Author Topic: Bread alone  (Read 19476 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2011, 10:33:43 PM »
Hi Nate  :icon_flower:

Indeed, The Living Manna~ the TRUTH, the Life and SPIRIT, THE LIVING WORD[ Breath]~~ we feed from  the ascended Christ,shown after the Pattern of Jesus BREAKING Literal wine and Bread ~
The carnal man also made By Him fed from the Manna,  suffice was never Enough as  we move from Child to a SON~ The pattern never Changes ~

Shalom  ~
 :icon_flower:

 
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2011, 11:20:50 PM »
the word of God helps us to grow up to be spiritually minded. When I say spiritually minded I mean to, think on things that are good, (Phil. 4:8) and have the fruits of the Spirit.

CHB

Amen C - written, spoken, and revealed.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2011, 11:25:13 PM »
blessings to all in this conversation
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 11:36:58 PM »
Due to the fact that I really didn't have a whole lot of time when addressing some of what you (Jabcat) wrote, I don't mind continuing on with this conversation if you don't . . . it "is" somewhat of the "crux" of where I'm coming from so it's still very relevant to the conversations as well as any other posts I have out there past, and future.  It's all based on "this" idealism that the Church Jesus built, is building and continues to build is based on individual revelation from God directly.  It's an inward experience of the heart that goes beyond the comprehension of the mind.  it's "based" not on knowledge, but on relationship.

This is why it throws me when a person will bring so much knowledge to any given topic, yet at the same time, confess they themselves have no personal relationship with God or Jesus either one.  To "not" have the relationship, then the knowledge becomes useless and futile.

Yet on the other side of the coin, when I present the idea that perhaps we would benefit more if we were to rely more on what God speaks to us inwardly through our relationship with him, rather than what our "knowledge" of Scripture can comprehend, it causes all kinds of alarms in people.  Bottom line, when it comes to Scripture, the quickest way to say it is, read it spiritually and not literally.  But that poses all kinds of questions in others as well because the first thing that pops up is . . ."what is spiritual"? 

I remember in past conversations pertaining specifically with the book of Revelation, I was told you can't spiritualize what's already spiritual.  Yet they would turn around and claim that the events being depicted are "literally" going to happen.  It it was already spiritual then how can they think it's going to happen in the literal?  My personal understanding of "spiritual" is merely "inwardly" applying it.  That's where the still small voice resides . . ."in" me. The church that Jesus was building based on direct revelation from God . . "I"/"we" are that church and the Spirit of Truth preaches to us the eternal truths that bring illumination within us and it is the driving forces that brings the river of life flowing "out" of our bellies.

But again, for me, that all is thwarted when I let my head explain to my heart it's opinion and interpretation of what it thinks Scripture is trying to say.  Scripture isn't meant for my head but my heart.  It's the pearl that isn't to be offered to the swine.  My carnal mind is the unclean thing that pearl-natured truth is not to be stomping on.  Does this discredit Scripture?  If I am, it's totally unintentional.  I believe it's realigning the power that lies within Scripture. 

Having said that . . . you shared
While we're talking about our mind, thanks for bringing that up.  I also believe we can think we're hearing from God "inside", then base our beliefs on that - apart from scriptural support - and be off base too.  There are thousands of examples.  Search the net, go to different churches, see what people are "hearing from God".  Some of it is, some of it's not.  How do I know?  One way is if they speak things against what's written.

The last line here . . . you want to base your conclusions according to whether or not someone is saying something "against" what is written.  What if my personal understanding of what is written is already altered or tainted?  How often did Jesus go against what was "written"?  Reflex answer . . .he never did.  Rephrase the question?  How often DID THEY "THINK" Jesus went against what was written?  He couldn't even remove a head of wheat from it's stalk as he walked through a field without them accusing him of "breaking the law".  I'm not so sure relying on my personal opinion of what I think Scripture is saying is "the" greatest litmus test to know whether someone is hearing from God or not.


