Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 52140 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #325 on: September 06, 2010, 08:22:19 AM »
Romans 11:32 (ACV) For God has confined all men in disobedience, so that he might be merciful to all.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #326 on: September 06, 2010, 08:27:22 AM »
Galatians 4
 1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world[aion].* 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.


*and, Satan is the god of this world. [2Cor4:4]


Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #327 on: September 06, 2010, 05:55:10 PM »
So then if we are born out of time [born too early], as Paul says of himself--

Paul tells us

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"world"

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


Paul is telling us, Be not conformed to this age.  Elsewhere, we are told that Satan is the god of this age [world].


So, then, it is interesting to look at the characteristics of this age.  Lies is certainly a big one because, as Jesus tells us,  Satan is the father of lies and that is his native tongue.  It is also characterized by the use [misuse] of the law to turn people into slaves.  But, Satan's minions [rulers of the age] consider themselves above the law.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

--Mat 23



And, what truth did Judas see before his heart exploded into a million pieces?  That he had been following the rulers of the darkness of this age [eph 6], and that--

I have betrayed the innocent blood.

--Mat 27:4


« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:18:17 PM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #328 on: September 06, 2010, 06:55:09 PM »
I like what you said about the accuser and the law, we for get that sometimes.

Gal 4:3  So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world:= world:G2889 kosmos, orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world. 
Am I wrong about "world" in Gal.?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #329 on: September 06, 2010, 07:03:51 PM »
You are right, Micah, about Gal 4:3.  "World" is kosmos there--

But, it's interesting how it puts it--

...we were in bondage under the elements of the world [kosmos]

It almost sounds like the laws of physics.  lol

[under the] "elements"

G4747
στοιχειον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.


of the world [kosmos]



4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


--Gal 4


The implications of this are....huge.


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #330 on: September 06, 2010, 07:38:46 PM »
I agree. As for my understanding of elements( rudiment)I have found to look at

Heb 5:12  for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,

Then I have both the aoin and komos covered, I believe.

But I wonder what happened to the original post? How did the disscussion get here?

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #331 on: September 07, 2010, 04:26:13 AM »
 :cloud9: Simple.... :hijacked:  :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #332 on: September 09, 2010, 12:53:38 AM »
:cloud9: Simple.... :hijacked:  :laughing7:

 :laughing7:  Guess everybody got tired of porrrr olllld "Judas"...  :laughhand:

:director: HEY TANK:shakepoint:  Card, Micah and I are still waiting on that "scripture"!  :idea2:
You be out there somewhere?  :JCThink: :clock:  :dunno:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Taffy

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #333 on: April 20, 2011, 06:37:13 PM »
   :icon_flower:   Judas is the Son of perdition within us ALL our eve----  Better is the day of our DEATH then the day of our ""BIRTH", hence why Judah - [our eve] wished it never been  ""BIRTHED!----

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #334 on: April 20, 2011, 07:41:26 PM »
I have a hard time thinking that anything that was born that it would have been better for anyone or anything if it had not been born. Nothing gets born that is not God ordained. How could it? I think everything is ultimately for our good or it wouldn't exist.

And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.  21  The Son of  man  indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that  man  by whom the Son of  man  is betrayed! good were it for that  man  if he had never been  born. mk 14.20

Jacob I love, Esau I hate. Here again I don't see God just having to vent his hatred over one guy. Makes no sense.

In both sets of Scriptures I see the spiritual being put over the physical. It's not that the physical is hated or shouldn't have been created or born, it's that compared to the spiritual, the physical is much less and, mostly, a hinderance to the spiritual.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #335 on: April 20, 2011, 07:57:13 PM »
I have a hard time thinking that anything that was born that it would have been better for anyone or anything if it had not been born. Nothing gets born that is not God ordained. How could it? I think everything is ultimately for our good or it wouldn't exist.

And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.  21  The Son of  man  indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that  man  by whom the Son of  man  is betrayed! good were it for that  man  if he had never been  born. mk 14.20

Jacob I love, Esau I hate. Here again I don't see God just having to vent his hatred over one guy. Makes no sense.

In both sets of Scriptures I see the spiritual being put over the physical. It's not that the physical is hated or shouldn't have been created or born, it's that compared to the spiritual, the physical is much less and, mostly, a hinderance to the spiritual.

cp
same principle about Judas bro--- :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #336 on: April 20, 2011, 08:01:15 PM »
So good to 'see' you again Taffy.

