Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 50668 times)

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Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 09:46:34 PM »
I still don't know Rosey.
a] A first thought its a very bad thing to do things that got Jesus killed.
b] It was also the misson of Jesus to get killed (and live again).
c] Jesus said all 12 who have a throne. And while He said that He surely knew about Judas.
d] What KJV translates are "betrayed" more literal translations write "hand over". While betrayed is a very negative term handed over can mean betray but also like agreed.
e] Plus extra Biblical sources also speak of Jesus ordering Judas to hand Him over. But that kind of sources are not for this forum.


So for me ?


   Thanks Tony for your openess and willing to talk on these things
 I do appreciate that  of you
 
  I have mixed  views on this myself 
 I  do know when Jesus was praying for the  twelve  disciples /students 
 to His Father  in John 17  there is mention of  Judas being called the son of perdition / loss 
 for me that was loosing his place in the ministry and loss/ruin /destruction  of life that scripture might  be fulfilled 

  thats the part  thats mysterious  to us "that scripture might be fulfilled "
 
  seems as a "have to" case  , does it not ?
 
 Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
  the  strange part also is that this other place speaks of the same "son of perditon "   that betrays   the Christ / annointing in you  also  :JCThink:
 
 hummmm ?  there   it is .. .
 
 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Offline sheila

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2010, 09:48:39 PM »
......imo....Judas just portrayed the son of perdition..that goes

 into everlasting cutting off.or the adversary which lost his

position.[dominion]..such as sin entered through one man [First

Adam]

   a creepy role to play.[one of you is a devil].ordained by God..in order tht the scripture be fufilled.

   there were 13...Jesus and His disciples[12] a 'throne' for

  each 'tribe' of Israel[patriarchs].Jesus could be portraying Father[on His throne]

...could be...Matthais to fill the 12..to Israel....and

Saul/Paul.....to go to Gentiles[one borne

out of season]   there is a time and purpose for everything

under heaven...a time to live and a time to die.

   a persecutor of the body of Christ[put it to death]

   'CHANGED" into him who suffers for His name's sake


   the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world..so

 evidently the prince of this world slew the Lamb....and God

 showed forth that which took place in the invisible...there..

to be visible to all.

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2010, 10:09:57 PM »

 
  Thanks Shelia  :icon_flower:

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:


 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will: 

 Eph 1:12   That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  
 

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2010, 11:27:42 PM »
I want to throw this verse into the mix.

KJV1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I=Paul/Saul
He's saved but was the worst sinner of all. That would mean worse than Judas. Paul gets his throne and the lesser sinner Judas eternal torture....?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2010, 11:34:39 PM »
I want to throw this verse into the mix.

KJV1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I=Paul/Saul
He's saved but was the worst sinner of all. That would mean worse than Judas. Paul gets his throne and the lesser sinner Judas eternal torture....?

    Judas name   will probably be changed and written in the Lambs book of Life  like Saul / Pauls was ?

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2010, 11:44:54 PM »
I have my question by that verse. It perhaps comes a bit to close to critising scripture but her it goes...

Should that verse be taken seriously? Or is Paul just humbling himself. Ok he wasn't be best of men before conversion.  But there was a great deal of cruelty at that time. For example the soldiers that did beat Jesus to pulp and mocked Him at the cross.
Plus Paul says AM prensent tense. Not WAS. I believe Paul at that time still had his flaws. But was he really worse a sinner than those Romans that tortured for fun and worship 8 different gods?
 :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2010, 11:57:45 PM »
willieH: Hi James... :hithere:

YOU speak the TRUTH:

Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?

I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day.   :bigGrin:

EXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION. 

His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2010, 12:18:31 AM »
willieH: Hi James... :hithere:

YOU speak the TRUTH:

Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?

I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day.   :bigGrin:

EXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.  

