Author Topic: Judas better if he had not been born?  (Read 46860 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #350 on: July 24, 2012, 06:42:56 AM »
TCBMark 14:21 For the Son of Humanity is going away, just as it has been written concerning Him; yet how terrible it is for that human through whome the Son of Humanity is delivered over! It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born.

The red words are clearly about Jesus. Note that those words caps. I think everyone agrees with this part?
But what about the blue/green words? They have no caps so they can never refer to a devine person.
God, Father, Him, Son, HS etc are always written with caps. So the fact that human is written without caps clearly shows it's not a divine human. But I have to add here that using caps is a decision of the translators. Most of the times it's very obvious but this verse seems not that obvious....
The verse 'indentifies' Jesus as "Son of Humanity" and "Him" So why half way during the verse switch "title"
(Son of Humanity is some sort of title imo)
I think it's also clear the blue human (no caps) delivers over the Son of Humanity. Jesus didn't handover Himself.
That leaves the green human (no caps)
First note that in KJV a ! is in the middle of the sentence. In TCB a new sentence starts.

a] No caps -> not divine -> not Jesus
b] The green human is in a second sentence so clearly points to the blue human.
c] "yet how terrible it is for that human" + "It would have been ideal for that human if he hadn't been born." ==> The second part just describes in other words how terrible it is.


Also not that TCB uses 'delivered' instead of 'betrayed'.
Betrayed is clearly something that Jesus didn't approve.
But 'delivered' is a much more difficult word. It can range from something very positive like "deliver a baby" to betrayal. Personally I think Judas acted by orders of Jesus. It may sound weird Jesus was seeking His own death but it was all part of the big plan.



transitive verb 
1 : to set free from restraint : set at liberty : release or liberate especially from control : rescue from actual or feared evil : FREE, SAVE *he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul— Ezek 33:5 (Authorized Version)* —  often used with from or out of *delivered him from captivity*
2 : GIVE, TRANSFER : yield possession or control of : make or hand over : make delivery of : COMMIT, SURRENDER, RESIGN —  often used with up or over, to or into *thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand— Gen 40:13 (Authorized Version)* *the constables have delivered her over— Shakespeare*
3 a : to assist (a parturient female) in giving birth *she was delivered of a fine boy* *the doctor has delivered several thousand women in his long career*;  also   : to aid in the birth of *sometimes it is necessary to deliver a child with forceps*  b : to give birth to *she delivered a pair of healthy twins after a short labor*
4 a : to disburden (as oneself) in words : give forth in words : UTTER, SPEAK, ENUNCIATE *he delivered his speech effectively*  b : to make known to another : COMMUNICATE *they delivered their ultimatum to the enemy*
5 : to send (something aimed or guided) to an intended destination *delivering a short uppercut to the jaw* *the frigate delivered a smashing broadside* *the pitcher delivered a curve to the batter*
6 archaic   : to unload (as a ship) of cargo : EMPTY
7 : to bring (as votes) to the support of a particular candidate or cause *couldn't deliver the votes of his ward*
intransitive verb 
1 : to set one free : DISBURDEN *a deliverance which does not deliver— R.W.Emerson*
2 : UTTER, DISCOURSE *he delivered beautifully but his speech had little real content*;  sometimes   : to express an opinion or judgment
3 : to give birth to offspring *patients that repeatedly deliver prematurely present special problems*
synonyms see FREE, RESCUE
  –deliver a jail : to clear a jail by bringing all the prisoners to trial
  –deliver the goods : to give results that are promised, expected, or desired

The caps are only the opinions of certain translators.  I doubt they existed in the original manuscripts. The human who betrayed Jesus, betrayed Jesus, ACCORDING TO JESUS. What good is the word of God if nothing the Logos says is what He said but is instead some trussed up dodge around our theological hiccups :o) I kno that we must force the actions of the participants such as Jesus in order to bow to the gods of absolute predestination, however, IMO Jesus was speaking honestly of the horrible consequences that came into Judas' LIFE because of THE AWFUL DECISION he made to betray the son of man. It was a decision predestined ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, who knows us all before we are born and all that we will do. Yet with the agony of conscience and the suicidal end of Judas, and his awakening within the fire of light that consumes every darkness- I can see why Jesus used such a pejorative statement as, "better if he had never been born".