Not sure what you find interesting.  I thought I was pretty clear that I agreed with much of what you're saying, i.e., that's the scripture needs Spirit-revelation.  Don't know how many times I've said that - over and over.  I just think we need to not make statements and teach things that appear that we're cavalierly dismissing the scriptures.  That why I said I believe I know how you truly believe, but suggested a little different angle of view.  You're not the only one that can challenge, and I hope you don't believe you've gone beyond being able to learn from others, and are only here to teach and challenge
.


What I found interesting was, you stated at the beginning that you agreed with most of what I said, but then you spent the rest of the post disagreeing with what I said.  I just found that interesting.  The part that I underlined is what I really feel is the bottom of this conversation we're having.  You're feeling that I'm cavalierly dismissing the Scripture when I state that we should rely first on the Word IN us before we put our trust in what our minds interpret in what's been written.  But that's not what I was doing.  "that's" why I mentioned the "challenge" part.  The challenge is to try to embrace the voice within us "first" and "then" from there, read what the Scripture is saying.  The inner voice of his Spirit brings us to an ascended place in him so that we read from Grace rather than logic.

When we read from Grace, we'll see that it's no wonder that Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery, even though, those all around truly felt they LOGICALLY had reason to stone her.  Grace is not bound by logic.  But our mind is.  Until it's TRULY renewed by the Spirit.  Which, by the way, is really the reason why it needs to be renewed.  Spiritual renewal enables the logical mind to come to rest and become submissive to what the Spirit is revealing.  And unrenewed mind will always argue spiritual understanding.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 11:42:47 PM by Nathan »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2011, 12:35:52 AM »
I agree with very much of that Nathan (if not "all" of it - to know that, I'd really have to dwell on it a bit) - except for this part.  Look carefully at what I said.  "Appears".  That's why I'd ask you to not miss some things I've already said.  I'd prefer for this to be private, as we've had a few discussions in private before.  But as it's remained public, I guess I'll continue as such.  One of my reasons for trying to be less than direct when we've talked, is that I don't want to appear judging or condemning.  I've said several things repeatedly, which I'll repeat.   :laughing7:

I have many of my own mistakes, blindnesses, and misses of the mark (sin) - so I have no stones I can legitimately throw.  So maybe what I say here could be helpful rather than critical or hurtful?  What I've tried to carefully say, addresses this;  you said I think you cavalierly dismiss the scriptures.  THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID, NOR BELIEVE I HAVE EVER SAID TO YOU.  Notice;  I've said repeatedly I believe I know how you feel about the scriptures, that you respect them and refer to them.  I've also though said, perhaps too subtly, so that it appears I'M saying something different than what I mean - so I'll be very direct now with what I would prefer to be said privately, if at all.  You have much good to say.  I believe I know how you feel about the scriptures.  (ahead of time, I'll apologize and admit my own failures) but I believe in the midst of all that, you tend to make statements that could APPEAR to be dismissive, at least somewhat, of scripture.  (I'll add right here, it could be my own perception/interpretation/disposition).  In my first post, I gave you an example with the sentence I used of how I PERSONALLY see it/would say it, which really only added one word to your sentence.  The word would be ONLY or EXCLUSIVELY - i.e., "we shouldn't base doctrine ONLY or EXCLUSIVELY on what is written".  Do you see the difference between saying "we shouldn't base our doctrine on what is written", and "we shouldn't base our doctrine ONLY on what is written"?  Take that and go to the 'spiritual' discussion.  If in a conversation about scripture, I say "no, it's all spiritual".  Then IMO, that sounds like it intimates there's no literal.  If someone says "we can know God without a Bible in our hand", I say yes, but if we have  the scriptures (and we do) then is that statement even necessary?  At least without explanation and/or being expounded upon?  Because standing alone, that statement can APPEAR, give the sense of, that I don't think the scriptures are important or necessary. 