His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

 :thumbsup:  I kind'a see Judas being "replaced" either by lot cast by man (similar to the current system of voting in denominations today in their "business meetings"?) - and though Paul was an apostle, he was NOT one of the original 12 (who Jesus calls according to an ultra literal translation, His "dispatched envoys" - including Judas).  Jesus said some incredible things to the 12, about their being given to know the secrets of the kingdom, etc.  Many things.  I never saw anyplace where Jesus turned aside and whispered ("everyone except Judas, that is")  :laughing7:.   I believe Judas served his purpose, Paul served his.   :2c:

I also like WW's point about the names on the foundation being a great honor.  That's cool.  I certainly could be wrong/missing something, but again, who was hearing Jesus' words to the 12 when He said them?  Paul, Matthias, or Judas?  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 01:17:50 AM by jabcat »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2010, 02:22:23 AM »
In the OT, there were 12 tribes, the tribe of Dan ( the judgment ) was cut out of their inheritance and replaced by the Levites ( priests ) who had none of their own.
In the NT, Judas ( who brought judgment upon Jesus; whose name means praise, but not of the Lord but of the judgment of the brethren) was replaced by Matthias
( whose name is the same as Matthew means Gift of God ) and the (2) witness of the salvation of Christ as something that we can not earn.





Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2010, 02:31:11 AM »
 :Sparkletooth: It's an interesting, complicated topic, huh David?  Interesting.   :scratchhead:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2010, 02:46:19 AM »
Amen James.
But, The Lord does follow basic principles within the Scriptures, that are, once breathed in, easier to understand.
His written Word is amazing, His living Word is unfathomable.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2010, 02:49:47 AM »
Agreed - breathing in a little at a time it seems.

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2010, 09:51:40 AM »
Another thought on this:

KJVLuk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
=> The result of that is clear.

KJVLuk 22:31-32  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
a] Did satan tried to enter Simon before or after he successfully entered Judas?
b] What was the reason satan wanted to enter Simon? Is it related to the betrayal?
c] Why did Jesus block satan from entering Simon but not for Judas?


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2010, 10:18:50 PM »
willieH: Hi Beloved... :hithere:

In the OT, there were 12 tribes, the tribe of Dan ( the judgment ) was cut out of their inheritance and replaced by the Levites ( priests ) who had none of their own.
In the NT, Judas ( who brought judgment upon Jesus; whose name means praise, but not of the Lord but of the judgment of the brethren) was replaced by Matthias
( whose name is the same as Matthew means Gift of God ) and the (2) witness of the salvation of Christ as something that we can not earn.

Just, ....Way cool bro...  :cloud9:

Only goes to show the continuing and eternal amazement of GOD and His WORD... :boogie:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 08:38:24 PM by willieH »

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2010, 02:48:03 AM »
Quote
EXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.  

His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8
 

Guess it's time for us all now to talk about how awesome and Godly and reverant and righteous Pharaoh was, I mean He did exactally what God wanted.

The betrayer was exposed in prophecy so was the the fact that his position was to be lost and given to another. Both by prophecy, and it was Jesus himself who ordained Paul not the men in the upper room.

Judas was a replay of Pharaoh, as Paul explained, the Potter made some vessles for honorable use and dishonorable use.

The office of the 12 however is not being filled by the dishonorable vessle.

Offline sheila

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2010, 04:50:07 PM »
  as for the betrayer lost his position,and it was given unto

another...there is a theme that runs through-out the

scriptures,like a golden thread[or scarlet].

   First we have Adam given dominion..the to loose it..next we

have angels fallen from their first estate..and loosing their

positions in Heaven.  Then we have Saul loosing his position to

David..on and on unto the promised seed to whom it is given.

   Israel loosing it's position as a nation peculiar unto God..

   Basically...it is the one born from above..that inherits...

  and he that is from below that looses out...however we see

  Jacob/supplanter name change to Israel/Prince of God..through

 this promised seed. Showing that the corruptible does not

inherit the Kingdom...but must put on incorruption to inherit.


  OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IN MANY DIFFERENT

SCENARIO'S AND EXAMPLES, HE DECLARES THIS TRUTH.

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2010, 07:45:45 PM »
 :thumbsup:
 
   wow ! great perception  Shelia !  Praise God !

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2010, 08:37:51 PM »
willieH: Hi Brother Dallas...  :Sparkletooth:

With all due respect, I hope I am able to convey to you an observation that appears to elude you...

Quote from: willieH
EXACTLY bro James... without the "betrayal" of JUDAS... none of us would have SALVATION.  

