Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 45887 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3010
  • Gender: Female
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2010, 06:31:25 PM »
Twelve apostles judge twelve tribes. I assume each apostle judges 1 tribe.
Is the apostle that judges that tribe member of the tribe?
If yes and the none of the apostles is from the tribe of Levi as Judas was then that's proof Judas didn't lose his throne.
Does someone have a list of tribes the apostles belong to?
  YA know I looked it up on the net and you did too  eh?
 seems those  are not so much the point as they all come out of God and are back into God by Jesus Christ/ living Word  , that name  that  no other can have Life in them to even judge ...
 Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.  

  Peter is given this kingdom sounds like   all the thones  he sits on in Christ as the WHOLE ?    just another thought ...
 
 
 Luk 22:29   And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12889
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2010, 07:16:06 PM »
Twelve apostles judge twelve tribes. I assume each apostle judges 1 tribe.
Is the apostle that judges that tribe member of the tribe?
If yes and the none of the apostles is from the tribe of Levi as Judas was then that's proof Judas didn't lose his throne.
Does someone have a list of tribes the apostles belong to?
 YA know I looked it up on the net and you did too  eh?
Nope. Luke 22:30, Rev 21:12-14


 
Quote
Peter is given this kingdom sounds like   all the thones  he sits on in Christ as the WHOLE ?    just another thought ...
12 is mentioned repeatingly so I think it's (still) separate.
Those 12 judges can work as a team or they can each judge one tribe.
Still waiting for my list  :laughing7:
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 07:51:38 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3010
  • Gender: Female
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2010, 07:33:03 PM »
ok gotcha!  :icon_flower:
 
 12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 
  I still dont think Judas is among them  Though :msealed:
 JMO! ...
   dont you think them sitting on the thrones determins  how one could enter  in the gates of the City
  they are judging with Christ Jesus / Lamb of God
 
  because in Luke 22 we see how the Lord said all serve each other equally  and the same ...
 
  this goes into explaining the  course ...


 20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
 21But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
 22And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

 23And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.

 24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

 25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger/ last or least ; and he that is chief/ first , as he that doth serve.
    Saul asked /Paul  small  /least was chief/ first  of sinners , so he serves the Lord  well now !   no mention of Judas  except his death and being replaced  in the ministry

 27For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

 28Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

 29And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

 30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 07:42:22 PM by rosered »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12889
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2010, 08:14:26 PM »
I still dont think Judas is among them  Though :msealed:
 JMO! ...
   dont you think them sitting on the thrones determins  how one could enter  in the gates of the City
  they are judging with Christ Jesus / Lamb of God
It may depend on how they enter the gates of the city. Then my question is how did Judas enter the gates?
Judas handed over Jesus - Fact.
Jesus died because of that - Fact.
Is it a bad thing? - Depends....
If Judas really betrayed Jesus then that's a bad thing.
But what if Judas did follow orders from Master Jesus? Does that make Judas a betrayer of the King or a servant of the King? Following instructions of Jesus is always lawful. So never a sin.
That's my opinion.
But it doesn't bring me any closer to main question. Is Judas a betrayer or a servant?
That's why I asked for the list.
There are 12 tribes. Now assume the bloodlines of the 12 apostles all trace back to a different one of those 12 tribes.
(all 12 are from different tribes)
That of Judas traces back to Levi.
If the bloodline of the replacement of Judas traces back to Levi that man can be a judge.
But if it traces back to another tribe it would mean there in no Levite judge.
And that "proves" the replacement only replaces Judas on earth but not on the throne.

Quote
26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger/ last or least ; and he that is chief/ first , as he that doth serve.
    Saul asked /Paul  small  /least was chief/ first  of sinners , so he serves the Lord  well now !   no mention of Judas  except his death and being replaced  in the ministry
Paul said that after the death of Judas. Imagine you are one of the 12. What would you concider the worst sin?
Stealing. Killing Christians, ...., ....  or killing Jesus.
I would guess the answer is "killing Jesus"
But still Paul feels he's the biggest sinner. Is he just humbling himself. Or doesn't he consider Judas because he knew Judas was following orders?