Now, you know what?  On one hand I believe I should just overlook this, and not "pick" at you about it.  And that's one reason I've tried to discuss around it, rather than be more direct.  (also, that I have my own logs, so shouldn't be picking at someone else's splinter).  But 2 things;  you've said others have accused you of "not thinking much of the scriptures" - so I'd ask, why is that?  Is it possibly because many times what God leads you to say may "push buttons", but ALSO, could be at least sometimes, that if you said something a little more carefully, it wouldn't APPEAR the way it's taken?  It wouldn't SOUND that way?  Secondly, perhaps my NOT being more direct and therefor clearer about this ("appear") has made it more confusing than it needed to be.  I've also thought you really didn't HEAR some of what I've said and sort of just talked about what you THOUGHT I meant and then used it as a platform to just continue pursuing your own thoughts and ideas;  sometimes even saying much "for clarification or education" that were not even addressing things I'd ACTUALLY SAID - but appeared to be what you'd THOUGHT I'd said or meant.  Again, I think I know how you feel, but maybe everyone doesn't.  Maybe I should have just said that to you in private in the first place - well, I think I did and have the copy of the PM to show it - but I could have done so more directly as in "I'm trying to help you brother".  Instead, it's probably just appeared to be criticism and disagreement.   :sigh:


I'm just sort of clearing the air here.  You probably feel like I haven't heard you, and I feel like you (and a few others) haven't really heard me and have assumed I'm against things that are spiritual - even though I've tried repeatedly to clarify that.  Unfortunately most of us, me included, often work off our assumptions and pre-conceived ideas, rather than off what people actually say.

I'd also suggest a heart check for us, me included, at this point.  What are we really trying to accomplish here?  Hopefully to love and prefer each other, seek to edify the body, and do the will of our Father.  For me, I usually need to be aiming more for that. 

I don't really need to say anything more about this.  Again, you have much good to share, and whether you believe it or not, I'm very much mostly in agreement with you.  I just hope you'll really hear what I'm really saying, what my intent is, and again, I'm sorry for even pointing this out or being judgmental to the point that this probably appears and probably is.  I have many of my own issues I need to be more focused on.  I believe we probably wouldn't have needed to get to this point if we'd both listened a little better and "let a little more go".   :mblush:

Ah, communication.  It's a wonderful thing - especially in black and white.   :happy3:

God's blessings, mercy, and abundance to you and yours.  James.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 02:20:06 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 02:39:20 AM »
No bud, I do totally hear you and I really don't mind this one being an open conversation because as I think I've told you in either private or open, you're one of those people I've enjoyed the pleasure of being able to converse both sides of the coin with without the conversation becoming bitter and rude or offensive.  Probably why you're a mod in the first place.  Blessed are the peace makers . . .you have a gift with that one for sure.

And more to the point of discussion, I to have two things.  One is . . .saying that you shouldn't base your belief on what you read in Scripture is actually what I meant.  I didn't mean to say "solely" on Scripture.  I "meant" I shouldn't base my belief on Scripture "at all".  By the time I pick a Bible up, I should already have a belief . . .I guess this might be better if I took "belief" out and placed "relationship" in.  My relationship isn't based on what I read.  It's based on the Word written "in" me.

Now, "in" that relationship, beings the author of Scripture is living in me, then it would only stand to reason that my relationship with the Father would then lead me to read Scripture so that the spirit can breathe on what's written so then both the written word "and" the Spirit of God can nourish what's alive in me already.  And there is a "reason" behind why I say that.  It's not to dismiss Scripture.  It's to avoid the pitfalls of deception from the mind of men.  That's what this whole thing has been all about from the beginning.  It's also why I tend to struggle from time to time on this subject in the avenue of a "forum".  Because most people who are drawn to this particular venue are those that embrace knowledge of what Scripture states through which we get all involved in our debates and word definitions.   So when I throw out the idea of what we're talking about, it creates waves by it's very nature alone.

What "is" the purpose behind pretty much anyone who posts or quotes a passage on the forum?  Is it not to direct other people's attention at their vantage point of what they think?  I don't know of "anyone" that purposefully posts stuff just to stir the bees nest and for no other reason.  I'd like to think that when I post what I post, that it's for the same reasons.  It's not to start arguments.  On the other hand, the nature of my perception often will stir things up without really trying.  It's like most everyone on this board who has embraced UR trying to then communicate to others without everything being tied to UR . . .very seldom can we ever walk away from any kind of indepth conversation about God with another person without at some point, having it go right into the depths of what UR is all about.  It's the same with me and dimensions . ..  everything is connected.  you don't "mean" to come off argumentative, but because "that's" where God has you, everything you see is from "that" perspective.