His "BETRAYAL" was a PIVOTAL part of the COMPLETED WORK... FOREORDAINED to be so (from eternity), ...before (in time), it was DONE -- Rev 13:8
 

Guess it's time for us all now to talk about how awesome and Godly and reverant and righteous Pharaoh was, I mean He did exactally what God wanted.

I don't know how to more effectively explain it other than this... In a nutshell:

Pharaoh was not "Godly nor reverent, nor righteous" (and the Scriptures do not mention that he was, nor that these things were intended within his experience) but, in his own way, ...he WAS definitely ...AWESOME...

For, ...Pharaoh did EXACTLY as God wanted (and ordained) him to do (and DECLARED "his doings" as part of those things that "were not done" -- Isaiah 46:10), which fall WITHIN the (living) KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as is KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God...

Pharoah / Egypt are the LIVING picture of SIN as it holds the PEOPLE of GOD in its DEATH grip, UNDELIVERED (which is everyone -- for ALL have sinned)... WITHOUT its [sins] presence... GOOD cannot "deliver" from EVIL -- Luke 11:4

The betrayer was exposed in prophecy so was the the fact that his position was to be lost and given to another. Both by prophecy, and it was Jesus himself who ordained Paul not the men in the upper room.

As far as the "Apostolic office/gifting" [Eph 4:11] ...it is given according to God's appointment... there is NO Biblical statement which LIMITS the number that can or will be called APOSTLES... however... as James [Jabcat] has already noted... JUDAS was amongst those hearing the announcement of the TWELVE [one of which was Judas] which were FOUNDATIONAL... Apostles...  

The TWELVE were CHOSEN [Matt 20:14 -- John 6:70] by the WORD... and the WORD does NOT CHANGE -- Heb 13:8 -- neither has VARIANCE in IT -- James 1:17

So when something [ANYTHING] is "CHOSEN" by the WORD... it remains FOREVER -- "CHOSEN" --  :dontknow:

All that is displayed is that JUDAS would experience his DEATH [as a sinful being which has BETRAYED God -- and name even ONE which has not fallen into this category?] -- Which resulted in a PERSONAL depth of SORROW, unmatched in history by ANY other human being.  For JUDAS KNEW that it was his betrayal of CHRIST which brought death to the Savior...  

The "picture" of JUDAS is the "picture" of us ALL, bro Dallas...

We are ALL "JUDAS", my friend... (betrayers of CHRIST)

For it is within our recognition that indeed, it was OUR SIN [as individuals], which caused the DEATH of CHRIST, that [individual] deliverance from it, occurs. :nod:

Concerning his [JUDAS'] doings, ...instead of getting a "lynch mob" together...

We should be:

(1) THANKFUL, for without JUDAS (or another like him), the plan to SAVE US, ...comes up empty...
(2) UNJUDGMENTAL of him for we are so instructed -- Matt 7:1
(3) SYMPATHETIC toward him, for he was ORDAINED to do what he did and SUFFERED in a way that you and I cannot even imagine.
(4) recognizing that in JUDAS, is found the embodiement of us all... (betrayal of the SAVIOR.)

Judas was a replay of Pharaoh, as Paul explained, the Potter made some vessles for honorable use and dishonorable use.


JUDAS is NOT "a replay of Pharaoh"... Pharaoh did not betray GOD, he was positioned as the one IMPRISONING the People of GOD... BY GOD -- Rom 9:17 -- Rom 13:1-2

Judas is not mentioned in this way other than by YOU, bro... so all that remains concerning this statement is the assumption that your assumption is so.  :sigh:

The office of the 12 however is not being filled by the dishonorable vessle.