For many of you it may be very clear and obvious. For me it's not. I haven't seen a single explanation or verse that proves things for me.
I've seen little pieces supporting both sides. But not enough for me. That's why I ask for a list.
Still no proof but again that tiny bit extra to come to a solid conclusion.
Right now, unlike most of you I think, I mildly edge towards that Judas followed strickt orders and will sit on the throne (because of that).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:17:52 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8952
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2010, 08:26:22 PM »
I don't rule it out either, Tony.  And whether he's on one of the 12 thrones or not, Jesus still He would draw (drag) ALL men to Him.  So either way, Judas is/will be forgiven and part of the kingdom.   :2c:
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:32:26 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12889
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2010, 08:41:52 PM »
I don't rule it out either, Tony.  And whether he's on one of the 12 thrones or not, Jesus still He would draw (drag) ALL men to Him.  So either way, Judas is/will be forgiven and part of the kingdom.   :2c:
The article you quoted from also mentions Judas was a better apostle than Peter.

I got the answer to my list question....

KJVMat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

KJVMat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

Brothers are obviously from the same tribe so it's impossible the twelve are from 12 different tribes....
Another idea shot out of the sky  :laughing7:
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:47:06 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3010
  • Gender: Female
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2010, 08:53:09 PM »
 

  Hi Tony
   glad you saw that  :thumbsup:
 and I only  agree with what is written in Scriptures , that is why  I use so many scriptures to back up anything   posted , letting them speak
  I cannot go beyond  that or whats written or known  :mblush:
 
  God forbid we twist the scriptures or add to them or take away from  them
 
  I just  fear the Lord  thats all , but in a good way ,its a healthy  fear and reverance  for the Lords Word  :thumbsup:
 
and this is the very scriptures that make me   aware or God conscience
   and consider it a warning   :mshock:


Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
 
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2010, 09:11:51 PM »
willieH: Hi UC...  :happygrin:

I still do not understand why the scripture says it would be better if Judas had not been born.

It does NOT say this... this is what YOU understand it to say...

This text is much like the one in which JESUS spoke about being "in PARADISE", to the thief... and like that passage, this one appears to be just as MISUNDERSTOOD...

JESUS told the thief that HE WOULD be in paradise, and that announcement came upon the day of their deaths, however NEITHER of them would be IN PARADISE on THAT DAY... JESUS had yet to spend his own prophesied, 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

Though I am not entirely convinced, the following makes the most sense...

The text in question follows, and keep in mind that the references very possibly meant (where I have place brackets):

Mark 14:21 -- The Son of man indeed goeth as it is written of Him!  but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! [JUDAS] good were it for that man [JESUS] if he [JUDAS] had never been born....

Why would GOD declare such a fate for JUDAS?  What reason is found in this particular man which was NECESSARY for the plan to be realized, that GOD should CONDEMN Judas for doing what was NECESSARY?  That is UNREASONABLE...

What makes sense, is that had JUDAS never been born, it would've been better for JESUS...

The preceeding words note that JESUS must go forth and DO that which was WRITTEN of Him -- "the Son of man indeed GOETH as IT IS WRITTEN of HIM" -- which was NOT a desireable pathway at all... But the great FAITH of CHRIST, carried Him forth faithfully to what was WRITTEN of Him... forsaking His own feelings which the words contained in saying "good were it for that man [JESUS/Son of man], that he [JUDAS] had never been BORN"... (to BETRAY Him)...  :dontknow:

JESUS knew well before the betrayal, his pathway which CONTAINED the BETRAYAL, ...and HIS DEATH, and had expressed it elsewhere, well PRIOR to the betrayal -- Matt 16:21-23 -- and was certainly NOT looking forward to the experience, as He asked IF POSSIBLE for the "cup to pass" -- Matt 26:39 -- right after this verse -- Matt 26:24 -- under discussion concerning JUDAS...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 01:52:57 AM by willieH »

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2010, 09:53:29 PM »
Quote
  21"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

The context is, the whom woe will come upon is the betrayer. Seriously, it is straight forward, and if you need to twist that to fit your wholy ideology you are the one having difficulty with the scriptures not others.

