Author Topic: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings  (Read 8549 times)

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laren

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2008, 03:06:47 AM »
Wow...very good, bobf--
so, for every generation, the sun (the light/understanding/truth) from God is darkened/hidden, the moon (church/reflecting the light of God) is turned to blood/not giving light anymore-- and the stars fall (leaders/prophets in the church also darkened/not giving "light upon the earth" any longer, as was their purpose in Genesis)...."the powers" being the ordained powers of God being shaken, so that whatever cannot be shaken is all that remains....interesting!

and then...if the Lord comes in your lifetime (comes into you) then the light/understanding/truth comes back...? Is this what you are saying?


but then why would Paul be looking for a soon coming of Christ, when he had Truth already revealed in him?? 

and if every generation is "is,was and will be", then what is the "coming" of Christ other than our "personal physical death"??  as clearly, Paul, Peter, John etc had the Spirit come to them, they were still awaiting a future coming???




laren

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2008, 03:14:55 AM »
So-- the flesh is burned up, but the memory of the flesh is what Isaiah is talking about here--right? Very interesting-- thanks to bobf and willieH for giving your understanding on this! Does this help in explaining that annoyingly difficult verse:

Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

?

Joyce :)


Yes, I also understand Matthew 24:28 in the same light, though I think the Isaiah 66 verse is looking back on what has already occurred, while the Matthew verse is looking forward to what will occur, kind of like this:

Isaiah 46:11  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

For example, for the prodigal son, the ravenous bird was the judgment of God, his reaping of a pig-life that he had sown.  The carcase was the carnal spirit in the prodigal son that loved riotous living and squandering of his inheritance.

I take Matthew 24 in it's entirety as using physical symbols to represent spiritual events in our lives.  Not that I necessarily undertand all the symbols, wish I did.

IMO that's why Jesus said "this generation will not pass till all be fulfillled" because it was all fulfilled in that generation and continues be fulfilled in each generation in the lives of each person being coverted to Christ.

Example:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Was fulfilled in believers leading up to the day of pentecost.

Acts 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:  18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you study all occurances of the phrase "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood" you can get an idea of what's happening.

I believe it's about judgment on the house of God, not about AD 70 and all that.  Vulture meet carcase.


So bobf, are you seeing all of Matthew 24 as the events leading up to pentacost, our own personal pentacost?? 

but the soon coming of Christ, spoken by the apostles after pentacost as a whole another prophecy yet to be fulfilled, and not included in Matthew 24??


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.


is this tribulation not the same as this, spoken after pentacost??

Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 03:18:44 AM by laren »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2008, 06:42:16 AM »
Wow...very good, bobf--
so, for every generation, the sun (the light/understanding/truth) from God is darkened/hidden, the moon (church/reflecting the light of God) is turned to blood/not giving light anymore-- and the stars fall (leaders/prophets in the church also darkened/not giving "light upon the earth" any longer, as was their purpose in Genesis)...."the powers" being the ordained powers of God being shaken, so that whatever cannot be shaken is all that remains....interesting!

and then...if the Lord comes in your lifetime (comes into you) then the light/understanding/truth comes back...? Is this what you are saying?


What you describe is exactly how Mike Vinson from http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/ understands the "sun, moon, stars" being darkened.

My understanding is that the 'sun, moon, stars' are symbols of idols in our lives.  Created things of majesty that might draw us to worship them.  I have trouble seeing 'the sun' in the context of 'sun, moon, stars' as representing God or God's true light because of the following verses which equate it with idol worship.

Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven....26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land 

2 Kings 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned Incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets and to all the host of heaven.

Job 31:26 Have I looked at the sun shining in the skies, or the moon walking down its silver pathway, 27 and been secretly enticed in my heart to worship them? 28 If so, I should be punished by the judges, for it would mean I had denied the God of heaven.

Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


If I worship the 'sun, mood, stars' what does God do?  He sends me off to serve my dead gods.

Deuteronomy 4:27  And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

If God gives me manna (Christ) but I reject it and insist on flesh (my idol) then God gives me that flesh until the stench of it comes out my nostrils (sun, moon, stars darkened).

Numbers 11:18 And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for [it was] well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat. 19  Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days; 20 But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?

If you read about Israel's "lovers" in the OT imo those "lovers" equate to "sun, moon, stars".  Both equate to spiritual adultery.

So in a nutshell, God's judgment demontrates to us that our idols, whatever they happend to be, are dead gods.  For the prodigal son it was 'riotous living'.

