"I will vomit those lukewarm in their faith out of my mouth"

[jimbo99]

Right now, I am pretty much the definition of a lukewarm Christian, and probably will be for some time.  This scripture (too lazy to look up exactly where in the Bible it is now, my apologies) always disturbed me, making me think that only a handful of uber-Christians would be able to escape eternal damnation.  But that's not me and it never will be.  I will never try to poke my nose in who people marry/sleep with or what women do with their own bodies, I will never try to convert my friends, I will always respect their own personal beliefs, and I will especially never believe that everyone in the world deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond their control (having a sinful nature).  I am sure that God, if He exists, understands and respects where I'm coming from, having created me and all.  But enough of my soapbox lecture, what do you make of this apparent Bible threatening?

[PaoloNuevo]

I hear there are ways of casting out spirits and diseases and the way its done is through vomit so the spirits can exit the body... Perhaps Jesus will vomit out the unclean and lukewarm spirits in you, that you may be pure after your period of backsliding?

This in no way affirms eternal damnation, but I believe is aligned with the same teachings that those fruitless branches that don't abide must be cut off to be pruned, or a cutting off from the brethren... e.g. hand over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but spirit saved on the day of the Lord Jesus... stuff like that...

[shawn]

I hear there are ways of casting out spirits and diseases and the way its done is through vomit so the spirits can exit the body... Perhaps Jesus will vomit out the unclean and lukewarm spirits in you, that you may be pure after your period of backsliding?

This in no way affirms eternal damnation, but I believe is aligned with the same teachings that those fruitless branches that don't abide must be cut off to be pruned, or a cutting off from the brethren... e.g. hand over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but spirit saved on the day of the Lord Jesus... stuff like that...

Yeah, I have to agree with your last paragraph.  There are consequences to walking our own path.  That certainly doesn't mean burning in hell for eternity.  God has his best in mind for us when he gives us an instruction book on holy living.  When we walk outside of that path, there will be some sort of correction.  Living how we see fit leads to death...there is no doubt in my mind about that.  I think most of us have found ourselves in the spot where you are at.  I took that path and it almost took my life and sanity.  Only by the grace of God was I delivered from that season of rebellion.  The desire for me to serve God with all of my heart took many years.  It came from the realization that my best plans gave birth to destruction in my life.  It took watching the hand of our God who loves us all agape, remove desires and move in me.  He moved in ways I couldn't do for myself. 

[jabcat]

I hear there are ways of casting out spirits and diseases and the way its done is through vomit so the spirits can exit the body... Perhaps Jesus will vomit out the unclean and lukewarm spirits in you, that you may be pure after your period of backsliding?

This in no way affirms eternal damnation, but I believe is aligned with the same teachings that those fruitless branches that don't abide must be cut off to be pruned, or a cutting off from the brethren... e.g. hand over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but spirit saved on the day of the Lord Jesus... stuff like that...

Yeah, I have to agree with your last paragraph.  There are consequences to walking our own path.  That certainly doesn't mean burning in hell for eternity.  God has his best in mind for us when he gives us an instruction book on holy living.  When we walk outside of that path, there will be some sort of correction.  Living how we see fit leads to death...there is no doubt in my mind about that.  I think most of us have found ourselves in the spot where you are at.  I took that path and it almost took my life and sanity.  Only by the grace of God was I delivered from that season of rebellion.  The desire for me to serve God with all of my heart took many years.  It came from the realization that my best plans gave birth to destruction in my life.  It took watching the hand of our God who loves us all agape, remove desires and move in me.  He moved in ways I couldn't do for myself.

    Do we live "in the kingdom" (righteousness, peace, joy - closeness in relationship) or linger on the outskirts, perhaps even outside the gates? 

[WhiteWings]

I'm not so sure it's about spirits.
I think it's more like constantly switching between beliefs.
If there is lukewarm there is also hot and cold.
Hot and cold are opposites; so at first thought if the spitting out is about a wrong religion then either hot or cold would be even more wrong as lukewarm.
So why is only the middle ground spit out?

Secondly if Jesus spits it out it is/was already in Him.....?