Now it says woe to the betrayer that woe really doesn;t mean anything then? So likewise when revelation says woe that also doens't really mean woe but more like, kinda unfourtunate.

Revelation 8:13 "Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

Revelation 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

There is a calamity that befalls Judas, that is an internal calamity, ripping at his soul, as he fights within himself for peace at what he had done. That man who betrayed Jesus now must turn to Jesus and accept Jesus' inclusion.... not going to be an easy thing to face....almost as though it would be better for him not to have been born. So much so that man was destryoed within himself he killed himself. Surely Judas was included into the cross, just try to convince him of that.

If my daughter tries to sneak to toy to school it's hard for her to acknowledge it because of shame, a full-grown man who got fired has a very hard time telling people because of shame (suicide rate from it), so how easy is it going to be for Judas who betrayed GOD to turn to Him and acknowledge it? Imagine the shame that he carries about it, it was so much he did kill himself.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 09:57:59 PM by Dallas »

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2010, 10:00:19 PM »
willieH: Hi brother D...  :cloud9:

Hello Will;

You are completely ignoring a well established understanding of biblical context. The number 12 is the representation of Hebrew government. There are twelve tribes of Israel, that have 12 judges who judge them. This structure was lost to the Hebrew people through their continual falling away from God. At the time when Jesus arrived there was no Hebrew governmental structure other than the religous.

Jesus chose twelve apostles because of the [1] restucturing of the need for the twelve tribes, one to judge each. So much so that Jesus even said that they (the twelve) would judge the twelve tribes. [2] This office of judge was the office Judas lost his position from.

You have posted ZERO Scriptural support for these two contentions above (1) JESUS was about a "restructuring" (2) that JUDAS lost the "office of judge"...

This again is just an opinion, one belonging to you... for which you posted no Biblical references to support it...  :dontknow:

JESUS did not say that He was "RESTRUCTURING" anything.  

GRACE does not operate in the same sense as does the NATURAL... for it is FREE from it... THAT is WHY, when the Pharisees took their "LAW" to Him and questioned His behavior by comparing IT to CHRIST, ...then [failingly] assaulted Him with IT's [the "law's"] CONDEMNATIONS.  :thumbdown:

I realize that you will take more scripture out of context and use it to prove an idea you have, so there is no need for me to respond after this. People need to keep the whole bible in mind when claiming such things.

 :Yeahright: --- in quickly slipping out the back door, be careful not to let it bruise your behind!  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, but did you have to go to school to learn how to arrange such a "cop out", or is it just a NATURAL talent?  :laughing7: (just pullin' your leg a bit, bro!  :wink1:)

I haven't taken ANY Scripture out of context... and btw... you conveniently have failed to name those which you contend that I have...  :thumbdown:

No offense bro, ...but your argument is based upon your opinion, not upon the Scriptures... Which happens to be WHY you have not named any to support your contentions, and which is WHY you fail to note where I have violated CONTEXT, in those that I BOTHERED to post in support of my viewpoint...

Btw... CONTEXT is a whole other arguement (based upon the words of MEN, not upon the WORD of GOD)...

It is my contention that the ENTIRE Scripture is a "CONTEXT" for it stands as ONE, ...and no principle within the WORD of GOD, is CONFINED by MAN'S  theological DEMAND of -- "CONTEXT"! :mnah:

I am not condeming nor did I ever suggest Judas recive punishment, I just stated what the scripture recorded.

Hmmm... oh really? :thinking: ...where?  :dunno:

Judas betrayed Jesus, comitted suicide, lost his office, both of which were prophesied, and likewise to fulfill prophecy his office as judge was given to another.

