Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 47645 times)

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Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2010, 03:17:47 AM »
Quote
the only sin that is unforgivable is to Blaspheme the Holy Shirit 
  do you think Judas is guilty of that ?

well, I can't really claim to know what that is, but Judas was always a shady character, a petty thief dipping into the till--surely, Jesus knew this about him.  Even though he is entered into by Satan at the supper, it's not like he had much character to begin with.

But I always felt sorry for him because I think he did realize at the end what he had done.  He understood and knew that he could not undo it--would have if he could.  It has always made me very sad.




3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

 4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

 5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


--Mat 27






  I know what you mean sis ,
 I too feel pity in his misery    , I do also feel that was a confession  of remorse and  repented  of this deed
 
 the example of him  suffering  great loss     but the scriptures had to come to pass sis , that is what  makes me think Jesus knew and would be Glorified in   Death because death would hold no power over Him ...
  John 13 ..  see how Jesus knew this before hand , He could have    slipped though  as He had done many times   before to escape the Jews   that desired to kill him and yet this was said ....   ESV

What you do , do it quickly ..
 28Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him.

 29Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor. 30So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.

 31When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him.  
32If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once.

 
 Judas is a type of son of perdition ..

 
 Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem;
 
 insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
 
 

Offline Pierac

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2010, 03:42:42 AM »
I have temporary locked this topic!

Misunderstandings are occurring and feelings are possibly getting hurt. I may delete a few post to keep with the fruit of the Spirit, and then reopen the topic.

This is not personal, just moderating.    :thumbsup:

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2010, 09:06:17 AM »
Thanks Paul.  It appears the mod request was either overlooked or ignored.  There are probably some that would still like to continue to post in an appropriate manner should you decide to clean it up and reopen it.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Pierac

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2010, 12:18:20 AM »
Ok, were open for comments...

Please stay with the topic!

Paul

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2010, 12:19:36 AM »

 
  Thanks for opening this thread back up James and Paul / Pierac  :thumbsup:

and Molly , Sis ,thanks for the respectful ways you have  shared your thoughts and beliefs on this  subject  of Judas   it has been   enlighting  to ponder   all the points made on   Judas in the Word of God ..
 
 :HeartThrob:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2010, 01:12:39 AM »
Credit goes to Paul  :thumbsup:.

A few things I ran across and thought of today;

Jesus told THE TWELVE that it had been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom..(Luke 8:10)

Also, read this today in Luke 9  "Now when He had called together the Twelve, He gave them power and authority over all the demons and to cure diseases.  Then He dispatched them to proclaim God's Kingdom and to heal the weak [sick]....Now they went out and began going from village to village, spreading the Good Message and curing people everywhere."

And then there's this;  specifically verse 29, but given in context - does it relate to Judas at all?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Some things to think about...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2010, 01:26:46 AM »
 

 Yes it does  , helps alot !   Thanks James ........... :icon_flower:
 I do believe the Grace and Love and mercy of God  far superceeds
 anything imaginable in our minds to comprehend ! 
its by the Spirit of the Living God  that we can even speak of these things !  or even Know them!
 Awesome is our God ! :HeartThrob:

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2010, 02:27:05 AM »
Acts 1:16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

   17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."

   18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

   19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
         'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
         AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';
         and,
         'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.



Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2010, 02:46:32 AM »
Acts 1:16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

   17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."

   18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

   19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
         'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
         AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';
         and,
         'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.




  Hi Dallas I agree that Judas lost his   place  of office
 
  but I also feel that the son of perdition  /type of Judas 

  also will be saved as by fire ..per  written in
 I Cor 3
  could also  very well explain  Judas  end
it was His deeds / works that are  judged ..
 

  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 


 1Cr 3:12   Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 


 1Cr 3:13   Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
 1Cr 3:14   If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 


 1Cr 3:15   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 
 1Cr 3:16   Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 


 1Cr 3:17   If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are. 


