Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 53780 times)

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Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #100 on: March 24, 2010, 09:56:03 PM »
willieH: Hello to all... :hithere:

The verses (just below) have been quoted as support for the idea the JUDAS had [completely] "received" his "portion" of the ministry, and is therefore complete and ended, and supposes this is ALL he shall "receive" (no longer one of the FOUNDATIONAL 12 Apostles):

Quote
Acts 1:16-17  "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

   17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."

This is the KJV translation of those verses:

Acts 16-17 -- Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning JUDAS, which was guide to them that took JESUS... for he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry...

The PART of the ministry in which JUDAS partook, as with JESUS was an EARTHLY ministry (approximately 3-3.5 YEARS in duration -- which is a substancial amount of time spent)...

JESUS' "ministry" is much more than his "earthly ministry"... and I believe the same shall be counted of JUDAS... who IS one of the FOUNDATIONAL Apostles, which JESUS Himself addressed as has already been noted in this thread --- Luke 22:28-30

Are we not the continuing "ministers" of CHRIST, who... in the stead of those gone before, are serving (ministering) the GOSPEL of God unto the WORLD?  :dontknow:

Futhermore... Here is something to consider as we ponder, concerning JUDAS:

It is written in the Parables of CHRIST, that the LOST SON "recieved" his PORTION [part], then WASTED it... was that the END of it?  Or (despite the SELFISH arguement of the ELDER SON that he was undeserving of further from the Father) was there MUCH MORE, in store for this "Lost Son"?  Read for yourself -- Luke 15:11-32

Guess in the end, we are all welcome to our individual observations, ...but NOTHING can REMOVE the FACT...  that JUDAS was present to HEAR the address which CHRIST delivered in -- Luke 22:28-30 -- NOT "Matthais"...

Luke 22:14 notes that He "sat down, and the TWELVE APOSTLES with Him (no one else)... JUDAS partook of this, last "supper"... (which did NOT INCLUDE -- Matthias)...  and Luke 22:28 notes "YE [the 12 present] are THEY which have continued WITH ME, in My TEMPTATIONS"...

It's all there... PLAINLY stated...  let him that hath EARS, ...Hear.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #101 on: March 25, 2010, 05:39:22 PM »
Acts 1:24-26 (New International Version)
24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

see? its all clear there

do you really think God would let a traitor sit on a throne next to Him to judge His righteous?



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #102 on: March 25, 2010, 06:08:19 PM »
see? its all clear there
For you. Not for me. :winkgrin:
The verse only states he was added to the apostles on earth.
I doesn't say he replaces Judas as a judge.

Quote
do you really think God would let a traitor sit on a throne next to Him to judge His righteous?
No. But it's not clear Judas is a traitor.
- Traitor is one of the several possible translations.
- Jesus promised Judas he would be judge.
- To that promise was added that they (12) had followed Jesus his whole ministry. Matthias didn't.
- 30 pieces of silver sounds more symbolic than the best deal Judas could have made.
- The greeting of Jesus and the kiss.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #103 on: March 25, 2010, 10:37:05 PM »
Acts 1:16"Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.- KJV

Acts 1:16"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." -NASB

(Both NASB and KJV were translated out of the same manuscripts and the need for the NASB was because the KJV Ancient Elizabethean was considered an obsolete language and thus the NASB was comissioned. The evolution of the manuscripts went from KJV, to the NewKJV and then finally the NASB.

They are the same version, just the updated language.)

Even the KJV says the same thing, "he HAD obtained PART of this ministry." Judas had- past tense, he at one time was included....obtained part- already had his part but now is not part of that specific ministry.

It's straight forward, Judas was an apostle and lost his part, he had a part but lost it. Paul was chosen by Jesus to replace him...

Ephesians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,"

again what about-

Matthew 19:27 "Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 "But many who are first will be last; and the last, first."

So then others recieve many times more than the apostles?

Of course not for we all receive an equal share.

1 Corinthians 6:1 "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? 2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?"

This whole "receiving a part in the judgement field" is highly overvalued, for we all get the same part.




Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #104 on: March 25, 2010, 11:55:52 PM »
Acts 1:24-26 (New International Version)
24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

see? its all clear there

do you really think God would let a traitor sit on a throne next to Him to judge His righteous?