I'm not saying the other interpretation is wrong.  I just don't see it clearly.

I emailed Mike Vinson about it a long time ago. 

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/symbols_pos_neg.php

« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 06:50:07 AM by bobf »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2008, 08:15:44 AM »
but then why would Paul be looking for a soon coming of Christ, when he had Truth already revealed in him??

Quote
as clearly, Paul, Peter, John etc had the Spirit come to them, they were still awaiting a future coming???

The spiritual coming of Christ to each person doesn't negate Christ's future coming in the history of mankind.

This verse shows that Christ comes to us on a personal basis.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Quote
....and if every generation is "is,was and will be", then what is the "coming" of Christ other than our "personal physical death"??

I don't think it's physical death at all.

1. as thief in the night (judgment, wrath)
2. the revelation of Christ in us

If these verses are only about the one-time coming of Christ in history (say 1000 years from now) how can I obey any of these verses?  They have nothing to do with me.

Luke 21:19  In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


If this passage is about a one-time coming of Christ in history, then it does not apply to most of mankind.  Many will have watched, but the Lord did not come while they were watched.  Many will have slept, but the Lord did not come while they were sleeping.

Mark 13:35  Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36  Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 08:20:05 AM by bobf »

joyful1

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2008, 03:02:37 PM »
:mshock: THANKS bobf!! Now I'm totally messed up!! LOL!!!
I've got to do some "re-thinking" here and I'm not ashamed to say it....your comments are good arguments and I need to get to the bottom of this!

One comment on "Sun" however :

Malachi 4
 1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Sun
H8121
שׁמשׁ
shemesh
sheh'-mesh
From an unused root meaning to be brilliant; the sun; by implication the east; figuratively a ray, that is, (architecturally) a notched battlement: -  + east side (-ward), sun ([rising]), + west (-ward), window. See also H1053.

I see where the YLT, on the other hand, does NOT capitalize "SUN":

Mal 4:1  For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
Mal 4:2  And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness--and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
...........
It (YLT) seems to be equating the "sun" with the Day of The Lord and NOT the Lord himself?? If that is true--wow...THIS verse would have exposed THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR BURNING....and gone against the "hell" doctrine!! whoah!
Joyce :)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 03:13:01 PM by joyful1 »

laren

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2008, 03:30:04 PM »
but then why would Paul be looking for a soon coming of Christ, when he had Truth already revealed in him??

Quote
as clearly, Paul, Peter, John etc had the Spirit come to them, they were still awaiting a future coming???

The spiritual coming of Christ to each person doesn't negate Christ's future coming in the history of mankind.

This verse shows that Christ comes to us on a personal basis.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Quote
....and if every generation is "is,was and will be", then what is the "coming" of Christ other than our "personal physical death"??

I don't think it's physical death at all.

1. as thief in the night (judgment, wrath)
2. the revelation of Christ in us

If these verses are only about the one-time coming of Christ in history (say 1000 years from now) how can I obey any of these verses?  They have nothing to do with me.

Luke 21:19  In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


If this passage is about a one-time coming of Christ in history, then it does not apply to most of mankind.  Many will have watched, but the Lord did not come while they were watched.  Many will have slept, but the Lord did not come while they were sleeping.

Mark 13:35  Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36  Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.



Thanks bobf,

after pentacost, Christ's "individual" return to believers; Paul had this to say about another SOON coming of Christ.  Was he just off on his time?  if he wasnt' talking about each persons own "pentacost" as this was already past tense??


1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

compared to Matthew 24, where we are told "no one knows the hour"

Act 2:16-17 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

1Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker…

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;


So, these "about to" verses are more than our "own personal coming/pentacost" arent' they?? 

Unless we spiritualize them, some "internal second coming", then the apostles were wrong on their "about to" happen prophecies weren't they?? 

And if we do spiritualize them, then what is that "second return" spiritually, what is the "receiving the end of our faith"???

1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 03:35:25 PM by laren »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2008, 06:05:34 PM »
Good questions Laren!  Wish I had all the answers. (;

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

compared to Matthew 24, where we are told "no one knows the hour"

I don't see these as different.  In both cases I get the understanding that
- the time is at near, impending, at hand
- but we do not know the exact time

Saying "it is the last hour" does not mean to me that I now know the hour.  It's just an expression that means it is imminent.

Even though I know "it is the last hour" it could still overtake me as a thief (1 Thes 5).

Quote
So, these "about to" verses are more than our "own personal coming/pentacost" arent' they?? 

