What is going on!?!?!

[xiaoknight]

ok! first of all, I want to thank tentmaker for bringing all of this subject up.  As of course most the folks in here, I was at one point or another in the traditional way of thinking about salvation and hell.  Now I do not fully embrasse the theology of universalism and neither do i fully embrase the traditional teachings of the church. 

At this very moment I am extremely confused because tentmaker proclaims that there is no such thing as Hell.  And has much evidence to proof the case, in which i said: "ohh ok, great, what's next?"  But then they post an audio conversation of the Stetson vs Strange Debate.  Which I believe tentmaker supports Mr. Stetson, which is fine, but Mr. Stetson explains and shows strong evidence of evangelism in Hell, and that Hell is a real place.

So my question is, what is going on?

My experiences so far have taken me to see demon possesed persons, both me and my family have encountered many occasions where we were faced with visual demonic presence, and no we were not on drugs or drunk or had bad pizza the night before, what i have experienced, i have experienced and there is not one person in this world that can convince me otherwise.

I am just trying to be honest and giving you my prespective on all of this, here are some questions that you may find interesting that i have come up with from both sides of the hall:

*  Why does the bible say: with out holiness no man shall see the Lord?

*  Where is satan and his demons?

*  Where are the fallen angels?

*  What about the scientists that found hell in the center of the earth? with sound and everything, they even said that they are still atheist but yet believe in hell?

*  What about the book "the divine revelation of hell"?

*  What about the belief that if you believe in heaven then you must also believe in hell?

*  What about the book "Talmud Immanuel: The Original Book of Matthew"?

*  What about "www.zeitgeistmovie.com"?

*  And last but not least, why doesn't God just wipe us all to Hell and save us all there?

Ok guys, those are some of the questions that are in my little head as i challenge my upbringing in the pentecostal system of belief.  I do very much believe in the messiah Jesus Christ, and that He is the saviour of all of mankind.  I believe that in order to meet God you must withstand His presence through His Son Jesus of Nazareth.  I also believe that the bible has so many miss interpretations and leads many to wrong believes for the simple mistake of translation errors found all over the bible specially the KJV.  I am also extremely afriad of falling into a certain parttern of belief for the very special reason that Christ warned of these new teaching at the end of the Age, false prophets and doctrines!  And as far as i can see universalism comes just in time to tell everyone that everybody is going to be just fine!

Thanks everyone!

*

[blackwings]

your anxiety is evident, let me tell you what ive come to believe:

as for you experiencing demon possessed people, i would direct you to 'the law of attraction', shortly put, it basically says that what you expect is what you get

as for where satan and his demons are, if you notice in the bible it never capitalizes satan, devil, or hell, indicating to me that its more of a metaphor than an noun-type person(s)

i believe hell may have once existed, but that jesus conquered it, and, all things will bow their knee to jesus, including fallen angels, demons, and, if he exists, satan himself

i will tell you that i firmly believe we create hell for ourselves and others, and that belief in such idolatrous pagan traditions create their reality in your life

simply put, stop making hell for yourself and others, and it will cease to exist

i hope this helps, at least a little bit

(btw, i didnt agree with much of what eric stetson had to say in that debate, but im sure his heart is in the right place)

[xiaoknight]

thank you very much for your time.

*Wow, I must beg to disagree with you.  With all do respect.  I am ignorantly assuming that you have never been faced with a demonic presence.  That is something that no believer should fear, neither should he or she ask for, but please, please oh please do not say that a demon is something i imagen to be true, because the day that you are faced with the reality that demons and satan are real, you will wish to believe that what you are saying is true.

*  So far from all the URs i have spoken to, not one have been able to give me a concrete answer toward those questions i have posted on the first post.  Neither can they come to a strong conclusion toward the existance of satan, demons, and fallen angels.  There is no way that I can take your answer as true doctrine, just because satan is not written Satan then its just a metaphor? no way man, wow, no way!

*Thanks again for your time.

[martincisneros]

Perhaps this webpage will help you with understanding, historically, much of the diversity of perspective among Universalists over the years. Click on the following link:

Different Views Among Universalists

[friarted]

I'm semi-hopeful Universalist, but I'll respond to these as if I were a full Unie!

*  Why does the bible say: with out holiness no man shall see the Lord?

Because without holiness, no one shall see the Lord. Christ is our Holiness. Only in Him can we be acceptable to God.

*  Where is satan and his demons?

I tend to believe there are real demonic entities, and that they seem to roam about Earth in the spirit realm.

*  Where are the fallen angels?

Tartarus- a Spirit-Prison.

*  What about the scientists that found hell in the center of the earth? with sound and everything, they even said that they are still atheist but yet believe in hell?

That was a hoax.

*  What about the book "the divine revelation of hell"?

The sincere deluded ramblings of a troubled woman. Even many ET'ers reject it as having any validity.


*  What about the belief that if you believe in heaven then you must also believe in hell?

It's wrong.

*  What about the book "Talmud Immanuel: The Original Book of Matthew"?

Another false Scripture, either of human or demonic origin.

*  What about "www.zeitgeistmovie.com"?