I agree. Judas needed to be born for God's purposes to come to fruition. If it were truely better for something to not have been born, then it wouldn't be.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline WhiteWings

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« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 09:34:26 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #338 on: June 23, 2011, 07:47:46 PM »
  Judas wos born from below....that is the reason better if he not bben born

   have I not chosen you twelve,yet one of you is a devil

    Judas parabolized what occurred in Heaven..when satan dwelled there before He was cast out, he symbolically portrayed the seed of the serpent

   it would have been better ..obediance..instead of sacrifice

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #339 on: July 19, 2011, 08:34:01 PM »
THE CASE OF JUDAS.



"It had been good for that man if he had not been born."—Matt. 26:24.



These words are supposed, by many professed religionists, to teach the endless perdition of Judas. How could it have been said of Judas, it is asked, "It had been good for that man if he had not been born," if he is finally to be saved? If he is to reach heaven at last, it certainly was good for him to have been born.



Many erroneous ideas have arisen in regard to the meaning of this passage by supposing that it had reference to the condition of Judas in the immortal state of existence. This language had not the least reference to the final condition of Judas. It was a common proverb among the Jews in our Savior's day, to indicate any severe calamity to befall an individual, without any reference to the future world. It had special application to events connected with this life. When any fearful calamity or judgment was to come upon an individual, it was common to say, "It were good for that man if he had not been born." It was a proverbial expression, or an expression in common use among the Jews, to denote any severe chastisement or great misfortune, or terrible calamity. The Savior, knowing its use, and aware of the fate of Judas, very appropriately applied it to him. Similar expressions had long been in use. Job cursed the day of his birth, and said: "Let the day perish wherein I was born." Job 3:1-3. Solomon said: "If a man live many years, and his soul be not filled with good; and also that he hath no burial: I say that an untimely birth is better than he." Eccles. 6:3. This is the same as saying, "It had been better if he had not been born." It was a common proverb to denote any great misfortune coming upon an individual; and as Judas would be overwhelmed with sorrow and smitten with grief and anguish, plunged into the greatest distress by a vivid sense of his sins, it was very properly applied to him without any reference to his immortal condition.



Kenrick says, in his Exposition, the expression—



"'It had been good for him, if he had never been born,' is a proverbial phrase, and not to be understood literally: for it is not consistent with our ideas of the divine goodness to make the existence of any being a curse to him, or to cause him to suffer more, upon the whole, than he enjoys happiness. Rather than do this, God would not have created him at all. But as it is usual to say of men who are to endure some grievous punishment or dreadful calamity, that it would have been better for them never to have been born, Christ foreseeing what Judas would bring upon himself, by delivering up his Master into the hands of his enemies, applies this language to him."



We call the reader's attention to the following from Dr. Adam Clarke, the Methodist commentator, upon this subject. He enters into a labored argument to show that Judas may be saved, and that his repentance was sincere, genuine, and acceptable to God. After mature deliberation, he thinks that "there is no positive proof of the final damnation of Judas in the sacred text." This is the opinion of one of the most learned and distinguished divines of the orthodox church. Dr. Clarke shows clearly that the language that stands at the head of this article was a proverbial expression to denote the state of any flagrant transgressor without regard to the future world. But we will let this distinguished commentator speak for himself. He says:



"Judas was indisputably a bad man; but he might have been worse: we may plainly see that there were depths of wickedness to which he might have proceeded, and which were prevented by his repentance. Thus things appear to stand previously to his end. But is there any room for hope in his death? In answer to this, it must be understood,—first: That there is presumptive evidence that he did not destroy himself; and, second: That his repentance was sincere. If so, was it not possible for the mercy of God to extend even to his case? It did so to the murderers of the Son of God; and they were certainly worse men, (strange as this assertion may appear), than Judas. Even he gave them the fullest proof of Christ's innocence: their buying the field with the money Judas threw down, was the full proof of it; and yet, with every convincing evidence before them, they crucified our Lord. They excited Judas to betray his Master, and crucified him when they got him into their power, and therefore St. Stephen calls them both the betrayers and murderers of that Just One, (Acts 7:52), in these respects they were more deeply criminal than Judas himself; yet, even to these very betrayers and murderers, Peter preaches repentance, with the promise of remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 3:12-26). If, then, these were within the reach of mercy, and we are informed that a great company of the priests became obedient to the faith, (Acts 6:7), then certainly Judas was not in such a state as precluded the possibility of his salvation. Surely the blood of the covenant could wash out even his stain, as it did that more deeply ingrained one, of the other betrayers and murderers of the Lord Jesus.