 1Cr 3:18  Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 


 1Cr 3:19   For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness


 1Cr 3:20   And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 


 1Cr 3:21   Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 


 1Cr 3:22   Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 


 1Cr 3:23   And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's. 

  considering everything  said
  and written
 
  the loss and destruction of that man  yet he will be saved by the Fire
 
  considering  everything ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2010, 03:01:38 AM »
Yeah, I thought of that scripture Dallas.  I just wonder how deep that runs, i.e., as someone else said, does that [office] only pertain to the earthly ministry in which he was involved, or also have to do with the "afterlife"?  And bottom line, like rose said, I certainly believe he either will be or already is forgiven/restored.  If so, then restored to what?  Which brings us back to the 12 thrones, the name on the foundation, etc.

So my thoughts involve a) this life and its functions and then b) things following the resurrection/the next age(s).
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Pierac

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2010, 05:20:11 AM »

Let's see how Christ's type of ecclesiastical government on earth worked? Christ's rule is simple and it is NOT hierarchical.
"He that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. For whether is greater, he that sits at meat, or he that serves? is not he that sits at meat? but I [Jesus Christ] am among you as one that serves."  Luke 22:26–27

The word "minister" actually means "one who serves." God selects men and women to be servants to others, to serve the flock, not to be served by the lay people. The instructions of Christ show that the ministerial positions in the early Ekklesia such as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors," etc., (Ephesians 4:11) were functions for service. They were not aristocratic ranks.

This was demonstrated by the apostle Paul when he appeared among the Corinthians as one who was base (meek and humble), not as one who should be served by them (2 Corinthians 10:1). Ministers should not be dictatorial rulers of the flock.  Indeed, the apostle Paul scolded the Corinthians for allowing "super-fine apostles" (called "the very chiefest apostles" in 2 Corinthians 11:5; 12:11) to come into their midst and bring the Corinthian Christians into a form of bondage — into servility.

"For you suffer fools gladly, for you suffer, if a man bring you into bondage [you allow it], if a man devour you [you allow it], if a man take of you [you allow it], if a man exalt himself [you allow it], if a man smite you on the face [you allow it]." 2 Corinthians 11:19–20

These aristocratic men brandishing their supposed authority were Hebrews  (verse 22). They came into the midst of the Corinthians as superfine apostles (as men of rank and authority) and demanded that the Corinthians give full recognition to their exalted ranks that they believed they had.

The apostle Paul countered their attitude by telling the Corinthians they should not put up with such "false apostles, deceitful workers" (verse 13). When Paul lived among them or other Christian communities, he came exalting the members of the Ekklesia, not having the members exalting Paul. "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that you might be exalted" (verse 7). Paul was among them in humility and weakness, not as a superior overlord.


Paul

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2010, 05:01:46 PM »

 
  Thanks Guys
  for all your input
 
  I also believe  that everyone of the apostles pointed to and exalted Christ Jesus and the Heavenly Father  always

one of the things that stuck a a  cord
 
  was  betrayal  is a form
of trechery  and    beguilment
  his deed  is  not of love and  will be burned up  and suffer loss .. 
 
 if its not counted  or amounts to vanity /nothing  I do not know , God knows   I do Know Jesus was glorified  and His Father  was also  glorified  in this  kind of death one the Cross
 found this in the Bible definitons dictionary
 
 Betray
(From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

be-tra' (ramah; paradidomi): In the Old Testament only once (1 Chronicles 12:17). David warns those who had deserted to him from Saul: "If ye be come to betray me to mine adversaries .... the God of our fathers look thereon." The same Hebrew word is elsewhere translated "beguile" (Genesis 29:25; Joshua 9:22), "deceive" (1 Samuel 19:17; 1 Samuel 28:12; 2 Samuel 19:26; Proverbs 26:19; Lamentations 1:19).

In the New Testament, for paradidomi: 36 times, of the betrayal of Jesus Christ, and only 3 times besides (Matthew 24:10; Mark 13:12; Luke 21:16) of kinsmen delivering up one another to prosecution.