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #351 on: July 24, 2012, 08:59:15 AM »
The caps are only the opinions of certain translators.  I doubt they existed in the original manuscripts.
Caps, puntuation and spaces didn't exist in the orignal Scriptures.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #352 on: August 31, 2012, 08:25:31 PM »
jUDAS AS THE SON OF PERDITION WITH THE SPIRIT OF SATAN DWELLING IN HIM..AS A LIAR AND THEIF THAT WOULD KILL THE ANNOINTED KING/PREIST

  WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF..IF HE HAD NEVER BEEN BORN


  YOU CAN BE BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND YOU CAN BE BORN OF THE DEVIL[OFFSPRING OF VIPER]

  OUR FLESH IS WEAK..IT ACCEPTS BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE SPIRIT TO MOTIVATE IT. jUST AS THE hOLY SPIRIT OF GOD GOES TO AND FRO

  IN THE EARTH TO ACCOMPLISH THE WILL OF GOD..SATAN'S SPIRIT DOES ALSO[JOB 1;7]


   JESUS WAS QUOTING A SCRIPTURE IN ECCLESIASTES ABOUT THE FUTILITY AND VANITY THE CREATURE WAS SUBJECTED TO


  CH 3;16   AND I SAW SOMETHING ELSE UNDER THE SUN; IN THE PLACE OF JUDGEMENT WICKEDNESS WAS THERE, IN THE PLACE OF JUSTICE

  WICKEDNESS WAS THERE


   CH 4  I SAW THE TEARS OF THE OPPRESSED-AND THEY HAVE NO COMFORTOR;POWER WAS ON THE SIDE OF THEIR OPPRESSORS-AND THEY HAVE

  NO COMFORTOR.   


  AND I DECLARED...THAT THE DEAD, WHO HAD ALREADY DIED,ARE HAPPIER THAN THE LIVING,WHO ARE STILL ALIVE



   but..

.BETTER THAN BOTH IS HE WHO HAS NOT YET BEEN,  WHO HAS NOT SEEN THE EVIL THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN



   IF THEY DO THIS WHEN THE TREE IS STILL GREEN..WHAT WILL THEY DO WHEN THE TREE IS DRY

LordsDaughter

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #353 on: September 05, 2012, 12:58:33 AM »
Quote
Judas better if he had not been born?


I think in putting the New Testament account of the reason for Jesus being born on Earth, one may be served in considering the Judas question in a different light than that what is prescribed by the scriptures that make him out to be one who was taken over by the adversary and is thus damned for eternity for betraying the son of man.

If Yeshua (Jesus) came to earth in order to take away all the worlds sins, and upon the cross confessed that his mission had been accomplished, how then was that mission to achieve it's goal? If Judas had not served his part in turning Yeshua over to those who sought him out so that he could commence to that end.

How else, in believing "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life", would the blood of the lamb afford redemption and salvation of the worlds people from their sin if Jesus had not spilled it on the cross?

And how else would he have come to be there, were it not for Judas setting the entire thing in motion, doing his part, according to the plan God had set for himself by electing to arrive on earth being born of a virgin and thus sinless, so as to take the worlds sins unto himself.

I don't believe the condemnation of Judas by scripture is contextually fair or credible in rendering his actions into a negative light. I think Judas acted according to what God had began as the plan of salvation and without Judas that plan would not have been accomplished. Jesus, at the last supper, commanded Judas to go forth and do what he needed to do.

In a room full of apostles, in the presence of the all knowing Christ, is it reasonable to imagine Judas, whom Jesus clearly knew and foresaw his intentions would have ever gotten out of the room, being he was about to go forth and turn Jesus over to those in the temple who sought him out for crucifixion for the crime of blasphemy? While Roman authorities sought Jesus for sedition.

Judas was part of the plan. And the scripture I believe indicates Jesus was well aware of this. Thus, in my opinion, Jesus is a hero for insuring Yeshua's mission was accomplished through the means that was deemed necessary by God's will.


Offline onlytruth

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #354 on: September 10, 2012, 01:00:48 AM »
Judas understood the kingdom

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #355 on: September 10, 2012, 05:56:34 PM »
Judas was a part of the plan, yet- so was Hitler, and so many others, such as Pharoah. The scriptures portray Judas in the light he ought to be portrayed in, a flawed man who betrayed his best friend for a little silver, but then, subsequently so regretted his action, condemning it himself within HIS OWN CONSCIENCE, that he spit out the reward of his treachery, which had turned to ash and took his own life because he could not bear the PAIN OF REGRET. Everything that has occurred will flow into God's eventual purpose, the reconciliation of all through the shed blood of Jesus and the glorious demonstration of the Father's love at the cross. (If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me). Nevertheless, along the way, the lessons learned by the wicked will be hard ones.

IMO Judas betrayed Jesus because of unbelief and greed- not because he understood the kingdom.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (1 Cor. 2)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline thinktank

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Re: Judas better if he had not been born?
« Reply #356 on: September 11, 2012, 01:38:41 AM »
Judas was a part of the plan, yet- so was Hitler, and so many others, such as Pharoah. The scriptures portray Judas in the light he ought to be portrayed in, a flawed man who betrayed his best friend for a little silver, but then, subsequently so regretted his action, condemning it himself within HIS OWN CONSCIENCE, that he spit out the reward of his treachery, which had turned to ash and took his own life because he could not bear the PAIN OF REGRET. Everything that has occurred will flow into God's eventual purpose, the reconciliation of all through the shed blood of Jesus and the glorious demonstration of the Father's love at the cross. (If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me). Nevertheless, along the way, the lessons learned by the wicked will be hard ones.

IMO Judas betrayed Jesus because of unbelief and greed- not because he understood the kingdom.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (1 Cor. 2)

Fantastico