Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 45928 times)

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Offline willieH

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #200 on: August 16, 2010, 09:26:46 PM »
willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:

Finally, someone who understands  :thumbsup:

Yeah, :nod:  ...right here:

Intriguing find, folks.  I found a link to a book review on an old universalist book, that states the following;

Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born".  The author states "this is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews".  He further states Judas repented, that there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, does he believe Judas hanged himself.  He states the Greek word apegxato was, as he suggests, incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".

More here;   

http://books.google.com/books?id=P4eMmQL6rU4C&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=universalism+book+son+of+perdition&source=bl&ots=iqvqENFfNT&sig=pXfmcjalZxHkNt-8cUrzfKEiohE&hl=en&ei=8BBmTLuIMIOC8gaMlLGfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Online micah7:9

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Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2010, 10:13:38 PM »
 :thumbdown:    :laughing7:


#

# Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.

# Judas repented and declared Jesus innocent and confessed his sin


I'm not convinced, if Judas repented he would not have hanged himself. But given the fact that the scriptures call him a thief, he probably didn't even believe in God or Jesus. The other disciples did not believe in Jesus so why would Judas, by that I mean that when Jesus died, they went back to business and probably lost hope that he was to rise again, given the questions they had, such as Thomas who needed to feel him before he belived. Thus their hope that he was the messiah must have been dashed, when he died.

So Judas just like any other man would have gone to the priests, those that are religious and ask of them for mercy in order to soothe his conscionce before men, had he asked of God and repented such as Peter then he would have not hanged himself.



Peter made a mistake but when he saw Jesus, he jumped out of the fishing boat and greeted him, thus proving that he had repented. Also the place that he Judas paid 30 pieces for is known as the field of blood, and this is where Judas hanged himself falling head first, gushing belly in half.

So what is the future of Judas if he did not repent?, according to UR he will be thrown into the lake of fire, but there is another possiblity that he can repent before this time during the 1000 millenium peace.


Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.

These priests are the same ones that conspired with Judas to betray Jesus, I don't think they'd be concerned that Judas was holy or not, they were part of the conspiracy and like typical villains they deny their part and put the blame solely on Judas, their pawn.



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #205 on: August 22, 2010, 01:59:00 PM »
:thumbdown:    :laughing7:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Quote
Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
Blood money. Meaning the priest Judas, nope not Rob Halford :winkgrin:, sprinkled blood of the Lamb in the Temple......

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# Judas repented and declared Jesus innocent and confessed his sin
I just says Judas killed himself. It doesn't say why.


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I'm not convinced, if Judas repented he would not have hanged himself.
Strange conclusion...
a] If he repents he could have felt so bad he killed himself.
b] If he just followed orders of Jesus he still could feel so bad he killed himself.
c] If he was truely possed by satan for a while he would feel very bad and killed himself.

Quote
But given the fact that the scriptures call him a thief, he probably didn't even believe in God or Jesus.
How did the Scriptures call Saul/Paul?
Judas was a priest. His whole family was. I think the chance is good he truely believed in God.
Why on 30 shekels? That was almost nothing. The high priests would surely payed more because they feared Jesus would start a riot on passover when the city was packed with pelgrims. Nah, 30 shekels was the price of a slave....


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The other disciples did not believe in Jesus so why would Judas, by that I mean that when Jesus died, they went back to business and probably lost hope that he was to rise again, given the questions they had, such as Thomas who needed to feel him before he belived. Thus their hope that he was the messiah must have been dashed, when he died.
Neither did they believe Mary when she told the grave was empty. But what has that to do with Judas?

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So Judas just like any other man would have gone to the priests, those that are religious and ask of them for mercy in order to soothe his conscionce before men, had he asked of God and repented such as Peter then he would have not hanged himself.
The priests would have not given ant mercy because in their eyes Judas has done something perfect. He helped to kill a great blasphemer as instructed in the laws of Moses.



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Peter made a mistake but when he saw Jesus, he jumped out of the fishing boat and greeted him, thus proving that he had repented.
Why didn't he repent by killing himself like Judas? That would be even more convincing repentance....

Quote
Also the place that he Judas paid 30 pieces for is known as the field of blood, and this is where Judas hanged himself falling head first, gushing belly in half.
And again something that fits requirements of a passover lamb....