 In these three places the Revised Version (British and American) translates according to the more general meaning,

 "to deliver up," and also (in Matthew 17:22; Matthew 20:18; Matthew 26:16; Mark 14:10, Mark 14:21; Luke 22:4, Luke 22:6) where it refers to the delivering up of Jesus.

 The Revisers' idea was perhaps to retain "betray" only in direct references to Judas' act, but they have not strictly followed that rule.

 Judas' act was more than that of giving a person up to the authorities; he did it under circumstances of treachery which modified its character: (a) he took advantage of his intimate relation with Jesus Christ as a disciple to put Him in the hands of His enemies; (b) he did it stealthily by night, and (c) by a kiss, an act which professed affection and friendliness; (d) he did it for money, and (e) he knew that Jesus Christ was innocent of any crime (Matthew 27:4).
T. Rees



Read more: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/ID/1467/Betray.htm#ixzz0iuf4KhIt

 
 and as for the ranking  Paul /Pierac , that was a good point made
 
 the scriptures tells us our liberty / freedom  in Christ is to Love one another  when serving  one another is the  same as serving Christ
 
 

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
 
 
  the Law changed  as well as the priesthood    when Christ  took control
 
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 

 Hbr 7:13   For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 


 Hbr 7:14   For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 


 Hbr 7:15   And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 


 Hbr 7:16   Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.  

 
 Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.


1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
 

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
 


1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
  like  I said before , am considering everything written in the Word  on this  and everything  said on this thread by  everyone .
 
 and there is lots to consider when   thinking deeper  in the matter

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2010, 07:01:32 PM »
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
 and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
  is it not satan whom always betrays  Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other 
 satan or Jesus .............
I would assume satan would protect Jesus from getting caught.
From satan's pov every death for Jesus was fine but not a prophesy fulfilling death on the cross....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2010, 07:21:31 PM »
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
 and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
  is it not satan whom always betrays  Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other 
 satan or Jesus .............
I would assume satan would protect Jesus from getting caught.
From satan's pov every death for Jesus was fine but not a prophesy fulfilling death on the cross....
    can  not  see that WW sorry ?please explain  it for me  so I can , se your POV :mblush: 
 
   for me satan only has limited power over certain things  as God will permit
 
  take Job for instance      Job  was an example of how satan was given all that Job had  , but not his life
  the lesson for Job in all this was   even God had Jobs life and Job had to realize that   though all his misery and  nothing was in his own power
 

  God is in complete control  all the time and even over "time "  when that will be no more even  :icon_flower:
 
    mes longs for  that fulfillment  :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2010, 08:36:17 PM »
can  not  see that WW sorry ?please explain  it for me  so I can , se your POV :mblush:
I know there are many views on what satan actually is. For easy of explanation lests say it's a person that want to wreck Gods plan.
Satan started in Eden. When he tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit he "triggered death".
I assume that was a huge victory for satan. Then Jesus came to undo the damage. That damage could only be undone when Jesus died after all prophecies were fulfilled. One of them was that Jesus should be lifted up like the snake on a pole. So imo satan would try to stop at least one prophesy. Then he would have won. So from satan's pov every death would be fine execpt the way Jesus died. Could be very simple. If satan would have made  Judas stab Jesus with a knife, then (at least) one prophesy wasn't fulfilled. But what does satan does when he gets his first good chance? Hand over Jesus to the Romans. And because the Romans were the only ones doing the crucifixions satan indirectly handed over Jesus to the only persons that could fulfill one of the last/key prophesies.

