Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 49153 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Judas better if he had not been born?
« on: March 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AM »
Mark 14:21 (King James Version)

21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell. 

On a side note, some Exorcists did an exorcism on a little Girl, and the Demon was "Identified" as Judas Iscariot.  Is this just more Satan twisting scriptures, and messing around with popular beliefs?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 06:50:09 AM »
Yeah, Ok, lets dump on Judas, the big bad wolf that took Jesus by surprise. pathetic.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2010, 06:56:12 AM »
There's a pretty big discussion on Judas here -   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7703.msg89480#msg89480     - may glean something useful from it.

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 08:50:57 AM »
On a side note, some Exorcists did an exorcism on a little Girl, and the Demon was "Identified" as Judas Iscariot.  Is this just more Satan twisting scriptures, and messing around with popular beliefs?

Also, could be man's imagination getting the better of him again...In all the scriptural accounts, I don't think I ever saw anything that would back up their claim.  Sometimes demons spoke, but I don't remember them ever being a proper name, per se.  Setting aside all the other things I personally believe about him (one of the 12 with thrones, to be or already reconciled/restored etc.) Judas wasn't a demon, anyway.  The Master chose him as one of the 12.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 09:00:33 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2010, 10:40:50 AM »
TCBMark 14:21 For the Son of Humanity is going away, just as it has been written concerning Him; yet how terrible it is for that human through whome the Son of Humanity is delivered over! It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born.

The red words are clearly about Jesus. Note that those words caps. I think everyone agrees with this part?
But what about the blue/green words? They have no caps so they can never refer to a devine person.
God, Father, Him, Son, HS etc are always written with caps. So the fact that human is written without caps clearly shows it's not a divine human. But I have to add here that using caps is a decision of the translators. Most of the times it's very obvious but this verse seems not that obvious....
The verse 'indentifies' Jesus as "Son of Humanity" and "Him" So why half way during the verse switch "title"
(Son of Humanity is some sort of title imo)
I think it's also clear the blue human (no caps) delivers over the Son of Humanity. Jesus didn't handover Himself.
That leaves the green human (no caps)
First note that in KJV a ! is in the middle of the sentence. In TCB a new sentence starts.

a] No caps -> not divine -> not Jesus
b] The green human is in a second sentence so clearly points to the blue human.
c] "yet how terrible it is for that human" + "It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born." ==> The second part just describes in other words how terrible it is.


Also not that TCB uses 'delivered' instead of 'betrayed'.
Betrayed is clearly something that Jesus didn't approve.
But 'delivered' is a much more difficult word. It can range from something very positive like "deliver a baby" to betrayal. Personally I think Judas acted by orders of Jesus. It may sound weird Jesus was seeking His own death but it was all part of the big plan.



transitive verb 
1 : to set free from restraint : set at liberty : release or liberate especially from control : rescue from actual or feared evil : FREE, SAVE *he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul— Ezek 33:5 (Authorized Version)* —  often used with from or out of *delivered him from captivity*
2 : GIVE, TRANSFER : yield possession or control of : make or hand over : make delivery of : COMMIT, SURRENDER, RESIGN —  often used with up or over, to or into *thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand— Gen 40:13 (Authorized Version)* *the constables have delivered her over— Shakespeare*
3 a : to assist (a parturient female) in giving birth *she was delivered of a fine boy* *the doctor has delivered several thousand women in his long career*;  also   : to aid in the birth of *sometimes it is necessary to deliver a child with forceps*  b : to give birth to *she delivered a pair of healthy twins after a short labor*
4 a : to disburden (as oneself) in words : give forth in words : UTTER, SPEAK, ENUNCIATE *he delivered his speech effectively*  b : to make known to another : COMMUNICATE *they delivered their ultimatum to the enemy*
5 : to send (something aimed or guided) to an intended destination *delivering a short uppercut to the jaw* *the frigate delivered a smashing broadside* *the pitcher delivered a curve to the batter*
6 archaic   : to unload (as a ship) of cargo : EMPTY
7 : to bring (as votes) to the support of a particular candidate or cause *couldn't deliver the votes of his ward*
intransitive verb 
1 : to set one free : DISBURDEN *a deliverance which does not deliver— R.W.Emerson*
2 : UTTER, DISCOURSE *he delivered beautifully but his speech had little real content*;  sometimes   : to express an opinion or judgment
3 : to give birth to offspring *patients that repeatedly deliver prematurely present special problems*
synonyms see FREE, RESCUE
  –deliver a jail : to clear a jail by bringing all the prisoners to trial
  –deliver the goods : to give results that are promised, expected, or desired
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2010, 02:26:39 PM »
Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:31:47 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2010, 03:11:04 PM »
Yeah, Ok, lets dump on Judas, the big bad wolf that took Jesus by surprise. pathetic.
im not dumping on Judas

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2010, 07:47:08 PM »
Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?

I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day.   :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2010, 07:48:10 PM »
Yeah, Ok, lets dump on Judas, the big bad wolf that took Jesus by surprise. pathetic.
im not dumping on Judas

Hopefully he meant the ones which you were describing?   :dontknow:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2010, 07:52:07 PM »
Many Churches use this bible verse to claim Judas is doomed to eternity in hell.
KJVRev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

To me it sounds like a huge honor to have your name written on a foundation.
Very weird someone that is rotting in hell gets that honor....
Unless the twelfth is the apostle that replaced Judas....?
Is that replacement really one of "...twelve apostles of the Lamb..."?

I still go back to Jesus telling the 12 they'd sit on 12 thrones...Judas was one of the 12 standing there hearing His voice on that day.   :bigGrin:

So to me, there's more to the story  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2010, 07:58:46 PM »
KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=> Did Judas follow Jesus?
=> If not there should have been a 13th listner in the room.
=> But I think that's just trying very hard to read what's not there.

