Author Topic: Bread alone  (Read 19776 times)

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Online sheila

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2011, 03:58:49 PM »
no,you or I can't 'prove' them..but God will..in the fire...and eventually we will all know what was spoken of Him,and what was not.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2011, 05:22:00 PM »
no,you or I can't 'prove' them..but God will..in the fire...and eventually we will all know what was spoken of Him,and what was not.
I'm not denying that because I simply don't have that knowledge. I think it can be a great experience.
But here we are on a forum. The only thing we can discuss are written words. I can't discuss your vision because I simply can't discus unverified things.
I think that's the main problem with spiritual stuff. It can't be discussed so it doesn't really fit on a "written forum"

I know someone who had several visions. One (several actually) was that the person was easting in the kitchen and Paul (or Peter) joined and ate rice for hours. While doing so Paul constantly taught that person. It happend at least three times.
Well....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2011, 05:35:50 PM »
no,you or I can't 'prove' them..but God will..in the fire...and eventually we will all know what was spoken of Him,and what was not.
I'm not denying that because I simply don't have that knowledge. I think it can be a great experience.
But here we are on a forum. The only thing we can discuss are written words. I can't discuss your vision because I simply can't discus unverified things.
I think that's the main problem with spiritual stuff. It can't be discussed so it doesn't really fit on a "written forum"

I know someone who had several visions. One (several actually) was that the person was easting in the kitchen and Paul (or Peter) joined and ate rice for hours. While doing so Paul constantly taught that person. It happend at least three times.
Well....

Paul likes rice?  I'll cook some up!  :happygrin:

People who have had visions can compare with people who have had visions.

People who have not had visions can discern through the Spirit about someone else's  vision.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2011, 05:43:58 PM »
I guess I missed the memo that because we're on a forum, we can only discuss written words.  Perhaps the frustration in sharing revelation with another is not that the other can't receive it, but because it was a personal revelation to an individual, the frustration comes when others can't pick it apart and judge whether it's right or wrong.

But again . . .what is the foundation that Jesus was building his church on if it was not on the principle of God unveiling the nature of Jesus to us on a personal level rather than on a script?  It's based on relationship . . .knowledge only takes us so far, but it can't become infinite to us because the capacity we have in gathering, containing and retaining knowledge is not infinite.  God is not finite.  There are no boundaries to his nature and truths.  His depths go beyond natural comprehension.  His illuminations go higher than our capabilities can follow.

Rather than toss that all aside because this is a forum of the writings of others, why can't we instead at least include the greater possibilities that God's reality may very well reach "beyond" our understanding of his nature according to our comprehension of the written Word?  The written word isn't the "final" say . . .it's a sign post full of signs that point to the final say. . .which is Christ himself.  Jesus even said this to others who embraced what was written over what was living in front of them . . ."you search the scriptures because in them YOU THINK  . . .

John 5
37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you.
 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
 41 "Your approval means nothing to me, 42 because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43 For I have come to you in my Father's name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 44 No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.


Which was Jesus more concerned about?  The tangible or the spiritual aspects of our lives?  Yes, he's concerned about both, but which one carries the most emphasis with Him?

Online sheila

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2011, 06:28:10 PM »
 and in the last days,I will pour out my spirit on all flesh [Acts 2;17]  your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,

  your old men will dream dreams. Even on  my servants,both men and women,I will pour out my spirit in those days,and they will prophesy.

    I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth belwo,blood and fire and billows of smoke.

     the 'all' flesh includes you. Your times a coming :grin:.

    Blessed art thou,Peter,for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you,but the Father in heaven.

    Now, as far as I can see,ww. a man's offering is merited on what he has,not on what he does not have.

    Now, the body is not made up of one part but many...no-one can say..because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body. The eye cannot

   say to the hand,I don't need you.   If one part suffers then every part suffers with it.

    We all need each other.
   

