31  Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Joh 13:32  If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Joh 13:33  Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 13:36  Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
Joh 13:37  Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
Joh 13:38  Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #195 on: August 15, 2010, 03:05:56 AM »
Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled,  :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

LS

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #196 on: August 15, 2010, 03:24:10 AM »
Respectfully, that doesn't say he was predestined; only that the event was the fulfilling of scripture.

God is outside of time and He chose to reveal future events to prophets in the OT.  I don't think that is the same as pre-destination.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #197 on: August 16, 2010, 07:57:23 PM »
Reading your Google book James.

KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I don't think Judas was any hero.  I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.

Consider these words from The Message:

But if our wrongdoing only underlines and confirms God's rightdoing, shouldn't we be commended for helping out? Since our bad words don't even make a dent in his good words, isn't it wrong of God to back us to the wall and hold us to our word?
These questions come up. The answer to such questions is no, a most emphatic No! How else would things ever get straightened out if God didn't do the straightening?
It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor." Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree.  (Romans 3:5-8)


Isn't it perverse to say Judas' betrayal was God's fault?  It is, to me.

As far as the twelve, and the twelve thrones, consider this passage as well:
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
   " 'May his place be deserted;
      let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
   " 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:20-21)


Does this not satisfy that particular question?

just my  :2c:



Finally, someone who understands  :thumbsup:

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #198 on: August 16, 2010, 08:39:52 PM »
willieH: Hi LS...  :happygrin:

Respectfully, that doesn't say he was predestined; only that the event was the fulfilling of scripture.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?  :omg:

:JCThink:  What is the difference, LS?  

Respectfully, ...since you are so certain that "predestination" and "fulfillment of Scripture" (which is fulfililng PROPHECY) are NOT the same, ...I welcome you to explain the difference between the two... :declare:

Predestination = Something occuring EXACTLY as GOD decided it would occur.
Prophecy = foretelling of something which would occur EXACTLY as GOD decided it would occur....

If Judas was in portion, ..."fulfilling Scripture", then he (Judas) was not the "decider" of the event, nor of his own doings within it.  He was "doing" as Scripture FORETOLD he would "DO"... and because the SCRIPTURE cannot be BROKEN -- John 10:34 -- Judas had NO CHOICE in the matter, and was COMPELLED by the WRITING of GOD, to ...DO... as was WRITTEN OF HIM.

For the FULFILLMENT of SCRIPTURE is the WORK of GOD in men...  Just as HE [GOD] "raised" Pharaoh to do what he "did" -- Rom 9:17 -- did HE [GOD] "raise" Judas, to do what he "did"!  

That you do not acknowledge this method of processing, is due to the ingraining of Orthodox theology, within your thinking which is IN BONDAGE to it.  :sigh:  

This is not your fault... for YOU (as well as all) are doing as GOD has outlined that YOU shall "DO" in your moments, as HE DIRECTS the steps of your life, of which YOU have no KNOWLEDGE -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24

If what you claim is in fact TRUE, then everything JESUS did (in fulfilling the Scriptures written of His life), were of HIMSELF, and He LIED in saying "of MYSELF, I DO NOTHING" -- John 5:19 & 30

God is outside of time and He chose to reveal future events to prophets in the OT.  I don't think that is the same as pre-destination.

Again, ...if it (prophecy) is not (predestination), what is it LS?  :dontknow:

Since you are so certain these are different, then obviously you shall be able to explain to us, in what way or ways, these 2 things (predestination/prophecy), differ from one another...

If the TRUTH revealed is not something that GOD decided would "BE" as it IS and as it OCCURS in this realm... and it (the TRUTH) could not "BE" otherwise, then what  explanation do you offer for this procedure?  

Other than it was PREDESTINED (prophesied) to "BE" ...EXACTLY... as it OCCURS??  ... :dunno:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 02:33:37 AM by willieH »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #199 on: August 16, 2010, 09:08:50 PM »
Reading your Google book James.

KJVJoh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
I don't think Judas was any hero.  I think he made a choice for evil, and Jesus was clear in saying he was lost to destruction and it would have been better if he had never been born.
Better have not been born (dis)proves nothing. Could just as well mean he got one of the worst possible tasks.
KJVLuk 22:31-32 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
===> Jesus stopped Satan entering Simon
KJVLuk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
===> What didn't Jesus block Satan this time?
===> Simon is the good guy because he got help and Judas teh bad guy because he didn't get help when he most needed it.
KJV1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
===> Saul/Paul is even worse as Judas.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...