KJVLuk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

=> Same verse is a little different wording
=> If Jesus wanted to exclude someone He would have used other words. Or be more vague like when He said He would be betrayed.

So those verses plus the verse I mention seem to be very clear Judas is also on a throne and not in hell.
I wouldn't be suprised Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas hated that task and that's why he wished He never was born.  :2c:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline onlytruth

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 10:04:18 PM »
Here's my take on it....After the kiss, pretty much everyone hated him for his actions,Judas knew he would be vilified,how do you explain to everyone that is what had to happen!Peoples dream' s dashed, political motives dashed.Even peoples identities dashed! I totally agree with the text...To put up with all that ridicule it would maybe have been better to be somewhere else.
Judas knew his calling and everything it entailed and was willing to suffer for it as well.!!!
My hat goes off to him! :icon_king:

Offline Dallas

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 06:16:33 PM »
After the betrayal even Peter acnowledged that Judas lost his seat and they looked to fill it. Just as Abraham and Sarah recieved a promise of child they tried to produce one with Hagar but the promised child still happened.

God promised twelve apostles, with Judas loosing his seat Peter and the rest drew lots to adorne a new apostle, they tried to produce one on thier own, but God being true to His word made Saul/Paul an apostle.

Judas lost his seat and the seat was awarded to Saul/Paul.

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 06:35:21 PM »

 
  I do agree with you Dallas  on that one ! 
 you know I even   believe it was prophecy  being fulfilled ..
 its mentioned in the psalms and Jesus  says  this in John 13 about the betrayal
 
  the part Saul /Paul  is in Isaiah a couple of places 
it was the Christ / annointing  in Paul that would be a Light to the Gentiles /nations
 
the  specific verses  found in ..
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
 

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
 

Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.


Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.  
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.


Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
 

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 06:49:43 PM »


Acts, chapter one, verse twenty six:
"26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles."
The Lord appointed Matthias, not Paul, to take the place of Judas.

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2010, 07:08:28 PM »


Acts, chapter one, verse twenty six:
"26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles."
The Lord appointed Matthias, not Paul, to take the place of Judas.


  Hi David ,
 
 Seems  thats what the  apostles chose  to take  the place of Judas
 
  but the Lord  chose Saul/ Paul  to be the   apostle Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
 
 
 
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:  


For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2010, 07:12:06 PM »


24 And praying, they say, "Thou, Lord, Knower of all hearts, indicate one whom Thou choosest,
25 out of these two to take the place of this dispensation and apostleship, from which Judas transgressed, to be gone into his own place."

26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles.

Lupac

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 07:46:08 PM »
From what I can tell, it should be written like this:

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for Him if that man had not been born.

Meaning, it would be good for Jesus if Judas had not been born... I don't know. We also have to remember, we're reading a two thousand year old book. Better to not be born meant something different to the people of that time. IIRC, Jeremiah said he cursed the day in which he was born, meaning he wished hadn't been born at the time and position he found himself in.

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 08:22:46 PM »


24 And praying, they say, "Thou, Lord, Knower of all hearts, indicate one whom Thou choosest,
25 out of these two to take the place of this dispensation and apostleship, from which Judas transgressed, to be gone into his own place."

26 And they give lots for them, and the lot falls on Matthias, and he is enumerated with the eleven apostles.

  Hi David ,
 where is Matthias  writtings ?????
I see tons of Pauls but not one of Matthias  even being mentioned ever again  :dontknow:  whats is up with that ??

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 08:46:08 PM »
Rosey, this is what Strong has to say about Matthias


3159 Matqi,aj Matthias {mat-thee'-as}
Meaning:  Matthias = "gift of God" 1) the apostle elected to fill the place of the traitor Judas
Origin:  apparently a shortened form of 3161;; n pr m
Usage:  AV - Matthias 2; 2

/edit and Paul

3972 Pau/loj Paulos {pow'-los}
Meaning:  Paul or Paulus = "small or little" 1) Paul was the most famous of the apostles and wrote a good part of the NT, the 14 Pauline epistles 2) Paulus was a deputy or pro-consul of Cyprus and is said to be a prudent man, in the management of affairs, as a governor
Origin:  of Latin origin;; n pr m
Usage:  AV - Paul 163, Paulus (the deputy) 1; 164
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 08:50:42 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2010, 08:49:19 PM »
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2010, 08:58:36 PM »
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
Good question. I think because of his death because:

KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus said Judas would be on one of the 12 thrones. Jesus words are facts. So He knew about what Judas was going to do.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2010, 09:00:20 PM »
 
  Thanks guys apparently   Paul was the 13th  apostle than  :mshock:
 
 I know , no such thing eh  heehe hee....

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2010, 09:04:29 PM »
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
Good question. I think because of his death because:

KJVMat 19:28  28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus said Judas would be on one of the 12 thrones. Jesus words are facts. So He knew about what Judas was going to do.

  So than Did Judas follow Jesus ? 
 or did he  go to his own place , field of blood ?
 
 
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2010, 09:30:36 PM »
I still don't know Rosey.
a] A first thought its a very bad thing to do things that got Jesus killed.
b] It was also the misson of Jesus to get killed (and live again).
c] Jesus said all 12 who have a throne. And while He said that He surely knew about Judas.
d] What KJV translates are "betrayed" more literal translations write "hand over". While betrayed is a very negative term handed over can mean betray but also like agreed.
e] Plus extra Biblical sources also speak of Jesus ordering Judas to hand Him over. But that kind of sources are not for this forum.


So for me ?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...