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2011, 08:14:40 PM »
Perhaps the frustration in sharing revelation with another is not that the other can't receive it, but because it was a personal revelation to an individual, the frustration comes when others can't pick it apart and judge whether it's right or wrong.
Or people want to check if it's not a meth induced vision. The persons track record is also of importance. For me those things are of great importance.
Quote
But again . . .what is the foundation that Jesus was building his church on if it was not on the principle of God unveiling the nature of Jesus to us on a personal level rather than on a script?  It's based on relationship . . .knowledge only takes us so far
You really should pick up a decent dictionary and look up the meaning of "revealing". And then tell me if it means beyond what's already written.
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Rather than toss that all aside because this is a forum of the writings of others, why can't we instead at least include the greater possibilities that God's reality may very well reach "beyond" our understanding of his nature according to our comprehension of the written Word?
A forum should be courtesy based. Speaking from a high horse to lowly carnal word-meaning-studiers with words that can't be backed up causes the soil to get hard as rock instead of fertile.
Quote
The written word isn't the "final" say . . .it's a sign post full of signs that point to the final say. . .which is Christ himself.  Jesus even said this to others who embraced what was written over what was living in front of them . . ."you search the scriptures because in them YOU THINK  . .
That seems to include you because you want that verse to support your view. And it won't come as a suprise my view is the opposite.
Quote
Which was Jesus more concerned about?  The tangible or the spiritual aspects of our lives?  Yes, he's concerned about both, but which one carries the most emphasis with Him?
That's off-topic.
It's all so easy.
Compare the Bible to a senior year university textbook. Math for example. Give it to a 3 year old and ask that child to study it. It's all veiled to the child. However through the years the child gets thaught in school by teachers (Jesus) bit by bit the veils drop. 18 years later the child understands everything written in that math book. Was the book rewritten? No. Did the teachers add knowledge to the book? No. Did the child progress due to self study and help from the teacher? Yes.
The teachers simply revealed knowledge that was written in that math book even before the child was born.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:17:55 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2011, 09:48:42 PM »
Alas, we've once again arrived at the same chasm as before.  Everything you've just said only solidifies my responses.  You're at the point now where you're comparing the Scripture to a math book???  And "I'm" the one people think is discrediting the Bible?  A math book was never intended to have SPIRITUAL MEANING beneath what's literally written.

Everything I've stated about the importance of Scripture, the order in which it's to be read, the context from which it was written in . . .ALL of what I've shared is not based on knowledge . . .it's based on my relationship.  Which is WHY I say that the very cornerstone Jesus was using as the foundation of his church is based on relationship with Jesus . .which again, "you', by your own words have claimed "not" to have.  So how is it that you continue to question the validity of things said by those that do have a relationship, while you yourself do not? 

When Peter received his first revelation from God, Jesus immediately pointed out the fact that it does not come by way of flesh and blood.  In other words . .. SPIRITUAL truth that is REVEALED inwardly does NOT come through the same means as one who is reading a math book.  We're to walk in the SPIRIT . . .we're NOT to rely on our own understanding.  We're to fill our minds with HEAVENLY thoughts.  Definitions and literal facts all have their place, but as I already stated, there are limitations as to how far facts and definitions will take us.  When Scripture talks about the deep calling to the deep, it's not saying that we should all go to the library and submerge ourselves in commentaries and writings of others.  Scripture also speaks about how it's a SPIRIT TO SPIRIT avenue of communication between us and God.

In your eyes, spiritual truth can only come by way of the process of time one spends maturing in knowledge and understanding on Biblical matters.  But tell that to "Paul".  One minute he was bent on imprisoning and killing people who didn't see God the same way he did . . .the next minute he was on his back, blind and completely stripped of everything he'd thought he was up to that point.  He spent three days blind before he was led to a SPIRITUAL man that took him under his wing.  The turn around was so quick that it actually was an obstacle in his ability to evangelize.  The people thought it was all a trick because THE LAST THEY KNEW, he was trying to kill them, and now he was trying to save them?  Did all of that come through the process of time?  Like a child growing into a math book?

My last question on my last post . . .your response really made me laugh . . .I asked "Which was Jesus more concerned about, spiritual or tangible?"  And "your" response was my question was OFF TOPIC????  Seriously???  Do you realize that THIS thread was STARTED BY ME???  Bread alone . . .man can't live on bread alone . . .but on every word that "proceedeth" from God . . . how is my question anything BUT an extension of the original post???

