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eternal sanctum

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Why shouldn't I sin
« on: August 26, 2007, 07:01:36 PM »
The oldest and most asked question towards Universalists. I was asked this yet again. As usual I dont have a clear answer prepared. What is the best response to someone who wants to know why they should avoid sin.

Here is their exact quote:
"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I wont go to hell. I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

How do I answer this?


Offline FineLinen

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2007, 08:23:56 PM »
"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I wont go to hell. I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

How do I answer this?



Our heavenly Father has made us subject to the futility of sin "not willingly" or "not by any choice of our own", but by reason of Him who has made it so. The Scriptures declare that in one man (by one man's disobedience), we have been "made" sinners, or the "whole race has been constituted / rendered sinners". The whole mass of mankind has been rendered sinners in one man, and the whole race of mankind will be rendered/ constituted righteous in one Man, the Man from the glory, the Last Adam!

Yes, there is most certainly punishment for sin, but punishment has one purpose and one purpose only, change and transformation, or correction, not unending correction, but change that leads to the peaceable fruits of righteousness.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline studier

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2007, 08:37:59 PM »
We all reap what we sow. That is really how you answer it. You might be saved in Jesus Christ from eternal torture and torment, and might be saved in Jesus Christ concerning your annialiation, but you still will have to pay the cost of making bad decisions when we sin. It causes stress, tears, fears and being thrown to and fro in every wave that comes your way, and it isn't just us who deal with those consequences, our neighbor, our children, or children's children have to deal with the consequences of our one sinful act or lifestyle. When you want to continue to consciously sin, it is a selfish decision.

squint

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 11:13:06 PM »
The oldest and most asked question towards Universalists. I was asked this yet again. As usual I dont have a clear answer prepared. What is the best response to someone who wants to know why they should avoid sin.

Here is their exact quote:
"So what is the punishment for sin?

Death
Quote
What's to stop me from doing whatever I want?

The threat of eternal torment in fire sure hasn't stopped "christians" from sinning.  And God sure isn't stopping anyone from sinning either.  So what's to stop anyone from sinning? 

One does not "sin" in "love."  Yet "believers" commit the greatest sin by hating their fellow mankind to the extent that they promote their neighbors whom they have been commanded to love, to instead be eternally torched.  Go figure where the greatest sinners are.  They are sitting in the pews.
Quote
I wont go to hell.

If one wants to be a blinded slave of the devil their entire lives, then that's what they are and that will bring anti-reward enough right here in this world.  We reap what we sow.  I always remind "christians" that I still accept every eternal torment scripture, as being unto our CAPTORS "as it pertains to our flesh and minds" who are "not us."
Quote
I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

Servants under threat are exactly that.  They merely serve to save their own hides.  If that threat is removed, then we see who "they" really are, and God is not fooled by them "keeping" from sinning under threat.  He knows "who" they are in any case whether they keep a wrap on it or not eh?

squint


eternal sanctum

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 12:04:10 AM »
All great answers! Thanks!
Now, I already have some ammo for this but say the person sinning isn't a Christian and is claiming to have a happy life. How would you evangelize this person? Assuming they are (so far at least) not reaping any major consequences of their ongoing sinful lifestyle. In other words what does a Universalist say to evangelize the lost? Why should they accept Jesus as their Saviour?

Offline studier

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 01:24:43 AM »
Why should they accept Jesus as their Saviour?

Because He is. Why should you accept your grandfather is your grandfather? Because he is.

In other words what does a Universalist say to evangelize the lost?

There are people who have no hope, when you present that hope, they have hope again. Wouldn't you like to know that you are not what you have been told?

squint

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 01:27:29 AM »
All great answers! Thanks!
Now, I already have some ammo for this but say the person sinning isn't a Christian and is claiming to have a happy life. How would you evangelize this person? Assuming they are (so far at least) not reaping any major consequences of their ongoing sinful lifestyle. In other words what does a Universalist say to evangelize the lost? Why should they accept Jesus as their Saviour?

Someone coming to belief will not always cease from "sinning" in any case.

