Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 51940 times)

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Online micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2010, 07:51:59 AM »
I will admit now that I did not read all the posts,  but the question
"Judas better if he had not been born?" is interesting. I contend that if should Judas not have been an obedient servant, the whole of God's plan and purpose would have been, no contest.
Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17  If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19  From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21  When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Joh 13:22  The disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
Joh 13:23  There was at the table reclining in Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Joh 13:24  Simon Peter therefore beckoneth to him, and saith unto him, Tell us who it is of whom he speaketh.
Joh 13:25  He leaning back, as he was, on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Joh 13:26  Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
Joh 13:27  And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly.
Without the obedience of Judas, Jesus would not have been delivered up.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2010, 05:16:41 PM »
 :cloud9: What I also find interesting about that scene is that it was the custom to give the first "sop" as an honor to a special guest.

I also think about how He said He only spoke what He heard the Father speak, so technically Him saying that one would betray Him could be construed as a command of the Father who spoke everything into existance.

And then Satan entered into Judas AFTER He told him what thou doest, do quickly. Makes me wonder if Judas could NOT have done it, without the addition of Satan. Satan must left him afterwards, for him to have felt repentance. My  :2c:  Blessings.....
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 02:48:02 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #152 on: May 21, 2010, 02:17:10 AM »
willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

I just saw this post, and all I can say is ...WOW!

:cloud9: What I also find interesting about that scene is that it was the custom to give the first "sop" as an honor to a special guest.


:omg: ...WOW!

Quote
I also think about how He said He only spoke what He heard the Father speak, so technically Him saying that one would betray Him could be construed as a command of the Father who spoke everything into existance.

:omg: ...WOW!

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #153 on: May 21, 2010, 02:48:45 AM »
 :cloud9: Something to reflect on, isn't it? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #154 on: May 21, 2010, 04:25:36 AM »


Reflecting on Scriptures, especially John 13:27, it may have taken Judas by surprise.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2010, 02:07:42 AM »
Jesus says these things must be to fullfill scripture

but nevertheless better for him to have flung a millstone around his neck and cast into the sea

The betrayer could of been any of the disciples, but Judas was the one who decided to do it, by exchanging him for 30 pieces of " shiekels' of silver he also decided to betray Jesus with a kiss.

So according to the universalist position, or at least from my point of view as an universalist, it would be better for him to be cast into the sea and out of sight, not to escape eternal hell, as some Christians interpret, but because of the eternal shame he will have to endure, when he is raised from the dead and becomes face to face with the risen Jesus Christ. A far cry from the meek and lowly Jesus he was accustomed to when he was upon the Earth as a disciple.

Due to his shame for what he has done im not sure that Judas will desire to be a partaker of Christs sacrifice and so may settle for eternal death.

The prophecies concerning Judas are contained in the book of psalms I think.

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2010, 03:39:33 PM »
Hey TT,

when you describe Judas I see you describing me and every other person I know. I have done as bad and worse towards Jesus, in Adam, as Judas has. Do you understand what I am saying here?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2010, 05:45:47 PM »
Have you betrayed, the son of man into death?


Confess your sins and he shall cleanse you of all unrighteousness

kiss the son lest he be angry

Blessed are they who have not seen yet believed

Those who confess now will be cleansed and not have to walk naked and they see their shame

The blood of Jesus washes away all sin and God promises that it will not even come to his remembrance, but for those who are not washed their sin will be laid bare before all

For there is nothing hid that will not be made known

It is possible to die in your sins as Jesus speaks of in the Gospel, which means Judas his sin will be made bare before all, not a pleasant experience for him I imagine.

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2010, 07:40:17 PM »
Have you betrayed, the son of man into death?

Yes I have, in Adam. Have you?


Confess your sins and he shall cleanse you of all unrighteousness

kiss the son lest he be angry

I have and continue to do so, in Christ.


Blessed are they who have not seen yet believed

Those who confess now will be cleansed and not have to walk naked and they see their shame

The blood of Jesus washes away all sin and God promises that it will not even come to his remembrance, but for those who are not washed their sin will be laid bare before all

For there is nothing hid that will not be made known

Amen, exactly as it should be.


It is possible to die in your sins as Jesus speaks of in the Gospel, which means Judas his sin will be made bare before all, not a pleasant experience for him I imagine.