Is that the whole "Christian religion is just a holdover of Sun-worship" nonsense? See a site called tektonic.org by J.P. Holding for the answer to all that. (Btw, he's not a fan of UR, but he does have many helpful responses to other objections to Christian faith.)

*  And last but not least, why doesn't God just wipe us all to Hell and save us all there?

Uh, in a sense He will. We all will go into the Fire of the Love & Justice of God. Hopefully, we will be already covered by Lord Jesus & thus not be harmed. Those who are not then covered by Jesus will be assailed by that Fire till they entrust themselves to His Grace.

Just my two cents.

[martincisneros]

I too have seen demons/fallen angels during exorcisms.  That'll give you a whole new appreciation for dark ages art, eh?  I'm less critical of a lot of that art after some of the stuff that I've seen.  Basically, as the above link that I posted has indicated, there's two main views among Universalists:

1.  limited duration of future punishment
2.  absolutely no afterlife punishments whatsoever

For years I taught very strongly the view of limited duration of afterlife punishments, but I'm wandering over into absolutely no afterlife punishments these days.

As far as the KJV, there's 4 words that get mistranslated as "Hell."  One, in the Old Testament is "Sheol," and it just means the grave.  It's the direct equivalent of the word "Hades" in the New Testament Greek that sometimes gets mistranslated as "Hell."

Two other words that get mistranslated as "Hell" are "Gehenna," and "Tartarus."  I don't believe any longer that either Hades, or Gehenna, or Tartarus necessitate afterlife punishments, although some people would view "Gehenna" and the reference in Revelation 20:14 to a Lake of Fire as indicating afterlife punishments.

Jesus and James seemed to tie "Gehenna" with the consequences of false doctrine and abuses or abusiveness with the tongue and the ramifications of all of that as the wheel of nature gets turned against body and soul and those in your immediate circle of influence.

Tartarus, which is mentioned once in the New Testament in connection with the fallen angels and the nature of how they're bound for carnal sins in previous ages seems to be how we're punished for our works, and seems to be the equivalent of the Revelation 20:14 "Lake of Fire," the 1Corinthians 5 fire that burns up our unfit works, and the Matthew 25 parable of sheep and goats "fire," because it's the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

All of that stuff is here, and not in the afterlife.  We're judged for the abuses of our tongue here with it's effects upon our relationships, our finances, our bodies, our minds, the minds and hearts of others, etc.  The fact that it's sooo easy to see demons and fallen angels in the midst of exorcisms makes me believe that Tartarus is a sub-spiritual, sub-physical realm because the fallen angels are in chains related to the type of sin that they've committed in the past.

So again, Tartarus is the consequences and the resolution of our bad works, while Gehenna is the consequences and the self consuming resolution of our bad words and of the false doctrines that surround us everyday through false teachers, the media, unwholesome entertainment, etc.

I arrived at these conclusions through both the word studies and when those didn't satisfy me any longer then I started scrutinizing the Scriptures more closely on usage within the text and I started looking for synonyms/related concepts, etc.  I've got other posts on a bunch of the newer threads on these discussion boards where I've explored this in a little more detail, but not yet in as much detail as I hope to someday when I've had a chance to write a paper with each of the relevant Scripture references and showing their usage.

On the Gehenna thing, one passage that might throw you as you look into what I'm saying is to not fear those that can destroy the body, but their destructive work ends there, as in the case of terrorists, but to fear him that can destroy body and soul in Gehenna.  And a lot of the translations will capitalize the "him" as though it were a reference to God.  But Jesus immediately contrasted what He was talking about with the Father by pointing people back to God's goodness in contrast, as though He anticipated the misunderstanding of His words, but the translators never caught on about the point of clarification.  Jesus was talking about false teachers destroying your body and soul in Gehenna and not about your loving heavenly Father.

[xiaoknight]

Wow, now that is what i am talking about:  Exellent guys, thank you very much.  I am going to continue to look a little further and keep and digging more and more stuff.  One thing tho, how are you for certain that the whole hell at the center of the earth with the scientists and all was a hoax?  I dont know, but I would like to.  Thanks guys, please expect more questions from me.  One thing I will always agree on is, that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world and without him we are lost and without hope, without him there is no reason for anyone to keep on living, thanks everyone!!!

[martincisneros]

Wow, now that is what i am talking about:  Exellent guys, thank you very much.  I am going to continue to look a little further and keep and digging more and more stuff.  One thing tho, how are you for certain that the whole hell at the center of the earth with the scientists and all was a hoax?  I dont know, but I would like to.  Thanks guys, please expect more questions from me.  One thing I will always agree on is, that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world and without him we are lost and without hope, without him there is no reason for anyone to keep on living, thanks everyone!!!

As far as the Mary Baxter book "A Divine Revelation of Hell," I believe that there's a review of that book that Gary Amirault did.  I'm not sure where the link is, perhaps someone else will post it to this thread.  Otherwise, you can probably find it via the search engine on the main Tentmaker website, if the search box is still on the main home page.  He pointed out some issues with Mary's testimony, her discomfort with Jesus and pulling away from Him in her terror over what she was seeing, and he makes an anecdotal claim about her mental stability.