The "only" part of your entire response that I can find any real truth to is the fact that it's no surprise that your view is the opposite.   And based on the fact that you think spiritual growth is the same as learning math, it's no surprise at all that your view is gonna be the opposite.  The real question is, can we both get along on the same forum?

Online sheila

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2011, 10:16:49 PM »
  I liked your analogy about maturing into understanding the book. I have another that I almost posted farther back in the thread.

    One room school-house..with grades K-6..kindergardners and 1st,2nd graders learn abc's and numbers...add subtract etc.

   3 rd graders start in with formulas...3/4=6/x......k-2 er's say,hey...you can't do that....a letter has no place in numbers..your mixing letter's with numbers!.

   then you have the 6th graders doing,amps,to volts to currents and all their conversion formula's.

   Now, the Teacher says to the older ones,lay off telling the little ones 1+1 doesn't = 2, and that q doesn't follow p

 and little children.. don't tell the  other's P=E2/R, P=I2+ R,or P=E+I  is wrong.

   water seeks it's own level. We will all be drawn to what we understand,to those who 'get' us..those that help us reach up. We have to spread out

  in our affection.

    Now the written word can be misunderstood as well as visions,dreams,utterances....it IS something we all have in common.For whatever 'stage' of spiritual

  growth we're in there are snares,traps a plenty for us all. There are 'babes' young men and old men in the church.

    Wisdom=knowledge applied with Love

    Love you all, each one is precious in the Lord

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2011, 12:00:31 AM »
Sheila, I can see the analogy being likened to one's "relationship" with God in that we're all on different levels in our walk which of course, my level of maturity in Christ does definitely affect my depth in understanding Scriptures.  But what "is" spiritual maturity?  The reason why I adamantly disagree with comparing the Bible with the same context as a math class is because you're eliminating the majority of people who don't attend the class.

The principle is then saying only those with the ability to dig, study and define Scriptures can become spiritually mature.  And I again, adamantly disagree.  That's why I used Paul's experience as an example.  But Peter fits that just as easily.  He was NOT deeply immersed in Biblical theology.  Jesus didn't pick them because he saw their potential to be great scholars of the word.  Peter didn't receive the revelation of who Jesus was because he was mature enough to finally handle it.  If that were the case, then the event immediately following the revelation would not have led to Peter being rebuked and called "satan".  It wasn't/isn't about progressively maturing to where we can finally understand Scripture.

Discernment is a gift of the spirit, not a level of maturity obtained by only those that have accumulated the knowledge.  Revelation is the highway through which God communicates.  Why settle for going through the "natural process" of thinking when it seriously doesn't lead into maturity, spiritual truth or even freedom?

Give this a thought . . . take any individual who has excelled in obtaining knowledge about "things".  So much so that it's become their vocation, their passion, their identity.  They've become so renown at it that high-end colleges pay them millions to teach others what they accumulated.  And then . . . tell them that spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood .. . by this point, they've "grown" so deeply in their own efforts that there's no way they would even consider laying down their will and accept truth by revelation.  Their mind has become so embedded in "knowledge" that embracing the kingdom of the Spirit isn't even imaginable.

Even Paul stated "when I was a child, I spoke and acted as a child . . ."  Was Paul referring to when he was a literal kid?  Or when he was a spiritual infant?  In this case, both fits, but again, what would be the "emphasis" he's aiming at here?  When he was a literal kid?  That people should now act their age?  Or was he speaking about spiritual maturity . . .that when people are spiritual infants they act immature spiritually.  So, if he's speaking spiritually, then what is considered mature?  Embracing what's literally written over what's spiritually discerned?  or the other way around?

And let's say it "is" the other way around.  That walking in the spirit is an experience for more spiritually mature people to pursue . . .if that's the case, then why is there such a battle on this subject at all?  Unless it's believed that embracing the literal is more mature than embracing the spiritual.  What is it that Paul laid down when he became a man?  Have "we" been willing to lay any of "our" stuff down? 

This has been a sore spot with some ever since I've been on Tent.  The idea that I continue to revert to the "spiritual" part of Scripture rather than stay with the literal aspects frustrates some and even though I push back, I'm not trying to condemn or degrade others by stating that they're making stuff up about Scripture only so that they can continue to believe whatever they want regardless of what the Bible says.   Nor do I falsely accuse them of speaking from a "high horse" to carnal word-meaning-studiers . . .