Just a thought  :dontknow:
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 11:03:03 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2010, 10:59:45 PM »


    AND I DECLARED THAT THE DEAD,

   WHO HAD ALREADY DIED,

   ARE HAPPIER THAN THE LIVING,

   WHO ARE STILL ALIVE


    BUT BETTER THAN BOTH IS HE

  WHO HAS NOT YET BEEN ,

  WHO HAS NOT SEEN THE EVIL

  THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN


   Judas, better than if he had not been born

 

Offline Pierac

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2010, 03:32:03 AM »
so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
 and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
  is it not satan whom always betrays  Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other 
 satan or Jesus .............
I would assume satan would protect Jesus from getting caught.
From satan's pov every death for Jesus was fine but not a prophesy fulfilling death on the cross....
    can  not  see that WW sorry ?please explain  it for me  so I can , se your POV :mblush: 
 
   for me satan only has limited power over certain things  as God will permit
 
  take Job for instance      Job  was an example of how satan was given all that Job had  , but not his life
  the lesson for Job in all this was   even God had Jobs life and Job had to realize that   though all his misery and  nothing was in his own power
 

  God is in complete control  all the time and even over "time "  when that will be no more even  :icon_flower:
 
    mes longs for  that fulfillment  :thumbsup:

Indeed,

1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

I believe Jude 1:4 speaks directly to Judas!

Jude 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who betrayed whom?

Luk 22:3  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot , being of the number of the twelve.

Joh 13:2  And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;


Yep, we can understand Judas better now!


1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Paul



Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2010, 03:56:23 AM »

 
  Good  thoughts Paul ! 
you really should post more often  :thumbsup:
 
  Big help indeed 

  how will we learn what the difference  between good and evil is  without the evil   in the knowledge /tree ?
 
  and so desire the  Tree of Life / knowledge of Him
 
  God is in Control always  :icon_flower:
 
 appointed Strong's G5087 - tithēmi verb  root word A prolonged form of a primary theo {theh'-o} (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)


1) to set, put, place

a) to place or lay

b) to put down, lay down

1) to bend down

2) to lay off or aside, to wear or carry no longer

3) to lay by, lay aside money

c) to set on (serve) something to eat or drink

d) to set forth, something to be explained by discourse

2) to make

a) to make (or set) for one's self or for one's use

3) to set, fix establish

a) to set forth

b) to establish, ordain

Thanks  to every one and their contributions  :HeartThrob:

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2010, 08:47:25 PM »
Quote
Hi Dallas I agree that Judas lost his   place  of office
 
  but I also feel that the son of perdition  /type of Judas  

  also will be saved as by fire ..per  written in
 I Cor 3
  could also  very well explain  Judas  end
it was His deeds / works that are  judged ..

Quote
Yeah, I thought of that scripture Dallas.  I just wonder how deep that runs, i.e., as someone else said, does that [office] only pertain to the earthly ministry in which he was involved, or also have to do with the "afterlife"?  And bottom line, like rose said, I certainly believe he either will be or already is forgiven/restored.  If so, then restored to what?  Which brings us back to the 12 thrones, the name on the foundation, etc.


Absolutley Judas has been forgiven his sin etc.

So was Saul the first King of Israel, but he wasn't reinstated as King, no he lost His office and another had to take his place.

If I were president and did something bad to loose my office, like Nixon.... if that somehow was attoned for I would not get the office back because it had to be replaced by another and that person would not get fired simply because the other person got their head on right.

Now i'm not saying Judas isn't forgiven, he is. But it's simply logistics, his office was filled and there is no need for the replacement to be fired.

I also believe that the 12 apostles don't judge anyway. Since the Law was put away they have no frame of reference even which to judge by. Their job was to judge the Jews and they did that and the judgement came upon Jerusalem (AD70). They ran the church, they setteled disputes and led the revolution....that was thier job.

What are they judging NOW? What's the need for THIER judgement? Even if you believe there is a future judgement, does that mean God doesn't have the ability to judge everybody? By what measure do the apostles use to judge, for they can't judge by the heart? Are you saying we will need judges in heaven, so then there will be disputes in heaven and not peace?