Unless we spiritualize them, some "internal second coming", then the apostles were wrong on their "about to" happen prophecies weren't they?? 

And if we do spiritualize them, then what is that "second return" spiritually, what is the "receiving the end of our faith"???

It seems like you are saying that we're are stuck no matter how we look at it.  Do you have a way out?  I agree with your first statement above "unless we spiritualize them...then the apostles were wrong..."

How about these two statements:

Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


On the one had we are already raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenlies.  On the other hand, Paul has not yet attained to the resurrection.

Also, Paul associates attaining to the resurrection with being 'perfect' and something to 'follow after' during his life time as opposed to something to wait for in history.

Aren't we also 'stuck' with those two passages in a similar way?  Why is Paul talking about attaining to the resurrection if he is already raised with Christ and seated in the heavenlies?

I would say 'the end of our faith' is to be conformed to the image of Christ.  Something we press on towards in this life, but we never fully attain until the resurrection.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 06:14:22 PM by bobf »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2008, 04:05:39 AM »
:mshock: THANKS bobf!! Now I'm totally messed up!! LOL!!!

Sorry...didn't mean to do that!  Just my tentative understanding.

Quote
I've got to do some "re-thinking" here and I'm not ashamed to say it....your comments are good arguments and I need to get to the bottom of this!

One comment on "Sun" however :

Malachi 4
 1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Yeah, that's one of the verses where the response to my question on IWWB says that 'the Sun' can symbolize Christ.  Their point was that every symbol has both postive and negative application.  For example, Lion in one place = Christ,  Lion in another place = Devil.  Snake in most places = devil,  Serpant on pole = Christ.  etc.

Quote
Mal 4:1  For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
Mal 4:2  And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness--and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
...........
It (YLT) seems to be equating the "sun" with the Day of The Lord and NOT the Lord himself?? If that is true--wow...THIS verse would have exposed THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR BURNING....and gone against the "hell" doctrine!! whoah!
Joyce :)[/color]

Interesting.  I see what you're saying, but I would still tend to understand the 'Sun' there as symboliing the Spirit of Christ or Righteousness that arises within us that enables us to escape from within the Day of the Lord, as opposed to symbolizing the Day of the Lord itself.  But I dunno for sure. ;)

I don't think that changes what you are saying about the purpose of the Day of the Lord though.  You might take a look at Joel ch 1-2 if you haven't already.  I think these two chapters provide alot of detail about the Day of the Lord, who enters, why they enter, who exits, how they exit, what's the outcome.  I also think that the 'armies surrounding Jerusalem' in the Matthew 24 passage are probably the same as the 'armies' in Joel.

Ok how about "wars & rumors of wars".

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jeremiah 49:14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle. 15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men. 16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

Jerermiah 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. 46  And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come one year, and after that in another year shall come a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler. 47 Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.


All the underlined parts I see as being the same as idolatry of the 'sun, moon, stars' which God will darken when He 'brings thee down from thence'.

IMO the war, the day of the Lord, is all about judgment on the graven images of Babylon (whatever exactly they are).

Joel 1-2 is also a rumor of war.


« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 04:49:01 AM by bobf »

joyful1

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2008, 02:07:19 PM »
I see where the YLT, on the other hand, does NOT capitalize "SUN":

Mal 4:1  For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
Mal 4:2  And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness--and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
bobf--
One other note: look at the articles included in the 2 translations and notice that in the (YLT) they used "its" wings-- (KJV) used "his" wings.
and you can see that, in the (YLT) as well; it is the DAY that does the burning here...And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts,....and the burning of the "wicked" is definitely "hurtful" to the flesh....but "healing" to the spirit....or do you think that it is "healing" only to the righteous?

On the armies of Joel--I have to think about that one--I'm still reeling over this last discovery! LOL! Get back with you later today on the other!
Joyce :)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 02:12:06 PM by joyful1 »

joyful1

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2008, 02:22:24 PM »
Okay...I've just got to make one more comment here:
the burning going on here leaves the wicked with NO ROOT OR BRANCH-- no ability to "expand" or "grow"--this is in direct opposition to the "kingdom of God" which is a growing thing, an ever increasing kingdom. Just never saw that before!

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2008, 05:15:35 AM »
One other note: look at the articles included in the 2 translations and notice that in the (YLT) they used "its" wings-- (KJV) used "his" wings.  and you can see that, in the (YLT) as well; it is the DAY that does the burning here...And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts,....and the burning of the "wicked" is definitely "hurtful" to the flesh....but "healing" to the spirit....or do you think that it is "healing" only to the righteous?

