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Offline Peacetroll

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What is a Man???
« on: September 12, 2007, 05:25:29 PM »
I would like to give you all an explanation, or an epiphany that came to me a few years back (Thank you Philladelphian for your taking the time to talk to me, even when I was in the dark and contrite).  I believe this is one of the most crucial things to understand if we are to carry on in knowledge concerning the truth.

For many years, I simply understood a 'man' to be people in general.  I never understood that men or man can be used in one of two context's in scripture, here are the two context's I understand that 'man' or 'men' fall under:

1). To mean mankind in general (simply the flesh and blood, not concerning the spiritual).

2). The spiritual man, those with MAN (GOD), indwelling, evident by their fruits.  The use of 'Man' in the spiritual sense includes only those with LOVE in their hearts.

Once one begins to understand the two uses of the word 'man' in scripture, a sort of awakening may occur.

Now lets take a look at some scripture that is greatly misunderstood (and even contradictory if we do not understand the spiritual definition of man), but greatly clarified once a person has a solid grasp on the spiritual definition of 'Man'.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Ah, if we take 'men' to simply mean the flesh and blood and bones person, then we can misunderstand this to mean every human-animal ever born.

Again,

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Again, if we do not understand the spiritual definition of 'man' we again miss the deeper meaning of Paul's statement in Timothy 2:4.  When we do not understand the spiritual definition of 'man', we read much of Pauls writtings, and with this misunderstanding allot of his writtings become contradictory.  BUT if we understand the true definition of 'Man' in the spiritual sense, then Pauls writtings greatly clarify and do not contradict.

Who is a MAN (spiritually speaking)????

John 17:
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

 26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


So what did Jesus call himself? (thus revealing the true name of God)!!!

Matthew 16:13
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

You see?!  Jesus was the son of MAN!!!

I get so excited just talking about this, I can't express my joy to God for revealing this to me, a chief sinner!!!

Mark 3
32And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
 33And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?  
34And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
 35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


You see, if you have love in your heart (evident in your fruits), you are in the family of Jesus, or a son of Man, or a MAN!!!!!


Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

To be a man (spiritually speaking), you must have God indwelling!  Thus you become a brother to the Son of Man, a child of MAN, thus....a MAN!!!

Once you understand this, so many things in scripture will become clearer!!!

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Now you can read Paul and understand more clearly!

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

I hope you will consider what I am presenting to you.   IT is a pearl of wisdom.  Many scriptures that may be confusing or contradictory in nature to a UR will become crystal clear once you have come to grips with God's true definition of a 'Man'!!!

Peace in Christ Jesus, the Son of MAN!!!!!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 05:31:36 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

laren

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 09:13:56 PM »
And I've never met a human being that did not have love in their heart.  Often buried beneath shame, guilt, self hate etc.

but imo

Love is in the heart of all humans. 


Offline Peacetroll

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 10:53:34 PM »
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance.

I believe love of riches make it hard to do such things, being to love others before material gain.

All those I know too have exhibited love at one time or another.  And if they have not, perhaps it is simply not their time. I for one must believe the Golden Truth always, which is Christ Jesus:

Mark 8:24
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

Trees are men in the following metaphor by Christ...

Matthew 7:   
19Every tree (flesh and blood men) that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
.


And what is the Father's will?

John 6:
 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


And again,

John 20:
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


I'll end my discussion of what a true 'Man' is, it has nothing to do with testicals, and everything to do with faith in Christ (Who is Love).

Peace.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 11:03:16 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

laren

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 11:09:19 PM »
here is a post that might be interesting regarding "tree known by their fruit", written by a friend of mine, Amie that posts here at tentmaker occasionally.  She is Ok with me posting this (as it was posted on another forum). 



fruits 'n trees

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by the fruit.

Some trees for consideration (watch for the transition):

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed leaves of the fig tree, and made girdles for themselves.