The idea that we need judges after the cross and afterdeath is IMO outside the realm of biblical construct. There simply isn't a need for judgement. There was definatley a need for judges between the crucifixation and the parousia (end of the cross). But now that the event is over, because the old covenant (law) has passed by so likewise the position of judge (law) has likewise passed by.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 08:53:05 PM by Dallas »

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2010, 09:31:27 PM »

 
   Hi Dallas
  I belive this  verse  is what   caused some confusion ... :sigh:
 
 
 
 Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,

 ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #95 on: March 24, 2010, 01:18:56 AM »
Matthew 19:27 "Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"

   28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

   29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

   30 "But many who are first will be last; and the last, first."


So then others recieve many times more than the apostles... this is all talking about the ushering in of the kingdom of God and the removal of the kingdom of the Jew (law based capital).

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #96 on: March 24, 2010, 01:26:52 AM »
Thanks Dallas - I'll think about what you've said.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #97 on: March 24, 2010, 10:03:51 AM »
guys, here my take on it...

Judas was an appointed apostle by Jesus...and he lost his place for he was not following in his vocation anymore...
the other 11 apostles prayed to God and was shown who was to replace Judas
It is clear that Jesus instructed his apostles to act in this way (all of them being present) for they would one day not just carry on the message of Jesus, but also together judge the tribes of Israel...apostles (apostolos) are translated as "messengers"...the apostles had a specific task and was not allowed to act on their own or out of sync with what Jesus had taught...thats why Jesus spent 3 years training them before his death and also 1 year after his resurrection...they were men specifically and carefully picked for this task...one of the specific requirements for beind an apostle was also clearly shown at the vote, the person had to be present with the Lord on earth from the beginning of his ministry

we must remember that God gave these 12 apostles "the keys to bind/loose things in heaven and earth", so they had all to be in accord when the choice fell unto Matthias to replace Judas. It is correct what Pierac said about the apostles not outranking each other, they were all of the same rank and had to operate as a unit.

When James was killed by ther sword, no one was elected to replace him because he didn't loose his office, only his earthly life

Revelation also confirm that there are only 12 apostles EVER who was appointed by Jesus

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2010, 03:43:45 PM »

 
  Thanks NONAME !
 
this really helps too , soo much to consider  than just a few base facts  , most just run with that ..


 when you really get to share others views on these deeper  things of God and His plan it just blows my   little mind and  small view to shreds!
 

  I love the broader  thoughts everyone has shared  concerning Judas the past  few days  , lots to  ponder upon , that i never considered before !
 
 
  its been something  thats troubled me for some time now , years  actually  :sigh:..   again  good thoughts on this   :thumbsup:
 
   the 12  also a foundational  number  and how they would bring the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the world   
 
  the 3 days and wine the 7  loaves of bread  , the 12  apostles  ambassadors   for Christ  , speaking on His behalf  as   the   Christ /testator      as you said loosing and binding  by the power of the Holy Spirit  working in them   one whosoever will come  to the Lord
  this is also the prophecy being fulfilled , that blessed  is he who come in the name of the Lord , for those whom of the Jews  that  missed the time of their visitation
 
  bringing in the new and better testament /will by the royal Law of Love one another as I have loved you ....     being Rich made Himself poor by giving all He has to them and those whom believe them !     for Spiritual growth in  faith and His promises   in  the earth as it is in heaven
 
 
Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
 
  testament  Strong's G1242 - diathēkē From διατίθημι (G1303)

 
 1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament

a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

 
  testator Strong's G1303 - diatithēmi

 Middle voice from διά (G1223) and τίθημι (G5087)


 1) to arrange, dispose of, one's own affairs

a) of something that belongs to one

b) to dispose of by will, make a testament

2) to make a covenant, enter into a covenant, with one
 
  I have studies this before but its been awhile and  see even more than before !    Prasie God for His  mercy  and  unveiling 

noname

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »
@ rosered :thumbsup:

one can totally understand the statement about Judas if one thinks that he experienced all the trials and tribulations during Jesus' ministry, saw miracles unfold before his eyes, people being healed which were "unhealable" (for lack of a better word)...and then promised to be a ruler with Christ judging the tribes of Israel...promised everlasting life...only to sell it ALL for 30 pieces of silver :sigh: