Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 48775 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #225 on: August 26, 2010, 07:53:38 PM »
(Matthew 19:28) And, Jesus, said unto them––Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regeneration = rebirth -> Physical of spiritual rebirth?
Followed means come after. Or follow teachings.
Judas died before Jesus but obviously his rebirth is after Jesus.
If it is spiritual rebirth then when were they reborn? During His ministry? Or when the HS decent upon them?
If after ministry obviously Judas is excluded.

If Jesus made a promise that included Judas he could never have lost his throne because that would mean Jesus lied.
So Judas never lost his throne. He will sit on a throne or he was never promised a throne.

"As for you who followed me" => The way I read this does not have to mean all.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 08:51:41 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #226 on: August 26, 2010, 07:56:10 PM »
willieH: Hi bro James...  :friendstu:


So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.

He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...

 :iagree:   :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #227 on: August 26, 2010, 08:49:02 PM »
Traditional division:

1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Judah
4 Issachar
5 Zebulun
6 Dan
7 Naphtali
8 Gad
9 Asher
10 Benjamin

11 Joseph
12 Levi
 

Division according to apportionment of land in Israel:

1 Reuben
2 Simeon
3 Judah
4 Issachar
5 Zebulun
6 Dan
7 Naphtali
8 Gad
9 Asher
10 Benjamin

11 Ephraim (son of Joseph)
12 Manasseh (son of Joseph)
13 Levi (no territorial allotment, except a number of cities located within the territories of the other tribes) 

So 12 apostles, 12 thrones and 12 tribes with land.

1 replaced apostle, 1 tribe without a land and 1 Judas (a Levite)

Can't say what but I feel there is "something there".... :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #228 on: August 26, 2010, 08:49:27 PM »
(Matthew 19:28) And, Jesus, said unto them––Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regeneration = rebirth -> Physical of spiritual rebirth?
Followed means come after. Or follow teachings.
Judas died before Jesus but obviously his rebirth is after Jesus.
If it is spiritual rebirth then when were they reborn? During His ministry? Or when the HS decent upon them?
If after ministry obviously Judas is excluded.

If Jesus made a promise that included Judas he could never have lost his throne because that would mean Jesus lied.
So Judas never lost his throne. He will sit on a throne or he was never promised a throne.

"As for you who followed me" => The way I read this it not have to mean all.



 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

--John 17


Only one was lost, the son of destruction--referenced in these verses [that the Scripture might be fulfilled]--


8May his days be few;
   may another take his office!


--Psalm 109



16"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the Book of Psalms,

    "'May his camp become desolate,
   and let there be no one to dwell in it';

    

   and

    "'Let another take his office.'

--Acts 1



His camp, the Priests, did become desolate.  And, another did, indeed, take his office.



"office"

Greek

G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian "episcopate": - the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation.

Hebrew

H6486
פּקדּה
peqûddâh
pek-ood-daw'
Feminine passive participle of H6485; visitation (in many senses, chiefly official): - account, (that have the) charge, custody, that which . . . laid up, numbers, office (-r), ordering, oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.


H6485
פּקד
pâqad
paw-kad'
A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.




Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #229 on: August 26, 2010, 08:57:11 PM »
willieH: Hi bro James...  :friendstu:


So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.

He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...

 :iagree:   :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

fistbump   :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #230 on: August 26, 2010, 08:58:17 PM »
Quote from: ww
So 12 apostles, 12 thrones and 12 tribes with land.

1 replaced apostle

One replaced apostle [disciple, really].  One replaced tribe.

From Revelation 7, the tribe of Dan has been replaced--


5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
   from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
   from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
 6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
   from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
   from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
 7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
   from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
   from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
 8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
   from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
   from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #231 on: August 26, 2010, 09:06:51 PM »
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #232 on: August 26, 2010, 09:07:37 PM »
willieH: Hi bro James...  :friendstu:


So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.

He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...

 :iagree:   :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

fistbump   :bigGrin:
Footbump  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #233 on: August 26, 2010, 09:11:40 PM »
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"

Nah..nice try, though.


21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

--Mark 14

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #234 on: August 26, 2010, 09:18:49 PM »
One replaced apostle [disciple, really].  One replaced tribe.
I showed something similar. My question is why? A most of all has it relavance to Judas.
Yes, Judas was replaced.
Yes, many verses speak about 12 tribes, 12 thrones, 12 apostles.