Quote
So what is the future of Judas if he did not repent?, according to UR he will be thrown into the lake of fire, but there is another possiblity that he can repent before this time during the 1000 millenium peace.
LoF is after the millenium. Rev 20:4-5


Quote
Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
These priests are the same ones that conspired with Judas to betray Jesus, I don't think they'd be concerned that Judas was holy or not, they were part of the conspiracy and like typical villains they deny their part and put the blame solely on Judas, their pawn.
It's crucial that a priest sprinkles the blood. If a non priest would have done it then Jesus would not have been a passover Lamb. And His death wouldn't have taken away even 1 sin. Meaning His death would have been useless....
 :2c: :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #206 on: August 22, 2010, 09:16:15 PM »
Strange conclusion...
a] If he repents he could have felt so bad he killed himself.
b] If he just followed orders of Jesus he still could feel so bad he killed himself.
c] If he was truely possed by satan for a while he would feel very bad and killed himself.


If he truly repented the lord would have forgiven him. This is what happened to Peter.
I don't think no man in his position would be able to handle what he did, but in my mind I think that Judas thought he killed an innocent man but not the son of God.


How did the Scriptures call Saul/Paul?
Judas was a priest. His whole family was. I think the chance is good he truely believed in God.
Why on 30 shekels? That was almost nothing. The high priests would surely payed more because they feared Jesus would start a riot on passover when the city was packed with pelgrims. Nah, 30 shekels was the price of a slave....


The priests (not all) tend to rely more upon others who heard from God, such as Moses and Abraham, thus proving that their faith is not in God but in the arm of the flesh, mankind.
They rely on Abraham that he had revelation from God, but do not actively seek God themselves, but rather make a law based system where the priests are seen as something special. In otherwords they became priests for the earthly benefits the position gives, such as status, power, pride.

The priests probably gave Judas 30 shiekels as proof that he was their slave a symbolic insult, that he being of the priestly order did not even comprehend because, as often happens, when a man is full greed as Judas was, he did not even realize this insult towards him.

Neither did they believe Mary when she told the grave was empty. But what has that to do with Judas?

Not conclusive but it proves that if the others who were close to Jesus lost hope, why would Judas be any different. For none of them had the holy ghost, so it's highly unlikely that Judas belived that Jesus was the messiah, when Peter and John did not.


The priests would have not given ant mercy because in their eyes Judas has done something perfect. He helped to kill a great blasphemer as instructed in the laws of Moses


If he did something perfect and good in thier sight then why did they not offer him any hope or forgivness or even a congratulations. They knew they did evil and they passed the buck onto Judas by denying their involvement.

Why didn't he repent by killing himself like Judas? That would be even more convincing repentance....

That would not be repentance, that would be guilt. True repentance means the forgivness of sins, thus no more condemnation for them in Christ Jesus.

Also the place that he Judas paid 30 pieces for is known as the field of blood, and this is where Judas hanged himself falling head first, gushing belly in half.
And again something that fits requirements of a passover lamb...
.

Not sure what you mean here. Judas the passover lamb?

It's crucial that a priest sprinkles the blood. If a non priest would have done it then Jesus would not have been a passover Lamb. And His death wouldn't have taken away even 1 sin. Meaning His death would have been useless....


Interesting, but I don't think his death would have been useless, I think your refering to "I came to fullfill the law" not sure how crucial this is.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #207 on: August 22, 2010, 10:08:57 PM »
Strange conclusion...
a] If he repents he could have felt so bad he killed himself.
b] If he just followed orders of Jesus he still could feel so bad he killed himself.
c] If he was truely possed by satan for a while he would feel very bad and killed himself.


If he truly repented the lord would have forgiven him.
Let's say Judas very truely repented and God dit forgive him. But if Judas still goes on to kill himself... I think the suicide at least shows Judas was not very proud on what he did. It's also weird Judas betrays Jesus and almost instantly kills himself.

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I don't think no man in his position would be able to handle what he did, but in my mind I think that Judas thought he killed an innocent man but not the son of God.
Judas has seen His miracles. I think he knew far more about Jesus that we do.