ALL MEN are in part, "dishonorable vessels" bro Dallas:

Rom 3:9-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3 --  What then?  are WE better than THEY?  No, ...IN NO WISE... for WE have PROVED both JEWS and GENTILES [which includes everyone], that they are, ...ALL under SIN --- AS IT IS WRITTEN -- there is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE... there is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after GOD, they are ALL gone out of the WAY [see John 14:6], they are TOGETHER become unprofittable; there is NONE that DOETH GOOD, ...NO, ...NOT, ...ONE -- which includes you and I, the Apostle JUDAS ...AND... the Apostle Paul --  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 08:42:35 PM by willieH »

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2010, 09:07:21 PM »
Hello Will;

You are completely ignoring a well established understanding of biblical context. The number 12 is the representation of Hebrew government. There are twelve tribes of Israel, that have 12 judges who judge them. This structure was lost to the Hebrew people through their continual falling away from God. At the time when Jesus arrived there was no Hebrew governmental structure other than the religous.

Jesus chose twelve apostles because of the restucturing of the need for the twelve tribes, one to judge each. So much so that Jesus even said that they (the twelve) would judge the twelve tribes. This office of judge was the office Judas lost his position from.

I realize that you will take more scripture out of context and use it to prove an idea you have, so there is no need for me to respond after this. People need to keep the whole bible in mind when claiming such things.

I am not condeming nor did I ever suggest Judas recive punishment, I just stated what the scripture recorded.

Judas betrayed Jesus, comitted suicide, lost his office, both of which were prophesied, and likewise to fulfill prophecy his office as judge was given to another.


There is no need for a thirteenth judge/apostle, there are only twelve tribes....

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2010, 06:18:46 AM »
I still do not understand why the scripture says it would be better if Judas had not been born.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2010, 06:56:37 AM »
Sorry for the copy and pastes...I am editing them for length and relevance...hope they help.


Part of an article entitled "Judas - In Heaven or Hell?"  by Gary Amirault.   Maybe it will help some with this difficult topic.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html

Scriptures pertaining to Judas

John 13:21-31
Matt 26:45-50
John 18:2-9
(INTERESTING EXCERPT FROM THESE PASSAGES  -
6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
8 "I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go."
9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me.")

Matt 27:3-10
Acts 1:15-26


Historical, Cultural, and Geographical Material
 
The 30 pieces of silver was a small sum of money, the value of a slave. (Ex 21:32) If Judas were really covetous and greedy, why didn't he barter for much more?
Jesus chose Judas, not the other way around.
Jesus knew them before He picked them.

Prior to the betrayal, Judas' only recorded sin was stealing from the money box. The other 11 apostles had accounts recorded of them of sins which included unbelief, lust for position and power, not being mindful of the things of the spirit but of man, all the disciples left Him, Peter denied Him 3 times in one night, falsely condemning people to fire when Jesus said He came to save, etc., etc..

Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.   Judas repented and declared Jesus innocent and confessed his sin.

All these things happened to fulfill prophesy that the Creator planned to be fulfilled at this time.
Many in the 2nd and 3rd century taught Judas hung himself to get to Hades ahead of Jesus and meet Him there because he knew He (Jesus) had entered His Kingdom through death. (Origin, Theophanes, Theophylact, etc.)
Judas was called "friend" (hetairos) by Jesus. A word for friend indicating partnership, comrade, companion as opposed to "philos" indicating endearment. In other words, there was a partnership of some sort involved in this "betrayal."

 
Matthew 24:24 in the King James Bible reads, "It had been better for that man, if he had not been born." In the KJV and its sisters "that man" refers to Judas. But other translations disagree or present another possibility. The Revised Version of 1881 and the American Standard Version of 1901 put in the margin "Gr. for him if that man." In other words it would have been good for Jesus if Judas had not been born. Martin Luther's translation, Rotherham's, Douay, Wiclif's, Tyndale's, Concordant, and many others read the same way. Rotherham has it, "well would it have been for him, if that man had not been born." Well would it have been for Jesus if that man (Judas) had not been born.


Putting It All Together
(MT 16:21)
(MT 16:22,23)

Please note that the text does not say "Satan entered him" as with Judas. Jesus directly called him "Satan," which means adversary. Peter was unwilling for the dark side of the Word to be fulfilled. Death must precede life. Peter was not "mindful of the things of God." Trying to be the nice guy and saving Jesus' life was not the will of the Father. Jesus being betrayed, becoming the Lamb slain, being valued at 30 pieces of silver, and the purchase of the "field of blood" was "being mindful of the things of God."

Please get this one point. Peter was directly called "Satan." Satan had to enter Judas in order for him to fulfill the Scriptures. In other words, Judas was not capable of betraying Jesus by himself! He had to be taken over. Peter did not need the help of Satan to not be mindful of the things of God. It was perfectly natural for him. When Satan wanted to "sift" Peter, Jesus prayed for "Satan" Peter. Why didn't Jesus just pray for Judas? Because Judas had to do what he did to fulfill Scripture that the redemption of the whole world from its bondage to sin might be accomplished! Judas was not a hearer only, as Peter was, but a "doer of the word." Not only was he a doer, but Jesus hastened Judas along to get it done. "What you are doing, do more quickly." (John 13:27) Judas fulfilled his purpose for being born, and when we get to that grand banquet, he will have "returned to his own place." (Acts 1:25)

The Creator of the Universe has bound Himself to keeping His own Laws. The Jews saw about 613 laws in the Mosaic system. In the days ahead, we will see these laws with completely new light.

As I mentioned, our Father and His Son are not hypocrites. They live by the laws They set. Under the Mosaic Law, an owner of land and animals is responsible for what happens on that land. If he digs a pit and doesn't cover it and a neighbor's animal falls into it and dies, the owner of the pit is liable. If someone builds a house with a roof and doesn't put up a railing and someone falls off, you must flee to a city of refuge until the death of the High Priest.
The following Sciptures may not seem to fit this article, but they are very important. I cannot go into full explanation of all of this because it would take too much space. I hope the gaps will cause you to study this out for yourselves.

[9] Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying, "AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
[10] AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME."


The Creator of the Universe must abide by His own Laws. He created Adam, placed him in a place where he could be deceived by a Serpent which the Creator also created. Adam and all his offspring fell into a pit and all died. In Adam all died, including you. According to the Mosaic Law, the Creator was responsible for Adam's death and must make restitution. Satan has deceived mankind time and time again. According to the Law, the owner of a beast that has been known to gore in the past, must die along with the beast. However, if a ransom price has been placed upon that man, he may be redeemed. The value the Priest of Israel placed upon Jesus was 30 pieces of silver, which Judas put into the temple. Lawfully, Jesus, who the Father gave all things to, and who all things are of, to, and through (Rom.11:36), must die because of allowing Satan to kill Adam and his offspring, but Jesus was redeemed with the 30 pieces of silver. Not only that, but the 30 pieces of silver purchased the Potter's field, which became the "Field of Blood," which became a proper burial place in the land of Israel for foreigner, gentiles, that is non-Israelites. This "field of blood" was located in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, known as "Gehenna" to the Greeks and better known as "hell" in many misleading Bible translations including the King James Bible. For those of you who want to translate Gehenna as "hell," you should know that Judas purchased that field called "hell" which the Potter's field is in. I tell you now that the Great Potter of the Universe is taking those broken pieces thrown into that pit as called worthless by most of the church, and He is remaking them, all of them, just like He is remaking you. He is also remaking those miriads of vessels buried in the "dump of humanity" and they will come forth glorious.

Our Father and His Son will take complete responsibility for all the unjustices that have ever been committed on the planet earth, whether they be from Satan, Adam, bulls or goats, or you and me. He created us and He will restore, correct, balance, make good, reconcile, redeem, etc., etc., until every tear that has ever been shed in this world of sin is wiped away and every person who has been hurt, marred, or killed will be restored until the glory of the latter house be much greater than the glory of the former house.

One day, the true story of Adam will be told and we will see that our Father wasn't as stupid, or calloused, or powerless as the modern church makes Him out to be in the "Great Fall of Adam Story." No, our Father allowed Adam to "fall" for very good reasons, much better reasons than we have been taught in the past. What we have just looked at, we have just skimmed. We will have to put meat on these bones another time. For now, I hope your appetite has been wet for further light on the above.