1Ki 4:25 And Judah and Israel lived securely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree; from Dan even to Beer-sheba all the days of Solomon.

2Ki 18:31 Do not listen to Hezekiah, for so says the king of Assyria, Make with me a peace treaty and come out to me; and you each shall eat of his vine, and each of his fig tree, and you each shall drink of the waters of his own well,

Son 2:13 The fig tree spices her unripe figs, and the vines give a fragrance by the blossom. Arise, My love; come, My beautiful one, and come yourself.

Isa 34:4 And all the host of the heavens shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together like a scroll. Then all their host shall droop, as a leaf drooping from the vine, and as the drooping from a fig tree.

Jer 8:13 I will utterly consume them, says Jehovah. No grapes will be on the vine, or figs on the fig tree; even the leaf withers. And I will give to them those who pass over them.

Hos 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness. I saw your fathers as the firstfruit in the fig tree at her first time. They came to Baal-peor and set themselves apart to a shameful thing. And they became hateful like that which they loved.

Jer 11:16 Jehovah called your name, a green olive tree, fair, with fine fruit. With the sound of a great roaring, He has set fire to it, and its branches are worthless.

Hag 2:19 Is the seed still in the barn? Yes, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree have not brought forth. From this day I will bless them.

Deu 24:20 When you beat your olive tree, you shall not search the branch behind you. It shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.

Isa 24:13 For it is thus in the midst of the land, among the peoples, it shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as gleanings when the grape harvest is completed.


Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him and said concerning him, Behold, truly an Israelite in whom is no guile!
Joh 1:48 Nathanael said to Him, From where do You know me? Jesus answered and said to him, Before Philip called, you being under the fig tree, I saw you.
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered and said to him, Because I said to you I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these.

Mat 21:19 And seeing one fig tree by the road, He went up to it, and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, Let there be no more fruit from you forever. And the fig tree immediately dried up.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree,

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and against nature were grafted into a good olive tree, how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive tree?

So there was someone called to be an olive tree, that instead, lured by the fruit of the fig, became after the likeness of the fig tree.

"Ayil" is hebrew the word represents the function of strong leader. I'll bold below the words translated from "ayil":

Psa 29:9

"The voice of Jehovah causes the does to calve" (Green's Literal)

"The voice of the LORD makes the deer to calve" (KJV)

"The voice of the LORD twists the oaks" (NIV)

Consider the understanding of "the oak", and this:

Gen 32:28 And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed.

And revisit:

Jer 11:16 Jehovah called your name, a green olive tree, fair, with fine fruit. With the sound of a great roaring, He has set fire to it, and its branches are worthless.

I'm not suggesting that only Israel made up the trees. The trees preexisted Israel. Israel was called to own the name of one of the two trees.

If you read Jeremiah 11, you'll find yourself back in the day of the old covenant - where God said if Israel would keep the law, they would be priests and kings and a special people to him (Exodus 19:5, 6). The house of Judah and Israel were found having broken the covenant. They were set to act as olive trees, yet because of their covenant breaking God set the tree ablaze.

Now, the elements within that world were jews (chosen people of God), gentiles (outcasts, lawless, unclean people), the temple (they believed to be the means to commune with God), human priests (failed mediators), human kings (lacking shared authority with God), death, sin, etc.

Keep the above in mind while reading:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth now, having been stored up by the same Word, are being kept for fire to a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with rushing sound, and having burned the elements will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be burned up.

One tree would actually be burned up by the other, burning bush --

Mat 7:19 Every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire.

The fig produced zero fruit, yet people still tilled and worked for the fruit that they desired to have from it.

Luk 6:43 For there is not a good tree that produces bad fruit, nor a bad tree that produces good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For each tree is known from its own fruit. For they do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.
Luk 6:45 The good man brings forth good out of the good treasure of his heart. And the evil man brings forth evil out of the evil treasure of his heart, for his mouth speaks out of the abundance of his heart.