But tribes among the 12 tribes changed as you wrote.
And I showed there was an extra "tribe".
So we have 12 tribes, but at the same time we have more tribes.
We have 12 on the throne and at the same time 13?????

I truely believe Father can count 'till 13. But I also truely believe Father can remember 12 names... :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #235 on: August 26, 2010, 09:20:55 PM »
willieH: Hi bro James...  :friendstu:


So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.

He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...

 :iagree:   :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

fistbump   :bigGrin:
Footbump  :laughing7:

Footbump right back at'cha.

Although I believe it was Judas, of course I may be wrong.  However, I do believe the "better if not been born" statement was about Judas.  But, I also take into the equation that Jeremiah and Job also said that about themselves, and that it was reportedly a type of Jewish expression of the time.

I also believe a real key may be "in the regeneration" or "renewal" - as in, Judas fell (haven't we all?), but there will be a regeneration/renewal (God will be All in All).  God is capable of anything and everything He desires to do.  All in All is indeed ultimate reconciliation.   :thumbsup:  
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #236 on: August 26, 2010, 09:22:48 PM »
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"

Nah..nice try, though.

21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #237 on: August 26, 2010, 09:52:41 PM »
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"

Nah..nice try, though.

21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
It's just the way English works.  he references 'that man' and that man references the traitor.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #238 on: August 26, 2010, 10:50:52 PM »
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"

Nah..nice try, though.

21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
It's just the way English works.  he references 'that man' and that man references the traitor.
Depends greatly on the translation. Not even that. It's not the translation but the Greek.
And in the Bible caps are used for the divine...


You always seem to like quoting word meanings.
Why don't you quote the meaning of traitor....?
I'll make easy for you.
paradidōmi
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself

I hope you agree there is zero proof for traitor in that word meaning. It's just one of the meanings. (And I don't rule out a bit biased)
KJVLuk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Here we have another word for traitor:
prodotēs
to give away, to betray. A betrayer, traitor
A very nice verse list in the next post....
Stay tuned. :winkgrin:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 11:02:47 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #239 on: August 26, 2010, 11:01:32 PM »
I used my software to search for paradidōmi (Mark 14:21)
And found the word in the following verses. Some are OT but the search was in a Greek translation.