Tell them the truth:

They are Gods offspring and should live accordingly. (Acts 17:23-29)

1 John 4:7-
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Knowing this, they "come to the fold" by The Shepard of hearts, 'cause they already are His.  I gave up on the 4 step routine long ago.


Offline willieH

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 03:35:10 AM »
willieH: Hi ES... welcome to Tentmaker!  :thumbsup:

The oldest and most asked question towards Universalists. I was asked this yet again. As usual I dont have a clear answer prepared. What is the best response to someone who wants to know why they should avoid sin.

Here is their exact quote:
"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I wont go to hell. I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

How do I answer this?

This is the most typical confrontation of UR... I have encountered it many times... here is what I say to them...

Quote from: ES
"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I won't go to HELL. I'll eventually get to heaven."

My answer:  So what you are saying is:  "what you WANT" is to do other that what GOD WANTS?   :dontknow:

If you are so inclined, then GOD has NOT yet called you, for when GOD calls... his TRUE SERVANTS respond, because upon that CALL, they NOW seek to do HIS WILL...

Your words... "whatever I WANT" ...is not about HIS WILL, rather is about YOURS... and displays what you actually "want"!

Quote from: ES
"And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point."

My answer:  CHRIST commanding is NOT reason enough to spread the Gospel?   You display by your words that you have NOT been called by Him, for it is HIS WILL that calls for the furthering of the Gospel...

If CHRIST has truly CALLED you, and you are now HIS SERVANT, then you shall SERVE HIM... by doing as He commanded... not hoping or expecting to be rewarded for that service...  It is NOT up to us to question that command, but to obey it and fulfill its CALL upon our lives...

The results, should they contain HELL or HEAVEN, are not to even be considered by us as our motive to further the Gospel... The RESULTS are to be left to HIM... 

If we are motivated by the anticipation of gaining HEAVEN, ...then selfishness is our motive and we are trying to EARN or WORK our way to HEAVEN by spreading the Gospel...

Quote from: ES
"Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

My answer:  Another display of NON-CONVERSION... for if you were BORN AGAIN, or CONVERTED, such an alternative as noted above would not appear...

This kind of comment only displays that the one making it wishes to CLING to SIN, and that CHRIST's WILL to SAVE His Children, is not the motivator in that experience... rather, what this one might GAIN is his/her motivation...


 pEAce...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS ...willieH   :handshake:
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 04:50:06 AM by willieH »

Jacob1207

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 04:30:38 AM »
The question, why should I refrain from sinning if I'll eventually get to heaven anyway?, seems to be a very immature question to me.  It seems akin to asking "Why shouldn't I break my leg if doctors can set it and it will eventually heal?" or "Why shouldn't I travel from New York to Chicago by flying across the Atlantic, Eurasia, and the Pacific and then taking a connecting flight from Los Angeles?  I'll still get there in the end."

You might also point out to him that doing the right thing simply to get a reward or to avoid a punishment in the first of Kohlberg's six stages of moral development.  The question doesn't seem qualitatively differt from "why shouldn't I rob a store if I won't get caught?" 

Offline studier

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 05:16:09 AM »
The question, why should I refrain from sinning if I'll eventually get to heaven anyway?, seems to be a very immature question to me.  It seems akin to asking "Why shouldn't I break my leg if doctors can set it and it will eventually heal?" or "Why shouldn't I travel from New York to Chicago by flying across the Atlantic, Eurasia, and the Pacific and then taking a connecting flight from Los Angeles?  I'll still get there in the end."

You might also point out to him that doing the right thing simply to get a reward or to avoid a punishment in the first of Kohlberg's six stages of moral development.  The question doesn't seem qualitatively differt from "why shouldn't I rob a store if I won't get caught?" 

Very good

Mickiel

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 07:24:13 AM »
The oldest and most asked question towards Universalists. I was asked this yet again. As usual I dont have a clear answer prepared. What is the best response to someone who wants to know why they should avoid sin.

Here is their exact quote:
"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I wont go to hell. I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later. I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

How do I answer this?