I don't "mean" for it to sound like I'm dissing the Scripture, but I'm not looking to compromise it either.  I really do believe that my relationship with God should be based on what his voice in me is saying, more than on what I think Scripture says.  I really do believe that's a big reason why there are so many different beliefs about "one" God and so many different religions and denominations claiming "they" are the most accurate in their rendition of who God is.  They are all basing their understanding according to what "they" think Scripture is saying.

Which brings me to point @2.  And that is, what I say is from the perspective of what I see.  Because others are not from the same perspective, they will likely see what I'm saying to be saying something completely different from what I intended.  So . . . are you saying I should step away from what I see so that others can make sense of what I'm saying?  That I shouldn't "go there" because too many will misunderstand?  That I should align my perspectives with others who aren't willing to align theirs with mine?

I see it as an opportunity to "stretch" others even if it means it may create a bit of tension.  It's a sign of growth.  If you "stretch" my thinking, you expand my horizons of understanding.  If you reject it, that's your decision.  But it's all based on this whole topic.  What is the source of my strength?  The written Word that my mind filters through?  Or the breathing Word "in" me?  One leads to knowledge, the other leads beyond it.

I can't help repeating myself on that one . . .it's the most predominant part of me today.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 03:03:43 AM »
No bud, I do totally hear you and I really don't mind this one being an open conversation because as I think I've told you in either private or open, you're one of those people I've enjoyed the pleasure of being able to converse both sides of the coin with without the conversation becoming bitter and rude or offensive.  Probably why you're a mod in the first place.  Blessed are the peace makers . . .you have a gift with that one for sure.

Not positive about that.  Sometimes I know I'm a pain in the rear.  But thanks :) 



And more to the point of discussion, I to have two things.  One is . . .saying that you shouldn't base your belief on what you read in Scripture is actually what I meant.  I didn't mean to say "solely" on Scripture.  I "meant" I shouldn't base my belief on Scripture "at all".  By the time I pick a Bible up, I should already have a belief . . .I guess this might be better if I took "belief" out and placed "relationship" in.  My relationship isn't based on what I read.  It's based on the Word written "in" me.

2 more things  lol.   1.  never on what's written, at all?    And 2 points about that;  How did you come to know anything about God?  Didn't it have to do with either someone reading scripture and repeating it to you, and/or you reading it yourself?  And, what about this, just as written;  "love your enemies"?  The way I see it, I can base not only a doctrine on that, but what I believe on that, and even a way of life on that.  Now, do I need the Holy Spirit to illuminate it for and in me?  Absolutely!  Do I need the Holy Spirit to teach me what that means, what it looks like, in what situations does it apply?  Absolutely!  Do I need the Holy Spirit to enable to me to do it, and to remind me when I'm not and when I need to?  Absolutely!!!    But can I base a belief on Jesus saying, in black/red and white, transcribed as written in letter, "love your enemies"?  Absolutely!     On the other hand, can I dismiss the Spirit and spiritual, only read the letters, and miss God?  Well, if I didn't already know Him (by Him knowing me), yes.  IMO, that's how they read the letters that "killed" them - because they missed Jesus, Who is the Essence of relationship.  Which brings me to point 2.  I personally see "belief" and "relationship" as 2 different things.  Many people believe many things without relationship.  IMO, it's the relationship and the Holy Spirit that flows through that, that teaches "true" beliefs.  But again, the spoken/revealed Word doesn't go against or annul the written - IMO, they work together.  And if the written isn't available to someone, God can still reveal Himself to their heart. 


I believe you answered a similar query before with "we're now in the 7th day [so it no longer applies]", but I just don't agree with the totality of that reasoning.  So I look at Paul saying that because the Bereans "searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true" so therefore they were "more noble", as a good thing, not that they were somehow deficient.   