The "judgment" portion suggested is a whole other discussion... as to what it is... but concerning the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE...

I Don't have to "think" anything... :mnah:

ALL men are "traitors" to GOD... ALL men have BETRAYED the Savior and each of us has our own individual part, in which resulted in HIS crucifixtion for us.  :dontknow:

Let him that is WITHOUT SIN (which is "BETRAYAL" to the COMMAND of GOD, and which "betrayal" resulted in the DEATH of JESUS CHRIST), ...cast the 1st stone at the "traitor", ...JUDAS...   :sigh:

No matter what "translation" one procures in hopes that their vision be manifest, ...the fact remains that JUDAS was not only CHOSEN by the CHRIST as an Apostle, and had ministered for 3.5 YEARS WITH Him, ...but was also present at this address: Luke 22:28-30

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Syndicated

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2010, 02:49:14 AM »
I understand the part about mankind betraying God, hence being able to be called 'Traitors', however...

Quote
Let him that is WITHOUT SIN (which is "BETRAYAL" to the COMMAND of GOD, and which "betrayal" resulted in the DEATH of JESUS CHRIST), ...cast the 1st stone at the "traitor", ...JUDAS...

I thought that Jesus stated this to the crowds that were about to stone an adultress woman, not at Judas... I don't understand how that statement can be made in reference to Judas. 

Also, I understood that the phrase 'Without Sin' meant being blameless in ANY aspect, not just to betray the command of God.

Can you clarify that for me?  I don't think I understand what it is you're trying to convey here.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2010, 05:43:14 AM »
Our flesh itself, inherited from Adam — sin.
For in Adam, all have sinned.
It is from ourselves that we our redeemed in Christ.
Not, per se what we have done, but — what we are not.
However; What we are, in Christ, is a new creation, holy and blameless before the Lord.
Jesus, your Name be praised on high.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2010, 05:50:20 AM »


Sweet release..................For You alone be glorified!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bK4jdZ6nTU&feature=related

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2010, 07:43:26 AM »
Quote
I understand the part about mankind betraying God, hence being able to be called 'Traitors', however...

Betrayal?

My daughter hasn't betrayed God. To betray someone is to first make an agreement with them, then go back on that agreement, that trust. Many people have never entered into an agreement with God. My daughter who is ten has never made an agreement with God, never backed out or returned on the trust.

In order to betray you have to have something to betray! Did she inherit sin, yes, but she isn't a betrayer.

That whole idea that one sin equals them all is simply not true. Myself, I have never murdered, have you? Have you killed a person? I haven't, I'm not a murderer. Just because I have sin doesn't make me a murderer.

It's flawed, the whole subtitution by guilt idea.

Sin passed to all mankind, not betrayal passed to all mankind.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2010, 07:49:23 AM »
Yes Dallas, everything Adam has done, you and your daughter have done, and your daughters, daughters have done.
That is our fleshly heritage.
Sin inhabits all flesh.
In Adam...
In Christ...

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2010, 10:57:30 AM »
Paul was chosen by Jesus to replace him...
Paul was never chosen as apostle by anyone...the claim to apostle is all his own...the newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias.
if you we read the Revelation of Jesus Christ to his apostle John, the last book of the Bible to be written, Paul was already dead, we see that there is STILL only 12 apostles...not 13 or 14...11 original ones plus Matthias

if we look at the conditions necessary to be an apostle, even John the Babtist would not have qualified as he was not present with the Lord during his earthly ministry...that was a condition for anyone to be chosen in place of Judas...

further, the 12 apostles is also to become the judges of Israel and the nations...Jesus handpicked them, he never picked Paul...and he obviously didn't change his mind after his ressurrection, for according to the books of the Homelies where we read about the acts of the apostles in a historic sense and therefore not included in the Bible, Jesus taught them for still a year AFTER his ressurection...Paul was not included with the 12 again

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #111 on: March 26, 2010, 11:40:20 AM »
if we look at the conditions necessary to be an apostle,
NoName,
Can you list those conditions?
Quote
even John the Babtist would not have qualified as he was not present with the Lord during his earthly ministry
Was Matthias present? Everybody can follow Jesus outdoors; but what about the private teaching Jesus gave to the 12? Was Matthias present there too?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #112 on: March 26, 2010, 12:53:45 PM »
The Appointing of the Twelve Apostles
 13Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
 12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city. 13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
 15In those days Peter stood up among the believers[c] (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

