Author Topic: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???  (Read 5152 times)

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Offline B_T

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Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« on: November 16, 2007, 04:22:55 PM »
I found some scripture that appear to teach that the age of accountability is a biblical doctrine:

Psalms 58:3-5
 
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

1st Corinthians 7:14
 
"For the Unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the Husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they Holy."

Proverbs 20:11
"Even a Child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right."

and more:

http://members.aol.com/twarren13/account.html

Offline Sarah

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 04:38:20 PM »
The guy makes some really good points biblically.

Even when I believed in ET, I always thought this doctrine was confusing because then wouldn't Adrea Yates be the most honorable women in the world?

And yet, the alternative was that children automatically go to hell....  :mshock:



Offline B_T

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 04:44:52 PM »
So do little children go to hell?

Offline Sarah

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 04:49:41 PM »
Quote
So do little children go to hell?

if so, I could never love or trust a God like that.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 04:58:02 PM »
Quote
So do little children go to hell?

we all go to same place BT... to the Grave .., not some mythical firey torture chamber...

We are born spirtually in the grave and our  physical bodies will return Physically to it....

Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline B_T

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 05:01:57 PM »
Yes,
 
God so loved the world that he made up his mind to damn a large majority of the human race...

Disgusting, huh?
But I have my truth in my heart and no church will take it away from me.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 05:03:45 PM »

But I have my truth in my heart and no church will take it away from me.
AMEN B-T :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Kratos

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 10:33:01 PM »
I am at work and will have to add the scripture reference later, but Paul said that he was alive once (spiritually) but when the law came it slew him for with the law comes the knowledge of sin.

God does not hold us accountable for sin where there is no law, but this includes the law of God written in our hearts. He, also, does not place the sins of the fathers on their children. So, I do not believe that we are born sinners through Adam's "original sin" as the orthodox teach. We are born flesh with a nature to sin, but as a child when we have no knowledge of the law of God, we are blameless.

At whatever age we know what God wants of us (the law of God comes) and we choose to disobey, this is sin and we die spiritually and await being born-again spiritually.

So, I do believe that there is an age of accountability, but it is not the same for all. And, we will not all choose sin the first time that we know what He wants of us. We may go many years with our relationship with God in tact until we willfully disobey and severe our individual spiritual umbilical chord (oops, there is the spiritual belly button argument).

John
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Seeking a Kingdom whose Builder and Maker is God

Freebird

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 07:38:41 PM »
I am at work and will have to add the scripture reference later, but Paul said that he was alive once (spiritually) but when the law came it slew him for with the law comes the knowledge of sin.

God does not hold us accountable for sin where there is no law, but this includes the law of God written in our hearts. He, also, does not place the sins of the fathers on their children. So, I do not believe that we are born sinners through Adam's "original sin" as the orthodox teach. We are born flesh with a nature to sin, but as a child when we have no knowledge of the law of God, we are blameless.

At whatever age we know what God wants of us (the law of God comes) and we choose to disobey, this is sin and we die spiritually and await being born-again spiritually.

So, I do believe that there is an age of accountability, but it is not the same for all. And, we will not all choose sin the first time that we know what He wants of us. We may go many years with our relationship with God in tact until we willfully disobey and severe our individual spiritual umbilical chord (oops, there is the spiritual belly button argument).

John

Very well said and I am in agreement!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 09:06:52 PM »
 :cloud9: Funny, I forgot this thread was on here and He had me thinking about accountability this morning. 

He brought back a time to me when my now 19 year old daughter was then about 2. She had never been spanked before. She was the one child I only half jokingly referred to as "the one born after the flood," because she was the only one born after I came to the Lord.

One day, I was struggling with the fact I had now told her 3 times, NOT to do something, and she kept on doing it. In my mind I was wrestling with, now how old were the boys when I first spanked them? And is she too young? And how would God want this handled?, on the first 2 incidences. By the 3rd, I thought, that's it, she knows what no means, so that means she's accountable, and I got her and just as I was drawing my hand back to make contact with her shorts, the Lord spoke to me as plain as I have ever heard Him, and said, "TENDING YOUR LITTLE GARDEN?" And He said it with an air of amused pride in His creation, is the only way I can describe it.