For me, I've not changed my story since day on on coming to Tent.  I think spiritual maturity is not in embracing natural reasoning.  I think it's just the opposite.  I think spiritual maturity takes place when we let go of our natural means of attempting to comprehend spiritual truth.  Freedom is not in knowledge, it's in Christ who is "spirit" and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty!  So why then do I continually get rebuked for trying to embrace that?

Oh, back to the progressional math thing . . ."if" that were truly the case, then why the stinging remarks at all?  Since when would a senior rebuke a 7th grader for being a 7th grader?  If this is really about 'growing" into higher levels of understanding the Bible, why am I being rebuked for being where I am?

It really does boil down to understanding which is more important . . .which is of better benefits . . .which carries the greater power, the natural or the spiritual?  If I am spiritually immature, then should I desire to become more knowledgeable?  Should I embrace the literal so that I can become more mature in the spiritual?  Is that what this is all about? 

Offline Taffy

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2011, 12:40:36 AM »
Quote
    Wisdom=knowledge applied[ LIVED] with Love :HeartThrob:

in A nutshell~ :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline CHB

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2011, 12:50:49 AM »
Hi Nathan,

Didn't Jesus teach from the scriptures (Luke 4:16)?  Many times Jesus said "IT IS WRITTEN". What was he referring to except the written word?  Paul said, "STUDY to show thyself approved UNTO GOD a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH". If the Bible wasn't to be used or isn't what we should live by, then why did all of the apostles write the epistles? What was the need for them to write if we have no need of them? What was the point?

You said " Jesus didn't pick them because he saw their potential to be great scholars of the word". I don't think any one has implied that this was the case. Jesus did teach them because they didn't have the New Testament as we do. The apostles wrote the epistles for our admonition. I don't think we can understand the scriptures without being spiritual minded but God has to give us that gift. I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should be separated.

CHB




Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2011, 02:04:05 AM »
Hi Nathan,

Didn't Jesus teach from the scriptures (Luke 4:16)?  Many times Jesus said "IT IS WRITTEN". What was he referring to except the written word?  Paul said, "STUDY to show thyself approved UNTO GOD a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH". If the Bible wasn't to be used or isn't what we should live by, then why did all of the apostles write the epistles? What was the need for them to write if we have no need of them? What was the point?

You said " Jesus didn't pick them because he saw their potential to be great scholars of the word". I don't think any one has implied that this was the case. Jesus did teach them because they didn't have the New Testament as we do. The apostles wrote the epistles for our admonition. I don't think we can understand the scriptures without being spiritual minded but God has to give us that gift. I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should be separated.

CHB

I'm not saying, nor have ever said that we're to not read or study Scripture.  It's not about whether or not we should read it or study it . . .it's "how" we're to read and study it.  For me, natural "leads" to the spiritual.  Which is to say the word definitions and commentaries are not the final answer, but are merely tools that we can use to lead us up to where the answer lies.  But it's up to us to lay down what's natural and pursue what's spiritual.

Everything Jesus was tempted with was natural, Everything Jesus came back with was spiritual.  He used Scripture, yes, but the power being exercised with it was not by natural implication or interpretations, but through spiritual . . . .it's not by "might", nor by "power" but . . .BY THE SPIRIT . . .everything is spiritual.

As to no one implying that you have to potentially be a great scholar . . to me, that's what the math analogy was implying . . .you have to go through the ranks of maturity before you can reach a level of understanding what Scripture is saying.  Revelation comes to the immature just as easily as it comes to the mature, in fact, it's probably easier for the immature because they've not convinced themselves that knowledge is as authoritive as spiritual.  Remember, kingdom principles are backwards to natural logic.  From the mouths of babes . . . if being too spiritual is infantile to most others, then let me have me rubber ducky.  In that principle, babes aren't on milk for very long before their pressing in to the meatier things of God.

Once again, this isn't about disregarding Scripture and embracing only the voice within.  This whole thing has been about the "starting point".  Rather than build my belief according to what my mind has interpreted, I've said and am still saying, my belief should first be based on the Word "in" me.  THEN AS I READ THE SCRIPTURE from that vantage point, it won't be based on natural reasoning . . .it won't be based on what I think Scripture is saying.  Nor will it be changed because Scripture "appears" to contradict it's core message.  When I do get involved in word definitions, they won't set the standard, they'll merely fit the framework already in place.