Now, "in" that relationship, beings the author of Scripture is living in me, then it would only stand to reason that my relationship with the Father would then lead me to read Scripture so that the spirit can breathe on what's written so then both the written word "and" the Spirit of God can nourish what's alive in me already.  And there is a "reason" behind why I say that.  It's not to dismiss Scripture.  It's to avoid the pitfalls of deception from the mind of men.  That's what this whole thing has been all about from the beginning.  It's also why I tend to struggle from time to time on this subject in the avenue of a "forum".  Because most people who are drawn to this particular venue are those that embrace knowledge of what Scripture states through which we get all involved in our debates and word definitions.   So when I throw out the idea of what we're talking about, it creates waves by it's very nature alone.

OK :)

I don't "mean" for it to sound like I'm dissing the Scripture

I personally do tons of things I don't mean to.  Sometimes it's helpful for someone who's "on my side of things" and who's not just hostily trying to rip me to pieces, to gently help me see it, as it may not be something I want to continue doing, and can make some adjustment.   Sometimes, I truly am persecuted for Christ's sake.  Other times...  :2c:

 So . . . are you saying I should step away from what I see so that others can make sense of what I'm saying?  That I shouldn't "go there" because too many will misunderstand?  That I should align my perspectives with others who aren't willing to align theirs with mine?

Nope.  See above.

I  What is the source of my strength?  The written Word that my mind filters through?  Or the breathing Word "in" me?  One leads to knowledge, the other leads beyond it.

I can't help repeating myself on that one . . .it's the most predominant part of me today.


From my perspective, those aren't mutually exclusive things, where one has to be made to appear somehow less than the other - or in extreme instances, even unecessary.  I believe there's a balance, where "the whole counsel" of God, precept upon precept, is relevant.     And the "written Word my mind filters through"?  IMO, that doesn't have to be where it ends.  First of all, we're to have the mind of Christ (surrendered to Him, seeking Him, looking to Him as the Author and Finisher).  Secondly, if I'm praying about a scripture, asking for revelation/understanding, and looking to the Lord for guidance on it - opening myself to and listening to the Holy Spirit within my spirit to guide me on how that is to play out within me and in my interactions with others, that's something very different than "just my mind sifting through it".  If we have the relationship, and the mind of Christ, then Godly knowledge is not a bad thing.  It's when I approach it carnally, without that relationship, not seeking His revelation, not open to His guidance, not looking to HIM to fulfill it in me, that I get off track.   I believe all those things can be submitted to the Lord.  And then the Written becomes the Revealed.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 04:58:05 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline shawn

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2011, 12:00:10 AM »
There was a time when I was led by the doctrine of men.  Then there came a time when I used natural logic to think for myself about the Scriptures.  It led me to a place that made little sense and gave me little peace.  But, these were necessary steps.  They painted a background, tilled the soil and it is very apparent to me that it was needed for my growth.  During this time, I was discouraged to listen to the inner light because if it disagreed with the doctrines of men then it couldn't possibly be right, and would put me in danger of hellfire.  But, thankfully God has freed me of that.  I am able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in me.  And I accept what I hear as truth.  This influences the way I see Scriptures.  The Bible is very important to me.  What is being birthed in me doesn't conflict with Scriptures, but it does change the way that I read them.  It changes my understanding of them. 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2011, 07:11:07 AM »
There was a time when I was led by the doctrine of men.  Then there came a time when I used natural logic to think for myself about the Scriptures.  It led me to a place that made little sense and gave me little peace.  But, these were necessary steps.  They painted a background, tilled the soil and it is very apparent to me that it was needed for my growth.  During this time, I was discouraged to listen to the inner light because if it disagreed with the doctrines of men then it couldn't possibly be right, and would put me in danger of hellfire.  But, thankfully God has freed me of that.  I am able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in me.  And I accept what I hear as truth.  This influences the way I see Scriptures.  The Bible is very important to me.  What is being birthed in me doesn't conflict with Scriptures, but it does change the way that I read them.  It changes my understanding of them.

 :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2011, 07:40:17 AM »
I thought I'd been very clear that I don't believe all we need is the written.  But someone commented tonight in a PM something that caused me to think, well, maybe I've not always been clear enough.  So let me be clear.  I've never said all we need is the written, and that's not what I believe.  I believe the written (when given), the spoken (when provided) and the revealed (when blessed) work together. 