Kind of reminds me of the old saying, " If God wanted men to fly, he would have gave them wings." God gave the law of gravity, but men fly anyway on built wings. And God is not against them flying. Just because God gave laws, does not mean he is trying to restrict men from breaking them. Sin is a law, that God put into reality, and put men into that reality, knowing full well that men would submit to that law of sin. Notice Gen.3:5;" For God KNOWS that in the day, (not the next day), in THAT day you eat from your environment, you will be influenced by what you ate"( Interpretation mine). God already knew before men sinned, that they would sin. And men wouldnot have sinned if it was not introduced into their environment. Belief in Universal Salvation is a belief that God will still give humanity Salvation, no matter what their effort to avoid sinning will produce. The effort to avoid Laws that God put into motion is admirable, but there is only so much one can do. Gravity is going to pull against anything on earth that defies it, no matter how strong that thing could be. So it is with Sin. There is no such thing as a " Sin Avoiding Artist." All are affected by sin, no matter what they believe in.

One will sin weather they believe in Universal Salvation or not. Its the results of sin that really is at the core of certain beliefs. Some believe sin will result in canceling out salvation, others do not see that happening. A belief in Universal Salvation is not a go ahead and Sin belief. Its an Understanding that the core responsibility for sin has to do with the one who was chosen to defeat sin. The one who created the environment of Sin, is the one who was responsible for giving his life to cover humanity's part in it. So while humanity is " Yet in their Sins", still sinning, the debt has been paid by Christ and we are covered. Even though we are all fatality's, all sinning, our insurance coverage is just that good. It may not seem fair to cover a sinner who is guilty, but that is what this true grace is about.

Now if humanity must pay for their own sins, then yes, each sin we committ, we need to cover it ourselves and be held responsible for them each and every time. And that is the core mentality of the  eternal hell doctrine, it is men paying for their sins, each and everyone of them a billion times over a trillion. And this belief requires humanity to suffer , even greater than Christ himself suffered. Because if eternal hell punishment is true, then there will exist a race of beings who's suffering will far surpass that of Jesus suffering. And if you are going to calculate mens sins and say its not fair and just for them to get away with it and be forgiven, how, in the name of reason, could one justify the eternal magnification of pain and never ending misery, and think that to be fair?

So which is more fair? Eternal forgiveness of all sin, or the required every moment continual repayment of each and every sin that men committ?

Peace.

Offline 97531

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 09:59:08 AM »
Brilliant answer Mickiel, the rest too, good answers.

Hey ES, looked at the site yesterday, too tired to come and assist you I need a break from debate for awhile.  This is a typical question and like Mickiel says, these guys work their salvation, they do not rest in God's grace.

Yes we avoid sin, yet we sin, the only difference between unsaved and us we try to avoid sin.

When one asks a question like this I question their morality anyhow, it is a dumb question but you need to answer in love.

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Offline Kratos

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 10:54:38 AM »
It seems that this question coming up so often says a lot about the condition of mankind today. The attitude is so often "What's in it for me"? It seems when I grew up, we were taught to be good and to do what was good just so we could be good. It was about having self-respect. Today, we are concerned that all kids have good self-esteem instead. Self-respect comes from an inner knowing of what is good and living up to that in your life. But, self-esteem says that you should feel good about yourself, even if you are a murderer or pedophile or rapist.

Why should I not sin if there is no hell is saying that I will only do what is good to gain a reward or to avoid a punishment. It matters little if I feel that I am a good person, it only matters if the payment for being good is worth what it takes to say No to sin.

Once a person is truly born-again, they are no longer looking for excuses to sin. They are looking for a way to be righteous and to please God without sin. Heaven or Hell should never factor into the equation when one knows the Lord. On the other hand, for a lost person who does not have the Lord in their lives, this may be the kind of question they would ask because they are selfish and self-seeking by nature.

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Offline hopeful

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2007, 02:12:26 PM »

Here is their exact quote:
"So what is the punishment for sin? What's to stop me from doing whatever I want? I wont go to hell. I'll eventually get to heaven. And if there's no hell and we all go to heaven then why should I try to further the Gospel? Why? There's no point. Everyone will get there sooner or later.