I did die in my sins, in Adam, and it is not a pleasant experience.

TT, have you ever perceived yourself as in Adam in any way at any time?

cp?
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2010, 08:36:59 PM »
Have you betrayed, the son of man into death?
Yes I have, in Adam. Have you?
Claypot

Adam was a sinner for he obeyed not the voice of the Lords and ate of the tree of good and evil.
Not much of a sin as such, but after eating the tree of good and evil, he would have more knowledge of evil and probably ended up doing more sins.

God planted that tree of good and evil in the garden, and knew what he was doing, he foreknew that Christ would have to end up sacrificing himself on the cross for the sins of man, but he put that tree there anyway. For all things work together for the good, now that we have the knowledge and experience of sin, we can either prefer it more than God or choose God over the sins, a great test that God has given to all men, and also proves that his son Jesus is obedient to the father even unto the cross, unlike Lucifier, who rebelled against the father and went his own way. Also the cross proves to all creation in existence the great length and breadth of Gods love.


We have to pay the penalty of Adams disobedience, but Adam himself did not betray Jesus to death.

We are all accountable for our own sins and sometimes reap our fathers, father, even 4 generations.
The iniquities of the fathers shall be laid upon the sons

Diseases tend to pass on to generation to generation according to the Doctors and the bible says that it is because of the sins of the previous generations.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 02:18:42 AM by thinktank »

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #160 on: June 16, 2010, 02:27:09 AM »
TT, have you ever perceived yourself as in Adam in any way at any time?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #161 on: June 16, 2010, 03:08:33 AM »

We have to pay the penalty of Adams disobedience, but Adam himself did not betray Jesus to death.

If Adam did not, who did?

Is not Jesus the Truth and the Way and did not Adam crucify Him when disobeying God? Is not Jesus Obedience personified and did not Adam crucify Him as such?


We are all accountable for our own sins and sometimes reap our fathers, father, even 4 generations.
The iniquities of the fathers shall be laid upon the sons

Diseases tend to pass on to generation to generation according to the Doctors and the bible says that it is because of the sins of the previous generations.

The sins and victories over sin from way back to Adam are mine. I acknowledge this because as in Adam all sin, in Christ all are made alive. I am in Adam. I am an individual in Adam.

Do you understand this?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #162 on: June 16, 2010, 04:28:22 AM »
The sins and victories over sin from way back to Adam are mine. I acknowledge this because as in Adam all sin, in Christ all are made alive. I am in Adam. I am an individual in Adam.

Do you understand this?
claypot

Whatever, I think you are overcomplicating things, you are claiming Adams sin as yours, do that if you wish, but there is no scripture I know of which says we must confess Adams sins. From my understanding, we are only blood relatives of Adam and I don't remember any old testament prophet confessing Adams sins. The bible says we are accountable for our own sins and sometimes, our fathers and sometimes the nations.
The scripture that says in Adam we all die but in Christ we shall all be made alive, I believe it is the reference that our first model human prototype or seed was unsuccessfull, but our second seed, Christ, Abrahams, seed that would bless all nations, is Christ, who unlike Adam, succeeded. So once we are raised from the dead at the last trumpet we are no longer of the Earth and are similar to the flesh and blood model Adam, but now we are made spiritual just like the angels in likeness to our new prototype model, Jesus Christ.

Whats important from this thread is that one doesn't find yourself, having pity on Judas and end up hurting Jesus our Lord.

Jesus himself, said that it would be better for that man not to be born.

Now if you make up excuses for Judas behaviour or pretend that the Lord was not displeased with him, then one could be upseting our Lord Jesus Christ.

Judas betrayed Jesus into death for a pathetic amount of money, and the psalms quote that Jesus saw Judas as his familiar friend that betrayed him.

Regardless of the philosphy of how the plan was carried out, whether it was Satan's, God or Judas, one must not overlook the scriptures, which clearly point out that Jesus was upset with Judas.

If one has to much concern for Judas, why is that?

Should we be more concerned about Jesus our Lord and let him be the righteous judge
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 12:36:17 AM by thinktank »

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #163 on: June 16, 2010, 06:02:27 AM »
I see so much of 'Judas' in me and others but, praise be to God, I see much of Jesus within too. I do not see an 'us and them' scenario nor do I believe it is in Scripture nor the heart of God. This is all a 'God' thing and in Him we live and move and have our being as some poets say.