Just like your quote about studying to show yourself approved . . . it's assumed that this is a challenge to read the Bible because that's what God is demanding . . .but read that again .. . the studying of Scripture is not to build your belief, it's to reveal to your SELF that you ARE approved unto God.  The studying isn't so that you'll learn more about God . . .all though, again, the Spirit will lead us into reading Scriptures and studying them, but the point in this particular passage is that it's saying AS you study the Scriptures, you will see that you've already been approved . . .puts a whole different spin on why I read Scripture.  It's not just to gather information about God, it's also to see that I've already been aproved of God whether I know it, read it, study it, understand it . . .or not.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2011, 02:08:51 AM »
The written Bear Testimony to HIM, , even so, theres No life in the Black and White Charlotte ~LIVING [ life within] IS the reality,if you wish to sum this all Up in One sentance, the whole Book speaks of Coming to KNOW HIM, Christ In US our HOPE of Glory~ In truth Nothing else Matters~ , summerised THE renewed SOUL~And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2011, 02:32:10 AM »
The written Bear Testimony to HIM . . .

Egg-zackly!!

Great to see you moving around on the boards again bro!!!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2011, 03:15:19 AM »


Yes.

I don't see that a printed copy of the Bible has any mystical or magical power of its own.

People have defaced and destroyed many copies of the Scriptures throughout the centuries
without a lightning bolt striking them dead in their tracks.

It is the Spirit Who teaches from the pages of the Book.

Offline Molly

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2011, 03:24:32 AM »
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased

to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to consult with those who were apostles before I was. Instead, I went away into Arabia, and later I returned to the city of Damascus.  [Gal 1]


Paul says he went off by himself upon receiving the revelation of Christ, and did not confer with men.

But, Paul was one who knew the Old Testament scriptures by heart, and had studied under the greatest rabbi in Jerusalem, Gameliel.

So in Paul we see both the written and revealed working hand in hand.  He could now understand the language of Christ against the backdrop of the Old Testament.  That's the ideal, I think.  But, it is not something that happens overnight.

We need to be more patient with ourselves and each other.  God knows what he's doing in the lives of his servants.  He will eventually bring each of us to the same place, even though the road might look different.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2011, 04:52:39 AM »

So in Paul we see both the written and revealed working hand in hand.  He could now understand the language of Christ against the backdrop of the Old Testament.  That's the ideal, I think.  But, it is not something that happens overnight.

We need to be more patient with ourselves and each other.  God knows what he's doing in the lives of his servants.  He will eventually bring each of us to the same place, even though the road might look different.

Fantastic post, Molly.  Amen.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2011, 04:50:02 PM »
    Matthew 13:31
    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
 
    Matthew 13:33
    Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
 
    Matthew 13:44
    Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

    Matthew 13:45
    Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
 
    Matthew 13:47
    Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

    Matthew 13:52
    Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
 
    Matthew 20:1
    For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
   
    Matthew 22:2
    The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,



Jesus' focus was to move "from" tangible to spiritual.   Putting New Wine into Old Wineskins was a prime example.  Another was using new fabric as a patch for old garments.  The Old wineskin bursts and the old fabric tears.  Something's gotta give.  The thing about the living, breathing nature of the spirit is, it is continually moving, expanding, elevating . . .but traditional thinking embraces that which remains the same.  And to Molly's point about Paul, he definitely had a 'GREAT' advantage over most "because of" his theological background.  And Jesus also pointed to this advantage in the middle of these "the kingdom is like . . ." settings.

Matt. 13
51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
 52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


Paul was raised in the knowledge but he understood the placement of that knowledge was not to be ahead of spiritual, but "under" it.  Because in his own words, he sees those man-made credentials as a pile of crap.  Yes?

Philippians 3
3 For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, 4 though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!
 5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. 6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
 7 I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. 8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.[c] For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith.