Where is this stated bro Dallas?  :Book: :declare:

There is no need for a thirteenth judge/apostle, there are only twelve tribes....

You are getting terribly off-point...  :wacko2:

JUDAS was CHOSEN as one of the TWELVE FOUNDATIONAL Apostles -- BY -- the WORD... and, the WORD ---  :popout: --- NEVER CHANGES... so those APPOINTMENTS shall NOT CHANGE.  Irregardless of your opinion, bro. :mnah:

In the FLESH, JUDAS was ordained to be the adversary of CHRIST in order to accomplish SALVATION, ...even though APPOINTED by HIM as a FOUNDATIONAL APOSTLE...  

In the SPIRIT, JUDAS was APPOINTED a FOUNDATIONAL APOSTLE, and that shall NOT CHANGE, and until you prove otherwise, your contention is just an opinion.

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2010, 10:22:25 PM »
Quote
Irregardless of your opinion, bro.


Cool, you regard my opinion!  :laughing7:

Quote
You have posted ZERO Scriptural support for these two contentions above (1) JESUS was about a "restructuring" (2) that JUDAS lost the "office of judge"...

Acts 1:15 "At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, 16"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

   20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,
         'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
         AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';
         and,
         'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'

As far as Jesus establishing the twelve as heads in which they shall judge, read the thread because Roserred quoted a great amount of scripture concearning it.... the twelve would judge the twelve tribes of israel, they would sit on the walls of the new jerusalem judgeing wether or not one should be allowed inside.

Now go ahead and twist these so we can see why the great Willie has the understanding... just as you tried to twist the woe is meant for Jesus scripture. LOL!

Yab Yum

  • Guest
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2010, 10:24:32 PM »
Interesting thread.

Suggestion. If a father tells his son as they are on their way to the woodshed that it would be better for him if he hadn't been born ... well you know that boy is getting, as they say, a whuppin.

From what I can tell, UR still believes that judgment can be very severe.

Infinity minus one moment - is still a verrrrrry verrrrrry long time.

 :thumbsup: :thumbdown: :msealed:

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2010, 10:40:27 PM »
Hey willie I would also like to point out what Peter said about Judas;

Acts 1:25 "to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2010, 10:50:35 PM »
willieH: Hi Dal... :hithere:

Quote
21"For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

The context is, the whom woe will come upon is the betrayer. Seriously, it is straight forward, and if you need to twist that to fit your wholy ideology you are the one having difficulty with the scriptures not others.

Now it says woe to the betrayer that woe really doesn;t mean anything then? So likewise when revelation says woe that also doens't really mean woe but more like, kinda unfourtunate.

FIRST --- Twisting:sigh: ...This is an unnecessary comment, and you should be ashamed for suggesting it of another.  We are all seeking... and in that seeking, we shall find ourselves in varying places along the pathway of truth.

You cannot erect the STRAWMAN called "twisting" and exempt yourself from it.  So let us ignore this foolishness, and leave it to burn.

SECOND --- No one is trying to suggest that JUDAS did not recieve his "woe"... on the contrary!  I believe that he suffered mentally and spiritually MORE than any man in HISTORY!  That is a LOT of "woe"...

THIRD --- There are LITERAL translations which bear out that this verse conveys that JESUS was the one that would've been "better off"... capitalizing the word -- "HIM" -- and thereby showing reference to JESUS within the text...

CLT -- Mark 14:21 -- 21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

Revelation 8:13 "Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

Revelation 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

These verses are applicable to ALL in which ADVERSITY exists... It is argueable that "the devil" is actually a sentient entity... but that's another discussion. :nod:

There is a calamity that befalls Judas, that is an internal calamity, ripping at his soul, as he fights within himself for peace at what he had done. That man who betrayed Jesus now must turn to Jesus and accept Jesus' inclusion.... not going to be an easy thing to face....almost as though it would be better for him not to have been born. So much so that man was destryoed within himself he killed himself. Surely Judas was included into the cross, just try to convince him of that.