Quote

How did the Scriptures call Saul/Paul?
Judas was a priest. His whole family was. I think the chance is good he truely believed in God.
Why on 30 shekels? That was almost nothing. The high priests would surely payed more because they feared Jesus would start a riot on passover when the city was packed with pelgrims. Nah, 30 shekels was the price of a slave....


The priests (not all) tend to rely more upon others who heard from God, such as Moses and Abraham, thus proving that their faith is not in God but in the arm of the flesh, mankind.
They rely on Abraham that he had revelation from God, but do not actively seek God themselves, but rather make a law based system where the priests are seen as something special. In otherwords they became priests for the earthly benefits the position gives, such as status, power, pride.
Does that matter? Basicly you are saying everyone without a direct vision/revelation from God just follows teachings of men.
But even that doesn't matter. The priests followed the laws of Moses. Perhaps they completly misunderstood those laws. But still they followed the laws.

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The priests probably gave Judas 30 shiekels as proof that he was their slave a symbolic insult, that he being of the priestly order did not even comprehend because, as often happens, when a man is full greed as Judas was, he did not even realize this insult towards him.
Judas is supposed to be a thief and betrayed out of greed. And then he asks almost nothing for his betrayal... Doesn't add up.


Quote
Neither did they believe Mary when she told the grave was empty. But what has that to do with Judas?
Not conclusive but it proves that if the others who were close to Jesus lost hope, why would Judas be any different. For none of them had the holy ghost, so it's highly unlikely that Judas belived that Jesus was the messiah, when Peter and John did not.
So basicly none of the 12 really believed in Jesus....?
In that aspect Judas was no different. But shortly after they were told they checked the grave themselfs.





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The priests would have not given any mercy because in their eyes Judas has done something perfect. He helped to kill a great blasphemer as instructed in the laws of Moses[/color]
If he did something perfect and good in thier sight then why did they not offer him any hope or forgivness or even a congratulations. They knew they did evil and they passed the buck onto Judas by denying their involvement.
imo a priest can't forgive anything. Forgiveness is between man and God and between the persons involved. But something could just have snapped in Judas head and just ran to his doom like a lemming.
I want to mention that I do not rule out that Judas betrayed my orders of Jesus himself.  Betrayed is a very negative translation. And possibly not the best.
paradidōmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself

Quote
Why didn't he repent by killing himself like Judas? That would be even more convincing repentance....

That would not be repentance, that would be guilt. True repentance means the forgivness of sins, thus no more condemnation for them in Christ Jesus.
Repentance is acknowledging guild.... Again assuming there was anything to repent for.



It's crucial that a priest sprinkles the blood. If a non priest would have done it then Jesus would not have been a passover Lamb. And His death wouldn't have taken away even 1 sin. Meaning His death would have been useless....

Interesting, but I don't think his death would have been useless, I think your refering to "I came to fullfill the law" not sure how crucial this is.
Yes he came to fullfill the law. And that law describes how lamb should be sacrifised. If not every step of that law is followed then the sacrifice was not valid.
Jesus can only be our passover Lamb if He was sacrifised like an ordinary lamb.
 :2c:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #208 on: August 22, 2010, 10:31:45 PM »
Reminder - according to Rev. E.E. Guild - Both Jeremiah and Job (men of God) both stated "it would have been better if they had not been born".  This is not to be strictly and literally interpreted , as they were proverbial forms of speech among Jews.  Judas repented, and there is no scriptural evidence he is/[remained] lost - NOR, that Judas hanged himself.  The Greek word apegxato was incorrectly rendered "hanged self", when it actually can mean "being suffocated or strangled with grief".  [and that in his grief, he fell headlong]

 :thinking:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 10:36:06 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #209 on: August 22, 2010, 10:50:21 PM »
It's not only a Jewish saying. How many of us heared a parent say the same. We all still live.(physicly...) And looking back the punishment was mild.

Personly I still don't figured out what the verse means.
WHO has better not be born.
Judas because Father is gonna beat the crap out of him. Or just that Judas has be given such a horrible task.
Or was is Jesus? If Judas wasn't born then he couldn't have betrayed Jesus. That's better for Jesus.

/EDIT very literal translation. Word for word from the Greek.
Verse 21
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 11:12:55 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #210 on: August 22, 2010, 11:56:18 PM »
Does that matter? Basicly you are saying everyone without a direct vision/revelation from God just follows teachings of men.
But even that doesn't matter. The priests followed the laws of Moses. Perhaps they completly misunderstood those laws. But still they followed the laws.