Yes, above we have an example of the trees representing a man. Biblically, I we also have a description of these two men:

1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Co 15:45 So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7

Everything then becomes a bit intertwined. There is no fruit (technically) coming forth from a "bad" man. According to the story back in the garden, Adam determines himself bad and bases that determination on God's commandment. Yet, he doesn't question this conclusion that he has made about himself.

What we find instead is an utter disconnect from love. He (including Eve btw) doesn't love himself (evidenced by shame) nor does he believe in God's uncondional love (evidenced by fear). Rather than to cover himself in the knowledge of love, he chose the fig tree (the knowledge of good and evil).

The law itself was put in place to aid this problem, yet it was only a temporary aid, and it was an imperfect aid (due to the weakness of flesh). So, while Adam/Eve received the temporary covering of animal skin, they never took off the fig leaves. Those leaves were burned away, again, by the other tree.

You might see that olive oil was the oil used to keep the lamps in the temple burning. It was used to annoint the kings chosen by God. It is represented in the "seven churches" of Revelation. It is the tree of life.

Only the tree of life brought forth good fruit. And we can know what "good man" that represented. Firstly when Jesus was in the flesh, he said:

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God! But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments.

However, he would return in the spirit. He died the last of adam, and was risen the first good man. The firstfruits entered into his body, which in Romans 11 is symbolized by those believing him being grafted in to the olive tree, whether naturally (Israelite) or foreign (Gentile).

The effects of such a resurrection meant no less than the reconciliation of God and humanity. The "good tree" and the "bad tree" could know one another by their fruit. What is the nothing from the fig tree if not death which is none other than disconnection from God?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you beforehand, as I also said before, that the ones practicing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

God is present with everyone today. Before such a thing is realized, don't people possess the sufferings listed above? Those disconnected with God, and therefore love, were unable to fulfill the law and so could not and would not inherit the Kingdom. The Kingdom was inherited, though those who are unable to connect with God are unable to experience the blessings thereof. It truly is as if they were still dead - just because they believe it to be true. God demonstrated through Jesus that it is not true! God does love unconditionally! Though religion might steal what Jesus did for themselves and claim otherwise, where is the plague of boils proving the preacher right?! You won't find it.

That is because reality has changed. What will the fruit of such a change look like?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law.

If you believe that everything has been fulfilled, then you can know that the fig tree has been hewn down and cast into the fire. The "old man" who is "bad" and brings forth death has passed away.

Here's the amazing thing imo.. The tree of life is eternal.

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, coming forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.

Israel was once clothed in animal skins over fig leaves. The skins passed away, and the fig leaves burned away. Surely those who did not clothe themselves with white robes ("washed in the blood of the lamb") were found naked and in their fear and shame. There are many who feel such shame and fear today. Did you notice above though? God has given a new covering.. olive leaves.

(Deu 24:20 When you beat your olive tree, you shall not search the branch behind you. It shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.)

So, the "good man" vs the "bad man" isn't individual at all. It cannot be because we can't do ourselves into being good. The work of God is bringing forth good fruit, whereas the work of man did not.

Thoughts?

Amie





Offline Peacetroll

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 01:39:01 PM »
Amie,

After reading the article you posted, I personally believe it's very convoluted, with some scripture not necessarily relevant with the next, and the whole not particularly relevant to the original post,...  But this is my own view (no offence intended).

I pose a question to you,...
The flesh, blood and bones are but vessels for what?

I believe the body (temple), is a vessel for the spirit.

And from the heart (spirit), a person either brings good things or bad.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Now I certainly realize no one is truly good except Jesus Christ.  But because we have faith in him, his righteousness is accounted as ours, therefore we are deemed accepted to the Lord.  Those with no Faith in Jesus have not cloaked themselves with his righteousness, therefore are not acceptable to the Lord.  Thus the righteous and the wicked are defined by faith, not by works.  Knowing we are accounted acceptable because of the gift of Faith, we should strive forward to do the things the Lord requires, love one another, forgiving one another; bearing fruits unto repentance.

