Why shouldn't I sin

[Kept]

Beautiful Post Mickiel   

God is amazing in His goodness!

kept

[wilmont]

I hold that the wages of sin resulting in GUILT is SPIRITUAL DEATH or estrangement from G-d (this becomes our focus).
The Holy Word never says physical death was a punishment.

[wilmont]

I also don't necessarily think Yeshua was perfect in His flesh (but much more perfect then I can ever be), since he was Mikvahed by John for repentance of sin, (I got some issues with some things), but He is now alive in a PERFECT SPIRIT.


I hold to a Jerusalem based view of the soul....meaning we are in our souls now (not the hellenistic view of bodiless souls).  In this all men are already created as a perfect spirit, and given an animal type soul body, which eventually returns to the ground.

We are to be bodily resurrected now / firstborn from the dead peeps(those who see and enter into Kingdom ahead of time), and when we die we will be in our perfected spirit state as Paul stated in his commentary in 1 Cor. 15.

[wilmont]

Was it a sin (transgression of G-ds law) to partake in the knowledge of all things?
What did G-d say?

Its a SIN if you eat this, and I will kill you?

No, He said if you eat you will die.
Life of man is really not contained in the BLOOD (this is the life of the animal soul / ref. Lev. 17), life of man is really contained in the SPIRIT (Yeshua is trying to teach).

The RESULT of knowledge of all things, was man would be estranged from G-d by his own GUILT, not punishment by his creator in his personal forever torment in bodiless soul doctrine by the god of hades.  G-d by His Grace and Mercy allowed man to physcially die so man could be ultimately reunited with His Creator in spirit.

[Mickiel]

Was it a sin (transgression of G-ds law) to partake in the knowledge of all things?
What did G-d say?

Its a SIN if you eat this, and I will kill you?

No, He said if you eat you will die.
Life of man is really not contained in the BLOOD (this is the life of the animal soul / ref. Lev. 17), life of man is really contained in the SPIRIT (Yeshua is trying to teach).

The RESULT of knowledge of all things, was man would be estranged from G-d by his own GUILT, not punishment by his creator in his personal forever torment in bodiless soul doctrine by the god of hades.  G-d by His Grace and Mercy allowed man to physcially die so man could be ultimately reunited with His Creator in spirit.

 Interesting. I have seen certain things in your writtings, which lead to other things. I have 2 questions for you, if you would endulge me. Are you a Druid? Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and came to earth, died and was ressurected?

If I can change that to 3, do you believe the bible is the written word of God?

Peace.

[wilmont]

Was it a sin (transgression of G-ds law) to partake in the knowledge of all things?
What did G-d say?

Its a SIN if you eat this, and I will kill you?

No, He said if you eat you will die.
Life of man is really not contained in the BLOOD (this is the life of the animal soul / ref. Lev. 17), life of man is really contained in the SPIRIT (Yeshua is trying to teach).

The RESULT of knowledge of all things, was man would be estranged from G-d by his own GUILT, not punishment by his creator in his personal forever torment in bodiless soul doctrine by the god of hades.  G-d by His Grace and Mercy allowed man to physcially die so man could be ultimately reunited with His Creator in spirit.

 Interesting. I have seen certain things in your writtings, which lead to other things. I have 2 questions for you, if you would endulge me. Are you a Druid? Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and came to earth, died and was ressurected?

If I can change that to 3, do you believe the bible is the written word of God?

Peace.

A Druid?  LOL

[wilmont]

I believe Yeshua is the son of G-d.
That G-d did resurrect him.
That he was in his ark for 40 days.
And then G-d took his perfect spirit home (Eccl. 12:7).
I am not a follower of the Gnostic, Mystery religions of the Nicenes, which later re-interpreted and made a new Bible.

The NT was not given to replace, surplant the Tanach, but was compiled many years later, for a group of replacers, who thought they were replacing Israel.

New assembly called Church replaces Israel
New Bible replaces Tanach
New god replaces former mean G-d
New instruments of escaping hades (salvation) including priests and magic blood and flesh.

[Mickiel]

I believe Yeshua is the son of G-d.
That G-d did resurrect him.
That he was in his ark for 40 days.
And then G-d took his perfect spirit home (Eccl. 12:7).
I am not a follower of the Gnostic, Mystery religions of the Nicenes, which later re-interpreted and made a new Bible.

The NT was not given to replace, surplant the Tanach, but was compiled many years later, for a group of replacers, who thought they were replacing Israel.