Could it for example be about Jews who follow Jesus but still do Temple sacrifices?

[shawn]

I'm not so sure it's about spirits.
I think it's more like constantly switching between beliefs.
If there is lukewarm there is also hot and cold.
Hot and cold are opposites; so at first thought if the spitting out is about a wrong religion then either hot or cold would be even more wrong as lukewarm.
So why is only the middle ground spit out?

Secondly if Jesus spits it out it is/was already in Him.....?

Could it for example be about Jews who follow Jesus but still do Temple sacrifices?

I think it's certainly a possibility.  It may be refering to those who want to straddle the faith fence...wishy washy.  But, I will say this there are many subjects I take an agnostic stance on...ie soul sleep.  I think the danger of reading that into this verse or any associated verse is the fact that it makes us dogmatic.  And, in dogma there is rigidity and a closed mindedness that inhibits growth.  If God changing my views on a subject ascribes me to the wishy washy crowd then sign me up.  There are absolutes of my faith ie Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of mankind, but there are many issues with which I just don't know or my stance is tentative.

I really think this is more of a statement about the trial and error of trying to serve two masters.

[thinktank]

It's about the great tribulation. Those who are no clean enough, must go through a fiery trial, so that they can be harvested at the end of the age. Some people are dead against the great tribulation, and cannot understand why God would allow such an event, but God has already allowed tribulations in the world since the time of Christ. I think the great tribulation is Gods way of speeding up harvest, so that the first batch, those who believe, can be harvested and for God to deal out his chastisment on those who remain.

[WhiteWings]

Hi TT,

Cold --> Lukewarm --> Hot

If "Hot" is the saints then my guess would be both cold and lukewarm are part of the fiery trial. 

[Aleax]

Right now, I am pretty much the definition of a lukewarm Christian, and probably will be for some time.  This scripture (too lazy to look up exactly where in the Bible it is now, my apologies) always disturbed me, making me think that only a handful of uber-Christians would be able to escape eternal damnation.  But that's not me and it never will be.  I will never try to poke my nose in who people marry/sleep with or what women do with their own bodies, I will never try to convert my friends, I will always respect their own personal beliefs, and I will especially never believe that everyone in the world deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond their control (having a sinful nature).  I am sure that God, if He exists, understands and respects where I'm coming from, having created me and all.  But enough of my soapbox lecture, what do you make of this apparent Bible threatening?

I can relate. Sometimes I don't even know if I can call myself a Christian. Very often I feel more like a spiritual seeker, still. My faith is rather weak at best and I can't really say I feel a connection between myself and God, except for sometimes when I pray maybe. When I take this to more advanced believers they say I shouldn't base my faith on feelings. Then they say I should just "hold on to Jesus" and "keep my eyes on Jesus". However, I never fully understood how I'm supposed to hold on to someone I cannot touch or keep my eyes on someone I cannot see? I believe one major hindrance is that I do have a lot of hatred and bitterness on my heart. It says somewhere in the Bible that if we expect God to forgive us our sins, we have to first forgive our enemies. I have never fully succeeded in that. I can fold my hands and utter some beautiful words about forgiveness, but that obviously won't automatically change the fact I still feel bitter towards the people who've done me wrong.

I do have some spiritual experiences, though. For example, last year I had a period when I was in a really bad place spiritually, and I even wrote here on TM that I was ready to commit suicide over the ET doctrine. I don't remember how it went down exactly, for I was very broken and alcohol was in the picture, but I do remember asking God to "please show me the whole picture". Very shortly after that I bumped into this diagram when surfing the web. That material answered some questions about UR I hadn't found answers to before. Coincidence? I don't think so. I like to think God actually answered my prayer.

Sorry I seem to digress... Anyway, as for Bible threatenings, over time I've sort of learnt not to worry too much. I see it as both a positive and a negative thing. On the negative side, indifference can lead to carelessness. But on the positive side, I've learnt to sort of trust on God's love I guess. It's like... I give this my best shot, and I hope I can make it. But should I fail, the worst that can happen to me is I'll be banned from the Millennial Kingdom, and I'll have to go through the Lake of Fire. For God does not cast men off forever. Neither will he be wroth forever. As Aldai Loudy would put it: The goal of universe - God All in All.