On the armies of Joel--I have to think about that one--I'm still reeling over this last discovery! LOL! Get back with you later today on the other!
Joyce :)


Hi Joyce,

I only have time for a very quick reply.  I believe a human being enters the Day of the Lord with one spirit (carnal, old man) and that same human being exits the Day of the Lord with a new spirit (my understanding is that that is what the 'sun of righteousness' refers to) which could be an 'it' or 'Him' depending on whether you think the spirit of Christ is a nature (it) or a person (Him).  So in that sense only the righteous receive healing, but it's the same human being who had been wicked, proud, etc. and the Day of the Lord is why he needs healing.


joyful1

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2008, 10:37:18 AM »
bobf-- can you sum up in a short paragraph what you believe is the chronology of events for this age and the age to come? I'm probably asking too much here! LOL! but there are so many different takes on it now.....just want to understand where you are coming from?
Sincerely,
Joyce :)

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2008, 07:20:50 PM »
bobf-- can you sum up in a short paragraph what you believe is the chronology of events for this age and the age to come? I'm probably asking too much here! LOL! but there are so many different takes on it now.....just want to understand where you are coming from?
Sincerely,
Joyce :)


Hi Joyce,

I don't have much of a take on the 'literal, physical' sequence of events.  I believe all scripture is primarily instruction in righteousness for us now and to interpret scriptures with a physical future prophetic interpretation instead of a spiritual interpretation applicable to our lives now, is to miss the boat.  Note: I said 'instead of'.  I'm not saying there is not a true physical interpretation.  I'm just saying that is not the real point.

To give an comparison.  All the OT scriptures truly recorded physical history.  Yet all of those same scriptures testify of Christ.  To focus on the physical history side of OT scriptures, instead of how they testify of Christ, is to miss the boat.  I think we can do the same thing with prophecies about the future.

Ezekiel 12:21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. 24  For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25  For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28  Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

With that said, here is about as detailed as I can get:
1. There will be a first resurrection of God's elect few.
2. There will be a second resurrection of the many.
3. The few will judge the many.
4. The many will be instructed in righteousness and brought into God's kingdom by the few.

Bob


joyful1

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2008, 08:28:30 PM »
That's what I understand to be the truth as well, bobf.
Thanks for clarifying your position.
Joyce :)

Offline willieH

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2008, 09:38:24 PM »
With that said, here is about as detailed as I can get:
1. There will be a first resurrection of God's elect few.
2. There will be a second resurrection of the many.
3. The few will judge the many.
4. The many will be instructed in righteousness and brought into God's kingdom by the few.

Bob

I feel so blessed to be amongst so many knowledgeable and SEEKING brothers and sisters...  We do not see eye to eye on all things... and no one has all the answers, but THAT is a big part of what is fun and challenging, within the SEEKING! 

You all have stated so many great insights!   :happy3:

I am truly thankful to read and consider them!  :bgdance:

My  :2c: About the "FEW"...

As I see it, the "FEW" elect do not make judgments of themselves... It is the CHRIST that is IN THEM, that actually does the judging... It is the alignment with CHRIST that is the testimony of judgment against MISALIGNMENT...

YHVH is putting ALL THINGS under the feet of JESUS CHRIST... (1 Cor 15:27)

So (as I see it) the FEW are just tools, in the hand of the Father...

peacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline studier

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2008, 09:47:37 PM »
Quote
With that said, here is about as detailed as I can get:
1. There will be a first resurrection of God's elect few.
2. There will be a second resurrection of the many.
3. The few will judge the many.
4. The many will be instructed in righteousness and brought into God's kingdom by the few.

Bob

Indeed, I agree. It is hard to find many to recognize this.

If I had said this, there are many in this forum would have stood against me saying that I think myself special to be selected as the few who will judge the many, as if I have ever put myself in that position or know exactly what it means to be judged by the righteous of God (who is Love by the way). Whether we are the few or the many, does not change the fact that the few will judge the many and that the few will be the ones who instruct the many in righteousness and into God's Kingdom. Saying this, the few are not "Universalists" or "Catholics" or "Protestants" etc or have all the knowledge of the Truth neatly piled. It is those who have unity in Faith in the Son of God because even if they were off on their knowledge, in the First Resurrection, there is no flesh to obscure the knowledge of the Truth and so all things would be made clear.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 09:49:27 PM by SOtW »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2008, 10:29:53 PM »
Indeed, I agree. It is hard to find many to recognize this.