KJVGen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
KJVGen 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.
KJVExo 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
KJVExo 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
KJVLev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
Num. 21:2f,34
Num. 32:4
Deut. 1:8,21,27
Deut. 2:24,30f,33,36
Deut. 3:2f
Deut. 7:2,23f
Deut. 19:12
Deut. 20:13,20
Deut. 21:10
Deut. 23:15f
Deut. 28:7
Deut. 31:5
Deut. 32:30
Jos. 2:14,24
Jos. 6:2,16
Jos. 7:7
Jos. 8:18
Jos. 10:8,12,19,30,32,35
Jos. 11:6,8
Jos. 21:44
Jos. 24:8,10f,33
Jda. 2:14,23
Jda. 3:10,28
Jda. 4:7,14
Jda. 6:1,13
Jda. 7:2,7,9,14f
Jda. 8:3
Jda. 11:9,21,30,32
Jda. 12:3
Jda. 13:1
Jda. 15:12f
Jda. 16:23f
Jda. 18:10
Jda. 20:28
Jdg. 1:4
Jdg. 2:14,23
Jdg. 3:10,28
Jdg. 4:7,14
Jdg. 7:2,9,14f
Jdg. 8:3
Jdg. 11:9,21,32
Jdg. 13:1
Jdg. 15:13
Jdg. 16:24
1 Sam. 11:12
1 Sam. 14:10,12,37
1 Sam. 17:47
1 Sam. 23:4,14
1 Sam. 24:5,11
1 Sam. 26:23
1 Sam. 28:19
1 Sam. 30:15,23
2 Sam. 5:19
1 Ki. 8:46
2 Ki. 3:13,18
2 Ki. 18:30
2 Ki. 19:10
2 Ki. 21:14
1 Chr. 12:18
2 Chr. 6:36
2 Chr. 13:16
2 Chr. 16:8
2 Chr. 24:24
2 Chr. 25:20
2 Chr. 28:5,9
2 Chr. 30:7
2 Chr. 32:11
2 Chr. 35:12
2 Chr. 36:17
1 Es. 1:50
1 Es. 2:8
1 Es. 6:14,17
1 Es. 8:56,58,61,74
1 Es. 9:39
Ezr. 7:19
Ezr. 9:7
Est. 2:3,13
Est. 4:17
Est. 8:12
Jdt. 6:10
Jdt. 8:9,33
Jdt. 10:15
Jdt. 13:9
Tob. 7:13
Tbs. 7:13
Tbs. 10:10
Tbs. 14:7
1 Ma. 3:34
1 Ma. 4:30
1 Ma. 5:50
1 Ma. 7:35
1 Ma. 10:6,9
1 Ma. 11:40
1 Ma. 12:34,45
1 Ma. 15:21,30
1 Ma. 16:18
2 Ma. 1:17
2 Ma. 10:4
2 Ma. 14:31,33
2 Ma. 15:15
Ps. 9:35
Ps. 26:12
Ps. 40:3
Ps. 62:11
Ps. 73:19
Ps. 77:48,61
Ps. 87:9
Ps. 105:41
Ps. 117:18
Ps. 118:121
Ps. 139:9
Odes 2:30
Odes 7:32,34
Odes 11:13
Prov. 6:1
Prov. 11:8
Prov. 24:22
Prov. 27:24
Prov. 30:10
Job 2:6
Job 9:24
Job 16:11
Job 24:14
Wis. 14:15
Sir. 4:19
Sir. 11:6
Sir. 23:6
Sir. 42:7
Hos. 8:10
Mic. 6:14,16
Zech. 11:6
Isa. 19:4
Isa. 23:7
Isa. 25:5,7
Isa. 33:1,6,23
Isa. 34:2
Isa. 36:15
Isa. 37:10
Isa. 38:12f
Isa. 47:3
Isa. 53:6,12
Isa. 64:6
Isa. 65:12
Jer. 2:24
Jer. 15:4
Jer. 21:10
Jer. 22:25
Jer. 24:8
Jer. 26:24
Jer. 27:2
Jer. 33:24
Jer. 39:4,28,36,43
Jer. 41:2
Jer. 44:17
Jer. 45:3,20
Bar. 4:6
Ezek. 7:21
Ezek. 11:9
Ezek. 16:27,39
Ezek. 21:20,32,34,36
Ezek. 23:9,28
Ezek. 25:4
Ezek. 31:11
Ezek. 39:23
Dan. 1:2
Dan. 2:38
Dan. 3:32,34,95
Dan. 4:17
Dan. 7:25
Dan. 11:11
Dat. 3:32,34,95
Dat. 11:6,11
Bel. 1:22,31
Bet. 1:29f
KJVMat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
KJVMat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Matt. 10:4,17,19,21
Matt. 11:27
Matt. 17:22
Matt. 18:34
Matt. 20:18f
Matt. 24:9f
Matt. 25:14,20,22
Matt. 26:2,15f,21,23ff,45f,48
Matt. 27:2ff,18,26
KJVMar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mk. 3:19
KJVMar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
Mk. 7:13
Mk. 9:31
Mk. 10:33
Mk. 13:9,11f
Mk. 14:10f,18,21,41f,44
Mk. 15:1,10,15
Lk. 1:2
Lk. 4:6
Lk. 9:44
Lk. 10:22
Lk. 12:58
Lk. 18:32
Lk. 20:20
Lk. 21:12,16
Lk. 22:4,6,21f,48
Lk. 23:25
Lk. 24:7,20
Jn. 6:64,71
Jn. 12:4
Jn. 13:2,11,21
Jn. 18:2,5,30,35f
Jn. 19:11,16,30
Jn. 21:20
Acts 3:13
Acts 6:14
Acts 7:42
Acts 8:3
Acts 12:4
Acts 14:26
Acts 15:26,40
Acts 16:4
Acts 21:11
Acts 22:4
Acts 27:1
Acts 28:17
Rom. 1:24,26,28
Rom. 4:25
KJVRom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 8:32
1 Co. 5:5
1 Co. 11:2,23
1 Co. 13:3
1 Co. 15:3,24
2 Co. 4:11
KJVGal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Eph. 4:19
Eph. 5:2,25
1 Tim. 1:20
1 Pet. 2:23
2 Pet. 2:4,21
KJVJud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Don't trust that I quoted things correctly and study theyself approved....
And when you did so you will see paradidōmi is very often used for something else than betrayed.
Maybe in all verses but i simply don't have the time to look up all English translations. All above verses are randomly picked but I on purpose skipped the Judas verses because we can use verse we are discussing as prove.
Jude 1:3 Betrayed to the saints?
Gal 2:20 Jesus betrayed Himself for me?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #240 on: August 26, 2010, 11:08:37 PM »
Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:

KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #241 on: August 26, 2010, 11:09:10 PM »
(Matthew 19:28) And, Jesus, said unto them––Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regeneration = rebirth -> Physical of spiritual rebirth?
Followed means come after. Or follow teachings.
Judas died before Jesus but obviously his rebirth is after Jesus.
If it is spiritual rebirth then when were they reborn? During His ministry? Or when the HS decent upon them?
If after ministry obviously Judas is excluded.

If Jesus made a promise that included Judas he could never have lost his throne because that would mean Jesus lied.
So Judas never lost his throne. He will sit on a throne or he was never promised a throne.

"As for you who followed me" => The way I read this it not have to mean all.



 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

--John 17


Only one was lost, the son of destruction--referenced in these verses [that the Scripture might be fulfilled]--


8May his days be few;
   may another take his office!


--Psalm 109



16"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the Book of Psalms,

    "'May his camp become desolate,
   and let there be no one to dwell in it';

    

   and

    "'Let another take his office.'

--Acts 1



His camp, the Priests, did become desolate.  And, another did, indeed, take his office.



"office"

Greek

G1984
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
ep-is-kop-ay'
From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian "episcopate": - the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation.

Hebrew

H6486
פּקדּה
peqûddâh
pek-ood-daw'
Feminine passive participle of H6485; visitation (in many senses, chiefly official): - account, (that have the) charge, custody, that which . . . laid up, numbers, office (-r), ordering, oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.


H6485
פּקד
pâqad
paw-kad'
A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.





Good scriptures molly  :thumbsup: . To me if Judas lost his throne it deosn't mean he has lost his salvation. They are both seperate in my opinion. If you were Jesus would you give the position of authority to the man that betrayed you?


Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #242 on: August 26, 2010, 11:11:13 PM »
Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:

KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works


depart from me ya workers of iniquity

jesus

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #243 on: August 26, 2010, 11:22:19 PM »
Good scriptures molly  :thumbsup: . To me if Judas lost his throne it deosn't mean he has lost his salvation. They are both seperate in my opinion. If you were Jesus would you give the position of authority to the man that betrayed you?
Don't try strawman arguments on me TT :punish:
The question isn't if Jesus would give a throne to someone who betrayed Him. (or make him a disciple...)
The question is DID Judas betray Him.
Yes, I can read a little English and I do understand the word betray. But it's not about English but Greek.
Just like hell or grave, forever or age, torture or ED, etc....
I've picked up my first Bible about 2 years ago. If I learned only one thing then it is that, if one really wants to know things a good look at Hebrew (customs) and Greek is needed.
  :friendstu:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #244 on: August 26, 2010, 11:28:54 PM »
Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:

KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works

depart from me ya workers of iniquity

jesus
It's that verse slightly out of context here TT? I don't believe it was about the disciples.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #245 on: August 27, 2010, 01:45:31 AM »
Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:

KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works

depart from me ya workers of iniquity

jesus
It's that verse slightly out of context here TT? I don't believe it was about the disciples.

No, but your argument is that because Judas cast out devils, then that makes him righteous. But according to the scriptures he was a thief. So if we take this statment by Jesus that casting out devils, does not automatically means one is righteous, then how can we say Judas is righteous? even after the scriptures calls him a thief? and the betrayer of Jesus?.

On that not if the word betray is not 100% correct, does it matter? The idea presented is obviously that Judas went against Jesus, as the scriptures say in the psalms "a familiar friend lifted up his heel against me"

I'm not sure if that is 100 % accurate, but if judas lifts his heel up against jesus wouldn't that bruise jesus, the same way in which the seed of the woman in Genesis will bruise the serpents head, but the serpent bruises his heel.




Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #246 on: August 27, 2010, 02:58:38 AM »
Good scriptures molly  :thumbsup: . To me if Judas lost his throne it deosn't mean he has lost his salvation. They are both seperate in my opinion. If you were Jesus would you give the position of authority to the man that betrayed you?
Don't try strawman arguments on me TT :punish:


Perhaps I should show my right cheek in future with the amount of hitting in this forum  :mblush:, my fair feathered friend. And in anycase where is my birthday present? You who forget the birthday of the lords anointed, your punishment shall be tarred and feathered, but if you repent, then a chicken dance might appease my anger. So if you please, kindly waddle your way towards the welcome room and give me a large birthday chicken dance!.