No I'm saying that they did not seek God and had no interest, what they did have interest in were man made tradditions and studying the law so that they may condemn and control others. The use the writings of Moses to condem others, they search the scriptures but refuse to come to God for life.

Judas is supposed to be a thief and betrayed out of greed. And then he asks almost nothing for his betrayal... Doesn't add up.


If you want something badly you'll go get it, no matter. Judas wanted that field called the field of blood and it seems that 30 shiekels was enough to cover the cost. The greed of Judas is what made him betray the son of man, regardless of whether it was necessary, the betrayal was made, men make excuses for sins by placing the blame on God but it's our own heart that does evil.


So basicly none of the 12 really believed in Jesus....?
In that aspect Judas was no different. But shortly after they were told they checked the grave themselfs.


They checked the graves, but did they really believe or were they just interested.


Repentance is acknowledging guild.... Again assuming there was anything to repent for.

Of course there was a need to repent, the man spilled innocent blood, he even confessed with his own mouth to the priests.
The scripture says that none of them is lost except the son of perdition, so to me Judas did not repent and lost his position as one of the 12 apostles and now his position has been taken by someone in the book of acts.

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2010, 05:36:19 AM »
Quote
Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
Quote
Blood money. Meaning the priest Judas, nope not Rob Halford , sprinkled blood of the Lamb in the Temple......

That's very interesting.  Was Judas a spy for the priests all along?

What is so strange about this highly placed group--they were trying to kill the Messiah from the days of Herod.

Herod's massacre of baby boys was just the opening act.  They didn't even want him to grow to adulthood.

And, then we see, when he begins his ministry, they are sending groups out to investigate any sighting that could possibly be the Messiah.  For what purpose?  Never once did they show any real interest in what he had to say--except to try to entrap him.  But, they knew he would be the right age, because they knew scripture, they knew the prophecies, and they could just count forward from the time of the Magi.

They knew who he was.

So Judas was one of them--and also able to be indwelt by Satan.  So what is really going on here?  Why would this group be so intent on killing the Messiah?


7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
--Mat 3



"brood"

G1081
γέννημα
gennēma
ghen'-nay-mah
From G1080; offspring; by analogy produce (literally or figuratively): - fruit, generation.


"of vipers"

G2191
εχιδνα
echidna
ekh'-id-nah
Of uncertain origin; an adder or other poisonous snake (literally or figuratively): - viper.


« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 05:50:20 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2010, 08:52:01 AM »
Does that matter? Basicly you are saying everyone without a direct vision/revelation from God just follows teachings of men.
But even that doesn't matter. The priests followed the laws of Moses. Perhaps they completly misunderstood those laws. But still they followed the laws.


No I'm saying that they did not seek God and had no interest, what they did have interest in were man made tradditions and studying the law so that they may condemn and control others. The use the writings of Moses to condem others, they search the scriptures but refuse to come to God for life.
All true. But still in their view they were acting according to the will of God. Note "in their view". So also in their view Judas did the right thing. It would be just a s strange for the priests to forgive an, in their eyes, perfect act as it would be for Jesus to ask forgiveness because He never sinned.


Quote

Judas is supposed to be a thief and betrayed out of greed. And then he asks almost nothing for his betrayal... Doesn't add up.


If you want something badly you'll go get it, no matter.
Ok, that's your view. My view is that Judas could have got much more. But he asks 30. 30 is very symbolic. 30 is the value of a slave. When you read more literal translations you see the followers of Jesus are called slaves.

Quote
Quote
Judas wanted that field called the field of blood and it seems that 30 shiekels was enough to cover the cost. The greed of Judas is what made him betray the son of man, regardless of whether it was necessary, the betrayal was made, men make excuses for sins by placing the blame on God but it's our own heart that does evil.
And with 31 he also could have bought a beer....

Quote
Repentance is acknowledging guild.... Again assuming there was anything to repent for.

Of course there was a need to repent, the man spilled innocent blood, he even confessed with his own mouth to the priests.
Surely Jesus was innocent. But that doesn't proof Judas did or didn't betray Jesus.