 18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

 20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
   " 'May his place be deserted;
      let there be no one to dwell in it,'[d] and,
   " 'May another take his place of leadership.'[e] 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


Conditions stated above in bold
all these conditions would exclude Paul, even John the baptist (who has been called the greatest prophet ever by Jesus) as he had not "been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" and didn't witness the ressurection.

we must never loose sight of the fact that the apostles were the hand picked messengers of Christ, picked from 100s of true disciples which followed Jesus everywhere he went...apostle is "apostolos" in Greek which means "messenger"...they were not allowed to step out of this vocation, and their message was to share the Gospel of Salvation verbatim with the people, the message that Jesus brought to earth

Jesus also made it very clear that the messenger is not greater than he who sends him to give the message...in the Bible you'll find the books which were written by some of the apostles, that they NEVER stray from the Gospel message of Jesus

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 12:57:13 PM by noname »

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #113 on: March 26, 2010, 04:18:30 PM »

 Hi Noname ,
 This is where we will disagree   
  because I truly believe in my heart   Saul/ Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ  to be the new apostle  , not the 13th
 but the one born out of due time And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 
 
  Judas  had not killed himself yet ....

 1Cr 15:6   After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 

 1Cr 15:7   After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles


 1Cr 15:8   And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 

 1Cr 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
 
 Therefore whether [it were] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
 
  I or they   this is not the main concern , its that they ALL DID  included Paul
  a chosen vessel that would suffer many  things  for  JESUS names  sake
 
 personally  many of Pauls writings / his body of works    reveal mysteries   long hidden  from our eyes   
 and do very much   coincide and AGREE  with every thing Jesus taught
 and reveals Jesus Christ and the works of the Holy Spirit even further
 
   the last thing   we should fo is  argue  over the bodies of works and whos is whos  ,,  its all Jesus Christ / BODY and its made  ALIVE  through the SPIRIT OF HOLY Father     , this grace and mercy on us all
 
   even Peter  denied Christ  betrayed   Jesus  3 times  as Judas did
  and What did Jesus say to Peter ?
Peter did not even know  it was him !   Jesus had come to see them after His death in His glorified body  and spoke to them
its in John 21  NLT
 '12 "Now come and have some breakfast!" Jesus said. None of the disciples dared to ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.

13 Then Jesus served them the bread and the fish. 14 This was the third time Jesus had appeared to his disciples since he had been raised from the dead.
 15 After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?"

   "Yes, Lord," Peter replied, "you know I love you."

   "Then feed my lambs," Jesus told him.

 16 Jesus repeated the question: "Simon son of John, do you love me?"

   "Yes, Lord," Peter said, "you know I love you."

   "Then take care of my sheep," Jesus said.

 17 A third time he asked him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"

   Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you."

   Jesus said, "Then feed my sheep.

 18 "I tell you the truth, when you were young, you were able to do as you liked; you dressed yourself and went wherever you wanted to go. But when you are old, you will stretch out your hands,

and others will dress you and take you where you don't want to go."

19 Jesus said this to let him know by what kind of death he would glorify God. Then Jesus told him, "Follow me."


 20 Peter turned around and saw behind them the disciple Jesus loved—the one who had leaned over to Jesus during supper and asked, "Lord, who will betray you?" 21 Peter asked Jesus, "What about him, Lord?"

 22 Jesus replied, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? As for you, follow me."
 
 23 So the rumor spread among the community of believers that this disciple wouldn't die. But that isn't what Jesus said at all. He only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
 24 This disciple is the one who testifies to these events and has recorded them here. And we know that his account of these things is accurate.

 25 Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

even Peter  was told by Jesus of his betrayal and yet he  did not know at the time
 
  Saul/ Paul  on the road to Damascus  was also betraying Jesus  Body / Church that  was being made alive   by Christ the head 
 and  did not know till Jesus  blinded him  with TRUTH !
 
  fulfilling this very prophecy  in Paul / saul from the start being Judged by Jesus    and there are many more  prophecies being fulfilled by Jesus  in Paul Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 


 Jhn 8:16   And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 
 now we see how Jesus judges hearts and how he changes them   
causing the  seeing  to be blind and the blind to SEE
 

Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.  

Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
 1 Meanwhile, Saul was uttering threats with every breath and was eager to kill the Lord's followers. So he went to the high priest. 2 He requested letters addressed to the synagogues in Damascus, asking for their cooperation in the arrest of any followers of the Way he found there. He wanted to bring them—both men and women—back to Jerusalem in chains.
 3 As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?"

 5 "Who are you, lord?" Saul asked.

   And the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting! 6 Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

 7 The men with Saul stood speechless, for they heard the sound of someone's voice but saw no one!

8 Saul picked himself up off the ground, but when he opened his eyes he was blind. So his companions led him by the hand to Damascus. 9 He remained there blind for three days and did not eat or drink.

 10 Now there was a believer in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord spoke to him in a vision, calling, "Ananias!"

   "Yes, Lord!" he replied.

 11 The Lord said, "Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas. When you get there, ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying to me right now. 12 I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying hands on him so he can see again."

 13 "But Lord," exclaimed Ananias, "I've heard many people talk about the terrible things this man has done to the believers in Jerusalem! 14 And he is authorized by the leading priests to arrest everyone who calls upon your name."

 15 But the Lord said, "Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake."


17 So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Instantly something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized. 19 Afterward he ate some food and regained his strength.

 spiritual food no doubt !   the new man  in Christ the work of the Holy Spirit and heavenly Father   has   declared  His Kingdom come and will be done on the earth  and it is in heaven
 
   no man can change my mind on this
  just the Holy Spirit can  as
  this is truth  settled within already  ....  :cloud9:
Jesus is the reward  !!

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #114 on: March 26, 2010, 05:17:51 PM »
hi Rosered,
you are free to believe what has been revealed to you...
I however know that I'm not alone in saying that Paul was not an appointed apostle by Jesus Christ...except for himself saying so...
I am in agreement with all of the post apostolic church leaders before Roman Catholosysm as well as the first church of Jerusalem as well as ALL of the churches in Asia minor (the 7 churches of Revelation)...at Ephesus Paul was tried as a heretic and therefore rejected....Jesus even praises the church of the Ephesians in Revelation for trying "those who claimed to be apostles but are not" and rejecting them...only Paul and two of his relatives, which he also called apostles made those claims to the Ephesians.

If you'd like to study more, read Tertullian's "Against Marcion"
Marcion already claimed in the early 100s that only Paul's gospel was the real one
Tertullian in 5 books totally floors his arguments
Also, see what Clement and Polycarp had to say about his teachings
Even the reformers, Luther and Tyndale, came to this conclusion eventually that Paul's claim for being an apostle cam eonly from himself
Jesus said that if He was testifying about Himself, His testimony would not be true nor acceptable in the eyes of God...so Paul's own claims of being an apostle are therefore null and void

when Paul says "the Lord said", it is only his own witness that testifies to this...when Peter says "the Lord said", He quotes Jesus verbatim...Paul was never taught by Jesus, there is NO proof except for his own word

I will give you the example of Balaam, who was a prophet of God but lost his title as he became apostate...
the same thing happened with Paul...at first he was accepted by the church (but NEVER as an apostle) but a co-worker
He was later in direct opposition to the real apostles, especially Peter and James (just read Corinthians and you'll see that he makes scathing remarks against them calling them "super-apostles" in a derogatory way while boasting about himself as being only a humble servant)

if you can find one instance in the Bible where Paul's appointment as apostle was witnessed by two credible witnesses (a requirement for such matters), or where he is called an apostle by any other real apostle or being ordained by the mother church in Jerusalem (like Matthias was) , I will reconsider my earlier statements
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 05:27:47 PM by noname »

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2010, 05:49:19 PM »
 
  I will read that  No name ,   but I thought i just did  prove Jesus  by the Spirit of Prophecy   SPOKE  that Paul was the chosen vessel to  bear Jesus name to the Gentiles and Jews alike ??  :sigh:
 
  so Ananias  vision was a false one to eh ?
 
 
Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord. And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,  


 Act 9:12   And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.  