As far as the burning pit of Hell and the microphone that got put into a hole that they've dug, just remember that they've only recently perfected the drilling technique for the latest fad for making money with gas; the Barnet shell drilling (and I'm not sure if I got the spelling right).  So, it's doubtful to me that that 20+ year old story would be accurate.  If something happened, maybe they heard plate techtonics, gas exchange between levels being opened up by their drill, noises made by changing pressure down there, some magnetic phenomenon that distorted what they heard with the microphone, etc.  Plus all of the sound quality issues when you're dealing with longer microphone cords.  Feedback issues, etc.  That assuming that anything really happened that long ago along the lines of the type of drilling done with that old wives/husbands fable (i.e. FISH STORY!).

[xiaoknight]

Well, yes and no, i would say.  Because i am pretty sure that back then they could drill a hole right through the moon if they wanted to.  Our government has techonolgy that is not heard of, and there is also a strong case for government even cloning humans all the way back to the late 1970s.  So i think i am still going to look further into that claim.

[grace_explosion]

 

[grace_explosion]

 

[sparrow]

I was in church.  A person went forward for prayer.  The pastor cast a demon out in the name of Jesus.  By the spiritual gift of discernment, I believe, I literally saw the spirit entity come out of that person and walk down the church aisle and out the building.

I've seen demons... at church... being cast out of people.

I wonder if that happened to the people only because they believed it COULD happen....?

just thinking out loud here.

[martincisneros]

I wonder if that happened to the people only because they believed it COULD happen....?

just thinking out loud here.

Someone I cared about 3 years ago started manifesting on me the very day that they got baptized with the Holy Spirit.  I WASN'T expecting that at all.  They started screaming at me from the other room about having demons, and at first I tried to reassure them that they didn't have anything like that when I had to stand corrected midway through my statement.  I rebuked it in the name of Jesus and they galloped off to my hall closet on all 4s and tried to hide in there and suddenly it was ON.  Basically, I didn't get another night's sleep between juggling a job and an exorcism that lasted for 41 days.  And when I SAW this thing from the side of the Catholic candle coming out of them, I was not expecting that at all.  It looked like the jet black creature that's on the side of that Catholic candle where you have Michael coming down on the devil with all of his might.  I hadn't seen one of those candles in more than a decade, and suddenly I said through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit upon me that she was delivered, and as she bowed to praise the Lord this dark thing was separating from her -- that I kid you not, looked just like the gargoyle dude from the candle.

That was the FURTHEST THING from ANY of my expectations, and it wasn't from sleep deprivation, although it would be easy to say that.  The previous night I'd finally managed to get some sleep out of sheer exhaustion where I wandered off in the midst of everything to lie down on the bed for just a minute and I fell asleep for 12 hours.  So, when this happened at about 5pm that day following, I was WIDE AWAKE

[xiaoknight]

LeeLee and Martin and everyone else,
     Guys thank you so much for all your help, let me give you a little bit of what is going with me.  I am 25 years old, i accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour and messiah when i was 14 years old.  I have known about the word of God since and always known God wanted me to do something for His kingdom.  Ok today, I am one of the leaders, youth pastor, and hispanic leader of a local church.  Everything has been fine up to just about 2 months ago.  And litteraly all hell broke loose in my spiritual life.  I don't know why, I don't know what for.  I have always accepted the teachings of the traditional church as they have always been taught.  But you know how they say "curriosity killed the kat"?  Well there you go, I was currious about what people were posting on youtube about the anti-christ and things like that.  Anyways one thing lead to another, from one video to the other i began to see what was really going on in the world outside of the "cute Christian bubble" if you know what I mean, and oh my God!  It has been none stop since, so much so that right now i am in fear of my life!  I know that God loves me, and i love Him, I know he has forgiven me of my sins and that when i see Him again he will embrace me in his arms forever.  But when i see this world I see so much wickeness, evil, rappist, genocide, all this things that are allowed to progress, I ask myself, there most be payment for that, these pigs that are doing this things to humanity must receive retribution and judgement of God! they must, how else will they ever be served justice!  the governments wont do anything about it, if anything, they are part of it!

I had no idea that some of you guys are not a part of tentmaker or agree with what they say or minister.  I thought everyone here came from that doctrine, lolz sorry everyone.  I just automaticaly assumend that was the case.  It so wired that they really disagree on the existance of hell, yet they put the audio debate of stetson vs strange debate where stetson believes hell is real.  So it just threw me on a spin.

This is what i am in fear of right now:

* I am afraid to believe another doctrine and for it to be false and teach that false doctrine.

* I am afraid of folks that study a lot and search for a lot of evidence, but yet have never experienced healing in their bodies, marriages, emotions, and etc.  I have experienced the supernatural hand of God in more ways than one, one being the fact that God has saved my life more than 5 times where I knew there and then that the reason why i am still alive its because of Him, there was no other explanation to me or to the people that were around me at those times.

*  Yes is important to search for truth always, but i think everyone will agree here with me that a lot of times, in the kingdom of God things dont make sense.  Just because Gods ways are not ours, and ours is defentely not His, lolz. 