Quote
The scripture says that none of them is lost except the son of perdition, so to me Judas did not repent and lost his position as one of the 12 apostles and now his position has been taken by someone in the book of acts.
Ok, I'll follow your thought of repentance. He brought back the shekels. Repentance #1. He walked away and felt so bad his troat choked (didn't hang himself) Repentance #2. Finally he took his own life. Repentance #3
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2010, 08:58:32 AM »
Quote
Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the ground in the "naos"(Holy Place) part of the temple. Only a priest could enter that part of the temple. Even Jesus could only enter the courtyard because he was not from the tribe of Levi. This fact is very important.
Quote
Blood money. Meaning the priest Judas, nope not Rob Halford , sprinkled blood of the Lamb in the Temple......

That's very interesting.  Was Judas a spy for the priests all along?
How did you conclude that?

Quote
What is so strange about this highly placed group--they were trying to kill the Messiah from the days of Herod.

Herod's massacre of baby boys was just the opening act.  They didn't even want him to grow to adulthood.
I think that was more because of the insanity of Herod. He was obsessed with thoughts that someon may steal his throne. Not very weird btw, because most of the Roman leaders were killed.

Quote
And, then we see, when he begins his ministry, they are sending groups out to investigate any sighting that could possibly be the Messiah.  For what purpose?  Never once did they show any real interest in what he had to say--except to try to entrap him.  But, they knew he would be the right age, because they knew scripture, they knew the prophecies, and they could just count forward from the time of the Magi.

They knew who he was.
I really doubt that. If they knew they could have done many things to invalidate the phrophesies. They could have payed Judas 31 shekels. They could have asked/payed the Roman soldier with the hammer to break His legs (as usually was done) Etc (do you think they would kill their messiah?)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 09:02:25 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2010, 12:56:59 PM »
Quote from: ww
How did you conclude that?

Judas was a hitman?  A contract killer employed by the priests? :dontknow:




Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later contract-killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group[1] of the Jewish Zealots, who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers (sicae).



"When Albinus reached the city of Jerusalem,[2] he bent every effort and made every provision to ensure peace in the land by exterminating most of the Sicarii."
—Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (xx.208)

The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sicae, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection. Literally, Sicarii meant "dagger-men".[3]

The victims of the Sicarii included Jonathan the High Priest, though it is possible that his murder was orchestrated by the Roman governor Felix. Some of their murders were met with severe retaliation by the Romans on the entire Jewish population of the country. On some occasions, they could be bribed to spare their intended victims. As with Barabbas, even convicted Sicarii were occasionally released on promising to spare their opponents, though there is no evidence for this practice outside the Gospels, which are largely in accord on this point. Once, Josephus relates, after kidnapping the secretary of Eleazar, governor of the Temple precincts, they agreed to release him in exchange for ten of their captured comrades.

At the beginning of the Jewish Revolt (66 AD), the Sicarii, and (possibly) Zealot helpers (Josephus differentiated between the two but did not explain the main differences in depth), gained access to Jerusalem and committed a series of atrocities, in order to force the population to war. In one account, given in the Talmud, they destroyed the city's food supply so that the people would be forced to fight against the Roman siege instead of negotiating peace. Their leaders, including Menahem ben Jair, Eleazar ben Ya'ir, and Simon Bar Giora, were important figures in the war, and Eleazar ben Ya'ir eventually succeeded in escaping the Roman onslaught. Together with a small group of followers, he made his way to the abandoned fortress of Masada where he continued his resistance to the Romans until 73 AD, when the Romans took the fortress and, according to Josephus, found that most of its defenders had committed suicide rather than surrender.[4]

 

Masada, looking towards the Dead Sea.
In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad. Josephus particularly associates them with the mass suicide at Masada in 73 AD and to the subsequent refusal "to submit to the taxation census when Cyrenius was sent to Judea to make one" (Josephus) as part of their religious and political scheme as resistance fighters:

"Some of the faction of the Sicarion...not content with having saved themselves, again embarked on new revolutionary scheming, persuading those that received them there to assert their freedom, to esteem the Romans as no better than themselves and to look upon God as their only Lord and Master" (quoted by Eisenman, p 180).