There is a very SPIRITUAL picture in the death of JUDAS... It is the DEATH of ADVERSITY... which must occur in ALL...  ALL men are AS GUILTY as JUDAS, concerning the DEATH of the Savior.  And JESUS' "inclusion" WILL be as HEART FELT in each man, as it was in JUDAS... for He embodies OUR BETRAYAL.

a full-grown man who got fired has a very hard time telling people because of shame (suicide rate from it), so how easy is it going to be for Judas who betrayed GOD to turn to Him and acknowledge it? Imagine the shame that he carries about it, it was so much he did kill himself.

I just addressed this... we all must willingly submit to DEATH, the CARNAL version of ourselves, and submit to the CHRIST within, which shall NEVER [not at any time] leave us or forsake us.  (He WAS with us, IS with us, and ALWAYS WILL BE with us)

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12889
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2010, 11:00:06 PM »
Interesting thread.

Suggestion. If a father tells his son as they are on their way to the woodshed that it would be better for him if he hadn't been born ... well you know that boy is getting, as they say, a whuppin.

From what I can tell, UR still believes that judgment can be very severe.

Infinity minus one moment - is still a verrrrrry verrrrrry long time.

 :thumbsup: :thumbdown: :msealed:

YY,

I've searched for the duration of punishment. I found various articles on it by Rabbi's. They all seem to agree correction lasts 0-11 months. 3 months for most people. 12 months for the extremely wicked. A minority thinks the last group will stop to exist after 12 months. I do not now how they concluded that.
My idea/guess is that it's related to the spring/fall harvests.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2010, 11:01:49 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Dallas on Today at 02:53:29 PM
There is a calamity that befalls Judas, that is an internal calamity, ripping at his soul, as he fights within himself for peace at what he had done. That man who betrayed Jesus now must turn to Jesus and accept Jesus' inclusion.... not going to be an easy thing to face....almost as though it would be better for him not to have been born. So much so that man was destryoed within himself he killed himself. Surely Judas was included into the cross, just try to convince him of that.

There is a very SPIRITUAL picture in the death of JUDAS... It is the DEATH of ADVERSITY... which must occur in ALL...  ALL men are AS GUILTY as JUDAS, concerning the DEATH of the Savior.  And JESUS' "inclusion" WILL be as HEART FELT in each man, as it was in JUDAS... for He embodies OUR BETRAYAL.


Quote from: Dallas on Today at 02:53:29 PM
a full-grown man who got fired has a very hard time telling people because of shame (suicide rate from it), so how easy is it going to be for Judas who betrayed GOD to turn to Him and acknowledge it? Imagine the shame that he carries about it, it was so much he did kill himself.

I just addressed this... we all must willingly submit to DEATH, the CARNAL version of ourselves, and submit to the CHRIST within, which shall NEVER [not at any time] leave us or forsake us.  (He WAS with us, IS with us, and ALWAYS WILL BE with us)


What does this have anything to do with the conversation we were in?

Quote
FIRST --- Twisting?   ...This is an unnecessary comment, and you should be ashamed for suggesting it of another.  We are all seeking... and in that seeking, we shall find ourselves in varying places along the pathway of truth.

You cannot erect the STRAWMAN called "twisting" and exempt yourself from it.  So let us ignore this foolishness, and leave it to burn.]



And, yes I can. I see the use of the scriptures as you are using them to be twisting. Scripture is literature and when you decide to change the lituature to wrangle a meaning out of it you have lost the meaning it already had. There is also a great conotation that you need it to say what you want verses, just because you found others who need that same idea isn't surprising, even Heaven's Gate had more than one member.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2010, 11:02:45 PM »
willieH: Hi Dallas...  :cloud9:

Hey willie I would also like to point out what Peter said about Judas;

Acts 1:25 "to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

No one is denying that another APOSTLE was appointed to carry on...  

