Author Topic: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement  (Read 2542 times)

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challenger

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2 Peter 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10  But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 07:18:19 AM »

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God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement


He also has plans


"So shall MY WORD be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall NOT return unto me void [unfulfilled], but it shall accomplish that which I please; and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).



What is it that God pleases to do,  challenger?

And, what can you show that will stop God from accomplishing what he pleases?   I mean, people here may disagree, and we certainly may not have it all figured out, but, we know what is pleasing for God to do.  Do you know?


You certainly have a great opportunity here to help people be free from the trap this forum may offer if you can answer.  I mean, certainly shouldn't we know what can stop God, the creater of the universe, the Sovereign Lord over all, dead in his tracks.  There must be something that can stop him if the basic belief of universalism is false.

I mean, your efforts to free people must not go unnoticed so nows your chance.

challenger

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 07:25:37 AM »
Perhaps you could expound on the verses at hand first Paul, before switching to other scriptures. Please, expound on Peter's words for us that are quoted in the original thread post.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 07:39:54 AM »
2 Peter 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Ok,

2Pt 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;


Tartarus is a place of restraint and is not accuratly to be called hell.  Chastening?  Do you know what chastening is?



5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


If you wish to point out the various disagreements among universalists on whether we are punished, whether we are chastened, whether Hell is just temporary torture,  you can certainly find that disagreement.  However, regaurdless of that disagreement,  the agreement is the ultimate power of God will rid us of the ungodliness in all of our hearts.  It is no secret that it is better to live a life that seek God than one that doesn't.  The typical accusation is that universalism teaches people that they can live any way they want and it will be ok.  Do you believe that is what it teaches?   I do not believe that myself,  I believe it would serve your purposes to free people from this pit better to seek out those individually.  Who are they exactly?


7  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8  (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10  But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.



The problem with your demand that I address the verses is that you want to box in the conversation to only include your viewpoint.  I really am not concerned with that, but any honest believer, any believer that wants the truth from scripture knows that if you just quote a bunch of bible verses and make some conclusion you had better have the rest of the bible to take into account for your words.

Do you seek to to show a certain aspect of punishment towards the universalist view point?    Or since you claim universalism is false, do you believe that these verses mean there will be people in hell forever?   

What is your belief?


bobf

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 09:03:03 AM »
6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

But Sodom will be restored and so will those judged worse than Sodom (Ezekiel 16).

God does know how to judge the ungodly who are like Sodom and Gommorah.

Here is how:

Deuteronomy 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. 34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Here is the punchline that you do not believe:

36 For the LORD shall judge his people and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

The judgment of those worse than Sodom will come to rest.

Ezekiel 16:42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

They will be received by God along with those of Sodom.

Ezekiel 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

When all the curse of the law is upon a person, he can return to God and God will fetch from the outermost parts of heaven.

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee.

Once again - Here is how God knows how to judge the ungodly.

Isaiah 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

And again.

Zepheniah 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Here is what the spirit of God is like.

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

And here is what the spirit of ET is like.

Luke 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 09:13:05 AM by bobf »

laren

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 09:31:11 AM »
AMEN


Thanks bobf for that great set of scriptures.  I am so thankful that LOVE never fails.



Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?




« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 09:33:36 AM by laren »

laren

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2008, 09:40:37 AM »
Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
 
Isa 26:10  Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah.

Isa 26:11  Jehovah, thy hand is lifted up, yet they see not: but they shall see thy zeal for the people, and be put to shame; yea, fire shall devour thine adversaries.

Eze 16:63  That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Offline studier

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 10:52:21 AM »
Paul and Bobf, you answered well. What you presented cannot be refuted, only ignored. I guarantee you, because it cannot be refuted, it will be ignored.  :thumbsup: Take that as a compliment, you sealed the coffin of that objection.

pneuma

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 05:55:17 PM »
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Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Great scripture Laren.

bobf

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 02:05:52 AM »
AMEN.  Thanks bobf for that great set of scriptures.

Thanks laren!

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I am so thankful that LOVE never fails.

Amen to that!

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Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 YET the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

bobf

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Re: God knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 02:08:23 AM »
Paul and Bobf, you answered well. What you presented cannot be refuted, only ignored. I guarantee you, because it cannot be refuted, it will be ignored.  :thumbsup: Take that as a compliment, you sealed the coffin of that objection.

Thanks Craig, I really appreciate that.