Conclusion
...Another example is found where Mark says, "Now His betrayer had given them a signal, saying, "Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him and lead Him away safely." (Notice the word "safely") "And as soon as He had come, immediately he went up to Him and said to Him, 'Rabbi, Rabbi!' and kissed Him." (Mark 14:44,45) John gives a different account. "Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priest and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, 'whom do you seek?' They answered Him, 'Jesus of Nazareth.' Jesus said to them 'I am He.' And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, 'I am He,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:3-6) Mark has Judas immediately kiss Jesus to identify Him and John has Jesus come forward to declare Himself as the "I Am" and knocked them all down. I think with that kind of introduction, they knew who He was. No need for a Judas kiss after that happened twice. Quite a different story between the two.


To summarize, be careful where you place Judas. He did the will of the Father and fulfilled the Scriptures. Peter, who we all love, tried to prevent Jesus' crucifixion and was called "Satan" by our Lord. Peter, who was not mindful of the will of God, was restored. Was it not Jesus who said, ""For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:50) Be careful about placing Jesus's brother, Judas, in Christendom's "hell." One day you may have to look up to Judas, instead of looking down on him. Peter denied him three times in one night while Judas declared Jesus innocent in front of the High Priesthood. Judas had a very important job in the Kingdom of God. For three and one half years, as a Priest he inspected the Lamb of God as an unbiased man. He was not "one of them" a Galilean. He was the outsider. He did his job perfectly. If Judas really wanted to mess things up, he could have agreed with the High Priesthood and called Him a "blasphemer" who claimed to be the Son of God when He really wasn't. But Judas declared the Lamb spotless and unblemished, the Perfect Passover.  You may not like how Judas got that money, but you should rejoice in what it did for you.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 07:43:19 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2010, 07:08:16 AM »
What About Judas?   http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/Judas.html

         In some English Bibles, Jesus appears to be speaking of Judas in Matt. 26:24.
The King James Version reads "It had been better for that man if he had not been born," but earlier translations (such as Wiclif's and Tyndale's) read "It would have been better for Him (our Lord in His humanity) if that man had not been born." Even Martin Luther's German translation reads this way, because this is the reading suported by the sentence structure of the original Greek Text (as F.W. Farar observed over a century ago--see "Mercy and Jugment," pgs. 458-459.).

         Young's Literal New Testament reads as follows:

the Son of Man doth indeed go as it hath been written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! Good were it for Him if that man had not been born.


         Even if the more popular translations are correct, this verse is no proof of eternal torment, because life does not begin at birth. When the virgin Mary visited the mother of John the Baptist, he lept in his mother's womb (Luke 1:41.) This was three months before his birth, and not all souls are born. Some die in the womb, and some are aborted, but those who are born have opportunities and responibilities the others do not. As our Lord said:

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more (Luke 12:48.)

         It may have been better for Judas if he had not been born--he would certainly have had less to answer for when the books are opened if he not been born at that time and place--but it does not follow that it would have been better for him if he had never existed.

Not if life begins at conception, as most Christians believe.

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, but I see no reason why this statement must imply that he'll be tormented forever.

Jesus said:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me (John 12:32.)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 07:39:39 AM by jabcat »

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2010, 09:51:01 AM »
Good posts James :thumbsup:

But this quoute/conclusion seems to contradict it:
Quote
It may have been better for Judas if he had not been born--he would certainly have had less to answer for when the books are opened if he not been born at that time and place--but it does not follow that it would have been better for him if he had never existed.
If Judas followed the commands of Jesus to the letter what has Judas to answer for?
I don't see how following commands of Jesus can ever put you in a bad place....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2010, 02:38:19 PM »
  as for the betrayer lost his position,and it was given unto

another...there is a theme that runs through-out the

scriptures,like a golden thread[or scarlet].

   First we have Adam given dominion..the to loose it..next we
But did God say you have everlasting dominion?
But Jesus said to the 12 that they would sit on 12 thrones. Jesus also spoke those words to Judas. If Judas is replaced then he will never sit on the throne; and Jesus would be wrong...
So either Judas will sit on the throne and his replacement not.
Or the verse should be read another way.

KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2010, 02:45:25 PM »
Twelve apostles judge twelve tribes. I assume each apostle judges 1 tribe.
Is the apostle that judges that tribe member of the tribe?
If yes and the none of the apostles is from the tribe of Levi as Judas was then that's proof Judas didn't lose his throne.
Does someone have a list of tribes the apostles belong to?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...