Blessings, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2011, 09:04:41 AM »
I thought I'd been very clear that I don't believe all we need is the written.  But someone commented tonight in a PM something that caused me to think, well, maybe I've not always been clear enough.  So let me be clear.  I've never said all we need is the written, and that's not what I believe.  I believe the written (when given), the spoken (when provided) and the revealed (when blessed) work together. 
Isn't it the same story told in two different languages?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2011, 09:34:33 AM »
2 more things  lol.   1.  never on what's written, at all?    And 2 points about that;  How did you come to know anything about God?  Didn't it have to do with either someone reading scripture and repeating it to you, and/or you reading it yourself?  And, what about this, just as written;  "love your enemies"?  The way I see it, I can base not only a doctrine on that, but what I believe on that, and even a way of life on that.  Now, do I need the Holy Spirit to illuminate it for and in me?  Absolutely!  Do I need the Holy Spirit to teach me what that means, what it looks like, in what situations does it apply?  Absolutely!  Do I need the Holy Spirit to enable to me to do it, and to remind me when I'm not and when I need to?  Absolutely!!!    But can I base a belief on Jesus saying, in black/red and white, transcribed as written in letter, "love your enemies"?  Absolutely!     On the other hand, can I dismiss the Spirit and spiritual, only read the letters, and miss God?  Well, if I didn't already know Him (by Him knowing me), yes.  IMO, that's how they read the letters that "killed" them - because they missed Jesus, Who is the Essence of relationship.  Which brings me to point 2.  I personally see "belief" and "relationship" as 2 different things.  Many people believe many things without relationship.  IMO, it's the relationship and the Holy Spirit that flows through that, that teaches "true" beliefs.  But again, the spoken/revealed Word doesn't go against or annul the written - IMO, they work together.  And if the written isn't available to someone, God can still reveal Himself to their heart.
Isn't the Bible the word of God. Isn't Jesus the Word.
For me it's simple:
The written is 100% the same* as the spiritual if not then one or more of the following applies:
a] The person doesn't understand what's written.
b] The spiritual stuff comes from the dark side.
c] The spiritual stuff are just voice is ones head. Contact a professional :-)

*=same quality, truthfulnes, etc
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2011, 06:51:09 PM »
Is the Bible the Word of God . . ..  in my opinion . . .no.  It's inspired "from" God, it contains words "of" God, it's a tool used "by" God, it can lead one "to" God and most importantly for me . . .it affirms the Word of God. 

But in and of itself, it's a book written by men who were transformed by God and yes, it's a book above all other books because of the potential power that can come from it.  But my issue has never been about the continuity of the Bible.  I use it ALL THE TIME.  I have a dozen of them myself with different translations and study helps.  But my stance has never been on questioning the validity of the Bible itself.  It's always been about the order of perspective by the ones who read, embrace and enforce it.  If we read it from knowledge, we pervert the spiritual power that it contains.  If we read it spiritually, not only do we ourselves become empowered by it's message, but our knowledge is greatly enhanced as well.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2011, 08:29:21 PM »
Good thoughts Tony, thanks.  I agree that the divinely spoken or revealed will NEVER contradict the written.

Nathan, I agree with this;  "If we read it spiritually, not only do we ourselves become empowered by it's message, but our knowledge is greatly enhanced as well."  We should do ALL things spiritually.


This is from a post in another thread.   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/rob_bell_love_wins_9429.msg118150.html#msg118150

James:

I usually say "the scriptures" as well, mainly because I don't want this particular argument and people's varying opinions/understandings from detracting from the primary point I'm often trying to make at the time.

However, I believe the scribes and pharisees misused the written Word, and missed the Revealed Word - Jesus.  They looked to and ONLY used the letter, and were not open to the Spirit and denied the Messiah.  IMO, that's how they failed.

I believe there's misunderstanding on BOTH sides of this issue - those that deny the scriptures, and those that get so dogmatic they insist on things like KJV-salvation and any other translations are of the devil - and then many variations in-between.

This is from a previous post I've kept for these purposes.  Hopefully it's helpful.

"My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens.  In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.   

IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh.  As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.

John 6:63 Jesus said "..the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".

John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.

I believe scripture (accurately translated, rightly divided, Spirit revealed - especially the originals) is the written Word of God, as evidenced by Jesus' statement Himself - John 14:23 JESUS (THE LIVING WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words".  (The Word saying "keep my Word".)

Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE LIVING WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".  (See it again, the Word saying the Word?)

Logos: Unchanging self-existent Word of God
  Psalms 119:89 "forever o Lord thy Word (logos) is settled in heaven".
Rhema: derived from the verb to speak. Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired.  God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word.  Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh.  But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word.  They operate in tandem.  They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.

I later inquired (again) of God about this topic.  He immediately let me know He had already let me know.  I went to the written Word.  These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).

I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard   
        2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
           :14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you

Mathew 13:18-22  Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22;  "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.


Mt. 15:3  "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition?  ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."

Notice the differences, [1] and [2];

Rev. 3:8  You have kept [1] my Word and you haven't disowned [2] my name ("Yesu")

John 1:14 The Word became flesh

John 8:31  Then [1] Yesu was saying..."if you stay in [2] My Word, you are truly my students"
          37  "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"

John 17:6,8  "I made [1] your Name apparent...they have kept [2] Your Word.  Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."

Shawn:

Terrific post.  I had never heard this point of view of the Word.  And, I must be one of them "fatalistic" folk because I do believe the Bible to be 100% inspired.  And while it's not all encompassing of my relationship with Christ, it's firmly founded within my walk.  2 Tim 3 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,  17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.  Doesn't seem like much wiggle room there...All Scripture is God-breathed.  We see the Scriptures inspiration, and function.  We don't worship the Bible but we do use it for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.  We have confidence in the Bible because it is indeed all God-breathed.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 08:38:57 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sheila

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2011, 10:12:10 PM »
 sometimes....the 'word come in flesh' may appear to utter something against the written word.  something unlawful even....such as....

   when Jesus 'word come in flesh' told them they must eat my flesh and drink my blood'   many quit him,at that comment.......I wondered why

   He would seem to almost purposefully stumble many that followed Him. To say something directly contray to written scriptures

       Oftentimes, I have prayed and asked Him concerning something....and go to the scriptures and open it to just the place that answers it. 

    Even a conversational quality may come from the written word....those words may speak directly to your heart and it is as if He is speaking to you.

t.   The Holy spirit must lead,teach,declare reveal

   and it is not limited by written word to do that.[the parables used to teach higher spiritual principles by the 'word come in flesh' for instance...was the spirit

   in Christ teaching. Everyday things can be used to teach also.  EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD...not just the written.

    I have had a person speak to me and answer a question I had prayed about, they totally unaware,but my knowing.

      I have written posts....and before anyone comment on it, be shown by the spirit what to reply. The spirit has had me speak a word to someone that I have no idea

 what it meant...but that person that received it new exactly what it meant.


     Sometimes the spirit takes you away you have not gone before[no written scripture to make you feel more 'comfortable?"

    I have found the leading akin to this...sometimes  writtenword,sometimes,visions,sometime dreams..sometimes direct utterances...by those seen andunseen.

    He is called wonderful counselor,teacher....and He will use whatever means He see's fit to teach you what He wants you to understand. Just as His Father

   who....spoke from a burning bush,spoke through an ass...made the sun stand still,spoke through the thunder.


   what we need to consider........is don't limit Him in any way.   Now, if I told you God spoke to me through my cat...what would your reaction be? :mshock:

   But this is written in the 'word' for your benefit. A donkey spoke and rebuked Balaam!!    all scripture is beneficial for teaching.....and what have you just learned


   but that He is not limited in any shape or form

Offline jabcat

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2011, 10:33:11 PM »
I agree sheila.   :thumbsup:    But if your cat told you it was now OK to commit adultery because you had passed into a new, higher spiritual plane in your life (against what's clearly written) I'd uh, suggest your cat was meowing out of the wrong side of its mouth.   :wink:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sheila

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2011, 11:15:30 PM »
LOL!!!!!!!rofl

     I just used that as an example :icon_jokercolor:      Love ya,Brother!!   