Luke 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

It appears to me that Jesus was indirectly informing them (the apostles),  that mankind (persons of flesh and blood; I.E.  vessels), can be filled with either the spirit of God/Light or that of Error/Darkness.  And he was reminding them that they came from the Light.

Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore  the light (spirit/heart) that be in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Again, John reaffirms this conclusion of mine:

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth (LIGHT), and the spirit of error(Darkness).

May Jesus Christ bless you in all truth and understanding.

Peace.
________________________________________________

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 02:34:08 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

laren

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 04:00:36 PM »
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.



Offline Peacetroll

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 05:28:30 PM »
 I speak because I believe.

So that they (those in unbelief), might obtain the mercy of God and his gift of eternal salvation.

Peace in Christ.

As pertaining to Paul's writtings we must look at them in context:

Romans 11
Israel's Rejection Not Total

 1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"?[a]

4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


      " God has given them a spirit of stupor,
       Eyes that they should not see
      And ears that they should not hear,
      To this very day."[d]

   " Let their table become a snare and a trap,
      A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
       10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
       And bow down their back always
."[e]

   
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh (Israelites) and save some of them.

Remember,...

2 Corinthians 2:
14Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

 15For we are unto God a sweet savour
(smell and/or taste) of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

 16To the one
(those who do not believe) we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other(those who believe in Christ) the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not, as so many, peddling (making money on) the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

And what did Christ (THE GOLDEN TRUTH) say to Israel?

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

We all die the first (fleshy) death, but we do not all die the second (spiritual), death.  Unless we believe in Christ Jesus, there is no hope.

Romans 3
 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


We see we are justified by Faith in Christ, without faith we are not justified by any means.

There is but one path to the eternal kingdom of God, that path is faith in Christ Jesus.  Make no misunderstanding on this matter.

And again, what did Jesus (The Golden Truth) tell Nicodemus when he came to visit him?

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


And again, what did John the Baptist teach those who would listen?

John 3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Christ and John spoke truth, and did not make it hard to be understood as Paul does (I.E. Romans, Cor, Tim, Acts, etc. etc.):

Peter is my witness:
2 Peter 3:

 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


I take the time to write unto you all, not to fight or be contrite, but to edify you and urge you to have strong faith in the Lord Jesus, and to do that which he requires; Love the good and abhoring the evil in men.  Doing good to even those who persecute you, loaning without expecting it in return, and having mercy on all, specially those who love the Lord Jesus.

Peace and wisdom to all in Christ.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 09:29:37 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 11:41:08 PM »
And I've never met a human being that did not have love in their heart.  Often buried beneath shame, guilt, self hate etc.

but imo

Love is in the heart of all humans. 


5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. --Genesis 6



Proverbs 10:20
The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.



laren

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 12:08:07 AM »
And I've never met a human being that did not have love in their heart.  Often buried beneath shame, guilt, self hate etc.

but imo

Love is in the heart of all humans. 


5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. --Genesis 6



Proverbs 10:20
The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.




For me, the new covenant man is different than the old. 

when we awaken to who we already are, to the Love of Christ, it flows from within outward. 

henceforth, we know no man after the flesh. 

JMO





« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 12:12:34 AM by laren »

Michele

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2007, 12:20:35 AM »
The old adage "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he," encompasses our entire lives including every condition and circumstance. A man is literally what he thinks, his character being the complete sum of all his thoughts.

James Allen

laren

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2007, 02:50:12 AM »
And I've never met a human being that did not have love in their heart.  Often buried beneath shame, guilt, self hate etc.

but imo

Love is in the heart of all humans. 


5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. --Genesis 6



Proverbs 10:20
The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.




If this is true of non believing humans today, how can a non believer love. 

How can a non believer jump into icy water to save a drowning boy??

How can a non believer open a door or carry her groceries for an 80 year old woman. 