I cracked up, then cried with my little girl. My daughter was mortified as she had never known even the possibility of spanking her existed before that moment, because I had never done anything at that point but pour into her what He had been making life in me of His unconditional love. Well, His unconditional love also has judgment in it, the judgment of the tares. But she rarely needed correction again, as I witnessed firsthand the combination of the love and the judgment unto victory working in tandem.

Along about that time He also began to teach ME the kind of accountability He desires, for our good, as His judgments are unto victory. He did it by making it life in me about the wheat and the tares, and taught me that when a tare was rising up in me, it was because HE was giving it life, ie. the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, because if He didn't allow it to manifest we would not even know it was in our soul.

Now there is no shame in it for that reason, much as the spirit of condemnation also in our midst, would have us believe there is, because He made our soul and the enemy that sowed the tares into them in the night when we were asleep in Adam. Denial only delays the process, since He will make sure it manifests again until it is dealt with finally. We are the garden of Lord and the Master gardener is the one with a plan for a bountiful harvest of the nature of Christ.

He's been a very "hands on" kinda God with me, literally, LOL, so it is nothing to see me driving down the road, hand on my heart, praying in the Spirit because He has just revealed a tare that came in as a thought (unclean bird) to me that is desiring to find a place of earth/my flesh left that it can land on and make a nest/basket and invite over a few friends, just like the one that was on the baker's head in his dream he related to Joseph, thereby being hung (life of the Spirit choked out of him) by Pharoah. Babylon (confusion of the carnal mind) if allowed to stand in us, by this becomes a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Fortunately for us, by the grace of God, He gave us the fire of the Holy Ghost to burn up that kingdom, before it spills out of our mouth and defiles us.

This is why it's not what goes in a man's mouth that defiles him, but what comes out of it. Because we have a chance to burn it with fire, before it gets out of the mouth "gate" of the "city". I'll bet if we could literally see what goes on in the Spirit at will, it would look a lot like all the wars played out over the cities in the Word. Probably a lot like what John saw; one kingdom being destroyed and another being built, actually going on all at the same time, side by side. Thank God we know the ending. My :2c:. Blessings to all......
.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 09:12:32 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

wannabelieve

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 09:51:24 PM »
Here is a verse commonly used to teach that babies go to heaven when they die:

2Sam. 12:22 And he said,  "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said,  'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'
2Sam. 12:23  "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."


The context is David and Bathsheba's baby who died.

Sometimes people say that the fact that God didn't hold the Israelites 20 and under accountable for their unbelief at Kadesh Barnea (and the resultant failure to enter Canaan) is an indication that God has an "age of accountability" regarding salvation.

There are no clear teachings in the Bible on this issue. I've read books on the subject and researched it pretty carefully. Most opinions are based on a person's understanding of the character of God. They conclude that a loving, just God wouldn't send babies to hell.  If they could only extend that view to all mankind, they would be getting somewhere!  :sigh:

Armistead

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2008, 05:27:27 AM »
I don't believe in age of accountability. I believe Christ is the only way, even if you don't know it. That all that die in Adam will be saved through Christ.

The same with Indians and all others that never heard of Christ. They will come to that knowledge in due time...knowing him even after death, they will gladly accept him.

Offline jfraysse

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2008, 09:19:20 AM »
Howdy B_T:

I agree with Armistead! :thumbsup:

I also see no Biblical texts which support the Doctrine of the "Age of Accountability" but I think the idea might have sprung from the Jewish tradition of Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah or the "coming of age" celebration for Jewish boys and girls.  Unfortunately, your question is also closely linked to various ideas concerning God's Sovereignty which is a HUGE can of worms.  Nevertheless, referring to the link you provided, Tony Warren writes: "God has the Sovereign right to Save whosoever He will regardless of who, what age, how, what they did or didn't do, or their understanding level. That is, indeed, what Sovereignty means!  Yes, there is an age of accountability. The Biblical age of accountability is CONCEPTION!"