     But really,I've learned....'nothing is impossible with God" :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 12:18:09 AM »
However, I believe the scribes and pharisees misused the written Word, and missed the Revealed Word - Jesus.  They looked to and ONLY used the letter, and were not open to the Spirit and denied the Messiah.  IMO, that's how they failed.
Maybe it's not that black and white. Pot and kettle comes to mind to. I think it's a mix of things. Sure there were powerhungry leaders that ruled with the iron rod. But somehow I think lots of their mistakes were because they wanted to do good. It's clear Jews aren't allowed to work on Sabbath. So they are for example not allowed to carry heavy objects. Then the discussion starts.. what's work? What's heavy? What's not. I found the answer 2000 years later :winkgrin: Last week I've read a newsclipping of Jew that emptied all his pockets on Sabbath. In his mind even a lighter in his pocket means carrying. Means work. The man was no leader. So he wasn't forcing other to do the same. In his mind he does a good service to God. So perhaps the Pharisees did do similar things. Many good laws pushed to the extreme becomes what it was never meant to be.
Quote
and missed the Revealed Word - Jesus
They did. But at least they never believed God is Hitler on steriods. So they aren't the only ones that missed something. :mblush:


Quote
Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired.  God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word.  Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh.  But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word.  They operate in tandem.  They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
I think that's very well said. I don't know when "at that time" was but I never found posts on this forum that said translation where not inspired. On the contrary many try to go closer to the truth by looking at Hebrew and Greek.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2011, 12:22:07 AM »
sometimes....the 'word come in flesh' may appear to utter something against the written word.  something unlawful even....such as....
Misunderstandings. That's different from contradictions. Can only written things be misunderstood? Are visions always crystal clear? (that last question isn't rethorical)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2011, 12:36:53 AM »
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

What is the "bread alone"?

Maybe I am thinking in the physical flesh again but my understanding of this verse is.

Our bodies should not live by food alone, it also needs God's word to sustain it. I kind of think of it as growing up. Our bodies need food/bread to help us grow up to be healthy human beings and the word of God helps us to grow up to be spiritually minded. When I say spiritually minded I mean to, think on things that are good, (Phil. 4:8) and have the fruits of the Spirit.

CHB
:bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2011, 01:34:31 AM »
WW, didn't the pharisees believe in ET?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2011, 08:40:08 AM »
WW, didn't the Pharisees believe in ET?
Not completly sure but my answer no. Neither did the Saduccees. They didn't even believe in afterlife. ET never was more that fraction of Jewish belief. (even today among)
AFAIK dusring Jesus' time the Saduccees where in charge of the Temple itself and the Pharisees all other religious tasks. A strange combination because they didn"t even agree when passover was and First Fruits was. :winkgrin:

/EDIT
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:43:24 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2011, 03:11:46 PM »
 ww

  re;are visions always understood? Coarse not! I think of Peter when at the translation...wanting to erect three tents.   I am still waiting for understanding of what

  some things given me will play out.   It has been as long as 20+ years for some  visions to come to clarity.

    To me...the Highest fulfillment of the law in regard to the sabbath is this.......the removing of the 'burden' of sin off the people when you enter the Holy city.

    Father as the provider for His children.....provides sustenance for physical body of man.....but also spiritual substenance for spiritual body.  Jesus spoke of

   the Father clothing the grass with flowers[glory] a temporal thing[makes me think of 'token' of Holy spirit given us while in this body] the flower a promise of

  the fruitage to come.

    CHB your post is truth...the LORD INCREASE THE BREADTH,HEIGTH AND WIDTH OF IT,IN YOU.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2011, 03:40:53 PM »
ww

  re;are visions always understood? Coarse not! .
I expected that answer and agree with it.
So visions aren't better/worse that written text.
Both can be corrupted (translation error/bias or imagination) Both can be (mis)understood.
The main advabtage of the written text is that everyone can read it. Visions are so personal it can't be proved you had them.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Bread alone
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2011, 03:55:00 PM »

 Visions are so personal it can't be proved you had them.



And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD,
I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw:
and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.