In the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii. This meaning is lost when the Greek Gospels are translated into modern Hebrew: Judas is rendered as "Ish-Kerayot," making him a man from the townships. Robert Eisenman presents the general view of secular historians (Eisenman p 179) in identifying him instead as "Judas the Sicarios". Most of the consonants and vowels tally—in Josephus, Sicarioi/Sicariōn; in the New Testament Iscariot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 01:03:41 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2010, 02:52:33 PM »
Quote from: ww
How did you conclude that?

Judas was a hitman?  A contract killer employed by the priests? :dontknow:




Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later contract-killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group[1] of the Jewish Zealots, who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers (sicae).
The priests were more or less friends of the Romans.
The priests still had control over the city as long as they kept things quiet and payed taxes. Usually the Romans didn't really care who did what as long as Ceasar got what belongs to Ceasar.
Besides of that it was cheaper to control the mass with 1 high priests then a 1000 extra troops...
From what I know the priests were not the zealots.


Quote
"When Albinus reached the city of Jerusalem,[2] he bent every effort and made every provision to ensure peace in the land by exterminating most of the Sicarii."
—Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (xx.208)

The Sicarii used stealth tactics to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sicae, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection. Literally, Sicarii meant "dagger-men".[3]
So there objective is to destablize society. In that case their best choice would have been to let Jesus live. There are references to Jesus in Jewish (court) writings. They feared Jesus would cause riots with His in their eyes heritical views. Riots are a perfect opportunity to annoy Romans and kill some.


Quote
In the name of Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis, of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to - in this case to the sicarii.
Real stealth  :laughing7:
So the secret killer called himself Judas of-the-kick-Romans-out-of-Judea-group.

You see the fact that Judas was a priest as complot. Was this his first chance to kill Jesus?
Anyway I see Judas' priesthood as carefully selected by Jesus to make sure a priest would sprinkle the blood.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #216 on: August 23, 2010, 07:06:01 PM »
A small group was very highly motivated to execute him. :dontknow:


Twelve reasons why the arrest
and conviction of Jesus was illegal.

  

The trial of Jesus Christ was without legal precedent. He was convicted and executed even though Pilate (the local Roman authority) found Him innocent!  Let's briefly notice the twelve outstanding reasons why the arrest, trial and conviction of Jesus were illegal.

There was no legal basis for Jesus' arrest because no one had presented a formal charge of any crime; He simply was taken.  Moreover, those who went with Judas to have Jesus arrested included the priests and elders--His judges (Luke 22:52)--among whom were the ones who bribed Judas!

Jesus was subjected to a secret preliminary examination at night (John 18:12-14, 19-23), Jewish law permitted only daylight proceedings.

The indictment against Jesus was illegal because the judges themselves brought up the charge without any prior testimony by witnesses.  The Jewish court (the Sanhedrin) by law was not allowed to originate charges.

The court illegally proceeded to hold its trial of Jesus before sunrise so no one would be available to testify on His behalf.

The trial began on a day before an annual Sabbath (John 18:28), even though Jewish law did not permit the trial of a capital offense to begin on a Friday or the day before an annual Sabbath.  Jesus was arrested and tried on the 14th of Abib, the day before the first annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Jesus' trial was concluded in one day.  Jewish law says: "If a sentence of death is to be pronounced, it [a criminal case] cannot be concluded before the following day" (Mishna, "Sanhedrin" IV, 1).  This was to allow sufficient opportunity for any witnesses in support of the accused to present themselves.  Jesus' trial was conducted in private and completed in less than nine hours!

Two false witnesses charged Jesus with saying He would destroy the temple made with hands (Mark 14:58); yet He was condemned by the court on another false charge--that of blasphemy.  He was condemned on His own testimony (Luke 22:67-71).  But according to Jewish law, a person could not be condemned on his own testimony.
 
 
The merits of Jesus' defense were not considered.  Despite Deuteronomy 13:14, the high priest did not "inquire, and make search, and ask diligently" to see whether Jesus' statement was blasphemous.  The law in the Misha says: "The judges shall weigh the matter in the sincerity of their conscience" ("Sanhedrin" IV, 5).  Instead, the court pronounced sentence instantly and unanimously!

Those who would have voted against condemnation were not at Jesus' trial.  Joseph of Arimathaea was a member of the court, yet he was not there (Luke 23:50-51).  Jesus' opponents had made sure that only those who hated Him would be there.