How can non believers bring sick fellow employees cooked dinners??

How can a non believer hug their friend who just got divorced and let them know they'll be ok??

How can ......etc?? 


How can this be, if every inclination of the thoughts of their heart is only evil.  Are these all conterfeit love, is this satan disguised as an angel of light?? 

I personally don't think so.  I believe God/love is present in the heart of all mankind. 

any thots?? 

Offline Molly

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 04:09:19 AM »
It is often hard for us to discern good and evil.


Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



But this interests me.  What does it mean?



10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
--Revelation 22

laren

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 04:30:05 AM »
It is often hard for us to discern good and evil.


Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



But this interests me.  What does it mean?



10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
--Revelation 22



Do "Ishmael" and "Isaac" still exist side by side?  has "Ishmael and the bondwoman" been cast out yet?  Is the new covenant in full force, or not yet come in fullness??

Is the time at hand still?? 

are we the families blessed through the seed?? or are we a part of the seed??

These to me are the questions I ask myself??.   
 

« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 04:31:52 AM by laren »

Offline Molly

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 05:09:37 AM »
Can evil recognize good?


10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.--John 1


Does darkness embrace light?


11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. --John 1


How do we discern good and evil?   How do we know truth?


32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."--John 1





19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."--John 3

arup

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2007, 05:26:07 AM »

If this is true of non believing humans today, how can a non believer love. 

How can a non believer jump into icy water to save a drowning boy??

How can a non believer open a door or carry her groceries for an 80 year old woman. 

How can non believers bring sick fellow employees cooked dinners??

How can a non believer hug their friend who just got divorced and let them know they'll be ok??

How can ......etc?? 


How can this be, if every inclination of the thoughts of their heart is only evil.  Are these all conterfeit love, is this satan disguised as an angel of light?? 

I personally don't think so.  I believe God/love is present in the heart of all mankind. 

any thots?? 

Laren,  your examples make me think of the good Samaritan...

Offline Molly

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2007, 06:03:26 AM »
Oops.  I just realized that this thread is under arguments against universal salvation.

I don't see the problem of good and evil, or different kinds of men,  residing there, so I just wanted to say, I don't normally come into this area, but the topic is one that interests me, so I wandered in by mistake.

Offline Peacetroll

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2007, 07:22:00 PM »
Nice thoughts and scripture Molly.

I agree with you and the prophets, we think we can discern good from evil (in scripture especially), but we can not without the Love of God in our hearts (otherwise known as the spirit of Christ or Christ in us).


Ephesians 3
 
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father  (God's true name is MAN!!) of our Lord Jesus Christ (The Son of Man!!),

15Of whom the whole family (Who is Christ' family?? HE TOLD US!!), in heaven and earth is named,

 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

 18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.



Peace in Christ.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1 Peter 4:10
As every man (or Family Member of Man from above!) hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

And now that you know what a real man is, you can understand without confusion much more of Pauls' writtings!

Ephesians 1:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved



Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men (The whole family of Christ!), see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


And now we will see that when we understand the two various meaning of man (that of earthy and that of the heavenly), Pauls writtings do not conflict with Christ!

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men (Earthy; who do not have the spirit of Man from above), for my name's sake: but he that endureth (in faith in him) to the end shall be saved.



1 Timothy 2:3-5 (King James Version)
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

 4Who will have all men (Those of the family of Christ, or SONS OF MAN), to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (Without the spirit of God/Man from above, you can not hear him therefore he is not YOUR mediator!), the man Christ Jesus;


Case in point:


John 8:
 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, (or if they were of his family or...MEN) ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it
.


May Christ bless you in all wisdom and understanding, as to bring about unfeigned faith in your hearts.


« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 07:41:08 PM by Peacetroll »
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Offline Molly

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2007, 04:28:34 AM »
Beautiful, Peacetroll!

vagabond

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2007, 07:21:08 PM »
Good post peacetroll!