 Act 9:13   Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:  


 Act 9:14   And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name

 they way i see it  , we are all in the house of Judas / Judah FIRST , its divided 
 in to the Body of Christ / the living WORD ...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 05:57:40 PM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #116 on: March 26, 2010, 07:59:12 PM »
Quote
Paul was never chosen as apostle by anyone...the claim to apostle is all his own...the newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias.

First, if we denounce Paul's testimony of what what he claims to be we must also denounce his teachings, because if he claims to be an apostle but isn't an apostle then he is a liar and untrustworthy and thus his writtings are uncreditable.

So if Paul isn't an apostle then his books must likewise be excluded.

Second;

Quote
the newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias

This was not God, this was Peter's idea, and then they threw dice. If I gather a group of friends and say God knows the hearts of us, let us throw dice and whoever they fall upon by number then they will be the chosen leaders. That's not God that's me throwing dice.

If Matthias fulfilled this role then Paul was uneeded. However there is an example of this previously laid out in scripture. Abraham and Sarah. God told them that He would give them a child, so they supposed that if Abraham lay with Hagar, Sarah's maid, that through her God would fulfill His promise. They themselves tried to fulfill the promise of God, Peter and his group were no different. They knew the position of apostle needed to be filled and supposed they could throw lots to make it happen.

Even though Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, wasn't the promised child he was still greatly blessed, but it was through Issac that God progressed His promise through.

Even though Matthias was brought in via works, Paul was the one God chose to work through.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2010, 10:22:07 AM »
Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?

I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day.   :bigGrin:
OTOH I can find no place where it's said there are only 12 judges...
12 tribes. 12 thrones, 12 gates, etc.
But not the number of judges. => Theoretically it can be 5, 12, 13 or 55 judges. (including Judas)?????
Often people always speak about "the 12". Obviously that's not the number of people that were always present.
Otherwise Matthias and Paul couldn't be considered

KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus. Doesn't that mean whenever we read something like: Jesus said to the 12. Jesus went to the 12. Etc there were always the 12 + Paul + Matthias?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

whome?

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2010, 12:41:43 PM »
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.

Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge a whole lot more than just the 12 tribes.

1 Corinthians 6:2 "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life?

Also see Rev. 3:21

Doesn't that mean whenever we read something like: Jesus said to the 12. Jesus went to the 12. Etc there were always the 12 + Paul + Matthias?

Not Paul, but it's clear to me that Matthias was with the 12 most the time [all of it according to Acts 1:21]. Which I will agree was a requirement to take the apostleship Judas once had.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2010, 09:39:58 AM »
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.

Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge
144.000?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #120 on: March 29, 2010, 10:27:25 AM »
First, if we denounce Paul's testimony of what what he claims to be we must also denounce his teachings, because if he claims to be an apostle but isn't an apostle then he is a liar and untrustworthy and thus his writtings are uncreditable.


So if Paul isn't an apostle then his books must likewise be excluded.
exactly...and that is the reason why all the churches in Asia minor rejected him...and still does to this day...the descendants of the apostolic churches still does, even to this day they reckon his writings as "edifying" at most

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Second;

Quote
the newly chosen apostle by God and the 11 to replace Judas was Matthias

This was not God, this was Peter's idea, and then they threw dice. If I gather a group of friends and say God knows the hearts of us, let us throw dice and whoever they fall upon by number then they will be the chosen leaders. That's not God that's me throwing dice.

please go read the Scriptures again...it was not by dice they chose, but by lot after praying to God to reveal this to the 11 apostles. God gave the apostles and ONLY the apostles the right to bind/loose things in heaven and earth.

It is senseless to continue arguing the case for or against Paul, as many before me has done this already...I can tell you however that I have found the "tares amongst the wheat", and it was difficult at first to let go of Paul's teachings by I've found numerous contradictions to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles (the 12 chosen not the self-appointed one)...but that is a choice I'm willing to take...if I say I'm a Christian, then I should follow Christs' teaching which came out the mouth of himself and his appointed apostles...I really do NOT need anything more

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2010, 10:34:06 AM »
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.

Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge a whole lot more than just the 12 tribes.