But this replacement APOSTLE was not of the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE.

CHRIST chose the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE... and the WORD NEVER CHANGES... So the CHOOSING that He did IS ETERNAL.

You are more than welcome to maintain your opinion.  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Dallas

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2010, 11:09:03 PM »
Quote
No one is denying that another APOSTLE was appointed to carry on...  

But this replacement APOSTLE was not of the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE.

CHRIST chose the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE... and the WORD NEVER CHANGES... So the CHOOSING that He did IS ETERNAL.

You are more than welcome to maintain your opinion.

This is what I am saying, you just simply chose to deny the scripture even why I did post it for you. It says straight forward, Judas had recived his portion already, he gave up his seat and another was appointed to fill the role.

But you chose to deny the simply stated reality of it...when Jesus included Judas he knew full well that he was going to lose his seat, if not him someone else would have, the seat would need to be replaced and Jesus gave it to Paul personally.

Just as Saul the first King of Israel lost his position, and David was put in his place, likewise the judge lost his and was replaced. And along with it all it's rights and privellages.

Yab Yum

  • Guest
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2010, 10:08:23 PM »
I've searched for the duration of punishment. I found various articles on it by Rabbi's. They all seem to agree correction lasts 0-11 months. 3 months for most people. 12 months for the extremely wicked. A minority thinks the last group will stop to exist after 12 months. I do not now how they concluded that.
My idea/guess is that it's related to the spring/fall harvests.

Thanks WW.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2010, 11:47:31 PM »
willieH: Hi Dallas...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH
No one is denying that another APOSTLE was appointed to carry on...  

But this replacement APOSTLE was not of the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE.

CHRIST chose the FOUNDATIONAL TWELVE... and the WORD NEVER CHANGES... So the CHOOSING that He did IS ETERNAL.

You are more than welcome to maintain your opinion.

This is what I am saying, you just simply chose to deny the scripture even why I did post it for you. It says straight forward, Judas had recived his portion already, he gave up his seat and another was appointed to fill the role.

Only on the TEMPORAL plane, Dallas... NOTHING is noted of the ETERNAL... except the ETERNAL "CHOICE", which was PERSONALLY made by CHRIST of JUDAS as an APOSTLE... :nod:

If there was such a proof, you would've already posted it bro, but you have not, because it is not there...  :dontknow:

The fact remains that on the ETERNAL plane, in which JUDAS was CHOSEN -- BY -- the WORD [CHRIST], he was of the TWELVE... The WORD does NOT CHANGE, and there is NO VARIANCE in it -- James 1:17 -- the CHOICE made and STATED by CHRIST is therefore an UNCHANGING CHOICE, irregardless of your decision to not recognize it.

JUDAS "gave up his role", because it was ORDAINED he do so (on the TEMPORAL plane), in the Lamb being SLAIN from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Rev 13:8 -- JUDAS did NOT decide this (him "giving up his role"), ...GOD did...  :dontknow:

But you chose to deny the simply stated reality of it...when Jesus included Judas he knew full well that he was going to lose his seat, if not him someone else would have, the seat would need to be replaced and Jesus gave it to Paul personally.

I am not "denying" anything... I simply see this differently than do you...

The biggest difference between our views bro... is that I see the decision of JUDAS as one GOD made and, "not his own" (for that decision was made at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, not 2000 years ago)... whereas, you see his "decision" as his own.

Btw... PAUL was not given to be the replacement of JUDAS... it was MATTHIAS -- Acts 1:20-26

Just as Saul the first King of Israel lost his position, and David was put in his place, likewise the judge lost his and was replaced. And along with it all it's rights and privellages.