New assembly called Church replaces Israel
New Bible replaces Tanach
New god replaces former mean G-d
New instruments of escaping hades (salvation) including priests and magic blood and flesh.

Well thank you for your explanations, they explain much to me that I have already discerned. I have seen many views of God, and examined many interpretations of those views. Part of a life of belief, will always involve interpretation and change. And although change is a wonderful thing, it is not always wonderful, if the change interupts the interpretation of truth. Then there are root issues that spring forth. If the interpretation brings us closer to God, then we are headed in the right direction, we may not properly understand the interpretation, but at the least, we are headed toward one day understanding it.

This is why God needs to be involved in our understanding, because without his involvement, at some level, we can be easily misdirected.

I will only say this much more, because everytime I visit Tentmaker, I always see certain influences sweeping through its ranks. When the influences are flushed out, I usually am on the short end of that stick. But those things are going to occur, this is a free place to visit. This is not unique to Tentmaker, it is occurring everywhere that I can see that different beliefs can convene in fellowship.

It makes me yearn for the time when Gods Spirit will swoop down on a group, and every will interpit the same thing, no matter what their belief may be.

God has done this before, and I believe he will do it again.

Peace.

[Kept]

Hi Wilmont

Do you not believe any of the NT is truth? Im not sure I understand you.

kept

[Steve]

Sin is defined as missing the mark. The greatest sin that man makes is looking for a messiah that walks on two legs and saves them from sin.

The messiah, like the kingdom of God, is found within. When God overshadows a person with his holy spirit they give birth to Emmanuel (God with us). The new spirit that God sows in us is the new birth. That spirit will grow and bring about the second death within us - death to the former adamic nature. It is God's spirit within us that the becomes Yeshua (salvation of YHVH) that al men seek.

There is only one God and no other beside him.

Steve 
Brother in Christ

[Kept]

Hi Steve,

Yes, I see it the bible as inward events as well, that is what is life to me now. And Im thinking Wilmont is speaking the same but cant really tell.

I was thinking how he said

New assembly called Church replaces Israel
New Bible replaces Tanach
New god replaces former mean G-d
New instruments of escaping hades (salvation) including priests and magic blood and flesh.

It is so true that organized religion has reduced the scripture to witchcraft. And have indeed replaced the ot with the nt. When in my experiance the OT has come alive in me and is a within book. I find Jesus Christ alive in the ot just as in the nt.

anyhoo, I dont know if your comment was to me but just chatting at ya lol 
kept

[Steve]

Hi Steve,

[Snip]

anyhoo, I dont know if your comment was to me but just chatting at ya lol 
kept

Hi Kept 

I was just responding to the topic of SIN in general. Isreal is the name that is given to the new heart that God writes his laws upon. The new heart understands these laws and fullfills every jot and tittle of them because it sees how the natural law is only a set of pointers towards greater spiritual laws. The new heart can do this because it has the spirit of God dwelling within it and renewing it.

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Steve 
Brother in Christ

[wilmont]

Hi Wilmont

Do you not believe any of the NT is truth? Im not sure I understand you.

kept

I look at the NT as a COMMENTARY.  What happens within fundamentalism (which I can fall prey to as well), systems are developed as if from the authority of God, so these can never change. A NT system developed over time from a particular group who chose a particular group of writings as their new BIBLE.
 


 

[wilmont]

Hi Steve,

Yes, I see it the bible as inward events as well, that is what is life to me now. And Im thinking Wilmont is speaking the same but cant really tell.

I was thinking how he said

New assembly called Church replaces Israel
New Bible replaces Tanach
New god replaces former mean G-d
New instruments of escaping hades (salvation) including priests and magic blood and flesh.

It is so true that organized religion has reduced the scripture to witchcraft. And have indeed replaced the ot with the nt. When in my experiance the OT has come alive in me and is a within book. I find Jesus Christ alive in the ot just as in the nt.

anyhoo, I dont know if your comment was to me but just chatting at ya lol 
kept

Yes.

Example;

Lev. 17:11 (life of animal / creature soul is in blood)
Lev. 17:13 (you are not to eat the blood of any creature)
Jer. 31:29 (every man dies because of his own sin)
Romans  6:7 (physically dead people are totally freed from sin)

Animal blood was given FOR SACRIFICE, not HUMAN BLOOD (Lev. 17).
This blood was not to be eaten or consumned (Lev. 17)

Why were animals given for sacrifice?
Was G-d saying the animal substitute was equal to a man who never sinned (as type in Yeshua)?
Was G-d saying that animal substitute was equivalent to a sinning man?
Why then not substitute a man for another man as the pagans did?

