Judas better if he had not been born?

[WhiteWings]

You have both the words and the context.  It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.

It makes a very great deal of sense. Quicky before I goto office. Few variations.

1] It was better for Judas that he (Judas) was not be born because traitors get kicked into hell.
2] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. Judas honestly loved Jesus, but he got the worst job in history of man. That's why Judas better wasn't be born.
3] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Jesus would never have been born He never had to suffer. For Jesus it would have been best He never was born.
4] Jesus ordered Judas to hand Him over. That handing over turned into a great deal of suffering for Jesus. If Judas would never have been born He never had turned over Jesus. So for Jesus it was better Judas was not be born.

There are many translations and many render this passage differently. Doctrinal bias or perhaps the Greek is so complicated the translator couldn't really figure it out either

Why would the scripture make that statement?  It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests.  We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.[/i]

Agreed. But he prayed this:
(Matthew 26:39) And, going forward a little, he fell upon his face, offering prayer, and saying––My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from me,––Nevertheless, not as, I, will, but as, thou, wilt.

Did Jesus want to abort His mission? No I think. To me this one line is very closely related to 'better not be born'.

[WhiteWings]

For many people the "Judas story" can only be story of a satan like low life traitor.
But there is another possibility.
The death of Jesus was pure sacrifice.
Jesus was tricked by a thief but didn't do anything to escape. That's whyHis sacrifice was so big.
Or.
Jesus ordered Judas to hand him over. Jesus kept full control over His own sacrifice. By sending Judas He signed his own death sentence. Isn't that an even greater end-game for the Shepherd that layed down His life for His sheep.
Salvation/sacrifice under complete control of the Savior. Not depending on a thief.

For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'.

[jabcat]

While I was typing this up WW, you gave an answer to my first question - "what makes this so important".

I'll go ahead and post this as I still think/hope it has some merit.
----------------------------

I've thought a few times, what makes the topic of Judas so important to us?  Also, maybe it's something (like so many other things) that some of the details we're just not going to be able to understand right now - or know for sure.

Anyway, as a UR believer, what are some very basic things I can believe assuredly about Judas?

1) He was created by God and chosen by Jesus to fulfill his purpose in life.

2) He was created by God and chosen by Jesus to fulfill God's purpose.

3) He fulfilled his/His purpose.

4) He regretted and suffered for his sins [there could still be corrective discipline he will yet endure, depending on time frames of judgment].

5) He either has been or will be forgiven.

6) He will be restored (whatever in him is "worth" saving), in the regeneration/consummation.

7) He will live for ever, loved and cared for by God;  rejoicing, and praising Him for His love and mercy.

God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'

For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort.  To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome.  There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend.  Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.

Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot.  But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us.  He is trust worthy.

Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.



 

"traitor" [Lk 6:16]

G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: - betrayer, traitor.

[WhiteWings]

"traitor" [Lk 6:16]

G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: - betrayer, traitor.

You keep quoting that and ignoring all my other posts. That leads nowhere. Maybe you will convince yourself with it but not me.
You can't just take one verse with a vague word meaning (it has several meanings) and base your opinion on that. But if you read my verse list you will see that "handing over" fits in all verses. "betray" doesn't.

G4273
προδότης
prodotēs
prod-ot'-ace
From G4272 (in the sense of giving forward into another's [the enemy's] hands); a surrender: -betrayer, traitor
See I proved it was not betrayal...

[Molly]

But if you read my verse list you will see that "handing over" fits in all verses. "betray" doesn't.

If a loved one hands me over to an enemy's hands, that is betrayal--most especially if I am innocent of any wrongdoing.

[WhiteWings]

For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'

For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort.  To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome.  There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend.  Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.

Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot.  But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us.  He is trust worthy.

And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.

[WhiteWings]

But if you read my verse list you will see that "handing over" fits in all verses. "betray" doesn't.

If a loved one hands me over to an enemy's hands, that is betrayal--most especially if I am innocent of any wrongdoing.

Again ignoring what I said..... 

[Molly]

For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'

For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort.  To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome.  There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend.  Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.

Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot.  But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us.  He is trust worthy.

And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.

So if my husband cheats on me and deceives me, it's my fault for picking him as the person to marry?  He's the victim [of his flawed personality], not me?  Betrayal is a real concept which exists in the English language and it happens all day long.  It's all about character, and Judas had none.


"betrayal"

. To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
b. To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
2. To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
3. To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
4. To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
5. To reveal against one's desire or will.
6. To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... 

For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'

For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort.  To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome.  There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend.  Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.

Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot.  But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us.  He is trust worthy.

And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.

So if my husband cheats on me and deceives me, it's my fault for picking him as the person to marry?  He's the victim [of his flawed personality], not me?  Betrayal is a real concept which exists in the English language and it happens all day long.  It's all about character, and Judas had none.

:omg: ...NONE? 

Where is the GRACE within this statement, Molly?  Who might any of US think we are, to be worthy to CAST such "STONES" at Judas? 

Does not matter what you or I "think"... without the sorrowful act of JUDAS... neither of us "thinkers" would have SALVATION.   

CHRIST Himself, particularly CHOSE Judas... are you saying that CHRIST chose poorly?  Or that He was short on the ability to CHOOSE men who were WORTHY of the office of DISCIPLES? 

CHRIST indeed KNEW what He was doing when HE picked JUDAS... (unlike the real possibility that YOU or I, might mischoose a SPOUSAL candidate)  He knew beforehand that the BETRAYAL would occur, and WHO would be the one to do it, but CHOSE him anyway!

"betrayal"

. To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
b. To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
2. To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
3. To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
4. To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
5. To reveal against one's desire or will.
6. To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.

The word concerning Judas, and translated "BETRAYAL" [#G3860 PARADIDOMI] more means to "give over" or to "yield up"...

IMO --- Your husband cheating on you... is quite a different "brand" of betrayal.  That which includes an act of SIN, within its manifestation...  I am not entirely certain that what JUDAS did was actually, SIN...

Also, ... I do not think that the character of JUDAS was so berift as you describe above.  Otherwise he would have had "ZERO REMORSE"... however, this was not the case, now was it? 

Death of innocence was necessary to deliver the GUILTY... and it was the GUILTY that delivered Him up, to be put to death, ...it -- is/was/will be -- the GUILTY that receive the benefit of that death, and NONE of the GUILTY has the right to judge the GUILT of another of ..."the GUILTY"...  -- John 8:7

JESUS was an elusive person, and had escaped many attempts made by the JEWS to apprehend Him successfully, so they NEEDED the assistance that one such as Judas could provide.

In the end, all that JUDAS "did" was --- provide the location of CHRIST, and indentify Him... I am not totally convinced that it was a SIN to do these things.  I am also not convinced that he had the knowledge that JESUS would actually be put to death, due to his "betrayal"...

When all is said & done, ...what JUDAS did was FULFILL what was WRITTEN in the WORD of Him -- Psalm 41:9 -- He really had no "choice" to avoid this predetermined destiny, which was NOTED by the SCRIPTURES which COULD NOT BE BROKEN -- John 10:34 -- so how could Judas have "done" otherwise?

JESUS spoke of Judas and the entirety of the... "GUILTY" ...when He said:  "Father forgive them, for they KNOW NOT what THEY DO"

JESUS forgave Judas... when will men FINALLY  follow JESUS, ...by doing the same?

...willieH   

[Shadow]

You keep quoting that and ignoring all my other posts. That leads nowhere. Maybe you will convince yourself with it but not me.

This is a very common tactic used when one wants to avoid, or skirt around an issue

*************************

BTW, Great post, WillieH

[Molly]

CHRIST indeed KNEW what He was doing when HE picked JUDAS... (unlike the real possibility that YOU or I, might mischoose a SPOUSAL candidate)  He knew beforehand that the BETRAYAL would occur, and WHO would be the one to do it, but CHOSE him anyway!

Betrayers are a dime a dozen.   Christ could have chosen any number of people who would have--sadly--done the same thing for 30 pieces of silver.

I'm not required to have sympathy for Judas, although I will admit to a certain amount of empathy for him.  Judas knew that what he had done was a sin.   That's why he killed himself.  It was his own indictment of himself that killed him.  The betrayal of the innocent is always a sin.

That's not any foundation that I would ever care to stand on. 


3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

 4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

--Mat 27

[Shadow]

Betrayers are a dime a dozen.   Christ could have chosen any number of people who would have--sadly--done the same thing for 30 pieces of silver.

But he didn't..... he specifically chose Judas to fulfill scripture.....

Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

[rosered]

 
 
 Dont you think its more of a metaphor   
 of those whom sup with the Lord are a betrayer by nature ? 
 I am convinced its NOT a good thing !
 
  and there are many Judas in the religeous systems

  Jesus says Himself   right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
 
 pretty plain speech if you ask me ... 

 not hard to grasp , simple    really
  and  this is why we must be born again , the old  nature/ man /seed  is very 
  greedy and beastly  ,evil even ..
 