[WhiteWings]

Anyway, as for Bible threatenings, over time I've sort of learnt not to worry too much. I see it as both a positive and a negative thing. On the negative side, indifference can lead to carelessness. But on the positive side, I've learnt to sort of trust on God's love I guess.

There is another option....
If you don't care to much you can search for other things instead of rereading that a bunch of hell verses on daily basis.

It's like... I give this my best shot, and I hope I can make it. But should I fail, the worst that can happen to me is I'll be banned from the Millennial Kingdom, and I'll have to go through the Lake of Fire.

Not necesserily.... there are 3 harvests. Only the third one seems to be LoF. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/harvests_god_5946.msg119417.html#msg119417

No worries Aleax; you have a big B tattoed on your forehead 

[Nathan]

Gonna bump this up a bit again . . .got me to thinking . . .
God would rather I be hot (on fire for him?) or cold (rejecting him) but to be complacent with him makes him sick . . . Okay, I get why the luke warm guy gets pushed out . .but why does the cold guy stay in??  Just thinking out loud here, but could it be because at least the one who's cold toward him is acknowledging him?  It may be negative, but at least he's showing something?  Or . . .could it be that the one who's cold is one that is hungry . . . how is it that complacency is worse that rejection?  perhaps rejection is evidence of disillusion, so that's something God can work with . . .but complacency is no interest at all.

Looking at it from an intimacy perspective . . .ever try to procreate with someone who didn't care whether you did or didn't?  As compared with someone who adamantly didn't . . .the one who rejected openly at least gave reason for communication . . as opposed to the one who was numb about all of it.

That one has always intrigued me.

[claypot]

My 2 cent brain suggests to me that hot water is definitely good for something and so is the cold water. Now compared to the benefits of hot and cold, lukewarm is not beneficial, at least not anywhere near what hot and cold are.

cp

[WhiteWings]

I dont believe your far off there WW?????---

Sure I am. I know everything. (I'm just very good at hiding it)

There is also another way to look at it.

Hot=saints=obviously good.
Cold=pagan=not good but they don't know better. So they can't really be blamed for what they do.
Lukewarm people know (almost) as much as the saints but sometimes act like saints and other times like pagans. Serving two masters. Taking benefit from both sides. etc

[Taffy]

Sure I am. I know everything. (I'm just very good at hiding it)

well dont keep it--share it

[gregoryfl]

Gonna bump this up a bit again . . .got me to thinking . . .
God would rather I be hot (on fire for him?) or cold (rejecting him) but to be complacent with him makes him sick . . . Okay, I get why the luke warm guy gets pushed out . .but why does the cold guy stay in??  Just thinking out loud here, but could it be because at least the one who's cold toward him is acknowledging him?  It may be negative, but at least he's showing something?  Or . . .could it be that the one who's cold is one that is hungry . . . how is it that complacency is worse that rejection?  perhaps rejection is evidence of disillusion, so that's something God can work with . . .but complacency is no interest at all.

Looking at it from an intimacy perspective . . .ever try to procreate with someone who didn't care whether you did or didn't?  As compared with someone who adamantly didn't . . .the one who rejected openly at least gave reason for communication . . as opposed to the one who was numb about all of it.

That one has always intrigued me.

I believe, Nathan, that this is a very close thinking on the matter. I would not see it as the difference between on fire for him and rejecting him, but instead as how one relates to him, whether in their triumphs or in their disappointments. I think what is hated so much is indifference toward God, as though he is not in the center of a situation.

When I read the Psalms I see this hot and cold all over the place. Same with Job. In here we see, not a rejection of God, but a mixture of emotions ranging from being elated with him for what he has or is doing, to being upset and wondering what in the heck is he doing to them, and when is he going to put it to a stop.