Because each man is responsible for his own sin (Jer. 31:29 as one example).

But yet G-d has allowed man to be totally freed from sin when we physically die (Rom. 6:7).
 2 points;

Those under animal sacrifice still physically died.
Those under Yeshua sacrifice still physically died and die (good remez in Romans on this).
We all still physically die!

What can we say of the purpose of sacrifice, if we will ultimately be freed from sin when we physically die?

Sacrifice was for SPIRITUAL DEATH  until the time of physical death when we will be in perfected state (Heb. 11 and 12 again).  When we loose GUILT / FLESH BLOOD is when we are in perfected state.

So does this mean that G-d has need of sacrifice so he can be appeased for a penalty?
No..because in sacrifice man SUBSTITUTES HIMSELF FOR HIMSELF, to be as if dead and in a spiritualy perfected state / guilt free (Rom. 6 again).

That's what Yeshua was / is (IMO) trying to TEACH,  the world through the SPIRIT.
SACRIFICE YOURSELF through the SUBSTITUTE.  Animal sacrifice was not given or needed FOR GOD it was GIVEN by G-D FOR MAN TO START NEW BORN AGAIN....not stay stuck in trying to appease HIM.


Its not as simple for people who are really WAY OF TRUTH minded, to just accept that a man can be a replacement for an animal sacrifce, when it is against the very word of God they claim to follow?  To me it is a form of idolatry (on a personal level, not that I would try to offend) to believe that a Yeshua is just a replacement for an animal, and that there is some magical component to flesh blood (which they later developed doctrines to eat their god).
If a person does not believe in their version of this form of god appeasement they go to a place of firey torment that the Greeks held to.

So I hold that if the commentary does not add up (which it does not as shown in above example concerning sacrifice in what is now Pauline Christianity), then there must be another explanation that we must seek to understand.

[Gabe Grinstead]

Oh my, I laughed out loud that the Druid comment...

He coulda been like "Yeah Dude! I am on the Galadad server, and am a L50 Druid!" (Shamless DAoC reference - computer game)

ROFL... Still, the most hilarious thing I have read today and I needed a smile! :D

[reFORMer]

     The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture.  The commentaries like to explain it with a Latin term to sound like they know what they're talking about.  They say the plural "heavens" is majestis pluralis, meaning plural only to communicate the exceeding glory of heaven.  In reality there are three (3) heavens, (2 Co 12:2) corresponding to the dimensions of spirit (where peculiarly God's presence is), soul (psychic realm,) and body (the heaven of earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.)  Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.)  While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.
     When I bring up God when talking to strangers, whether believer or not, they usually change the subject to Ethics, "Do you think such and such is a sin?"  It seems there is some prior commitment that functions as a veil to keep out the unworthy that is seen in the common misconception that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven.  Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not.  When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to,"not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.)
     The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam.  Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values.  While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of us go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerfull and everywhere.  Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance.  We are destined to ultimately enforce through love this blissfull glory in all the universe and continue after this universe is folded up for a keepsake.
---James Rohde
P. S.  I neglected to say that all our transformation into His image is so that God has beings that correspond to Him, are of His own kind.  This is with whom He can be intimate.  He wants to be loved by a bride.  Sin stops progress into this change, even reverses it, producing death rather than glory, separation rather than intimacy.

[Redlettervoice]

Thought it worth repeating:

The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam.

 Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values.

 While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerfull and everywhere.

  Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance.  We are destined to ultimately enforce through love this blissfull glory in all the universe and continue after this universe is folded up for a keepsake.
---James Rohde

A mouthful!

[martincisneros]

The oldest and most asked question towards Universalists. I was asked this yet again. As usual I dont have a clear answer prepared. What is the best response to someone who wants to know why they should avoid sin.