I'm just gonna party like it's 1984 man! Rock and roll!"

How do I answer this?



  I really wonder at statements like these...  Don't they love the Lord?  Were they actually happy in their sin?  Have they not felt drawn to the Father? Well, I would have to go back to the 70s for my partying and I'm telling you I was miserable then!  I now have someone and something to live for! 
You're welcome to visit http://toknowhimmore.blogspot.com/

arcticmonster2003

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2007, 03:08:35 PM »
Many UR believer also believe that people will be punished for sin, both on earth in the flesh and possible after death. The only main thing that sets UR apart from ET is that ET teaches that people will be punished for:

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years x forever!  :mshock: :Pray: :Chinscratch: :whistleshake: :drama: :drama: :teaching: :teaching: :eek: :director: :bdh: :spank: :Shoot: :hammerhead: :soap: :Gtantrum: :Gtantrum: :hysteric: :hysteric:
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 08:52:25 AM by SeekerSA »

Offline CHB

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2007, 05:52:25 PM »
Many UR believer also believe that people will be punished for sin, both on earth in the flesh and possible after death. The only main thing that sets UR apart from ET is that ET teaches that people will be punished for:

1000000000000000000000000000000000 years x forever!  :mshock: :Pray: :Chinscratch: :whistleshake: :drama: :drama: :teaching: :teaching: :eek: :director: :bdh: :spank: :Shoot: :hammerhead: :soap: :Gtantrum: :Gtantrum: :hysteric: :hysteric:

The wages of sin is death, period. We also reap what we sow on this earth as Craig said. I do not believe God will punish anyone with a literal fire. I might ask, "how much punishment does one need anyhow"? That is really not a question but a statement. :sigh:


How did this post get so wide, my goodness.  :mshock:

CHB
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 08:53:07 AM by SeekerSA »

Bart Burk

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2007, 06:13:28 PM »
I like the words of William Barclay in his essay "I Am a Convinced Universalist":

Quote
I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

Sin always carries a punishment.  Goodness has its own reward.  God's goal is to change us into His perfect image as found in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.  I believe there will be a purifying process of some sort to make that happen.  As I overcome sin with God's help, I'm acting in His ultimate will for me.

darsemnos

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2007, 06:15:15 AM »
Why should they accept Jesus as their Saviour?

Because He is. Why should you accept your grandfather is your grandfather? Because he is.

In other words what does a Universalist say to evangelize the lost?

There are people who have no hope, when you present that hope, they have hope again. Wouldn't you like to know that you are not what you have been told?

May I request clarification here? One thing you said caught my interest more than the rest. "Wouldn't you like to know that you are not what you have been told?"

What have we been told we are and what then are we?

Gabe Grinstead

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2007, 07:29:12 AM »
Why should they accept Jesus as their Saviour?

Because He is. Why should you accept your grandfather is your grandfather? Because he is.

In other words what does a Universalist say to evangelize the lost?

There are people who have no hope, when you present that hope, they have hope again. Wouldn't you like to know that you are not what you have been told?

May I request clarification here? One thing you said caught my interest more than the rest. "Wouldn't you like to know that you are not what you have been told?"

What have we been told we are and what then are we?

I believe Craig is saying that people are told they are despicable in God's eyes and that they must clean themselves before God will accept them.  They fail, and fail, because this task is impossible to do! Only God can do it! So, they give up believing they are hopeless and destined for an Eternal Hell at worst, and at best, the grave.  These people have no hope!  When you invite them to the house of God, that he accepts them for who they are, that he is not angry with them, but wishes to teach and train us like Children, then a spring of hope comes up.

I can personally declare that I was hopeless before I was willing to accept UR.  My way didn't work, so I might as well give it to God and give him a shot! If he fails, at least I have an excuse! Oh wait, I hear my ET brothers telling me that I am going to burn in hell for that thought! Darn! I was soooo close :P

On another note, this question was posed to me from a good friend who believes in Eternal Hell. When I responded much in the same way as WillieH, my friend decided to play the victim card and said that I was not his judge and that only God was... I flat out made it plane as day to him that the only thing that kept him from sitting and carousing was the fear of punishment and I told him right up front that he has no desire to serve God and this shows his intention.  Again, I was met with hostility...