I have no pity on Judas. 'He' must go, Jesus must live and he will and He will according to the desire of God according to the Scriptures, and that is what is important.

So simple, not complicated as you seem to think according to your comment.

Judas betrayed Jesus for a pathetic amount of money as you say and I have betrayed Jesus for much less in my day. I rest in peace only because of Grace.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #164 on: June 16, 2010, 08:37:51 AM »
Judas betrayed Jesus for a pathetic amount of money as you say and I have betrayed Jesus for much less in my day. I rest in peace only because of Grace.
The price of slave. A deeper meaning I think.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #165 on: June 16, 2010, 09:48:23 PM »
 :cloud9: Thirty pieces of silver, 30 fold realm/outer court. They have already betrayed Him by refusing to press in to 60 fold, ect. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #166 on: June 16, 2010, 11:41:25 PM »
Card, you're way beyond be as usual but maybe you might care to explain a bit and I'll see if this lump of clay (me) can glean anything from your usual very thought filled words!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #167 on: June 16, 2010, 11:51:04 PM »



THE FRUIT ARE REAPED WHERE THE SEED IS SOWN.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #168 on: June 17, 2010, 07:26:22 AM »
 :cloud9: Check out the Tabernacle sticky thread CP, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Too much on there to repost here......blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #169 on: June 17, 2010, 03:20:25 PM »
Thanks.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Online micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #170 on: June 24, 2010, 09:23:40 PM »
Just going over this last page of posts and mighty fine some of them and a blessing but I can no longer use the word betrayed, it sounds so hatefu;l and when I read the words in John, I cannot hear Jesus speaking harshly of Judas. I can agree with Beloved Servant that Judas may even have been surprised. I like the rendering of Youngs

Joh 13:21  These things having said, Jesus was troubled in the spirit, and did testify, and said, `Verily, verily, I say to you, that one of you will deliver me

Joh 13:16  verily, verily, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his lord, nor an apostle greater than he who sent him;
 
Joh 13:18  not concerning you all do I speak; I have known whom I chose for myself;
Peace and Love Through Jesus as I pray to understand with the mind of Christ
And Claypot I can hear you.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #171 on: June 24, 2010, 11:23:38 PM »
willieH: Hi thinktank...  :happygrin:

You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly.  I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is...  :winkgrin:

 :bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team...  :laughing7:  ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say...  :thumbsup:  But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON...  :dbook: :declare:

Jesus says these things must be to fullfill scripture

If SCRIPTURE was being FULFILLED (which it was), then JUDAS was the one which the WORD had already indicated... and had no "choice" to alter what was already noted by the WORD.

Not ONE element of the life of CHRIST was left up to "chance" or the "decisions" of men.

Scripture is NEVER on the -- "let's wait & see what men decide to do" program, or -- is NEVER based on "which disciple decided to do this or that"...

It is an EXACT and PERFECT notation of what WILL occur, within the doings of MEN -- Rom 9:16-17 -- Pharaoh didn't "decide" to continue the imprisonment of ISRAEL... GOD decided that he would continue their imprisonment... MOSES didn't "decide" to ask they be FREED... GOD decided that he would ask...

It can be said that in the notation I just presented, that PHARAOH was RAISED by GOD to Glorify His name in the Earth... that JUDAS was just "as raised", and just as much a part of "Glorification" of God as was PHARAOH...  :dontknow:

The WHOLE POINT being that MEN do NOT "decide" any portion, or indeed, the moment of DELIVERANCE... GOD alone "decides" ALL these things.

This is WHY JESUS clearly stated that He did not KNOW the day or hour of His return... for only GOD decides that moment, and no man, including CHRIST, shall know of it.

The betrayer could of been any of the disciples, but Judas was the one who decided to do it, by exchanging him for 30 pieces of " shiekels' of silver he also decided to betray Jesus with a kiss.

I completely disagree with this... "could have been" is something left to random chance, and is no more PERFECTLY foundational than is the "theory of Evolution" for life...

Those who are CHOSEN have had faith AUTHORED in them, and CHRIST KEEPS them from FALLING...

