willieH: Hi thinktank...
Thanks for answering...
Please don't recieve this as a "reprimand"... rather it is intended to be a edification...
One thing which I IMMEDIATELY have noticed is that this answer of yours is BARREN of Scripture... Indeed if we are discussing Scriptural premises, then those Scriptures should be REFERENCED as the basis for our discussion... and if an observation of them is found to be variant between us, then we have already proposed the reference for the other to RECONSIDER...
God will was that Sodom be saved
But mans will to sin made that city destroyed, for God only desired one single righteous person to save it. See that GOD DESIRED, but man did not take heed and choose sin, therefore destruction
Man DID "choose" destruction, but that was already upon the AGENDA of the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS which are DONE according to the WILL and COUNSEL of YHVH
-- Isaiah 46:10 -- Eph 1:11
I beg to differ for the following Scriptural reason:
I do not believe --- "God's will was that Sodom be saved"...Matt 11:23
--- and thou Capernaum which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell [hades] for ...IF... the MIGHTY WORKS [God's works] which have BEEN DONE IN THEE, had ...BEEN DONE in SODOM, ...it would have REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.
This verse in itself notes that the WILL of GOD decided NOT
to do the WORKS which would have "saved Sodom"... rather that He WITHHELD
those "saving works" according to His agenda, not according to the "mischoosings" of men/women which were "done IN SODOM".
Although I can add to that (that which has already been proposed by me), ...that ALL THINGS are DONE
according to the WILL of YHVH
God -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 46:10
Also Jer 10:23 -- Prov 16:9 -- Prov 20:24
-- ALL CONCUR that GOD
DIRECTS the steps of MEN... Men percieve "choices", but the STEP they "actually take" is DIRECTED
In these 3 verses there is no indication in ANY of these verses, that only the "STEPS of Righteousness" are "DIRECTED", rather it GENERALIZES and GROUPS all "STEPS" of MEN, together.Rom 9:21
-- notes GOD MAKING
both "honorable" and "dishonorable" vessels... (the vessels are not "making themselves")... of the SAME LUMP.
Most "browse" the Scriptures instead of truly, with an open heart, ...STUDY them, ...taking "religious tidbits" with them in that "browsing" and involving those "tidbits" in their observations and conclusions.
The "browser" will read -- Eph 1:11
-- and insert the "religious tidbit" -- EXCEPT -- this or that...
The "browser" will read -- John 1:3
-- and disinclude EVIL things.
The "browser" will read -- Col 1:20
-- and yet think that there are things OUTSIDE of this description... and are NOT reconciled...
The "browser" will read -- Col 1:16
-- and claim that EVIL is NOT of God, and that anything associated with "EVIL" is a problem "created" by "satan" in conjunction with "men"... and that GOD had nothing to do with it...
Likewise God Desired for Nineveh to be saved, but the people in Nineveh actually listened and repented and God in his mercy did not destroy Nineveh because of mans repentance. For even greater proof, man decides to sin later in Nineveh and God destroys Nineveh.
Again, this is a view which does not take into consideration OTHER Scripture... for this is SAID in Scripture of REPENTENCE:Rom 2:4
--- or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, ...NOT KNOWING... that the ...GOODNESS of GOD -- LEADETH THEE to ...REPENTENCERepentence
is not a "choice" man makes of his own volition. Indeed it is the opposite. For in order for "repentence" to take place... one must FIRST be DRAGGED to the WORD
-- John 6:44
-- then the WORD
either opens revelation
to the one "dragged", which leads to "repentence" or it does NOT, of its DECISIVE and DIRECTIVE power -- Matt 11:27
Religious leaders are allways saying God is in control etc. But God is in control the same way, that a parent is in conrol of wayward children, there is only so much control. The child is the one that decides, chooses his own fate, the parent wants the child to become a doctor, but the child wants to be a fireman, will the parent win?
This is reducing God to the level of MAN, thinktank... His WAYS and THOUGHTS are FAR ABOVE ours...
"Religious leaders" are exactly that... leaders of RELIGION... and the RELIGIOUS... GOD IS IN CONTROL... if He is NOT, then we are all in eternally deep ...poo-poo!
ALL THINGS are manifest of GOD... for HE is the maker of ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16
-- and the consistence of these things, be they GOOD or EVIL is still within Him -- Col 1:20 -- Acts 17:28
... The "religious leaders" speak DOUBLE TALK... stating GOD to be IN CONTROL... then naming EXCEPTIONS.
Either He is IN CONTROL of ALL things as the Scripture states -- Rom 9:16-19
-- or He has let things be "IN CONTROL" of THEMSELVES... which then opens the can of worms... that these things, in their FINITE state ARE NOW HELD ACCOUNTIBLE for ETERNAL matters and/or ETERNAL standards...