Guys, I really appreciate all your good intentions, I am so greatful, and its sad that i cant come to people i know in fear that they will reject me and cast me aside for questioning the traditional church.  I love God and I know he cries for those that dont know His ways of truth, of freedom, and peace, and love, and understanding.  I dont care if hell is not eternal, I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE IN HELL FOR 5 MINUTES, 2 MINUTES, 15 SECONDS!!!!  Neither my family, as atheist and arrogant as they may be, no one, not even my worst enemy would i ever want to see in hell.

Thank you so much, lots of love and blessings for everyone.

[blackwings]

2 things:

ive been a prime candidate for demon possession, i have a pentagram tattooed on my arm and cant stand traditional christians - I JUST DONT BELIEVE IT!

and 2:  original poster:  im assuming you are not a universalist, allow me to pose a few questions to you that universalism has answered for me:

1.  which of the worlds religions, would a 'just God', give bragging rights to?  (im not asking you which you believe in, im talking about the religions themselves, fruit and all, which one?)

2.  jesus' desciples said:  this teaching is impossible, who can follow this teaching?  how are we, 2000 years later, supposed to be able to live up to the holiness tradition?

3.  when jesus said 'it is finished' was he lying?  what more was there to do?

4.  the christian bible states 'no man comes to the lord except through me' ~ Jesus - that sounds like an exclusive statement that totally dismisses all the other world religions, take a guess how universalism answered that one for me - ?

thanks for your time

[xiaoknight]

1.  I would say islam.

2.  We are not supposed to live up to it, we all know its impossible, it's His blood that makes you righteouss.  But Jesus is the perfect example of how to be a man and live free of sin, yes it can be done only through Him.  Meaning that just because its impossible doesnt mean you just throw your hands in the air and say ahh forget it, what the heck.

3.  Perfect I agree.

4.  Oh you got me on that one, I don't know how did they answer that one for you?

=)

[martincisneros]

4.  the christian bible states 'no man comes to the lord except through me' ~ Jesus - that sounds like an exclusive statement that totally dismisses all the other world religions, take a guess how universalism answered that one for me - ?

Christianity is both totally exclusive and totally inclusive.

Totally exclusive in that there's no other way to God, but through Jesus Christ.  He won't allow any other way!

Totally inclusive in that Jesus Christ will acheive His perfect work in real history where every single individual is concerned, that has ever lived or will ever live.  Absolutely every person who has ever lived has their set date with Jesus Christ at which time they'll know the fullness of God's love and purpose for their lives, and God's purpose for all of Creation through Jesus Christ.  The times and seasons of these particulars are known only to our Father in the heaven of heavens.

[firstborn888]

I dont care if hell is not eternal, I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE IN HELL FOR 5 MINUTES, 2 MINUTES, 15 SECONDS!!!!  Neither my family, as atheist and arrogant as they may be, no one, not even my worst enemy would i ever want to see in hell.

Hi there,
  As Martin already explained above - probably a good place to start is to do a 'hell' word study. There is no Hebrew or Greek word used in scripture that is the equivalent of this English word, and that's where most of the confusion comes from. All old testament references to 'hell' are 'Sheol', AKA 'the grave'. All living go there when they die - the good, the bad and the ugly.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."(Eccles 9:5 King James Bible)

Psalms 115:17 says that "The dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do any going down into silence."  Those who have died therefore "know not anything" and have gone "into silence". The wages of sin is death, ie: "in the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."(Gen 3:19) Adam thus returned "to the ground", becoming "dust" (Gen 2:7)

At Psalms 146:3,4, it is written: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish."
How can the dead be tormented when they "know not anything" and his "thoughts have perished". How can "hell" be a place of torment when those who have died are silenced ?

The Hebrew word 'Sheol' and it's Greek equvilent Hades means the common grave of mankind, from which those there can receive a resurrection from the dead. Revelation 20:13,14, "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Greek hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." If "hell" were a place of fiery torment, then why was it thrown into a "lake of fire"?

Jesus did speak of the 'judgment of Gehenna" (translated in the KJV - damnation of 'hell'). Along with all the Greek mythology attached to the word Hades, this is where the concept of a fiery 'hell' came from. Interestingly, no apostle EVER speaks of Gehenna judgment, which is proof to me that it was a specific judgment, spoken only to the Jews, and is not some cosmic torture chamber for the 'lost'.

All these things are fairly easy to study out BUT you've obviously (like most Christians) been very influenced by the traditional view of 'hell' which is not found in scripture. Breaking away from that is not always easy.

As far as Mary Baxtor or Bill Wiese's "visions"? That stuff is total mythical nonsense. Bill gives a ton of scripture to try to back up his vision, but it's easy to see that they are totally out of context (I can give you examples if you wish).

The 'recording of hell' was proven to be a hoax long ago but fear is definitely still in style - and so the myth persists.

blessings,
 - Byron

[jabcat]

Jesus did speak of the 'judgment of Gehenna" (translated in the KJV - damnation of 'hell'). Along with all the Greek mythology attached to the word Hades, this is where the concept of a fiery 'hell' came from. Interestingly, no apostle EVER speaks of Gehenna judgment, which is proof to me that it was a specific judgment, spoken only to the Jews, and is not some cosmic torture chamber for the 'lost'.