If one of FAITH, "falls" (which JUDAS "did"), then CHRIST (the WORD) CHOSE and decided that he should "fall", for He is the KEEPER of FAITH -- Jude 24

JESUS was not "waiting" to see WHO might "choose" to do this?  He most certainly KNEW who was going to do it! :nod:

JUDAS did not have a "choice" in this matter... no more than PETER had a "choice" in being called "satan" or PAUL got slapped with blindness...

That which comes forth from the mouth of CHRIST is UNCHANGING and CANNOT be altered ("could've been any of the disciples") --- for it is the totally EXACT, PERFECT, COMPLETE, and WONDERFUL WORD of GOD Himself.

JUDAS was FULFILLING EXACTLY what was WRITTEN specifically about HIM, for HE was the one whichFULLFILLED the BETRAYAL, no other... 

Though JUDAS is not "named by name" in the OT as the betrayer of CHRIST... it IS noted the betrayal would come at the hands of a TRUSTED FRIEND --  Psalm 41:9 -- John 13:18

The "name" JESUS CHRIST is not even "found" in the OT...   :Chinscratch:

The fulfillment of HOLY PERFECTION is not within the ability of SINFUL MEN to perform... Only by the DIRECTION of GOD, shall MAN "fulfill" Scripture which is the WORD of GOD -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24

Part of the Sacrifice of CHRIST was dependent upon a CERTAIN MAN doing a CERTAIN THING at a CERTAIN TIME... this was not just something "idea" that  just happened to "occur" to JUDAS... It was WRITTEN and had to be DONE EXACTLY as was WRITTEN... not because "Judas" decided to fink on CHRIST.

So according to the universalist position, or at least from my point of view as an universalist, it would be better for him to be cast into the sea and out of sight, not to escape eternal hell, as some Christians interpret, but because of the eternal shame he will have to endure, when he is raised from the dead and becomes face to face with the risen Jesus Christ. A far cry from the meek and lowly Jesus he was accustomed to when he was upon the Earth as a disciple.

Due to his shame for what he has done im not sure that Judas will desire to be a partaker of Christs sacrifice and so may settle for eternal death.

FIRST --- Please, bro I don't mean to be (too) sarcastic, but... Is that what YOU would do?  "Choose" eternal death?  :laughing7:

JUDAS has already faced his shame...

And the TRUTH is, that without JUDAS or someone JUST like him (a TRUSTED FRIEND), NONE of us would be saved!  :sigh:


SECOND --- there IS no "eternal hell"... there isn't even a "temporary" one... HELL is a teaching of FEAR... FEAR has no part in LOVE and is CAST OUT by it -- 1 John 4:18


THIRD --- CHRIST tasted DEATH for every man... including JUDAS... and no man "settles" for anything.


ALL MEN ..."do"... as is written OF THEM, from the end of this realm to its beginning -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- which are (end & beginning), the SAME THING -- Rev 1:8

Isaiah 46:10 -- DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, [the things] that are NOT [yet] DONE... saying MY COUNSEL shall stand... [the WORD] and I WILL DO ...all MY pleasure

How many things (before the beginning) were "NOT done"?  Is it not EVERY "THING"?  :dunno:

This Scripture is very CLEAR that GOD is the ONE, actually "DOING" -- ALL THESE THINGS... which is also clearly repeated in the NT --- Eph 1:11

 :afFro:  pEAce be untaya, new bro... :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #172 on: June 25, 2010, 12:46:20 AM »
willieH: Hi thinktank...  :happygrin:

You don't know me well (been here for 8yrs or so), so let me preface myself... I speak bluntly.  I do not mean any harm or disprespect in my words... just flat-out tell it like it is...  :winkgrin:

 :bgdance: To begin with, (though it is not popular), I am on the JUDAS cheerleading team...  :laughing7:  ...what he did was certainly not enviable... but definitely a MOST NECESSARY action, that was part of the plan to benefit us all!

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I say...  :thumbsup:  But know that it shall be accompanied by REASON...  :dbook: :declare:

Jesus says these things must be to fullfill scripture

If SCRIPTURE was being FULFILLED (which it was), then JUDAS was the one which the WORD had already indicated... and had no "choice" to alter what was already noted by the WORD.

Not ONE element of the life of CHRIST was left up to "chance" or the "decisions" of men.