The emphasis Paul placed on his relationship with God, not only was he "not" basing it on all the knowledge he'd obtained, but he went so far as to say that he let go of everything he "thought" he already knew.  This has been what I've been trying to say all along about natural reasoning being laid aside for spiritual revelation.  It's based on FAITH . . .seeing what can't TANGIBLY be seen.  Basing my belief on what is written is not basing it on the unseen.  What is written is what is seen.  But building my foundation in Christ based on the Word "in" me is what faith "is".  Because Paul laid down his knowledge of God, he was able to become the greatest and most powerful tool used by God. 

The trials didn't really manifest in his life until he took that which he received spiritually and tried to birth that into others who were still in the grips of man-made mindsets.  Those that embraced what he considered as dung took offense to his change of direction and set out to kill him as a result.  He knew the same Scriptures they knew, but he had a completely different message than they did.  Why?  Was it because he embraced the literal Scriptures?  Or the spiritual message they contained?  He "had" both, but one was put under submission to the other.  Yes??
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 04:56:51 PM by Nathan »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2011, 05:34:50 PM »
Alas, we've once again arrived at the same chasm as before.  Everything you've just said only solidifies my responses.
Hopefully not for people who actually read what I wrote.
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You're at the point now where you're comparing the Scripture to a math book???
No. I'm was giving an example.
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And "I'm" the one people think is discrediting the Bible?
Can't speak for others but my answer is yes.
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A math book was never intended to have SPIRITUAL MEANING beneath what's literally written.
Did I claim a math book is sipritual?
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Everything I've stated about the importance of Scripture, the order in which it's to be read, the context from which it was written in . . .ALL of what I've shared is not based on knowledge . . .it's based on my relationship.
Your point is?

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2011, 05:36:18 PM »
Quote from: CHB
I think we need both the spirituality and the written word, what would be the good of one without the other? I don't think the two should, be separated.

There was no man as spiritual as Jesus Christ, he was the Son of God but he still used the physical to explain things. It is true that Jesus focus was to move "from" tangible to spiritual" but what was the move from? The laws of Moses, which was physical, to the New Covenant, which was also partly physical . I think this move is a progressive thing as well. This physical will eventually be changed completely over to spiritual. Mind you, I said "eventually". I don't think we are completely at that point yet. Reading Nathans posts, they seem to imply that we are already in a spiritual state and there is no need for the physical. Maybe I am understanding them wrong?  :dontknow:

As I said above, "I don't think the physical CAN be seperated from the spiritual as long as we are in the physical. I think the fact that Jesus who was the most spiritual person who ever lived, used the physical to explain things shows that. I am not saying that the WRITTEN WORD should be first but I don't see how we can have spiritual without physical as long as we are physical. I think we are moving from the physical to the spiritual but it is a progress that hasn't been completed yet.

CHB


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2011, 05:44:52 PM »
Sheila, I can see the analogy being likened to one's "relationship" with God in that we're all on different levels in our walk which of course, my level of maturity in Christ does definitely affect my depth in understanding Scriptures.  But what "is" spiritual maturity?  The reason why I adamantly disagree with comparing the Bible with the same context as a math class is because you're eliminating the majority of people who don't attend the class.
Your argument is very flawed on several points.
a] People who attend to class have no guarantee they will undertand. Not everyone has a masters in math.
b] My example wasn't as bad as you hope it is. Students can do self study. But it's often the teacher that makes the difference. When discussing with a more relaxed person I would explan how the teacher compare to HS, without claiming a math teacher is divine.
c] My example wasn't about the only way of learning but about the teacher revealing what was unclear (by study)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2011, 05:58:35 PM »
Pardes (Jewish exegesis)From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
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Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning[1].
Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a "hint" is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.

Some thinkers, such as the Tolaat Yaakov, divide Pardes into Peshat, Remez, Din (law), and Sod. According to this understanding, Derash is divided into the homiletics, which are classified under Remez, and legal interpretations, which are classified under Din.

The Pardes typology is quite similar to the contemporary Christian fourfold allegorical scheme.

Contents
1 Examples
1.1 Pshat
1.2 Remez
1.3 Derash (Midrash)
1.4 Sod
2 Association with paradise
3 References
4 See also
5 External links
5.1 Jewish Encyclopedia links
5.2 Other links
 

[edit] Examples[edit] Pshat{Gen. 1,2) And the earth was empty (tohu) and formless (vohu).
Rashi - The Hebrew word 'tohu' means astonishment in English and the word 'bohu' means emptiness and next to emptiness. Thus the phrase is 'amazement and desolation'. This means that a person would be amazed and astonished at anything that was there.