The sentence was pronounced in a place forbidden by law.  The trial took place at the high priest's house (Luke 22:54).  According to the law, a death sentence could be pronounced only in the court's appointed place.

Most of the judges were legally disqualified to try Jesus.  Some had bought their way into office, according to Josephus.  Also, since they were known enemies of Jesus, Jewish law required that they disqualify themselves so He could be tried by impartial judges.

The court illegally switched the charges from blasphemy to treason before Pilate.  Jesus' opponents wanted Him killed, but they did not want to do it themselves.  So they charged Him with treason (Luke 23:2)--a Roman crime--so the Romans would be responsible for His death.  No evidence was presented (John 18:29-30).  Pilate, after a brief interview, saw that Jesus was not guilty (John 18:38, 19; Matthew 27:18).  Fearing the crowd, however, he allowed the crucifixion of an innocent man.  Pilate did not even pronounce Him guilty; he merely turned Him over to the soldiers.
 
 

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/twelve-reasons-why-arrest-conviction-of-jesus-was-illegal.html

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2010, 07:18:08 PM »
Quote from: ww
Real stealth  
So the secret killer called himself Judas of-the-kick-Romans-out-of-Judea-group.

well, clearly the writers of the gospels wrote that to identify him....as who or what?


John 12:3-6

"Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein."
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:30:12 PM by Molly »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #218 on: August 23, 2010, 08:51:23 PM »
All true. But still in their view they were acting according to the will of God. Note "in their view". So also in their view Judas did the right thing. It would be just a s strange for the priests to forgive an, in their eyes, perfect act as it would be for Jesus to ask forgiveness because He never sinned

From their view they thought they did the right thing, possibly. When they shouted blasphemy were they doing it to please God or were they doing it in order to try and trip up Jesus and kill him. How can we tell, whether they are doing it for God or whether they are doing it in order to kill Jesus, a troublemaker for them, for he exposes the evils of the priests.


Ok, that's your view. My view is that Judas could have got much more. But he asks 30. 30 is very symbolic. 30 is the value of a slave. When you read more literal translations you see the followers of Jesus are called slaves.


So your saying that Judas deliberatly asked for 30 shiekels in order to say to all," hello everybody I am a slave."  Judas surely would know that 30 shiekels is a price of a slave. But my argument is that he was so full of greed, so that fact went over his head.

Jesus says to the disciples I no longer call you servants but friends.

And with 31 he also could have bought a beer....
There's allways a limit point. He wanted the field, he didnt want to blow his chance by asking for too much. Human psychology, when someone is deprived they think that, that is normal, Judas may have thought that others had the same motive as him and that is a strong possibility. How many today would think "hey look this Jesus character is going to be betrayed, so let's take advantage, this is great way to make some easy money, after all hes gonna die anyway". Quite a few I imagine

Surely Jesus was innocent. But that doesn't proof Judas did or didn't betray Jesus.

Jesus said himself, that Judas betrayed him. He that betrayeth me is at hand.
Betrayeth you the son of man with a kiss


Ok, I'll follow your thought of repentance. He brought back the shekels. Repentance #1. He walked away and felt so bad his troat choked (didn't hang himself) Repentance #2. Finally he took his own life. Repentance #3


Only appeared repentance. I opened my bible last night and found this passage

Hebrews 12 :16
Esau found no repentance even though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau had no repentance, so why would Judas. There is only room for 12 disciples and one apostle took his position in the book of acts. Jesus said he is lost. When Stephen died, there wasn't set up a replacment apostle, but there was one set up for Judas, fo rhe lost his place.

This idea of Judas isn't that bad is something of a modern phenomana and I think that it is the devil trying to annoy and shame Jesus Christ once more, by downplaying the sin of Judas and the words of Jesus that he is lost.
2 corinthians 2 11
lest satan should get an advantage over us for we are not ignorant of his devices
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 08:57:20 PM by thinktank »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #219 on: August 23, 2010, 10:38:28 PM »
So your saying that Judas deliberatly asked for 30 shiekels in order to say to all," hello everybody I am a slave."  Judas surely would know that 30 shiekels is a price of a slave. But my argument is that he was so full of greed, so that fact went over his head.
The seller and buyer are not the slave. If he was full of greed he would have asked 300.