Scripture is NEVER on the -- "let's wait & see what men decide to do" program, or -- is NEVER based on "which disciple decided to do this or that"...

It is an EXACT and PERFECT notation of what WILL occur, within the doings of MEN -- Rom 9:16-17 -- Pharaoh didn't "decide" to continue the imprisonment of ISRAEL... GOD decided that he would continue their imprisonment... MOSES didn't "decide" to ask they be FREED... GOD decided that he would ask...

It can be said that in the notation I just presented, that PHARAOH was RAISED by GOD to Glorify His name in the Earth... that JUDAS was just "as raised", and just as much a part of "Glorification" of God as was PHARAOH...  :dontknow:

The WHOLE POINT being that MEN do NOT "decide" any portion, or indeed, the moment of DELIVERANCE... GOD alone "decides" ALL these things.

This is WHY JESUS clearly stated that He did not KNOW the day or hour of His return... for only GOD decides that moment, and no man, including CHRIST, shall know of it.

The betrayer could of been any of the disciples, but Judas was the one who decided to do it, by exchanging him for 30 pieces of " shiekels' of silver he also decided to betray Jesus with a kiss.

I completely disagree with this... "could have been" is something left to random chance, and is no more PERFECTLY foundational than is the "theory of Evolution" for life...

Those who are CHOSEN have had faith AUTHORED in them, and CHRIST KEEPS them from FALLING...

If one of FAITH, "falls" (which JUDAS "did"), then CHRIST (the WORD) CHOSE and decided that he should "fall", for He is the KEEPER of FAITH -- Jude 24

JESUS was not "waiting" to see WHO might "choose" to do this?  He most certainly KNEW who was going to do it! :nod:

JUDAS did not have a "choice" in this matter... no more than PETER had a "choice" in being called "satan" or PAUL got slapped with blindness...

That which comes forth from the mouth of CHRIST is UNCHANGING and CANNOT be altered ("could've been any of the disciples") --- for it is the totally EXACT, PERFECT, COMPLETE, and WONDERFUL WORD of GOD Himself.

JUDAS was FULFILLING EXACTLY what was WRITTEN specifically about HIM, for HE was the one whichFULLFILLED the BETRAYAL, no other... 

Though JUDAS is not "named by name" in the OT as the betrayer of CHRIST... it IS noted the betrayal would come at the hands of a TRUSTED FRIEND --  Psalm 41:9 -- John 13:18

The "name" JESUS CHRIST is not even "found" in the OT...   :Chinscratch:

The fulfillment of HOLY PERFECTION is not within the ability of SINFUL MEN to perform... Only by the DIRECTION of GOD, shall MAN "fulfill" Scripture which is the WORD of GOD -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24

Part of the Sacrifice of CHRIST was dependent upon a CERTAIN MAN doing a CERTAIN THING at a CERTAIN TIME... this was not just something "idea" that  just happened to "occur" to JUDAS... It was WRITTEN and had to be DONE EXACTLY as was WRITTEN... not because "Judas" decided to fink on CHRIST.

So according to the universalist position, or at least from my point of view as an universalist, it would be better for him to be cast into the sea and out of sight, not to escape eternal hell, as some Christians interpret, but because of the eternal shame he will have to endure, when he is raised from the dead and becomes face to face with the risen Jesus Christ. A far cry from the meek and lowly Jesus he was accustomed to when he was upon the Earth as a disciple.

Due to his shame for what he has done im not sure that Judas will desire to be a partaker of Christs sacrifice and so may settle for eternal death.

FIRST --- Please, bro I don't mean to be (too) sarcastic, but... Is that what YOU would do?  "Choose" eternal death?  :laughing7:

JUDAS has already faced his shame...

And the TRUTH is, that without JUDAS or someone JUST like him (a TRUSTED FRIEND), NONE of us would be saved!  :sigh:


SECOND --- there IS no "eternal hell"... there isn't even a "temporary" one... HELL is a teaching of FEAR... FEAR has no part in LOVE and is CAST OUT by it -- 1 John 4:18


THIRD --- CHRIST tasted DEATH for every man... including JUDAS... and no man "settles" for anything.