 .  Context and translation.  Jesus said He came not (which I understand as His earthly ministry) except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  God's blessing, James.

[blackwings]

4.  the christian bible states 'no man comes to the lord except through me' ~ Jesus - that sounds like an exclusive statement that totally dismisses all the other world religions, take a guess how universalism answered that one for me - ?

Christianity is both totally exclusive and totally inclusive.

Totally exclusive in that there's no other way to God, but through Jesus Christ.  He won't allow any other way!

Totally inclusive in that Jesus Christ will acheive His perfect work in real history where every single individual is concerned, that has ever lived or will ever live.  Absolutely every person who has ever lived has their set date with Jesus Christ at which time they'll know the fullness of God's love and purpose for their lives, and God's purpose for all of Creation through Jesus Christ.  The times and seasons of these particulars are known only to our Father in the heaven of heavens.

pretty much - to sum it up, the line in the bible doesnt exclude anyone, it just says they go through jesus - it could just as easily mean ALL men as it does 'solely believers', i am more inclined to believe the former

[97531]

*  Why does the bible say: with out holiness no man shall see the Lord?

*  Where is satan and his demons?

*  Where are the fallen angels?

*  What about the scientists that found hell in the center of the earth? with sound and everything, they even said that they are still atheist but yet believe in hell?

*  What about the book "the divine revelation of hell"?

*  What about the belief that if you believe in heaven then you must also believe in hell?

*  What about the book "Talmud Immanuel: The Original Book of Matthew"?

*  What about "www.zeitgeistmovie.com"?

*  And last but not least, why doesn't God just wipe us all to Hell and save us all there?

As promised I said I will answer your questions.  Firstly I am one that does not believe in an afterlife punishment whatsoever - the reason for that is that the LoF and Gehenna, sheol, hades tartarus are not the same place as the RCC chose to group them and also include a purgatory doctrine.  I will expound on why as I answer.

You ask where is satan and his demons followed by the fallen angels.  This presupposes that satan was Lucifer which is a myth and secondly the third of the stars drawn from heaven in revelation - a symbolic book and from a preterist standpoint already fulfilled and all these mths have fuzzy links to Isaiah and Ezekiel.

One of the problems I have that satan being a being/spirit/entity, how does he get to visit folk to the nanosecond, 6.7Bn folk to delude and influence them negatively?  Well they all say he uses the angels that were cast out with him yada yada.

Let us look at the weakness of the presupposition of the fallen angels.

If the angels rebelled against God as is traditionally taught, what prevents the other 2 thirds from rebelling in the future?  It sure make God seem like He is not Omniscient, being caught off guard or creating like with humans, a defective product that has the ability to challenge Him and even win? (sorry I ask more questions in my answers)

You have assumed that satan is a being and assumed that there was this literal war in heaven and a third of the angels were cast out, chronicled in a book that essentially talks of something shortly come to pass in a vision.

There are deeper roots wrt the nephilim but I am not at liberty to discuss that here, but fallen angles are not celestial beings.

You mentioned that you have experienced demons - maybe not personally - and maybe that is where you assume that UR believers do not believe they exist - well that is kinda dumb as Jesus sure did a lot of casting out Himself.  Where there is disagreement is the origins of demonic forces - I tend to think along the lines that we create them and give life to them but not having once witnessed a deliverance in RL, only in videos, I cannot make a definitive assessment, I do however believe they exist.  What I do know is that they are NOT fallen angels as if they were, then for every "demon" hiding behind a bush, there would still be 2 angels to hold them at bay in the traditional teaching/thought.

I believe that the church gives to much credence to satan and demons hence if one's focus is on the Father, even if you have problems, He sure can deliver you w/o the need of exorcism?  Jesus just said to them go, no praying in tongues and getting all Spiritually hyped up.  Before you say "yes but He was God in the flesh.." His disciples, 70 also cast out demons and while He, Jesus was still alive.

The remainder of your questions are all based upon traditional teachings which you may or may not have embraced and if you then assume a vision of hell via an NDE to be truth then what I say probably will not convince you anyway.  I always say, we can but share an opinion as it has been revealed to us, other than that, once the Father has shown you the hypocrisy of the lies of religion, you will far easier be able to accept that than to accept what I or anyone else says.

You also mentioned that you are afraid to exchange your current beliefs for new ones in case you get deceived - well - if all you have is beliefs based upon traditions and religious teachings - that is all you have.  Luckily for me when I got "saved" I went to the Source and not to man or other books.  I did try one set of books but ended up with more unanswered questions.  I found the answers in the Love of the Father and diligent study.

To be honest, I am more skeptical of satan and demons being defective results of God's creation than believing in the salvation of ALL mankind - I also find it hard to equate the unconditional Love of the Father with a literal hell, temporary or permanent.  Seems that the church holds man to higher standards than God Himself.  I am also not of the opinion that Jesus was an atonement for sin or the ultimate sacrifice as that makes God conditional and thus assumes that the pre-Jesus folk were all lost anyway and that Grace was a new concept God came up with with the advent of Jesus.  I do believe that Grace always existed for all nations, the Hebrews kinda messed up big time in creating a god of vengeance and wrath but other cultures too had their blood thirsty deities.