In retrospect, I am not sure that is the correct way to deal with the situation.  Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and let God reveal to him how utterly immature and rebellious his statement/question was. In fact, I believe the correct way to deal with it is to leave it to God.  But, part of my loves to go in there and gut a self righteous person, but then I am reminded, how am I any better than I once was, if I simply resort to that sort of behavior?

And as for WillieH, nothing but love for you bro! You are very kind in the way you present everything, and perhaps others take it far better than my monotone, cross tone... As my brother said "Gabe, you always look angry or P---d off!" and I guess I never knew I displayed that type of demeanor, because that is not how I am... I think I am so direct that people take me very wrongly... Chalk that up to my personality, or perhaps my sin nature.  Take your pick :D
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 10:41:26 AM by SeekerSA »

Offline 97531

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2007, 11:16:05 AM »
Oh you have touched on a very key issue here.  THE VICTIM.

In this mindset, the VICTIM blames it all ol' red guy, he made me do it.

Yet we know as I responded in Gary's thread, the flesh remains with us even after the conversion/baptism/sanctification.

The VICTIM then feels the need to work/keep his/her salvation, trying to add-to what is 100% fulfilled in Christ.

But then the church creates the VICTIM in the first place and places the VICTIM under subjugation of the LAW and the laws of the church, viz bondage, religion, tradition.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

WHO THE SON SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED. geddit? :mshock:

So to apportion blame to the person is IMO not correct, ol' red guy just needs to influence the one we may not speak against, the pastor, the anointed.  Once he has the head sick, he has the whoooole body sick.

SOLUTION - GET A NEW HEAD

JESUS

Heb 4:15  For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

There is a scripture I am looking for about speaking out touching the anointed, can't find it now but the point is we are all anointed, just depends from whom that anointing comes eh?

Blessings
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Offline Taffy

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2007, 02:52:49 PM »
Oh you have touched on a very key issue here.  THE VICTIM.

In this mindset, the VICTIM blames it all ol' red guy, he made me do it.

Yet we know as I responded in Gary's thread, the flesh remains with us even after the conversion/baptism/sanctification.

The VICTIM then feels the need to work/keep his/her salvation, trying to add-to what is 100% fulfilled in Christ.

But then the church creates the VICTIM in the first place and places the VICTIM under subjugation of the LAW and the laws of the church, viz bondage, religion, tradition.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

WHO THE SON SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED. geddit? :mshock:

So to apportion blame to the person is IMO not correct, ol' red guy just needs to influence the one we may not speak against, the pastor, the anointed.  Once he has the head sick, he has the whoooole body sick.

SOLUTION - GET A NEW HEAD

JESUS

Heb 4:15  For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

There is a scripture I am looking for about speaking out touching the anointed, can't find it now but the point is we are all anointed, just depends from whom that anointing comes eh?

Blessings
Hi Seeker

Nicely worded :icon_flower:
and as Tigger would say.." a DOUBLE grrrrrrrrrrrr :thumbsup:

These scriptures came to my mind reading this:-

Mar 5:25  And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,


 Mar 5:26  And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,


 Mar 5:27  When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.


 Mar 5:28  For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.


 Mar 5:29  And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in [her] body that she was healed of that plague.


 Mar 5:30  And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?


 Mar 5:31  And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?


 Mar 5:32  And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.


 Mar 5:33  But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.


 Mar 5:34  And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague
Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline studier

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2007, 07:25:02 PM »
Lamentations 3:38-40
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That both good and ill go forth?
Why should any living mortal, or any man,
Offer complaint in view of his sins?
Let us examine and probe our ways,
And let us return to the LORD.

The devil can't make you do anything and the serpent was punished just like Adam and Eve. Each are rewarded and punished according to their own sins. No man shall offer complaint in view of his sins, each are responsible for their actions and deeds. It does not matter that we must contend with other influences.