Should the 25th verse be urged against this possibility, because it is there said that Judas fell from his ministry and apostleship, that he might go to his own place, and that this place is hell. I answer,—first: It remains to be proved that this place means hell; and, second: It is not clear that the words are spoken of Judas at all, but of Matthias: his own place meaning that vacancy in the apostolate, to which he was then elected.



To say the repentance of Judas was merely the effect of his horror; that it did not spring from the compunction of heart; that it was legal and not evangelical, etc., is saying what none can with propriety say but God himself, who searches the heart. What renders his case most desperate, are the words of our Lord. (Matt. 26:24). "Wo unto that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born!" I have considered this saying in a general point of view in my note on Matt. 26:24, and were it not a proverbial form of speech among the Jews to express the state of any flagrant transgressor, I should be led to apply it, in all its literal import, to the case of Judas, as I have done in the above note, in the case of any damned soul; but when I find that it was a proverbial saying, and that it has been used in many cases, where the fixing of the irreversible doom of a sinner is not implied, it may be capable of a more favorable interpretation than what is generally given to it. I shall produce a few of those examples from Schoettgen, to which I have referred in my note on Matt. 26:24.



In Chagigah, fol. 2, 2, it is said, 'Whoever considers these four things, it would have been better for him had he never come into the world, viz.: That which is above; that which is below; that which is before; and that which is behind. And whosoever does not attend to the honor of his Creator, it were better for him had he never been born.'



In Shemoth Rabba, sect. 40, fol. 135, 1, 2, it is said, 'Whosoever knows the law, and does not do it, it had been better for him had he never come into the world.'



In Vayikra Rabba, sect. 26, fol. 179, 4, and Midrash Coheleth, fol. 91,4, it is thus expressed; 'It were better for him had he never been created; and it would have been better for him had he been strangled in the womb, and never have seen the light of this world.'



In Sohar Genes, fol. 71, col. 282, it is said, 'If any man be parsimonious towards the poor, it had been better for him had he never come into the world.' Ibid, fol. 84, col. 333. 'If any performs the law, not for the sake of the law, it were good for that man had he never been created.'



These examples sufficiently prove that this was a common proverb, and is used with a great variety and latitude of meaning; and seems intended to show that the case of such and such persons was not only very deplorable, but extremely dangerous; but does not imply the positive impossibility either of their repentance or salvation.



The utmost that can be said for the case of Judas is this: he committed a heinous act of sin and ingratitude; but he repented, and did what he could to undo his wicked act: he had committed the sin unto death, i. e., a sin that involves the death of the body; but who can say, (if mercy was offered to Christ's murderers, and the gospel was first to be preached at Jerusalem, that these very murderers might have the first offer of salvation through him whom they had pierced), that the same mercy could not be extended to wretched Judas? I contend, that the chief priests, etc., who instigated Judas to deliver up his Master, and who crucified him—and who crucified him, too, as a malefactor, having at the same time, the most indubitable evidence of his innocence — were worse men than Judas Iscariot himself; and that if mercy was extended to those, the wretched penitent traitor did not die out of the reach of the yearning of its bowels. And I contend farther, that there is no positive evidence of the final damnation of Judas in the sacred text.' —Clarke in loco.



This learned commentator contends that the repentance of Judas was genuine, and that "there is no positive evidence of the final damnation of Judas in the sacred text." Why, then, are we gravely asked, did he go and hang himself, as Matthew affirms? (Matt, 27:5) We would here state, that Luke gives a somewhat different account of his death. See Acts 1:18: "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." How, then, are we to reconcile this apparent discrepancy between the two evangelists? One affirms that he hanged himself, the other that he fell headlong and burst asunder. The difficulty in question arises from an incorrect translation of the Greek word apegzato, here rendered "hanged himself." It does not necessarily have this meaning, and may be rendered, "was suffocated, as with grief or anguish." Eminent critics, as Dr. Clarke says, believe that Judas was suffocated with excessive grief. "Wakefield (he adds), supports this meaning of the word with great learning and ingenuity." Dr. George Campbell, an eminent Scotch Presbyterian divine, says that "the Greek word plainly denotes strangling, but does not say how, by hanging, or otherwise. It is quite a different term that is used in those places where hanging is mentioned." He also adds, that it may be rendered, "was suffocated." Wakefield renders it, "was choked with anguish." This rendering of the original is supported by high authority, and is evidently correct.