Romans 4 says that God justifies the ungodly.  Period.  And to those who believe this about Him, their faith is accounted as righteousness.  That's the setting for going into Romans 5 when He tells us that the same many who were made sinners through Adam are the same many being made righteous through Jesus Christ.  Romans 6 comes afterwards, speaking to the same many who were made sinners through Adam that are now the same many made righteous through Jesus Christ and says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT DAMNATION when it gives a chapter-long response to this question as to why believers should present themselves to God as alive from the dead, ready for their newness of life through the same glory of the Father that raised Jesus Christ, so that being dead to all of the infirmities of Romans 7, they can rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory that it says in Romans 8 that there's therefore now no condemnation to the many who are in Christ Jesus, who formerly were the many in Adam, and along with no condemnation, there's therefore now no separation from the Love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord for the same many who were made sinners through Adam who are now the same many made righteous through Jesus Christ -- because Jesus Christ is an imitator of God Who justifies the ungodly.  Period.  And to those who believe on Him Who justifies the ungodly and have their faith reconned as righteousness, they'll reign through the abundance of grace and this GIFT of righteousness in this life like a King EXPRESSING THE WILL OF HIM Who has all power and all authority both in heaven and in earth!!

Kapish?

[jabcat]

Martin, I don't disagree with anything you say.  However, and though it's something I admittedly am still in need of progressed revelation/understanding on, IMO there's still a "reap what we sow" effect...still a "presenting our bodies a living sacrifice"..."if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins", etc.  Perhaps the key to living what many call "a Godly life" is just what you say, walking in a "living grace", recognizing it, a mindset of "in Him I live and breathe and have my being".  As you intimate, when Paul talked about struggling with the flesh, his dilemma was he couldn't do the "good" he wanted, and he ended up doing what he didn't want to do...his solution was that Jesus was His answer, His covering, His redemption from His flesh...both present and future.  I believe he still wanted to please the Lord and presented himself with an attitude/wish of obedience.

I believe the initial question is an important one that folks do ask about UR, and one I've personally had to a degree.  My answer to myself and to a friend that asked me the question is, 'love...because we love Him Who first loved us enough to save us all...a desire to please our Father".  But again, I agree, the only way we can do that is in His grace, because my efforts will never be enough.

God's blessing, James.

[Gizmo]

"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I wont go to hell. I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

Sin Jesus fulfilled the law, and Paul said Jesus erased the handwriting against us [the law].  Therefore there is nothing God holds against mankind.  So in my mind your friend can't "sin", meaning offend God.

However, he can sin/wrong others.  If he wants to live imprudently, what would stop him is the natural consequence of unwise actions.  If he wants to sleep around, he risks disease.  If he wants to use drugs, he risks jail time. 

God's opinion of us/our standing before Him and the natural consequences of actions here on earth are not the same thing.

Giz

[martincisneros]

As the Lord starts extending life spans in the next few decades and people start living WAY past 100 again, a lot of this is going to wind up being "if I'd known I was going to live so long, I wouldn't of...." with bodily aches, frustrations, and pains that few amongst us have ever experienced.  Medical science, through the Lord's guiding hand, will probably cure everything that we're dealing with right now, but so much of this life is "put out one fire, and another one breaks out," so there will probably be some diseases related to lifestyle that we've never heard of yet, even as the different cancers, blood sugar issues, bone issues, muscular issues, eye and ear issues, and viruses become vague memories of mankind. 

There is relief in the near future for people with all of these issues that we've known up until now where people haven't quite been able to get their diet just right because of all of the modern conveniences/curses of the industrial age/technological age.  Great White Sharks have over 10,000 teeth in their lifetime.  Hydras, a certain type of jellyfish, bacteria, and certain other organisms are considered in biology to be "biologically immortal," meaning that if there isn't any excessive toxins that they come in contact from that they can't bounce back from, or some form of excessive trauma, then they'll literally defy the aging process century after century after century.  This is the area of cutting edge research in the anti-aging field being studied at Cambridge University and various other schools, research institutes, etc.  A lot of people with credible credentials are saying that 180 years to 500 years for a human being is probably the next big leap that we'll take in our science, and that this will probably be the gift of the 22nd century, if not a little sooner.  God said in Isaiah that people's lives would get extended to where they'd live the same life spans as trees, once again.

I think that a lot of our "moral questions" will be resolved by these kinds of breakthroughs because of the "sowing and reaping" principle that's been mentioned.  A lot of our sins that people are trying to say nowadays aren't sin probably "won't do" 200.  The consequences will probably become evident -- even without any intrusional viruses, bacteria, and parasites -- when we get much past 120 years old.  In the pre-grace days this lead to harder and harder hearts, so via the Vella (sp?) supernova, the incestuous situations and other factors God had to shorten the life span in order to accomplish His purposes in those previous ages.  But I believe that along with the increased life spans of the very near future that we'll see increases of God's grace, God's Presence, etc., etc., that we've never seen before because of the present day ministry of Jesus Christ in His High Priestly ministry.  Sin will become too old fashioned for many people, but for the sin cults of the near future that'll insist upon keeping the mysteries of iniquity alive, the horrors that they'll experience in their bodies and circumstances prior to their departing from this life will justify all of God's ways and commandments to them at the point of their death when they "meet their Maker" as the old saying goes.  And as it says in Ezekiel about those coming through those judgments, they're KNOW the Lord, that He is the Lord, and they'll never open their mouths again to challenge His Way, because of their shame.  The book of Isaiah says that very soon in our day that it'll become an oddity for anyone to die at 100 years old or younger.