What I share is too deep to enter into discussion here but hopefully I have given you some things to contemplate.

You last question is rhetorical.  We all do go to hell and are saved from there.  It is called hades/sheol aka the grave - our final destination in this lifetime (sorry no rapture either)

To fully answer these questions will take a month or two as the questions themselves raise many "yes but.." questions.  Unravelling the myths of traditions is what I focus on and believe me, it is a cesspool.  You are not going to find pat answers to your questions here as group think is not a requirement of belief in UR - that is the problem with many folk as they want to exchange their god-in-a-box for another.  There is no box in UR, the Father is TOO BIG to contain even in the bible let alone a creed of sorts.

You have much to learn and unlearn - I suggest contacting the Source - the Father.

Blessings

[willieH]

*  Why does the bible say: with out holiness no man shall see the Lord?

*  Where is satan and his demons?

*  Where are the fallen angels?

*  What about the scientists that found hell in the center of the earth? with sound and everything, they even said that they are still atheist but yet believe in hell?

*  What about the book "the divine revelation of hell"?

*  What about the belief that if you believe in heaven then you must also believe in hell?

*  What about the book "Talmud Immanuel: The Original Book of Matthew"?

*  What about "www.zeitgeistmovie.com"?

*  And last but not least, why doesn't God just wipe us all to Hell and save us all there?

As promised I said I will answer your questions.  Firstly I am one that does not believe in an afterlife punishment whatsoever - the reason for that is that the LoF and Gehenna, sheol, hades tartarus are not the same place as the RCC chose to group them and also include a purgatory doctrine.  I will expound on why as I answer.

You ask where is satan and his demons followed by the fallen angels.  This presupposes that satan was Lucifer which is a myth and secondly the third of the stars drawn from heaven in revelation - a symbolic book and from a preterist standpoint already fulfilled and all these mths have fuzzy links to Isaiah and Ezekiel.

One of the problems I have that satan being a being/spirit/entity, how does he get to visit folk to the nanosecond, 6.7Bn folk to delude and influence them negatively?  Well they all say he uses the angels that were cast out with him yada yada.

Let us look at the weakness of the presupposition of the fallen angels.

If the angels rebelled against God as is traditionally taught, what prevents the other 2 thirds from rebelling in the future?  It sure make God seem like He is not Omniscient, being caught off guard or creating like with humans, a defective product that has the ability to challenge Him and even win? (sorry I ask more questions in my answers)

You have assumed that satan is a being and assumed that there was this literal war in heaven and a third of the angels were cast out, chronicled in a book that essentially talks of something shortly come to pass in a vision.

There are deeper roots wrt the nephilim but I am not at liberty to discuss that here, but fallen angles are not celestial beings.

You mentioned that you have experienced demons - maybe not personally - and maybe that is where you assume that UR believers do not believe they exist - well that is kinda dumb as Jesus sure did a lot of casting out Himself.  Where there is disagreement is the origins of demonic forces - I tend to think along the lines that we create them and give life to them but not having once witnessed a deliverance in RL, only in videos, I cannot make a definitive assessment, I do however believe they exist.  What I do know is that they are NOT fallen angels as if they were, then for every "demon" hiding behind a bush, there would still be 2 angels to hold them at bay in the traditional teaching/thought.

I believe that the church gives to much credence to satan and demons hence if one's focus is on the Father, even if you have problems, He sure can deliver you w/o the need of exorcism?  Jesus just said to them go, no praying in tongues and getting all Spiritually hyped up.  Before you say "yes but He was God in the flesh.." His disciples, 70 also cast out demons and while He, Jesus was still alive.

The remainder of your questions are all based upon traditional teachings which you may or may not have embraced and if you then assume a vision of hell via an NDE to be truth then what I say probably will not convince you anyway.  I always say, we can but share an opinion as it has been revealed to us, other than that, once the Father has shown you the hypocrisy of the lies of religion, you will far easier be able to accept that than to accept what I or anyone else says.

You also mentioned that you are afraid to exchange your current beliefs for new ones in case you get deceived - well - if all you have is beliefs based upon traditions and religious teachings - that is all you have.  Luckily for me when I got "saved" I went to the Source and not to man or other books.  I did try one set of books but ended up with more unanswered questions.  I found the answers in the Love of the Father and diligent study.

To be honest, I am more skeptical of satan and demons being defective results of God's creation than believing in the salvation of ALL mankind - I also find it hard to equate the unconditional Love of the Father with a literal hell, temporary or permanent.  Seems that the church holds man to higher standards than God Himself.  I am also not of the opinion that Jesus was an atonement for sin or the ultimate sacrifice as that makes God conditional and thus assumes that the pre-Jesus folk were all lost anyway and that Grace was a new concept God came up with with the advent of Jesus.  I do believe that Grace always existed for all nations, the Hebrews kinda messed up big time in creating a god of vengeance and wrath but other cultures too had their blood thirsty deities.

What I share is too deep to enter into discussion here but hopefully I have given you some things to contemplate.