So, from the above, babies, even aborted babies, may go hell. Brother Warren goes on to write, "A child who will be wicked and unsaved as an adult, was wicked and unsaved as a child".  He even unabashedly uses 2 Kings 2:23-24 as a proof text where the prophet Elisha curses 42 children for making fun of his bald head and then God (allegedly) honors Elisha's curse and sends two she bears to tare the little ones to shreds.  So, young kids can get ripped to pieces and burn forever in hell if "men of god" don't like their jokes?

Brother Warren also seems to mock secular and civil laws which protect kids from being tried as adults when he writes: "this is simply a natural humanistic response in sentimentality related to man thinking more of himself than is justified. i.e., we naturally all want to think nice things about children".

While I agree with the link author that there is no Biblical Age of Accountability, I also find his tenor and use of some Biblical references repulsive.  In addition, I reject his apparent belief in predestination which can be refuted by hundreds of verses that seem to extend salvation to everyone who "calls on the name of the Lord".  Admittedly, the Bible is self contradictory on the concept of predestination but, for the record, I reject the idea because it paints our Father as a capricious, inconsistent respecter of persons in direct conflict with Acts 10:34 and James 1:17.

Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

jabcat

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2008, 10:06:09 AM »
Howdy B_T:

In addition, I reject his apparent belief in predestination which can be refuted by hundreds of verses that seem to extend salvation to everyone who "calls on the name of the Lord".  Admittedly, the Bible is self contradictory on the concept of predestination but, for the record, I reject the idea because it paints our Father as a capricious, inconsistent respecter of persons in direct conflict with Acts 10:34 and James 1:17.

Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:

Hi John.  I've been thinking off and on lately about predestination.  I believe in UR.  However, I can see where folks that aren't able to see UR get their predestination beliefs from in scripture, I just don't believe they get the whole picture.  I actually believe predestination and UR go together, not that they're exclusive of each other.  I do believe God has elected to choose (or chosen to elect :) certain in this age for belief, but then the rest later...not that the rest will be fried.    On topic, wrt to the age of accountability...I'm not dogmatic on this, and am willing to learn..but as I understand right now, I'm thinking our spirits come from God and exist in our flesh, beginning with a fetus...that our spirits aren't necessarily young to begin with.  So, if a child were to die "prematurely" that spirit would still stand before Jesus and go through whatever is necessary to end up confessing Jesus as Lord, just like everyone else...probably wouldn't take much for that one, I'd guess...But I do believe there would have to be a recognition of such, because I don't believe scripture teaches "a way of innocence"...it teaches the only way is through Jesus...I hope that makes some sense, right or wrong...God's blessing.

Offline jfraysse

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2008, 06:03:03 PM »
Hello Brother Jabcat:  Yes, I too believe in UR, always have.  I also think I understand your POV and accept it as at least one possibility if not the correct interpretation  Thanks!  :thumbsup:

The one possible issue I have with your understanding is that the Bible makes many, many promises to believers benefits, if you will, of knowing the Lord.  So, if God chooses who will believe sooner, rather than later, even if all are ultimately saved, it still seems preferential to the (early) chosen believers and I just don't believe that I (as a believer) deserve this (arbitrary?) privilege.

Personally, I think either Paul missed the Father on the "election thing" or his original texts, which we don't have, were mistranslated and/or altered to further advance the idea that certain "chosen" groups enjoy "God's Favor" (tribalism), but this subject and those of Election and Bible inerrancy are off topic for this thread so I will desist.

It is enough for me that I have been "elected" if this doctrine is true, yet I am both humbled and puzzled by it.  Nevertheless, I am and shall forever be grateful!

Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

martincisneros

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 11:10:31 AM »
On Romans 9-11 and Biblical election, I really don't think that the subject ever changed from Romans chapter 4.  In other words, to me, the election of Romans 9-11 is regarding the promise of being heir of the world and not regarding whose sins God passes over because of their ignorance and who God burns alive in temporary hell or snuffs out like a candle until Christ makes them alive again at the time that He's delivering the Kingdom up to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28.

martincisneros

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2008, 11:25:23 AM »
In other words, some are called to inherit the world, and some are just called to be inherited.  As far as "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated," that's explained to us in the book of Obadiah, that God has eliminated Esau's descendants from being a distinct family line in the earth.  Elhanan Winchester said in his "Dialogues on the Universal Restoration" that the descendants of Esau were absorbed into the family of Israel at the time of the Maccabees (spelling?) and no longer exist as a distinct family line.  The book of Obadiah simply says that they don't have any physical descendants any more.  That's usually how "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" worked out in the Old Testament, viz., in how God worked out the physical destinies of one's descendants.

V.I.D.

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 03:04:54 PM »
IMO :
Saying or thinking about small children that might be burned in an eternal hell, or whatever hell there might be is evil thing . I think that God is perfectly just and that maybe some kids may get kicked on the butt ,but not in this way people try to explain things .
I think that to some degree we are accountable and in some moments we are accountable . I think that there is no age of accountability .
I think that we do not and still can not fully see the perfect justise that God has and there may be some punishment for some children the same way there is punishment here for some children ,so that they could learn some responsibility ,but i will not see it as tortures,or hells or fires  i. e. being fried alive .. NO . God knows better how to deal with bad people and i meen that he knows how to deal perfectly just with realy bad people ,what is there to say with small children that are still learning and are so inocent.
I think that Jesus already took the sins of the world on His showders didnt He ?
Imagine if we believe the doctrine of age accountability ..well here we go you get 16 and now you are accountable and becouse of that, you will be sent to eternal tortures ,or burned in hell .
If that is true that good king, that killed so many kids ..My ! We have to thank him and worship him becouse he saved thousands of children from the big posibility that they might burn in hell by killing them before they have reached the age of 16 . Now let us start doing the same . Will it not be better ?
NO !
There are many scriptures in the Bible ,but it is our simple minds working with bad spirits ,that make things look stupid and that misunderstand too much stuff .


2 kings 2 23  ...Well i looked at that thing and can say that the guys there were not small children ,but YOUTHS and that they were being very bad to the priest . I think that it is a TEACHING scripture, that shows people to not be mockable or evily judging towards priests ,or other people about looks and other things . And i dont think that it necesarely meens that God will send bears to eat someone's children or eny people ,becouse they did stupid things .


Blessings and hugs .

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 10:24:59 PM »
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. 13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD. 14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
Ex 30:11-14 (KJV)
=> 20 years old


39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Deut 1:39 (KJV)
=> For me that includes infants, but also mentally handicapped of all ages.
There is also a difference between knowing and knowing.
My dog also knows he isn't allowed to do certain things. And when he gets caught he sort of repents.
Does that mean he's accountable? Of course not because it's a dog. The dog 'knows' it's wrong. But that's more trained behavior as really understanding why.
Same goes for a 5 year old child I think. They know things are wrong but at a different level as adult know things.

There is also medical proof the way a brain processes info changes between birth and 19-20 year old.
That transformation is not about learning but real physical changes in the brain.
In a way that proves exodus...

http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/theageofaccountability.html => lower part of the page.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline studier

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Re: Age of accountability - a biblical doctrine???
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2008, 10:59:30 PM »
Quote
There is also a difference between knowing and knowing.

 :thumbsup: Finally someone who sees it as it is and says it. Not many people understand this. It is one of the few lessons Jesus taught me which has stuck. There is knowing and then their is understanding why, what, when, where, and how. I can know Saturn exists, but I might not know why, what, when, where and how it exists.