[jabcat]

Very interesting Martin.  Thanks.  So IYO, besides what you've stated, where do you see the future going wrt things like 1) the millenium, 2) Jesus' literal return, 3) judgment/GWT, 4) Lake of Fire, 5) with UR and the reconciliation of all, the resurrection?  It sounds like you see scripture stating things just keep getting better and better in this age(?), or do you see an event that ushers us into a next age to which you're referring? Thanks, James.

[martincisneros]

Hi jabcat,

I do believe in an absolute global conquest through the preaching of the true Gospel prior to the resurrection of judgment, the new heavens and new earth, and Jesus being amongst us again, bodily, on the new earth.  I don't believe that a single unbeliever will be left on the earth prior to the judgment day.  I would refer you to the writings of B.B. Warfield and H.A.W. Meyer along these lines. Although they were Calvinists who didn't see anything regarding an each and every single individual type of Universalism, their exegesis on these points regarding everyone on the planet actually being brought to Christ is priceless.  I'm not a theonomist because Paul's clear about the law being completely gone.  I'm not sure what I believe about partial preterism yet.  But the Scriptures are clear to me about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.  I believe all of the Scriptures regarding God restoring the years that the locusts have eaten.  I believe that Hebrews chapter 8 is at the very least, problematic for premillenial dispensationalism because I don't believe that at any point in the New Testament that the walls are rebuilt between Jew and Gentile that Paul said that Christ tore down.  I believe that all of the Old Covenant promises were made to Jesus Christ, the way that Paul explains in the New Testament. I don't believe that Jesus Christ comes back to do what He emphatically told the Church to do, as the premillenialists would have us believe with regards to the discipling of the nations.  He comes back, literally and bodily, simply as heir of all things to a new earth. 2Peter 3 is pretty plain that when Jesus Christ comes back, it all goes up as an offering before the Lord.  No dividing of the resurrections, which would contradict Daniel, the Gospel of John, Paul's preaching in Acts, et. al.  I don't believe that the Old Testament ever prophesied about two gospels, one to Jews and another one to Gentiles, but I believe that the New Covenant is the New Covenant and all of those promises are realized through Jesus Christ exclusively.  Therefore, the millenium is the golden age conclusion of the Church Age.  I was a dispensational premillenialist the first 31 years of my life, simple because that's what I'd always been taught, and then within the last couple of years I started noticing problems with that view in the stricter translations of the Bible, such as Rotherham's and the Concordant.   In theology what I'm saying here is known as Postmillenialism, Absolute Postmillenialism, or Eschatological Universalism (which isn't connected to, but is easily supportive of the 'each and every' type of Universalism that all of us are in agreement about), and to tie this back to the original purpose of this thread: I believe that all of the greatness that's been restored through Jesus Christ, along with life, fruitfulness, and boundless love is the reason for staying out of sin.  The destiny of each of us, even in this life, through Jesus Christ is absolutely glorious...if we'll just obey the Lord!  Otherwise, we forego the glories that are rightfully ours through the work of Christ until the new earth.

[jabcat]

Quite a bit to think on, thank you.  God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

Our view of the future determines how we govern our "now" and how we treats others.  Any place tolerated for "not sure if I'm going to make it; I'm barely going to make it, et. al." and the pressures of the flesh will revive and our relationships will die because we'll become the servants of sin while our view of the provision of God is skimpy, negotiable, substituteable, replaceable, irrelevant, nonsequitar, foolish, mistaken, debatable, etc. 

Our view of the eschatology of our own personal lives is our own personal prosperity theology.

The flesh will always become an idol when we view God's grace as insufficient, therefore we'll have to go through such and such anyway.  You simply don't have time for anyone when your flesh is requiring your undivided attention.  The only reason for it to require that is uncertainty of the future, uncertainty of the provisions, and straining our fellowship with the Written Word because we're not believing that the Blood of Christ covers that particular provision that God has spoken to us about.