Judas was overwhelmed with a sense of his sin, and sincerely repented before God, carried back the ill-gotten gain, and died of excessive grief, "was chocked with anguish," or "was suffocated." His grief was most intense; his anguish so burdensome, that he reeled beneath the oppressive load of guilt and sorrow, and fell prostrate to the earth, being suffocated with grief. He gave every evidence possible of deep sorrow for sin, and of genuine repentance.


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #340 on: July 19, 2011, 08:56:31 PM »
Judas completed what he was sent to do.
Joh 13:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21  When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #341 on: July 19, 2011, 10:13:11 PM »
  Judas wos born from below....that is the reason better if he not bben born

   have I not chosen you twelve,yet one of you is a devil

    Judas parabolized what occurred in Heaven..when satan dwelled there before He was cast out, he symbolically portrayed the seed of the serpent

   it would have been better ..obediance..instead of sacrifice
Are you saying that Judas is a demon?

Could Judas be a demon.

Did Judas have human parents?


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #342 on: July 19, 2011, 10:32:13 PM »


lol,  don't we all?

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #343 on: July 19, 2011, 10:56:56 PM »
There are scriptures that talk of angels appearing before us, unawares.

Not sure why Jesus called Judas a demon and it made me think as whether the bible actually lists the parents/familly of Judas.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #344 on: July 19, 2011, 11:15:28 PM »
Joh 13:2  And supper being come, the devil already having put it into the heart of Judas of Simon, Iscariot, that he may deliver him up,

G1228 diabolos  a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.

From G1225;  diaballō   (figuratively) to traduce: - accuse
(A channel G1223)

Judas was/is part of the plan and purpose of The Father.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #345 on: July 19, 2011, 11:18:24 PM »


At least Judas held out for silver.
I sold Him for scraps of food and water.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #346 on: July 20, 2011, 09:59:15 PM »
There are scriptures that talk of angels appearing before us, unawares.

Not sure why Jesus called Judas a demon and it made me think as whether the bible actually lists the parents/familly of Judas.

This scripture came to mind , that was

better for that man not to be born.

Then quickly came

Scripture 2

Nicodemus talking to Jesus
That which is flesh is flesh

Then came scripture 3

His belly bowels guts came out

So I sense Judas is a human being and not a demon sent by God
But scriptures says he was filled with demon and/or devil

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #347 on: August 14, 2011, 12:07:42 PM »
Ecclesiastes 6:3

New International Version (NIV)

 3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.


A stillborn child is better than Judas in all his suffering .. I think he couldn't bear his wickedness... but even so God used his evil for good, by using it to facilitate the sacrifice of the Son.

 :2c:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #348 on: August 14, 2011, 05:06:01 PM »
Judas was/is part of the plan and purpose of The Father.

Betrayed: G3860 paradidōmi  to surrender, that is, yield up, intrust, transmit:

Everything Gos does is for good.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Alumina

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #349 on: July 24, 2012, 04:21:09 AM »
Judas Iscariot is burning in Hell, screaming in endless agony and that devil will be burning forever in eternal torment and agony. Hellfire is worse than anyone can imagine except God. If you take all if the worst physical, mental, and emotional torments that can ever befall and have ever befallen any human and all humans at the same time on the Earth, and magnify them a trillion trillion times google plex, that is nothing compared to what the people in Hell will experience conciously forever. Universalism is a lie from the pit of Hell. It is a lie from Satan the Devil himself. Anyone and everyone who teaches and preaches and endorses the Satanic demonic Luciferic lie of universal salvation in any of its forms is an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ and is attacking His Gospel. Jesus Himself warned people that it is better to be saved and lose limbs and eyes than to be unsaved and die without Him whole, and end up burning in Hellfire forever.

Universalists of all forms are attempting to do the work of Satan and his followers: Taking the "teeth" away from God and His judgement. The sting of death is HELLFIRE and the ONLY persons who are immune to this are we who are born again/saved people.

Born Again Christians never have to worry about Hell. The lost do and need to turn to Jesus and be saved.

Why do you universalists attempt to butcher the very words of Jesus and His apostles so you can feel better with your fallen human emotions? Besides, your claim is easy to answer: Judas was a devil and is in hell. He died lost. The 12th apostle who REPLACED Judas was the Apostle PAUL. HIS name is written there on the New Jerusalem.