You last question is rhetorical.  We all do go to hell and are saved from there.  It is called hades/sheol aka the grave - our final destination in this lifetime (sorry no rapture either)

To fully answer these questions will take a month or two as the questions themselves raise many "yes but.." questions.  Unravelling the myths of traditions is what I focus on and believe me, it is a cesspool.  You are not going to find at answers to your questions here as group think is not a requirement of belief in UR - that is the problem with many folk as they want to exchange their god-in-a-box for another.  There is no box in UR, the Father is TOO BIG to contain even in the bible let alone a creed of sorts.

You have much to learn and unlearn - I suggest contacting the Source - the Father.

Blessings

   good post Bernie... 

peACe   

In  JESUS  ...name above all names...  ...willieH   

[martincisneros]

New Testament exorcisms are a messy business.  They create sooo many questions.  The acceptable answer is more of a quotation from Milton's "Paradise Lost" than any kind of Scripture.  The sole Scripture that I've ever seen anyone tie the fall of a third of the angels to is Revelation chapter 12.  Whether the book of Revelation must be understood as having predicted events that happened by 70AD or whether one takes the futurist approach, you still have Revelation 12 being after Revelation 11 and not at the beginning of time, and in Revelation 11 we have the two witnesses in Jerusalem, which I guess some would take as the witness of the Gospel to the Jews and the witness of the Gospel to the Gentiles, while others would think Moses and Elijah or Enoch and Elijah, and other theories.  Whatever interpretation wins at the end of the day, the only way that you can say that Revelation 12 is about the fall of a third of the angels is to say that such a significant event either happened in that generation that Jesus never clearly forewarned about, or that something soooo significant is coming in the future that no other Scripture describes with clearer details.  It's the only passage that that's based upon, unless you take Milton's "Paradise Lost" as Scripture.

Like SeekerSA said "TRADITIONS!!!"  Something almost felt wrong about challenging that traditional view with my previous paragraph, but I can't find anything about a third of the angels falling.  It would be more believable to take the old Rabbinic tradition on Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 that the devil is able to replicate himself at will in order to have additional "demons" or whatever.  How would soooo many angels be deceived all at once and be stimulated to desire for whatever was the basis of such a fall?

Book of Enoch which is rejected by both Catholics and Protestants as being a part of the canon of Scripture goes into all of this about all kinds of fallen angels, what their crimes were, how Enoch received power from the Lord to bind them for 70 generations, etc.  But you can't find that kind of epic in the Bible.

Either we adopt the book of Enoch and Paradise Lost as Scripture, or we have to say that the fall of a third of the angels is suspect.  Now, such a cataclysmic war in the future that a third of the man-made sattellites are thrown to the earth and embitter the waters, kill the fish, and produce a famine beyond even the one going on right now -- while very bleak, is still more plausible than the idea that a third of what Hebrews calls innumerable suddenly fell either in the first century or in the near future.  It's just enormously difficult [for me personally] to square such an interpretation with the proto-interpretation of Revelation that I've given on the book of Revelation board over the course of two or three (4??) entirely different threads, 'cause famine and all of this other stuff going on right now is the third and fourth seal, while Revelation 12 is around the time period of the 7th seal, if I remember right off the top of my head without a Bible in front of me.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi X...

Please KNOW that I address YOUR WORDS, and mean no personal offense to YOU... (that is, if you take offense at "my words"  )

ok! first of all, I want to thank tentmaker for bringing all of this subject up.  As of course most the folks in here, I was at one point or another in the traditional way of thinking about salvation and hell.  Now I do not fully embrace the theology of universalism and neither do i fully embrace the traditional teachings of the church.

So what do you "fully embrace" there X?  

At this very moment I am extremely confused because tentmaker proclaims that there is no such thing as Hell.  And has much evidence to proof the case, in which i said: "ohh ok, great, what's next?"  But then they post an audio conversation of the Stetson vs Strange Debate.  Which I believe tentmaker supports Mr. Stetson, which is fine, but Mr. Stetson explains and shows strong evidence of evangelism in Hell, and that Hell is a real place.

Don't know "Stetson"... nor do I personally believe that TENTMAKER aligns with this thinking... on the contrary... Gary Armiault (site owner) has written many articles quite to the contrary!

So my question is, what is going on?

Well, let's see if we can help there X... 

My experiences so far have taken me to see demon possesed persons, both me and my family have encountered many occasions where we were faced with visual demonic presence, and no we were not on drugs or drunk or had bad pizza the night before, what i have experienced, i have experienced and there is not one person in this world that can convince me otherwise.

First, might I state that it is NOT my agenda to "convince you" of anything!

That you "believe" you saw SPIRIT beings (which by the way, ARE INVISIBLE)... is the beginning of the deception you submitted to... Many in Christianity submit to it... and thereby get their wish... to "see" with PHYSICAL EYES... SPIRITUAL BEINGS...

I been there done that on all that kind of garbage... and you are welcome to believe that you "SAW" ...INVISIBLE SPIRIT BEINGS... if you wish, that is your right... and though I find this manifestation of the FLESH... I hold no judgment against those who believe it to be of the SPIRIT...

ATHEISTS believe there is NO "God"... that is their right... however, because they believe this, CERTAINLY does NOT, establish "atheism" as TRUE! 