Let's face it, ...you are reaching bro... :mnah:

The TEMPORAL plane is FOREORDAINED, for GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- (not according to JUDAS or you or I or David or Saul)

We are on the agenda of YHVH, not the other way around...  :dontknow: 

YHVH did not have to make a change in plans which included a "replacement" of JUDAS, due to the "CLAY" known as JUDAS, rather... had already DECLARED the part of JUDAS within His FORE-DECLARATION of ALL THINGS which "were not done" (which is EVERYTHING in the TEMPORAL plane) -- Isaiah 46:10

Again... you are welcome to disagree, doesn't matter to me...  :friendstu:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3010
  • Gender: Female
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2010, 01:06:06 AM »
 

  This has been on my mind for a couple of days now  
 and have read everyones POV
   the thing that is bugging me most is that satan entered  Judas
   Jesus said Have I not choosen   you twelve and one of you is a devil ?
 
  so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
 and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
  is it not satan whom always betrays  Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other 
 satan or Jesus .............
 
 It seems we are chosen vessels [honor and dishonor ]and have very little  control over what chooses us  and if we even have a choice  in anything really  :mshock:
 in our weakness   the Lord is our strength !  you cannot be any weaker when suicide looks good to ya !

 just some thoughts on this  thread ,  that has been bugging me for two days now ,  its  still not settled within  yet ..
 
 3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.

4He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them.

5And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.
 
6So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8952
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2010, 01:34:47 AM »


  This has been on my mind for a couple of days now  
 and have read everyones POV
   the thing that is bugging me most is that satan entered  Judas
   Jesus said Have I not choosen   you twelve and one of you is a devil ?
 
  so was satan leading Judas around by the nose on the betrayal?
 and its actually satan whom betrays Christ though Judas ?
  is it not satan whom always betrays  Christ ? us even , we are all prisoners of one or the other  
 satan or Jesus .............
 
 It seems we are chosen vessels [honor and dishonor ]and have very little  control over what chooses us  and if we even have a choice  in anything really  :mshock:
 in our weakness   the Lord is our strength !  you cannot be any weaker when suicide looks good to ya !

 just some thoughts on this  thread ,  that has been bugging me for two days now ,  its  still not settled within  yet ..
 
 3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.

4He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them.

5And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.
 
6So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.

Good post, rosie - a lot to think about.

------------------------------------------------------------
Mod Note - Guys, let's please get this topic back on focus and leave off with the personal stuff.  PMs are available for that.  Thanks, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2010, 02:07:02 AM »
It is certainly most important and interesting that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him.  There is hardly any experience in life more painful than that.  The story could have played out any way at all, but it played out this way.   What wound could be more devastating?

He surely lets us know that he understands everything we will suffer in this life, because he suffered it himself.


Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.



But, I no longer stand on the foundation of a betrayer and liar, but the sure foundation of one who is worthy, one who is faithful, one who is true--Our foundation is not the betrayer, but the Christ.



2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3010
  • Gender: Female
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2010, 02:43:39 AM »
It is certainly most important and interesting that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him.  There is hardly any experience in life more painful than that.  The story could have played out any way at all, but it played out this way.   What wound could be more devastating?

He surely lets us know that he understands everything we will suffer in this life, because he suffered it himself.


Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.



But, I no longer stand on the foundation of a betrayer and liar, but the sure foundation of one who is worthy, one who is faithful, one who is true--Our foundation is not the betrayer, but the Christ.



2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

     the prophecy was Molly that one would come  to betray  Jesus  a friend
  but  what was  all the rest of them that actually  done the deed  ? .. true  Judas  led them to Jesus  but
 the only sin that is unforgivable is to Blaspheme the Holy Shirit 
  do you think Judas is guilty of that ?

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2010, 03:03:46 AM »
Quote
the only sin that is unforgivable is to Blaspheme the Holy Shirit 
  do you think Judas is guilty of that ?

well, I can't really claim to know what that is, but Judas was always a shady character, a petty thief dipping into the till--surely, Jesus knew this about him.  Even though he is entered into by Satan at the supper, it's not like he had much character to begin with.

But I always felt sorry for him because I think he did realize at the end what he had done.  He understood and knew that he could not undo it--would have if he could.  It has always made me very sad.




3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

 4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

 5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


--Mat 27