[edit] Remez(gemara makkos 2b) Q. A hint that the law of conspiring witnesses is in the Torah, where is it?
A. There is no such hint, because it is stated explicitly (Deut 19,19) You do to them what they conspired to do to the accused.

Q. But a hint that conspiring witnesses receive a whipping [if they cannot be punished by doing to them as they conspired] according to the Torah, where is it?
A. As it says (Deut 25,1-2) They caused the righteous to be righteous and the evil to be evil. And therefore the evil get whipped.

Q. Because they caused the righteous to be righteous and the evil to be evil. And therefore the evil get whipped?
A. But there must have been witnesses who testified that the righteous were evil. And other witnesses came and caused the righteous to be known as righteous as they were before, and caused the previous witnesses to be known as evil. And therefore the evil get whipped.

[edit] Derash (Midrash)(gemara makkos 23b) Rabbi Simlai deduced that there were 613 mitzvot taught to Moses at Mount Sinai. The verse says that (Deut 33,4) Torah was given to us through Moses at Sinai. The gematria of Torah is 611. And one should add to them the first two of the Ten Commandments that were given directly by God to the Jews [this is known because they are written in the first person singular], making the total 613.

[edit] Sod(Guide for the Perplexed book2 section 30) "Adam and Eve were at first created as one being, having their backs united: they were then separated, and one half was removed and brought before Adam as Eve." . Note how clearly it has been stated that Adam and Eve were two in some respects, and yet they remained one, according to the words," Bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh" (Gen. ii. 23). The unity of the two is proved by the fact that both have the same name, for she is called ishah (woman), because she was taken out of ish (man), also by the words," And shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh" (ii. 24). How great is the ignorance of those who do not see that all this necessarily includes some [other] idea [besides the literal meaning of the words].

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2011, 06:00:47 PM »
Matt. 13
51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
 52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


Paul was raised in the knowledge but he understood the placement of that knowledge was not to be ahead of spiritual, but "under" it.  Because in his own words, he sees those man-made credentials as a pile of crap.  Yes?
That's besides the point. The Bible isn't manmade credentials. The only credential in theologians have is claiming they understand the Bible.
The Scribes where constantly following Jesus and waiting for a good moment to ask a question that would expose Jesus as a fraud. Jesus didn't answer with things like "I had a vision".
No He answered with verses the Scribes knew and agreed with.
Jesus and the Scribes both had the OT memorized (I assume). But only Jesus could really connect the dots.
So Paul wasn't suggesting to throw the OT on that pile of crap. He admitted that his way of connecting the dots was totally flawed.
So Jesus could always backup His teachings with Scripture.
Jesus was a Rabbi. A teacher. The Scribes saw themselfs as teaches of the highest level. But when confronting Jesus they always had to admit defeat. The Book was the same. But the level of education of the teachers wasn't.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2011, 06:15:48 PM »
typology and symbolism , shadows tyoes and patterns relay the hidden not seen by the Eye, Unles of course its Revealed#Paul the greatest Mystic of ALL.

 Having spent some time with two Hebrew scholars, coming to understand the symbolic 22 letters of The hebrew alpabhet . we come to learn words Like DA-V ID~

This truth of Agape is encapsulated in Name "David" ="Daleth Vau Daleth". This name contains the two gates(Daleth) the Father and the Son and the Vau is the Hook (You are the hook, the joint that reveals both the Father and the Son AS ONE )

Blessed are they who see the deeper meanings Guys,No biggy, but geesh~ is all this wrangling still going on?~can we not share what we see and let other BE~
Im still a Mod here Until someone tells me differently~AFTER 5mths maybe it time to JUST quit it~and MOVE ON~ :HeartThrob:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2011, 06:16:33 PM »
Quote
    Wisdom=knowledge applied[ LIVED] with Love :HeartThrob:

in A nutshell~ :icon_flower:
You didn't rightly divide that. There's a space between the s and h  :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...