ALL MEN ..."do"... as is written OF THEM, from the end of this realm to its beginning -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- which are (end & beginning), the SAME THING -- Rev 1:8

Isaiah 46:10 -- DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, [the things] that are NOT [yet] DONE... saying MY COUNSEL shall stand... [the WORD] and I WILL DO ...all MY pleasure

How many things (before the beginning) were "NOT done"?  Is it not EVERY "THING"?  :dunno:

This Scripture is very CLEAR that GOD is the ONE, actually "DOING" -- ALL THESE THINGS... which is also clearly repeated in the NT --- Eph 1:11

 :afFro:  pEAce be untaya, new bro... :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Hello willie, thanks for the reply. What you said is true and scriptural, but still doesn't answer the question as to why Jesus , who is the truth, way and life said ' better for that man not to be born'
which is why I said maybe Judas would prefer eternal death if Truth himself said this. But if there is another truth to this I will welcome it.

I also think that God can set up events so that he is not limited by a man, namely Judas. But rather simply states that a familiar friend would betray him with a kiss. Jesus had lots of friends and any one of them could have done what Judas did, in fact it didn't even have to be one of the 12 that Jesus choose, unless I have missed something. So maybe Jesus did not expect one of his 12 to betray him.
Please tell me, if there's a scripture that says it must be one of the 12.
To me life is an open book, although some events must happen, such as the birth of Christ, other events are down to mans choices and that's one reason why the world we live in is full of destruction, God's will is that we prosper and be in good health, but mans sinfull living makes this difficult.

Online micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #173 on: June 25, 2010, 01:53:06 AM »
Joh 17:12  when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #174 on: June 25, 2010, 05:08:50 AM »
willieH: Hi Thinktank...  :cloud9:

Thank you for your answers (btw... I used color, CAPS and other things as emphasis, so please dont be offended by my use of them!  :mblush:)

Hello willie, thanks for the reply. What you said is true and scriptural, but still doesn't answer the question as to why Jesus , who is the truth, way and life said ' better for that man not to be born'
which is why I said maybe Judas would prefer eternal death if Truth himself said this. But if there is another truth to this I will welcome it.

I have already addressed this earlier in this discussion in REPLY #57:

willieH: Hi UC...  :happygrin:

I still do not understand why the scripture says it would be better if Judas had not been born.

It does NOT say this... this is what YOU understand it to say...

This text is much like the one in which JESUS spoke about being "in PARADISE", to the thief... and like that passage, this one appears to be just as MISUNDERSTOOD...

JESUS told the thief that HE WOULD be in paradise, and that announcement came upon the day of their deaths, however NEITHER of them would be IN PARADISE on THAT DAY... JESUS had yet to spend his own prophesied, 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

Though I am not entirely convinced, the following makes the most sense...

The text in question follows, and keep in mind that the references very possibly meant (where I have place brackets):

Mark 14:21 -- The Son of man indeed goeth as it is written of Him!  but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! [JUDAS] good were it for that man [JESUS] if he [JUDAS] had never been born....

Why would GOD declare such a fate for JUDAS?  What reason is found in this particular man which was NECESSARY for the plan to be realized, that GOD should CONDEMN Judas for doing what was NECESSARY?  That is UNREASONABLE...

What makes sense, is that had JUDAS never been born, it would've been better for JESUS...

The preceeding words note that JESUS must go forth and DO that which was WRITTEN of Him -- "the Son of man indeed GOETH as IT IS WRITTEN of HIM" -- which was NOT a desireable pathway at all... But the great FAITH of CHRIST, carried Him forth faithfully to what was WRITTEN of Him... forsaking His own feelings which the words contained in saying "good were it for that man [JESUS/Son of man], that he [JUDAS] had never been BORN"... (to BETRAY Him)...  :dontknow:

JESUS knew well before the betrayal, his pathway which CONTAINED the BETRAYAL, ...and HIS DEATH, and had expressed it elsewhere, well PRIOR to the betrayal -- Matt 16:21-23 -- and was certainly NOT looking forward to the experience, as He asked IF POSSIBLE for the "cup to pass" -- Matt 26:39 -- right after this verse -- Matt 26:24 -- under discussion concerning JUDAS...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I also think that God can set up events so that he is not limited by a man, namely Judas. But rather simply states that a familiar friend would betray him with a kiss. Jesus had lots of friends and any one of them could have done what Judas did, in fact it didn't even have to be one of the 12 that Jesus choose, unless I have missed something. So maybe Jesus did not expect one of his 12 to betray him.