1 Corinthians 6:2 "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life?

Also see Rev. 3:21

Doesn't that mean whenever we read something like: Jesus said to the 12. Jesus went to the 12. Etc there were always the 12 + Paul + Matthias?

Not Paul, but it's clear to me that Matthias was with the 12 most the time [all of it according to Acts 1:21]. Which I will agree was a requirement to take the apostleship Judas once had.


yes, Paul said that in Corinthians...go find where Jesus said we'll judge the angels...or that any other than the 12 appointed apostles would judge Israel...

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2010, 12:23:24 PM »
One of the requirements to sit on the throne to judge was always being with Jesus.

Not so if we consider all of the New Testament. It would seem normal Christians will judge
144.000?

LOL, I have no idea on the number. It reads as if it could be all Christians.


yes, Paul said that in Corinthians...go find where Jesus said we'll judge the angels...or that any other than the 12 appointed apostles would judge Israel...

Pauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me. But it can be inferred from Jesus to. Here are some of the places; Rev. 3:21, Luke 22:30 (Judas was already gone here, see John 13:30),  Matt. 24:47, Matt. 19:28,29.

I can't even see how Luke 22:30 and Matt. 19:28 are being limited to the apostles since Acts 1:22,23 tell us that Matthias and Barsabas was there to.


noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2010, 01:20:57 PM »
Pauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me. But it can be inferred from Jesus to. Here are some of the places; Rev. 3:21, Luke 22:30 (Judas was already gone here, see John 13:30),  Matt. 24:47, Matt. 19:28,29.

I can't even see how Luke 22:30 and Matt. 19:28 are being limited to the apostles since Acts 1:22,23 tell us that Matthias and Barsabas was there to.


Unsure about Luke 22:30?
Luke 22:14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.

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Pauls words are scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16) and are good enough for me.
first, 2 Peter is generally accepted amongst most scholars to be a "pseudograph", ie a book written after it was claimed to be, in other words, not in Peter's time and not by him...this book has been disputed since the early days of Christianity

second, do you know the requirements for adding to Scripture?
it must be done by a true prophet who's prophecies have been tested.

"Only a true prophet from God can add text to the Bible. (Deut. 18:15.) The Bible itself lays out the tests for such authorized additions
to the Bible. These tests are spelled out in Deuteronomy chs. 4, 12, 13 & 18. A key test is that no prophet could be legitimate who tried to "diminish" (subtract) any command previously given. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32 (quoted in inset).) This was true even if they had "sign and wonders that came to pass." (Deut.13:1-5.) This is reiterated in Isaiah 8:20.

example - Paul's Words Are Not Always Prescient:

Paul Predicts Loss of Life
Acts 27:10
[A]nd said unto them, Sirs, I perceive (theoreo, perceive with the eyes, discern) that the voyage will be with injury and much loss, not only
of the lading and the ship, but also of our lives
.

Paul Predicts No Loss of Life
Acts 27:22-24
(22) And now I exhort you to be of good cheer; for there shall be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. (23) For there stood by me this night an angel of the God whose I am, whom also I serve, (24) saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must stand before Caesar: and lo, God hath granted thee all them that sail with thee.

in the passages above "prophet" Paul clearly contradicts himself

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2010, 06:12:53 PM »
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please go read the Scriptures again...it was not by dice they chose, but by lot after praying to God to reveal this to the 11 apostles.

What do you think casting lots is? It is the Hebrew equivelent of flipping a coin, rolling dice, drawing straws...in the old testament they used the Urim and Thummin to "cast lots" and they were nothing more than gem stones (Josephus jewish historian).

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It is senseless to continue arguing the case for or against Paul, as many before me has done this already...I can tell you however that I have found the "tares amongst the wheat", and it was difficult at first to let go of Paul's teachings by I've found numerous contradictions to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles (the 12 chosen not the self-appointed one)...but that is a choice I'm willing to take...if I say I'm a Christian, then I should follow Christs' teaching which came out the mouth of himself and his appointed apostles...I really do NOT need anything more

Guess you also have to denounce Peter also since Peter openly supports Paul and his teachings.

Passage 2 Peter 3:14-16 "14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,  15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


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I've found numerous contradictions to the teachings of Jesus

Where? Also where are you getting this info from?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:43:20 PM by Dallas »