-grammar fix-
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 08:10:35 PM by Craig »

Mickiel

  • Guest
Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2007, 10:21:47 PM »
Who is blaming or condemning other men for their sins?

That is the constant fallacy I keep seeing you addres Squint. We have all sinned, and it is not the sin that sins within us that also sins. You misunderstand Paul by this continual denial that you never sinned, but that it is sin within you sinning.

Paul said, if you desire to do good, and you do evil, then you know it is not you who sins but the sin that is within you. However, if you desire to do evil, and you do evil, that isn't the sin within you that sins, that is you.

Basically, every man is responsible and accountable for their own sins, but there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Through Jesus Christ, we may have sinned and have our sins, but we are nolonger dealt with according to our sins.

So basically in the end, we are all saying the same thing. Correct me if I am wrong. You deny your part in your sin, while Seeker and myself know we have sinned of our own accord. You believe you were unjustly subjected to a force you could not contend with and thankful that Jesus died for our behalf; we believe we were subjected to a force we could contend with through Jesus Christ and thankful that He died for our behalf. We all agree that our sins are not counted against us and we can walk by grace in Him who died for us.

2 Corinthians 5:9,10,14,15,18-20
So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.


Very well said Craig, very well.

I think this person has been influenced by a teaching I have seen before. It came from John of good news inc. They hold interesting views on sin and Satan, and have extended their belief further into that direction.

Its kind of like taking the truth, grabbing hold of sins responsibility, and completely bypassing humans involvement in it totally, almost as if Satan has done, what Jesus has done, taken our sins on his back, and because of Satan, we are not being judged.

Ones heart can go out to a teaching that looks to erase all of humanity's sins, but I would disagree with them being placed on any other shoulders than Christ.

Peace.

Kept

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Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 04:45:57 PM »
Very astute and well said Mickiel

Jesus Christ is our Savior! And the Savior of the World!

kept

Mickiel

  • Guest
Re: Why shouldn't I sin
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 05:14:06 PM »
Very astute and well said Mickiel

Jesus Christ is our Savior! And the Savior of the World!

kept


Well yes, that is my view of it. Although accustomed to running into doctrines and beliefs that look to blame man for sin, and thus accuse man and see the resulting accusation result in man paying for those sins, I can see the error in that mixture of understanding being rerouted in the wrong direction. Mainstream religion has a problem factoring in Christ sacrifice as a total coverage of all those sins, so they find ways of rerouting forgiveness, or the coverage, to only those sins repented of. So they confuse the mixture, they are right about the need for repentance, but wrong about the coverage of Christ, which superseeds repentance. So they factor in eternal hell torture as the remedy for non repentance, not seeing Christ as that remedy.

Now, what this belief about not accusing men of sins, but totally placing them on Satan is doing, is rerouting the sins all to him, and totally bypassing humanity, and placing the blame on Satan. The error in that mixture is still just as confusing. It does get to the root of who should be accused of sin, Satan, the source, but it is bypassing some important issues in its tital wave of movement. One, it was God who has locked all men into disobedience, not Satan. It was God who created Satan, he didnot create himself. It was God who intimated all this process of sin, and that is why God took the responsibility for it, and it is he who has shouldered the blame for it.

Satan cannot shoulder this responsibility, only God can. It cannot be rerouted to Satan, the responsibility must be Gods. God charged the responsibility to Christ and put it on his shoulders. Jesus alone must bear the cross, the responsibility, the burden of sin. Only Christ can remove the quilt of Sin, no on else can be blamed, nobodyelse can be the Savior. Jesus became sin for us, he bore the responsibility, it cannot be placed on Satan. And I think this belief is confusing those lines in , its effort to remove sin from men, it is placing far too much of that burden on Satan. And I know what Satan will do with that gesture, he's going to cause even more confusion, if you treat him, as if he has done something, that only Christ has done. Taken on the sin of humanity.

So it can get confusing. Satans role is to deceive and mislead, not to bear the sins of humanity.

Peace.