If I had said this, there are many in this forum would have stood against me saying that I think myself special to be selected as the few who will judge the many, as if I have ever put myself in that position or know exactly what it means to be judged by the righteous of God (who is Love by the way).

Really?!  I'm surprised.  I guess I'm not aware of the variations in beliefs among universalists on this.  I thought that was pretty standard.

Quote
Whether we are the few or the many, does not change the fact that the few will judge the many and that the few will be the ones who instruct the many in righteousness and into God's Kingdom. Saying this, the few are not "Universalists" or "Catholics" or "Protestants" etc or have all the knowledge of the Truth neatly piled.

I agree Craig.  Ye shall know them by their fruits, not their labels.

Quote
It is those who have unity in Faith in the Son of God because even if they were off on their knowledge, in the First Resurrection, there is no flesh to obscure the knowledge of the Truth and so all things would be made clear.

Yeah, I think we will always see through a glass darkly unless the first resurrection.  Also, I don't believe anyone can know that he will rise in the first resurrection, as there is always the possibility for anyone to fall away (at least from our vantange point, though God already knows who are the few and they will remain faithful to the end, yet it is still a choice for them to remain faithful).



bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2008, 10:53:28 PM »
Question for you guys.  Mike Vinson (and I think Ray Smith) believe that none of the OT believers will rise in the first resurrection.  What does you all think?

These are the primary passages I know of to support this.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


On the other hand.

Hebrews 11:35  Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Matthew 12:41  The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.



« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 11:20:15 PM by bobf »

joyful1

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2008, 03:36:01 PM »
Hi bobf,
To me, the most important thing that I have learned is that my heart seems to be in the process of literally being "changed." I'm not the same as I was 20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 days ago....it is an ongoing process that seems to be ocurring. If He chooses me to be part of the elect, then that choice is His, not mine. God does the choosing. If He does not choose me/ hasn't chosen me, then He is still being very gracious and kind to me by giving me the oportunity to have at least some of this awful carnality burned off in advance of the LOF. Not that I don't strive toward the "mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus", I certainly do!

I see the elect as the "servants" of others, just as a judge is a "public servant" and a true priest "serves the flock," by "feeding it."  Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve. Remember his admonition to the desciples about that?

Luke 22:24-26
 24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

 25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Okay....just my thoughts here!
Have a great day!  :icon_flower:
Joyce :)



Offline studier

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2008, 08:26:42 PM »
Hello Bob,

I disagree with Mike, the resurrection of the dead was a promise to even the Old Testament Saints who trusted in Jesus, though they did not know Him by Name, they did know the Lord.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 09:21:32 AM by SOtW »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2008, 01:01:34 AM »
Hello Bob,

I disagree with Matt, the resurrection of the dead was a promise to even the Old Testament Saints who trusted in Jesus, though they did not know Him by Name, they did know the Lord.

Thanks Craig.  That's how I see it too.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

I mean, Abraham's Seed is Christ.  He had the Seed, right?  If we are Abraham's Seed then we have the Seed that Abraham had by faith!

The thing that's kind of unusual, it that the IWWB folks emphasize the 'is, was, and will be' nature of Christ, and yet on this point abandon that Christ 'WAS' as He 'IS' in His dealings with mankind.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 01:16:04 AM by bobf »

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 33:14: Everlasting Burnings/Eonian Glowings
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2008, 01:07:17 AM »
Hi bobf,
To me, the most important thing that I have learned is that my heart seems to be in the process of literally being "changed." I'm not the same as I was 20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 days ago....it is an ongoing process that seems to be ocurring. If He chooses me to be part of the elect, then that choice is His, not mine. God does the choosing. If He does not choose me/ hasn't chosen me, then He is still being very gracious and kind to me by giving me the oportunity to have at least some of this awful carnality burned off in advance of the LOF. Not that I don't strive toward the "mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus", I certainly do!

I see the elect as the "servants" of others, just as a judge is a "public servant" and a true priest "serves the flock," by "feeding it."  Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve. Remember his admonition to the desciples about that?

Luke 22:24-26
 24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

 25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Okay....just my thoughts here!
Have a great day!  :icon_flower:
Joyce :)

Amen Joyce.

I think your thoughts are right on.  I don't know what else to say because you have said it so well.  I do strive too and I do see God changing my heart though it is a constant struggle for me, one of falling down and getting up again and again.

I wish it were easier, but for me it's not.

Bob