The question isn't if Jesus would give a throne to someone who betrayed Him. (or make him a disciple...)
The question is DID Judas betray Him.
Yes, I can read a little English and I do understand the word betray. But it's not about English but Greek.
Just like hell or grave, forever or age, torture or ED, etc....
I've picked up my first Bible about 2 years ago. If I learned only one thing then it is that, if one really wants to know things a good look at Hebrew (customs) and Greek is needed.
  :friendstu:

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #247 on: August 27, 2010, 06:18:07 AM »
Mark 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

See the caps H ?
According to CLV "Him" is Jesus. Otherwise it would have been "him"

Nah..nice try, though.

21The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

--Mark 14
Sloppy translation. him ---> Him.
So can we trust he?
It's just the way English works.  he references 'that man' and that man references the traitor.
Depends greatly on the translation. Not even that. It's not the translation but the Greek.
And in the Bible caps are used for the divine...


You always seem to like quoting word meanings.
Why don't you quote the meaning of traitor....?
I'll make easy for you.
paradidōmi
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself

I hope you agree there is zero proof for traitor in that word meaning. It's just one of the meanings. (And I don't rule out a bit biased)
KJVLuk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Here we have another word for traitor:
prodotēs
to give away, to betray. A betrayer, traitor
A very nice verse list in the next post....
Stay tuned. :winkgrin:
You have both the words and the context.  It makes no sense that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born.  Why would the scripture make that statement?  It implies that the choices that Jesus made [and I believe it was all his choice because no one could lay a finger on him if he didn't allow it] were not in his best interests.  We know differently, even though he suffered greatly at the hands of his murderers,--and it originated from them, not from him-- he did not lose sight of the goal.


Hebrews 12:2
... who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #248 on: August 27, 2010, 06:32:42 AM »
I've picked up my first Bible about 2 years ago.   :friendstu:

Glad you did.   :high5:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #249 on: August 27, 2010, 07:52:22 AM »
Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.
He only performed miracles. Mwah, big deal..... :mshock:

KJVMat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Did we not cast out devils by your name and in your name do wonderfull works

depart from me ya workers of iniquity

jesus
It's that verse slightly out of context here TT? I don't believe it was about the disciples.

No, but your argument is that because Judas cast out devils, then that makes him righteous.
I replied with that verse because Molly said Judas never did anything of significance in the ministry.


Quote
But according to the scriptures he was a thief. So if we take this statment by Jesus that casting out devils, does not automatically means one is righteous, then how can we say Judas is righteous? even after the scriptures calls him a thief?
What about the other 11. All clean saints. What about Paul/Saul? That murder even wrote he still was a big sinner. No Judas was no saint. But were the others?
If you say casting out demons doesn't automaticly mean one is righteous, then be fair and don't say stealing doesn't automaticly make you a traitor/killer.

Quote
and the betrayer of Jesus?.
That's topic of the thread so can't be used as proof. I personally still not sure he was a betrayer.

Quote
On that not if the word betray is not 100% correct, does it matter?
It matters. It matters a very great deal. If the correct translation is betrayal then end of discussion. Judas betrayed Jesus. (ignoringing the satan entered Judas verse) But if the translation is not correct then that leaves a huge opening for Judas being faithful to Jesus. One of the best disciples instead the worst. BTW if you look at the last supper painting you can see ranks among the apostles.
Sitting close to a king is an honor. A rank in a way. People who know studied ancient Jewish customs and have  a deep understanding of the Greek see strong hints the Judas kiss was a kiss that friends use to greet eachother. Not a kiss of death you often see in ganster movies.


Quote
The idea presented is obviously that Judas went against Jesus, as the scriptures say in the psalms "a familiar friend lifted up his heel against me"
KJVPsa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

That's not about Jesus and Judas. You think Jesus was caught by suprise? No. Jesus know things. He didn't guess them.
So even if Judas was a traitor then Jesus did not distrust him. He just knew.

Anyway did you read the list of verses? I could be wrong but you just seem to repeat church teachings....?




« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 08:59:30 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...