No offense bro... but this whole portion amounts to nothing but an unfounded and SPECULATIVE -- IMAGINARY scenario...

JUDAS was IN FACT, the one who DID this in REALITY, ...and there is NEVER VARIATION in both the MANIFESTATION of any part of PROPHECY or its participants... which is WHY CHRIST was compelled to FULFILL prophecy to the LETTER...

Your above words are simply a product of FICTIONAL IMAGINATION, which supposes other possibilities, which IN FACT, did NOT happen... and there is no basis upon which to found that those possibilities ever even existed.

It is my position that just as the LAW of God was WRITTEN in Stone... that ALL THINGS are so WRITTEN... For the only instance that GOD wrote was IN STONE... and He is UNCHANGING... so whenever IF EVER, He writes... then this metaphor and reality is that which we have to draw upon... not our own imaginations...

Please tell me, if there's a scripture that says it must be one of the 12.

I do not need to do this, for the fact remains that it WAS one of the 12, therefore the WORD was MANIFEST according to its OWN DIRECTIVE DECLARATION of an EVENT that "had not yet been DONE" which was NOTED before ANYTHING in this realm had occured -- Isaiah 46:10 --

Because there are NO VARIATIONS in the WORD -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 -- and BECAUSE the WORD is that of which the "DECLARATION" noted in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- was COMPOSED, ...then the portion of the "DECLARATION" under discussion... had already noted that JUDAS would be he which would FULFILL the Prophecy of Scripture, for THAT is in FACT, what occured.

This was NOT according to SINNERS... rather was part of a HOLY and PERFECT agenda, which was DECLARED by YHVH God...

Again, you are where you are with such things, and it is not my intention to demean you in any way...  :friendstu:

You are welcome to agree or disagree with any and all of my findings if you so choose... however...  There is NO Biblical foundation whatsoever for the observation of "CHANCE" as the agenda we are upon --- or that GOD is following along,  DEALING with the "choices" and "agenda" of MAN by "working around us" and our amiss workings... :mnah:

We are ALL upon His ALMIGHTY AGENDA, and are about following the pathways HE directs -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- and HIS plan for each of us, ...not the reverse...  :nod:

Such extremely IMPORTANT facets as these ("WHO IN PARTICULAR", betrayed the Savior) are hardly to be compared as "according to chance" to a GOD which busily and EXACTLY --- "counts the hairs on our heads" or that "notices even the DEATH of one of innumerable Sparrows" -- Matt 10:29-30 -- not to mention that His detailed and PERFECT agenda not only keeps every STAR burning in its place, but He NAMES each one as well!! -- Psalm 147:4

This does not sound to me like a GOD which is very interested in the DEATH of each "sparrow" --- is somehow completely disinterested in who might be the person to bring forth the DEATH of His ONLY Begotten Son?? ...Would You be as disinterested?  If you are honest (and I assume you are), ...I really don't think that would be the case bro...

I truly cannot speak for YOU, ...but if my ONLY SON... was going to be MURDERED... the details of said proposed "murder" would be of IMMENSE interest to me.  :dontknow:

To me life is an open book, although some events must happen, such as the birth of Christ, other events are down to mans choices and that's one reason why the world we live in is full of destruction, God's will is that we prosper and be in good health, but mans sinfull living makes this difficult.

thinktank... "to me life is an open book" is contrary to GOD working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- as well as CONTRARY to the Declaration of this realm as noted in -- Isaiah 46:10 and Rom 4:17

You are welcome to embrace that --- "to me life is an open book", but the Scriptures do not bear this out to be the TRUTH (as far as I have found)...

If this is so...

(1)  please note where in Scripture it proposes that --- "life is an open book"...

(2)  As well as where it is noted in Scripture that --- "some events must happen, such as the birth of Christ, other events are down to mans choices"

I'll wait upon your answer... that is, if in truth these things ARE supported in the WORD and you DO have foundation for them in the WORD...  

However, ...If you cannot produce Scripture which founds these ideas, then they are "extra-biblical" in origin... Whether they are your ideas or someone else's ideas.

pEACe  :HeartThrob:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 08:35:11 PM by willieH »