For it was the decision of the MAKER of them, to "let them" go their own "way"... which "decision" once again, STILL lays at the foot of the MAKER.EXAMPLE
--- If I were to place a LOADED gun in a 4yr olds hand, and tell him not to shoot his sister, and indeed he then proceeds to kill his sister... It is not the CHILD that is held ACCOUNTABLE, it is ME for enabling him to DO what HE DID.EXAMPLE
-- Please dont get me wrong, I am totally against the use of addictive drugs... but the following must be considered as to GOD's part in their use:
GOD has created HEROIN (for even though the poppy must be processed, GOD created the poppy, as well as the intellect and information to process it into HEROIN) to be an ADDICTIVE drug, which will affect the Human body in altering and extremely PLEASUREABLE ways, ...plus become NEEDED by that body after a short time of use...
The HEROIN addict is not TOTALLY "accountable" to GOD for his use of this drug, nor its affects on the body, for without GOD's decisions concerning the effectual ingredients and information necessary to process, HEROIN --
- (1) the drug would not even "BE"... and therefore,
- (2) the drug would NOT be addictive... and therefore,
- (3) use of it would not avail extremely PLEASUREABLE effects, and therefore ENTICING the user for RE-USE, which then results in ADDICTION...
The child chooses to scream, to be quiet, to walk, to talk, to move his left hand and his right hand, God can only influence us, not that he cannot control us, but that is not in his nature.
You cannot prove ANY of this... please show Scriptural support for:
- (1) that HE is NOT in CONTROL of ALL THINGS -- [He is the maker of them, and they are made as they are as a matter of HIS WILL -- Rom 9:19 -- having MERCY upon them or NOT according to HIS WILL, not ours]
- (2) that HE "cannot" CONTROL us because "that is not in His NATURE" -- [Rom 11:32 -- God has concluded ALL in UNBELIEF -- whatsoever is NOT of faith (unbelief) is SIN, therefore GOD decided ALL to be SINNERS of His decision -- Rom 14:23 -- Heb 11:6 -- so HE has placed us all in a position where we CANNOT PLEASE Him... of HIS WILL, not ours.)
- (3) that HE only "influences" us... [I have already shown that MAN is UNABLE to "understand" -- HIS OWN WAY -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24]
You see God has created us in his own image, we make choices in life and this holy book the bible tells us in advanced what choices are good and what choices lead to destruction.
That means that man can choose his own fate, even though God is the alpha and omega and knows the begining from the end, he does not know which choice we will make in certain conditions. He knows all things and knows every parameter and every potential decision you will ever make. Some choices God says are definite, because he knows where the person is in development and has calculated that the person is 100% likely to make that certain decision.
You have established GOD -- as a "guesser" of outcomes... "calculating" instead of KNOWING
... Even proposing "odds"... that the outcome will BE as He "guesses"...
What if God has "guessed" incorrectly about ADVERSITY/AFFLICTION never rising again? -- Nah 1:9
-- Or that "death, pain, and sorrow" will "pass away"? -- Rev 21:4
In saying this, you demote ALMIGHTY as a title of YHVH
... for you have stated that there are things "HE DOES NOT KNOW"... How can He BE "almighty" and the "might" of "knowing certain things", be apart from Him?
Then you say this:
How many times have prophecies failed?
People get prophecies that they are going to get a promotion in work, but the prophecy was dependant on that person working hard and diligent and also seeking God. So the person works hard and diligent and does not get the job, they then think that the person who did the prophecy is a false prophet, but the reality was that the person failed in his task to seek God and missed out on a vital element.
You make the FULFILLMENT of "prophecy", dependent upon US!! ...how carnally amiss is this?
Because a "prophecy" is made by any given "man", does NOT mean that said "prophecy" was of GOD -- Jer 29:9
God does not "prophesy" over the self oriented FINITE things which are failingly embedded in the SELFISHNESS of MEN (like getting a "raise" at work, or "a date" with the cute girl in accounting)...
He prophecies over THINGS which are of ETERNAL matters... which are pointed toward the CHARACTER and HEARTS of MEN, ...not toward the MAMMON (in whatever way prosperity is individually beheld) of MEN...
If there is any INDIVIDUAL GAIN or prosperity involved in the PROPHECY (i.e. a better job, a new car, a 20K seat arena to preach in, etc)... then the prophecy is not DIVINELY originated...
GOD is not concerned with you
winning the lotto... You shall only "win it" if it is PART of HIS PLAN for ALL... and that "winning" brings about the FULFILLMENT of His plan for ALL in its particular and predesigned, way.
God says Choose this day whom you will serve?
No man can "walk" in the pathway of RIGHTEOUSNESS unless he/she is ordained to do so -- Eph 2:10 -- Jer 10:23
-- Until GOD calls us OUT of DARKNESS (in which HE put us -- Rom 11:23
)... then we shall continue to LOVE the (faithless) DARKNESS and gravitate TO ITS proposals...
Willie, it is GODS will for man to be enjoying ourself and to be in good health and to seek him, but yet how many people do that?