There are two types of men seen throughout the bible. And when this is discerned all scriptures flow perfectly.

The first is of the earth, earthy, and as the beast it's spirit will return to the earth where it came from. The second man is born of God, and except the first man become "born again" he cannot "see" the kingdom of heaven. To God, until a man is born from above he is not even born. God has already made special provisions of mercy for the "unbegotten"....the grave... where all of his troubles and sins are forgotten.

As for "everyman" having love in him....true....but the love of God is far different and greater then the love of man:

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


There is a "limit" to the love of man, but the love of God is perfect and "supernatural".

It's not enough to have the love of God in you, but "DWELLING" in you. A seed needs to "TAKE ROOT" otherwise it's purpose is negated and the seed is in danger of being "plucked out" or "choked out".






Offline Peacetroll

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 09:41:54 PM »
It warms my spirit to find that you  :bgdance:(Vegabond and Molly), understand what I have been trying to explain.

It is a gift from our God! :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Quote
The first is of the earth, earthy, and as the beast it's spirit will return to the earth where it came from. The second man is born of God, and except the first man become "born again" he cannot "see" the kingdom of heaven. To God, until a man is born from above he is not even born. God has already made special provisions of mercy for the "unbegotten"....the grave... where all of his troubles and sins are forgotten.
  :icon_king: :thumbsup:

Peace to all in Christ! :icon_flower: :boyheart:

Peacetroll.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

martincisneros

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Re: What is a Man???
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 10:29:23 AM »
My comments will be in maroon.

For many years, I simply understood a 'man' to be people in general.  I never understood that men or man can be used in one of two context's in scripture, here are the two context's I understand that 'man' or 'men' fall under:

1). To mean mankind in general (simply the flesh and blood, not concerning the spiritual).

2). The spiritual man, those with MAN (GOD), indwelling, evident by their fruits.  The use of 'Man' in the spiritual sense includes only those with LOVE in their hearts.

Once one begins to understand the two uses of the word 'man' in scripture, a sort of awakening may occur.

Now lets take a look at some scripture that is greatly misunderstood (and even contradictory if we do not understand the spiritual definition of man), but greatly clarified once a person has a solid grasp on the spiritual definition of 'Man'.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Ah, if we take 'men' to simply mean the flesh and blood and bones person, then we can misunderstand this to mean every human-animal ever born.

But if you're presuming that there are any spiritual men without Jesus Christ and before the New Birth that He brings to their lives, then you're in a gnostic heresy.  I won't even dignify your assumption that animals won't enter into the liberties of the children of God.  Animals are symbiotically linked to man by Creation, Eschatology, and EVERY Biblical Covenant.  They're one of the reasons, though not the only reason by any remote stretch, but they're one of the reasons why ET and Annihilationism aren't true, because of what I've just said.  Biblically, they're also a really really great refutation of dispensational premillenialism, but I don't have the time right now... :Sparkletooth:

Again,

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Again, if we do not understand the spiritual definition of 'man' we again miss the deeper meaning of Paul's statement in Timothy 2:4.  When we do not understand the spiritual definition of 'man', we read much of Pauls writtings, and with this misunderstanding allot of his writtings become contradictory.  BUT if we understand the true definition of 'Man' in the spiritual sense, then Pauls writtings greatly clarify and do not contradict.

Again, you seem to be presupposing that there were any spiritual men without their being quickened by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.  The spiritual man IS "saved" through Jesus Christ, why would the spiritual man need to get "saved?"  Your interpretation is ludicrous.  God wills the salvation of all men that are alive or will ever live.  He's already got all of the rest, along with all of the aborted/miscarried babies, and the animals that have thus far died. :cloud9:

Who is a MAN (spiritually speaking)????