Quote
And with 31 he also could have bought a beer....
There's allways a limit point. He wanted the field, he didnt want to blow his chance by asking for too much.


 Human psychology, when someone is deprived they think that, that is normal, Judas may have thought that others had the same motive as him and that is a strong possibility. How many today would think "hey look this Jesus character is going to be betrayed, so let's take advantage, this is great way to make some easy money, after all hes gonna die anyway". Quite a few I imagine
Let's agre to disagree.

Quote
Surely Jesus was innocent. But that doesn't prove Judas did or didn't betray Jesus.

Jesus said himself, that Judas betrayed him. He that betrayeth me is at hand.
Betrayeth you the son of man with a kiss
Handed over... It can mean many things.
Thayer Definition:
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one's) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself



Quote

Ok, I'll follow your thought of repentance. He brought back the shekels. Repentance #1. He walked away and felt so bad his throat choked (didn't hang himself) Repentance #2. Finally he took his own life. Repentance #3


Only appeared repentance. I opened my bible last night and found this passage

Hebrews 12 :16
Esau found no repentance even though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau had no repentance, so why would Judas.
We can't know if he repented. Only God can. And certainly not someone who didn't see/know Judas.


Quote
There is only room for 12 disciples and one apostle took his position in the book of acts. Jesus said he is lost. When Stephen died, there wasn't set up a replacment apostle, but there was one set up for Judas, fo rhe lost his place.
All apostles are dead. Where are there replacements?

This idea of Judas isn't that bad is something of a modern phenomanaI'm not part of that phenomena. But I'm a free thinker. I seek with an open mind. I don't feel restrained by what billions before me said. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying Judas didn't betray Jesus. I'm just not sure. Reading more literal translations, meaning of words, the flow of a verse and other little thinks truely make me wonder if Judas really betrayed Jesus or handed Him over because he was ordered so.


Quote
and I think that it is the devil trying to annoy and shame Jesus Christ once more, by downplaying the sin of Judas and the words of Jesus that he is lost.
It's just the other way around TT. It is, at least for me, even more glorious when Jesus in a way ordered His own death by sending Judas.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 08:27:05 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline claypot

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2010, 04:30:14 AM »
Good stuff everyone yet the Judas person and story, to me, makes perfect sense when I see Judas as that within me that not only betrays Jesus daily, but also is fullfilling God's desire for us all. When I try to understand 'Judas' in a physical way, unending words and arguments come into my head.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #221 on: August 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM »
Was Judas replaced because of his death, or his deeds.?
I think because of the practical matter of his death. Peter's action in using a mechanism of pure chance to choose Matthias was typical of his impulsiveness, and so it was done. But Matthias was not God's choice. So that brings us down to Paul- and he said "I am the least of the apostles" and "an apostle born out of time". As Peter was only trying to maintain that magic "religious" number 12, God fulfilled it in another person- Paul, who was "the light to the Gentiles" for whom the number 12 never had any significance, as it did with the religious Jews.

So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #222 on: August 26, 2010, 05:38:14 PM »

So whose name will be on the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem- Judas, Matthias or Paul? My vote is Judas.

He was the one standing there when Jesus told them...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #223 on: August 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PM »
I vote for Paul, with Mathias second choice. The twelveth disciple would have to be the Apostle Paul, an 'apostle born out of time, ' picked by Jesus himself to bring the gospel to the Gentiles.


After Judas leaves the supper to betray Jesus, the remaining disciples are told this by Jesus--


"Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions [Greek, mone, abodes, dwellings, plural]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know."
• John 14:1–4

Therefore, Judas is not privy to that promise.  The mansions depicted here could be understood by the apostles to be the quarters of the priests within the Temple [Father's house.]



It is Paul who tells us that our bodies are the temple of God.



"For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

--Heb 11

This is a supernatural city built on the teachings of the Apostles, whose names [message] are the foundation of the city.  Judas was never an apostle, nor did he ever give any foundational teachings.

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

• Revelation 21

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #224 on: August 26, 2010, 07:49:15 PM »
I vote for Paul, with Mathias second choice.
Mathias wasn't chosen by Father or Son so imo he has no chance for a throne.

What if there are 13 thrones?
I know the verses are abour 12 tribes; but isn't there a missing tribe. Judged by the missing apostle  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...