If God writes everything in histroy then how can you answer a person who asks why did that earthquake happened?
Judas betrayed Jesus for he was desperate for money and Satan took advantage of his weakness, if he wasnt desperate for money, why betray him for money? and why betray him for only 30 pieces.
These do not establish your arguement, it only questions your own "answers", thinktank.
Why did he betray him for only 30 pieces of silver, thinktank?
It is YOU which need and answer for this question for THAT is the crux of your "vision" of the betrayal...
The betrayal was NOT about money, nor about JUDAS, nor was any mythical character RELIGION has invented called "satan" involved... It was about the FULFILLING of the PROPHECIES which made of CHRIST
God... and COMPLETING the RECONCILIATION of MAN to GOD...
JUDAS was the NECESSARY ONE (for IN FACT, not imagination he WAS the ONE) USED by GOD, in order that the FULFILLMENT
of the prophesied SACRIFICE of CHRIST
, be made...
Maybe you are correct about God needing someone like Judas to fullfill scripture, but that doesn't mean that what I say is not true, both can be correct. For Jesus said
Woe to that man that betray me (which supports my idea) but nevertheless, scripture must be fullfilled (which supports your idea)
MAYBE? Please tell us HOW it could've been accomplished OTHERWISE, thinktank!
Your "idea" is FICTIONAL, ...which supposes that ["maybe"] ANYONE "could've" betrayed CHRIST
, which is completely based in YOUR IMAGINATION... and has NO SCRIPTURAL support.
My "idea" however, ...is SCRIPTURAL, ...which is that JUDAS betrayed CHRIST
and was a FACTUAL ELEMENT of the FULFILLMENT
of the Scripture ... and THAT, is based in REALITY and TRUTH.
You said that my idea of Judas not wanting to live is just my imagination, you are correct and I did say that it is just a possibility, however when it comes to Judas being the betrayer I belive that God forknew in his eternal wisdom all the potential people that could have betrayed Jesus, and knew that Judas could be one of them.
This is self decieving.
How is it that God's "foreknowledge" can KNOW all the potential persons, but NOT the one who actually BETRAYED? Does God need some new "glasses"?
You make GOD one which is "sort of" ALMIGHTY and "sort of" KNOWLEDGEABLE, but because of only being "SORT of these things" -- His FOREKNOWLEDGE was INCOMPLETE and WITHOUT the ABOLUTE information that JUDAS would be the ONE which actually BETRAYED... guessing, like at the horse track, the culmination of the most IMPORTANT [bar none] event in HISTORY. AND, that this IMPERFECT and INCOMPLETE "foreknowledge" --- "could've" eluded God's best "guess"!
more at this thinking... And if you indeed are correct... then ALL scenarios which are projected in ETERNITY are made of the same potentially FALLIBLE guesses...
In fact I liken God to one of those books that has an alternative ending, where God knows each and every ending, but we as people choose which path we go upon. I think that people have destinies, but the path to those destinies is varied and sometimes the destiny is shunned altogether and man goes his own way.
You are welcome to "liken" anything you wish... that does not mean that your "likening" is valid, nor contains truth. TRUTH (thank God) must be based upon what IS WRITTEN in HIS WORD
... not upon your "likening"...
Most everything you have stated in this reply is UNSCRIPTURAL and barren of its support... rather is founded upon you "likening"... and IMAGINATIONS...
Maybe I am wrong, but the scriptures do imply that we have a choice in life and demonstrates Gods greatness, by giving all of us freedom of choice.FIRST
--- Our seeking is not about who is right and who is wrong, that is SELF-oriented VANITY...
I do not seek to be correct over you... I seek us both to find the TRUTH.
For me, it is about seeking the removal of the VEIL, that understanding of the INFINITE and ALL KNOWING WORD
of GOD, be REVEALED by It
--- to us --- that we may step even ONE WORD
closer to the WRITER
--- The WORD
"MAKES" one FREE
, bro... but from what?
(hint: from self)
As far as "FREEDOM" is concerned and attached to "choosing"... to "choose" amiss is NOT "freedom" it is SIN... and only the WORD
can FREE the "mischooser" from his "mischoosing" -- John 8:32
Computers, Dogs and snails, birds, all "choose"... Choice in itself, is not evidence of CONTROL or of FREEDOM...
A murderer "chooses" to KILL... is he FREE committing murder, or in fact, in BONDAGE to the desire to murder?
CHOOSING, is only an inherent characteristic which is GIVEN as an ability within the Created entity which possesses within it, the NEED to "choose" in order to manifest living... and which can only "choose" from options provided to him/her/it... also GIVEN by the Creator...THIRD
--- For that matter, ...GOD is the maker
of ALL THINGS
which are "MADE
" -- John 1:3
--- including the "choices" (good or evil) which are in fact "things" -- which are, ..."MADE
Peace brother tank!