I am just trying to be honest and giving you my prespective on all of this, here are some questions that you may find interesting that i have come up with from both sides of the hall:

*  Why does the bible say: with out holiness no man shall see the Lord?

The JUDGEMENT of FIRE, removes ALL unholiness in men... (1 Cor 3:11-15 / Mark 9:49) and ALL MEN must experience that JUDGMENT...

*  Where is satan and his demons?

In your mind X...

satan is NOT a "being"... it is the principality of adversity... which brings with it, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... by trancending or disobeying, the command(s) of YHVH God...

satan is NOT a NAME... it is a Hebrew word which means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... look it up X... It is found in Strongs Ex Concordance in the Hebrew dictionary #7854

satan is the principality or power of adversity (disobedience to holiness) which was created in MAN... that he might DISOBEY the command of GOD, which opened the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL to him...

CHRIST Himself addressed the Apostle PETER as "satan"... do you think PETER was actually "satan" X? (Matt 16:23 / Luke 4:8 / Mk 8:33) 

Or is it that CHRIST addressed the words of PETER, which were found to be ADVERSE to the mission He was sent to accomplish?

*  Where are the fallen angels?

There are no such things... Fallen angels is a MYTH concocted by Christian Theology... The idea in itself is foolish... for if there are "fallen angels"... then GOD is NOT ALMIGHTY, rather is found to be a "tinkering" creator, just not quite getting it right. 

Furthermore... as another noted... if 1/3 of the angels "fell"... what is to keep the other 2/3's from eventually succumbing to this ANGELIC, character flaw? 

The truth is that the ALL the HOLY ANGELS of GOD, are ETERNAL and HOLY... NONE have FALLEN from Heaven, as Christianity falsely supposes...

*  What about the scientists that found hell in the center of the earth? with sound and everything, they even said that they are still atheist but yet believe in hell?

  ...scientists who DO NOT BELIEVE in the SPIRITUAL, have found "HELL"... a (supposed) SPIRITUAL place... come on... don't you know when your leg is getting pulled X? 

What scientist has been there and is an "eye witness" X?  Do you just swallow this garbage without questioning it? 

They found a SPIRITUAL "place" called "HELL" in the midst of a PHYSICAL entity called EARTH?

Do you not see through this ridiculousness? 

*  What about the book "the divine revelation of hell"?

Don't know of such a book, and it is HARDLY a "Divine revelation"... whoever has the audacity to name such a thing "Divine" is welcome to show me and prove it with the WORD of GOD... otherwise... it is HARDLY "Divinely" revealed...

*  What about the belief that if you believe in heaven then you must also believe in hell?

On what is this DUMB equation based?  You base the very existence of HEAVEN on the existence of HELL... as if it cannot EXIST without it... 

*  What about the book "Talmud Immanuel: The Original Book of Matthew"?

Sorry, I missed my copy... can you tell me where to buy one?  And if this book exists, WHAT of its teachings, do you object to? 

*  What about "www.zeitgeistmovie.com"?

Zeitgeist?  What the "HELL" is that? 

*  And last but not least, why doesn't God just wipe us all to Hell and save us all there?

Now there's a grand idea!    Why doesn't GOD just "wipe us all to HELL?

I can give you ONE good reason X... Areya ready? ...because HE LOVES US...  Go JESUS, go JESUS ...oh yeah, oh yeah,    Go JESUS, Go JESUS,  ...oh yeah! 

Ok guys, those are some of the questions that are in my little head as i challenge my upbringing in the pentecostal system of belief.  I do very much believe in the messiah Jesus Christ, and that He is the saviour of all of mankind.  I believe that in order to meet God you must withstand His presence through His Son Jesus of Nazareth.  I also believe that the bible has so many miss interpretations and leads many to wrong believes for the simple mistake of translation errors found all over the bible specially the KJV.  I am also extremely afriad of falling into a certain parttern of belief for the very special reason that Christ warned of these new teaching at the end of the Age, false prophets and doctrines!  And as far as i can see universalism comes just in time to tell everyone that everybody is going to be just fine!

Thanks everyone!

Okay X... here's the deal... 

First, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, ...willieH loves you, you are a child of the MOST HIGH, and I always endeavor to look upon ALL His Children with HIS EYES and HIS HEART.

Second, ...If you wish to find TRUTH, dont be so ready to accept what "Scientists" say... and what "movies" state... and what self-titled books might claim (being a "Divine revelation")...

Third, ...Put your nose into the WORD... PRAY without CEASING... dig, and dig and when you're done, ...dig some more... and THEN... you shall be an open vessel into which GOD might pour massive amounts of TRUTH... which are INSPIRED, ...not in the PHYSICAL realm (HELL in the middle of the Earth)... rather... are UNVEILED within the HEART... WHICH is an entity of INFINITE CAPACITY...


peACe   

In  JESUS  ...name above all names...  ...willieH   

[jabcat]

Good post WilliH, but you do know you are a mess, don't you?  (a good mess). . 

P.S., it would be really entertaining to see what you'd do with some more emoticons.  X, listen to Willi's message...he really is trying to help you...really.  And there's a lot of wisdom behind all those flashing lights  .