  I dont think Jesus  was  shocked when it happened at all , it was expected , Jesus knows peoples hearts , a great discerner of hearts
 
  I do believe it was pity and shame he felt for Judas   all Judas's
  who will suffer the same fate  as the example made in the WORD .
 

[Molly]

9So I said, "I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another." 10And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples. 11So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD. 12Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. 13Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"— the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter. 14Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

--Zech 11




6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

 7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

 8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

--Mat 27

[Cardinal]

  Lot of interesting replies in this, as I play catch up 

[Molly]

20Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'

--John 15

[Molly]

The betrayal of Jesus is what causes the shepherd in Zech 11 to break his two staffs--the staff of the covenant between God and his people [the old covenant) and the staff of the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Jesus was able to say of the multitudes who were jeering and taunting him on the cross, forgive them because they don't know what they are doing,   But, he does not say this of the priests and the Jews who betrayed him, including Judas.  They are guilty of the sin of knowing him [and therefore, the Father], and hating him [and therefore, the Father] without cause.

So you can see how much is at stake in this betrayal. They have put the 'lordly price' of thirty pieces of silver on his head--he says that is his value to them--such a sad statement--and this causes his blood to be removed from their house and transferred to the field of the stranger.  They have his blood on their hands, but the stranger will be covered [anointed] with it in the potter's field.

2And when they ask you, 'Where shall we go?' you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD:

    "'Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence,
   and those who are for the sword, to the sword;
those who are for famine, to famine,
   and those who are for captivity, to captivity.'

--Jer 15

[rosered]

  we also know in the Prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ  in John  17  that son of perdition
  is Judas
 
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
 
  we know by scriptures Judas had no joy of Jesus in himself ...
 
  and perdition  means Strong's G684 - apōleia 1) destroying, utter destruction

a) of vessels

2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

a) of money

b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
 Jhn 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
 
 
 
 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  

CHRIST indeed KNEW what He was doing when HE picked JUDAS... (unlike the real possibility that YOU or I, might mischoose a SPOUSAL candidate)  He knew beforehand that the BETRAYAL would occur, and WHO would be the one to do it, but CHOSE him anyway!

Betrayers are a dime a dozen.

 

This is correct...  

The fact remains that as sinners, You and I compose   of that "dime", Molly...   Joining Judas as "betrayers" of the Savior...  

Christ could have chosen any number of people who would have--sadly--done the same thing for 30 pieces of silver.

"What if's and "coulda's" are NOT what happened!    

CHRIST ...CHOSE... Judas... specifically to FULFILL what was WRITTEN...  As far as "sadly"... Personally, I find much rejoice in the fact that CHRIST CHOSE Judas, for He KNEW that in doing so, that YOU and I and everyone else ["happily"] would be SAVED!  

I'm not required to have sympathy for Judas, although I will admit to a certain amount of empathy for him.  Judas knew that what he had done was a sin.

That's why he killed himself.  It was his own indictment of himself that killed him.  The betrayal of the innocent is always a sin.

 

FIRST --- As I already stated, I am not sure that what Judas "did" was a SIN... It was "sin" unto him, as Scripture notes -- James 4:17  

But if you wouldn't mind, could you name to me which "LAW" Judas actually "transgressed" in giving the location and identity of JESUS to those who put Him to death?  (for SIN is = the TRANSGRESSION of the LAW -- 1 John 3:4 -- Rom 3:20)

SECOND --- there are some that question (and I tend to agree with them) as to whether JUDAS "killed himself" or not...

Scripture states that his "bowels" gushed out...  The very same word "bowels" [#G4698 - SPLAGCHNON -- having to do with sympathy/pity/tender mercy] appears in the following verses:  Phil 1:8 & 2:1 -- Col 3:12 -- Philemon 20 -- 1 John 3:17 -- all having to do with COMPASSION, sympathy, mercy, etc.

The verse which notes that JUDAS "hanged himself" is potentially an inaccurate translation... The word translated "hanged" (in Matt 27:5 as you have quoted below), means "choked"... which is what occurs within the experience of extreme anguish in a human being... i.e. "choked up"...

IMO, a better recognition of the entire report, more describes that He died of the extreme TRAUMA of anguish, rather than "killed himself"...  However, since the majority of the "guilty" need a "scapegoat" they shall name JUDAS as that scapegoat, in an effort to find a SELF justification above him, as a GREATER "betrayer" of CHRIST, then themSELVES.

That's not any foundation that I would ever care to stand on.