I call that the difference between having a REAL relationship with our Creator, rather than a RELIGIOUS relationship to him, where we taught to think it is so bad to be upfront with God no matter how we feel, even in the times when we are stinkin thinkin. :)

Ron

[micah7:9]

My 2 cent brain suggests to me that hot water is definitely good for something and so is the cold water. Now compared to the benefits of hot and cold, lukewarm is not beneficial, at least not anywhere near what hot and cold are.

cp

I may agree with you CP still what jumped out for me was "lukewarm is not benefical" the first thing I thought of was when I tell my grandson to wash his hands. He'll use cold, but he wont use hot, but if I set the water at lukewarm he likes it and seems to wash his hands longer.  Just my thought at the time that lukewarm is benefical in away. I will not attempt to interpret.

[reFORMer]

Minnesota is very cold in the winter.  In the 70's I lived there in several cabins in the country.  I cut down and split my own wood to keep warm, dragging it in on a toboggan.  I had an outdoor toilet.  I didn't have a car and I lived alone.  I survived on food stamps and a little farm work.  In the summer I cut and  baled hay.  When stacking it I would throw two bales at a time.  Each one weighed 75 to 150 pounds, depending on how dry it was.  I also took care of various animals and milked goats.  They have to be milked whether you want to or not.  Even if you're so sick you have to drag yourself with your elbows, you can't miss even one milking.

During that time I read from the greatest flowering of English theology known as the Puritans who wrote from about 1675 through 1725.  I would turn the radio on when I was in my cabin.  Classical music was always playing in the background.  Somehow I got the idea of turning off the music.  When I was left to myself I discovered heights and depths in my consciousness, laughing and weeping, continually offering up praise and prayer throughout the day.  I didn't express like this with music in the background.  The sound would flatten my affect.  It would lower my highs and raise my lows, leveling my moment to moment existence by distracting me from the reality of myself and God with me.  It made me live a more shallow life.

Mark 9^49-50; (Concordant Literal Translation)...
49 "...For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
50 Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."

God finds us more palatable to consume when we've been salted with fire.  We need to burn with passion, express value differences and deeply care; yet, not to the extent of provoking fights with one another, if possible.

[Green-Arrow]

If an older brother goes to their father about a sibling that's not doing too well & this elder brother's looking a bit green about 'em, does this mean that we give up the younger brother for adoption that's not doing too well in the household? Lord Jesus's spitting ministry brought healing in the Gospels; REMOVAL OF BLINDNESS OR A CURE TO THE MUTE, under the Law, but we expect it to bring damnation under grace? Some translations have the word "vomit" instead in Revelation, but later in Revelation the only thing forcefully coming out of His mouth is the Sword of the Word of God. A prophet spitting you out, sorta, would involve your name & specifics being brought up, wouldn't it?

Then why would our Lord Jesus going to the Father looking a little green during His intercessions imply a brother or sister in Christ is about to fall off of a cliff into an eternal volcano? John could have simply been saying they'd be called out by name in public rebuke, since Lord Jesus taught doing that sometimes. But for some reason, preachers have looked for an additional Scripture to throw an additional brother or sister away for whom Christ died when Revelation 3 mentions discipline and repentance, gold (perhaps faith) brought from the fire and the possibility of soothing garments for the cold. The passage mentions eye salve, which could easily be referring to Jesus's spitting ministry again, from the Gospels, for those who believe that's the way to translate that.

[deances]

Because I think that although many of us might think that we know what is "right" and "wrong" behavior - ii.e., how God wants us to behave, perhaps it is most useful if we tell Him that we would like to do what He thinks is right and pray that He guides us accordingly toward that behavior, whatever that behavior might be.

[jabcat]

Because I think that although many of us might think that we know what is "right" and "wrong" behavior - ii.e., how God wants us to behave, perhaps it is most useful if we tell Him that we would like to do what He thinks is right and pray that He guides us accordingly toward that behavior, whatever that behavior might be.

Agreed.   