 

JUDAS was a sinner in need of his Savior, as well as are you and I, ...so we all "stand" on the "same (betrayal) foundation", whether you care to admit to it or not.

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

 4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself [?]

--Mat 27

...willieH  

[WhiteWings]

For me personally that makes the whole last part of Jesus life even 'better'

For me, knowing that Jesus was betrayed by one so close to him has offered me great comfort.  To know that even this horrible experience could happen to the Lord of glory, and that he could rise above it, lets me see that even this can be overcome.  There are few things more painful than being betrayed by a friend.  Not only that, but those who had welcomed him into the city a week before with praise, singing, and palms would soon be calling for his death.

Humans are a fickle and untrustworthy lot.  But, Jesus never took his eyes off God and what he had promised to do for us.  He is trust worthy.

And Jesus could only have done that when he was betrayed by a priest. A priest He personally recruited.
IF Jesus was betrayed He arranged it Himself. So there is absolutely nothing for Him to rise above.

So if my husband cheats on me and deceives me, it's my fault for picking him as the person to marry?  He's the victim [of his flawed personality], not me?  Betrayal is a real concept which exists in the English language and it happens all day long.  It's all about character, and Judas had none.

You really really disappoint me Molly. I always assumed you were a 'real digger' but you don't even pick up the shovel.
Let me make you really easy for you. Give me some proof Jesus was betrayed. And, nope, a word strongs with 10 different meanings won't do.
(btw noticed many don't point to betrayal?)
I don't need example of what the word betrayal means. I know very well what it means.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... 

The betrayal of Jesus is what causes the shepherd in Zech 11 to break his two staffs--the staff of the covenant between God and his people [the old covenant) and the staff of the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Jesus was able to say of the multitudes who were jeering and taunting him on the cross, forgive them because they don't know what they are doing,  But, he does not say this of the priests and the Jews who betrayed him, including Judas.  They are guilty of the sin of knowing him [and therefore, the Father], and hating him [and therefore, the Father] without cause.

This is hardly true... CHRIST did NOT note who "THEM" was in particular... For He was focused upon GOD and the WORLD in this statement, for it was the WORLD which He was SENT to SAVE... not just those who were "taunting Him"...

The JEWS did not KNOW Him for BLINDNESS was concluded upon them BY YHVH -- Rom 11:25

Nor does the "forgive them statement" of CHRIST note DISinclusion of JUDAS either... this is YOUR own personal speculation, with no notation to support it.

So you can see how much is at stake in this betrayal. They have put the 'lordly price' of thirty pieces of silver on his head--he says that is his value to them--such a sad statement--and this causes his blood to be removed from their house and transferred to the field of the stranger.  They have his blood on their hands, but the stranger will be covered [anointed] with it in the potter's field.

All this is, is your own concoction... you have no real basis upon which to found this.

The BLOOD of the cross of CHRIST, is upon ALL HANDS -- Col 1:20

YOUR sin as well as MINE, was/is every bit as pertinent and as INVOLVED as was THEIRS... so the stones you attempt to cast, are cast of the hand of VANITY. 

...willieH 

[WhiteWings]

I'm not required to have sympathy for Judas

I can't speak for willieH but personally I never asked for that. Neither did I claim Judas was or was not a betrayer. I just keep showing 2 sides of the coin.
I haven't seen much proof for either side. Just opinions. Isn't man's thought just vanity? That's why your or mine opinion on Judas doesn't count. It's about the words in the Bible. (Words=Greek) And for me that's 
But since I posted that long list of verses a few posts ago, I edged more towards "Judas disd as ordered by Jesus."

[WhiteWings]

Rosey! Back from the garden?

Jesus says Himself   right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
 
 pretty plain speech if you ask me ...

For you. For me certainly not. Read post #250. Read the verse list. The word translated as betrayed very often can't mean betrayed. Jesus handed or betrayed the gospel to us?

[rosered]

Rosey! Back from the garden?

Jesus says Himself   right here Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
 
 pretty plain speech if you ask me ...

For you. For me certainly not. Read post #250. Read the verse list. The word translated as betrayed very often can't mean betrayed. Jesus handed or betrayed the gospel to us?

yeppers  back from the weed patch  now lol ... LOL.. okey dokey than  !!  I just believe Jesus Words  ,  that simple to me ,it is by faith I trust  Jesus Words here ...
 I cannot convince you it will take the Holy Spirit to do that
  for you , faith is the substance of things hoped for  , you cannot  see them literally  so , its looks crazy to the  natural mind thats why we got to have a new mind like Christ  to even believe what the Word/Spirit  is teaching us