He also tells us "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right."  2 Timothy 3:16   

Then as you indicate, to be in close fellowship, get His revelation, leading, and Spirit empowerment is vital.  It can't just be our own wisdom and effort -  "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."  Jn. 15:5

[dajomaco]

Sure I am. I know everything. (I'm just very good at hiding it)

well dont keep it--share it

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
God would not and did not wish any to be pagans.
Hot = Grace
Cold = The perfect keeping of his laws without grace.
The mixing of the two destroys each other, and apparently leaves a bitter taste
 Hot=saints=obviously good.
Cold=pagan=not good but they don't know better. So they can't really be blamed for what they do.

[sheila]

......they went out from us,because they are not of us. Acts 20;30   1 Peter 4;12.   he who marries will have tribulation in the flesh

    very good figs and very bad figs/cold and hot..either so bad that you didn't eat them in the first place...or if you did eat them they turned your guts[lukewarm]

     He seperates the people one from another,sheep/goats...cold hot...unlawful mixing......tokogae is mixing.....the promised land vomited out

   the people for their sins before the Israelites took possession. Christ/Kingdom/is our promised land

    we all will bear the image of the corruptible[fallen angels/cast out]temporally[tokogae] and the image of the incorruptible[Christ]eternaly

      what will be vomited out of Christ's mouth is this temporal state of man.  either make the fruit good or evil....and streams should not run bitter and sweet

     when Christ 'vomits' out of His body the lukewarm....the Holy spirit no longer teaches them


   you guys brought up a lot of good points on your posts!

[Cardinal]

 

[dajomaco]

The opposites in the bible hot or cold.
Are not good guys HOT doing what they think will please God.
Bad guys COLD doing things they know will not please God.
That is just an elementary use of this worlds wisdom.

The opposites in the bible are Old Man and New Man.
To be in communion with God one must be holy.
Not holy as some denomination would pronounce Holy,
but holy as you are convinced in your own mind.
No on knows your mind but you and your sprite.
When you think of God. You are conscious of
 who you believe him to be and who you are.
You are aware of the relationship between the two.
When you allow yourself time to study that relationship.
You are either convinced that it is a good relationship and going to get better.
Or a bad relationship going to get worse.

That relationship seems to change second by second moment by moment.
until you dwell upon the cross .The center of all unchanging things.
The center where hot and cold meet .Dead center of hot and cold is not Luke warm.
The sword of the spirit is sharp enough to divide hot from cold.
The pathway between hot and cold is so narrow that if you touch
 either side you become Luke warm.

When you are convinced and conscious of a good relationship
 with God, because of the cross. That is as good as it gets. Like the natural sun the more time you spend in its radiance the more people will notice.

When you add the time you've spent being conscious
 of a good relationship with God to eternity .
You get eternity plus this time. This Time   
Is your reward in Heaven. This Time is your crown. This time will be eternal and all will see . This Time will be your works that are not burned.

This Time plus eternity is not an equation this worlds wisdom has an answer for .
This Time plus eternity equals reconciliation.
(tx2)+e =r 

[eaglesway]

Right now, I am pretty much the definition of a lukewarm Christian, and probably will be for some time.  This scripture (too lazy to look up exactly where in the Bible it is now, my apologies) always disturbed me, making me think that only a handful of uber-Christians would be able to escape eternal damnation.  But that's not me and it never will be.  I will never try to poke my nose in who people marry/sleep with or what women do with their own bodies, I will never try to convert my friends, I will always respect their own personal beliefs, and I will especially never believe that everyone in the world deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond their control (having a sinful nature).  I am sure that God, if He exists, understands and respects where I'm coming from, having created me and all.  But enough of my soapbox lecture, what do you make of this apparent Bible threatening?

In the beginnig of that prophecy Jesus walks among the 7 Lampstands, which are churches- and holds in his hands the 7 stars- which represent the shepherds of those churches. 

IMO, The spewing that Jesus does, to those who are typified by the church of Laodicea, is rejection from the privilege of being Lampstands for him in the world and priests of reconciliation in the age to come. It has nothing to do with "eternal damnation". It is like the story of Jacob and Esau in old testament. Esau loved this world, so his brother Jacob was chosen over him to carry the prohetic promises of God forward in his generation. I know it may be hard to understand right now, but this privilege is a source of such joy and meaning to those who know it, that such a threat would carry much weight.