A man is a child of God according to Psalm 82 and Acts 17.  That is the spiritual interpretation of a man, Biblically and Universally when you examine those Scriptures.  Now whether or not they're made alive in the spirit through a confrontation with Jesus Christ already or not is an entirely different question.  And Biblically, you're in error: man is divided into 3 categories: natural man (which is the unsaved man) carnal man (which is the babe in Christ) and the spiritual man (which is those in Christ who've been conformed to His image through His Word, Blood, Faith, and the Anointing).  The fact that there are three categories of man rather than 2 does not of itself prove that this shall always be the case or that when God judges that Christ isn't able to send forth judgment to victory.  In fact, I'll drop another Biblical nugget right here that might stroke your fur the wrong way, but God's restoring the years, and the way that He originally made man is the way that man's going to stay!  The resurrection is synonymous with the judgment.  Beyond the resurrection people will again start having children.  His Kingdom is an ever-increasing Kingdom -- the increase of which shall never end, as the Scriptures say.  Death shall be no more, but you can't find anywhere that it says that babies shall be no more.  Marriage contracts are anulled at death, as Paul explained in Romans.  That's all that Jesus was saying when He corrected the little theological heresy about women in the resurrection and beyond being necessarily obligated to recognize those prior bonds of matrimony in this earth.

So what did Jesus call himself? (thus revealing the true name of God)!!!

Matthew 16:13
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

You see?!  Jesus was the son of MAN!!!

I get so excited just talking about this, I can't express my joy to God for revealing this to me, a chief sinner!!!

So, you're into a type of Jehovah's Witnesses humanism that rejects that Christ's "Ben Adam" prophetic title throughout the Hebrew Scriptures necessitates Him being the promised incarnation of divinity in Genesis 3:15, and Isaiah 9, huh?  And you're forgetting about the very question that Jesus asked the Apostles when He called Himself the Son of Man and the answer from Peter that He validated as not having been revealed to him by flesh and blood.  Beyond that, Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.  He's also called the Amen in Scripture, which I've not found anyone but myself and Origen to have ever studied indepth in all of Church history.

Mark 3
32And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
 33And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?  
34And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
 35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


You see, if you have love in your heart (evident in your fruits), you are in the family of Jesus, or a son of Man, or a MAN!!!!!

Was love what Jesus was addressing in this passage of Scripture, or is it the believing on Him Whom the Father has sent that Jesus gave as an answer elsewhere with regards to how to work the works of God?  And the fact that there are those who do the will of God and those who don't do the will of God does not mean that those who do the will of God are incapable of leading those who don't do the will of God to do the will of God.  Jesus Christ is heir of the heathen and not Gehenna.  Gehenna during the time of the Jewish Temple worship would receive the excess from the blood of the animals that were slaughtered, which prefigured that the Blood of Christ would benefit not only the living, but also those who are in the state of Gehenna for false paradigms, whether they're alive or dead.

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

To be a man (spiritually speaking), you must have God indwelling!  Thus you become a brother to the Son of Man, a child of MAN, thus....a MAN!!!

No one has God indwelling them without having embraced the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  And no one embraces the Lordship of Jesus Christ without the preaching of the Gospel, either by ministry or by Jesus Christ Himself, as in the case of the thousands that saw and heard Jesus after His resurrection (of whom Luke interviewed a few over 500 for the compilation of his Gospel account, which is where St. Paul got that number in 1Corinthians 15), or in the case of Saul of Tarsus according to Galatians 1, or in the case of various others throughout the last couple thousand years that embraced the Lordship of Jesus through the direct preaching of Jesus Christ.  And people obviously also renounce their ungodliness and are renewed in the spirit of their mind through the preaching of Gospel ministers today, besides and in collaboration with the High Priestly ministry of Jesus Christ.

Once you understand this, so many things in scripture will become clearer!!!

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Now you can read Paul and understand more clearly!

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

I hope you will consider what I am presenting to you.   IT is a pearl of wisdom.  Many scriptures that may be confusing or contradictory in nature to a UR will become crystal clear once you have come to grips with God's true definition of a 'Man'!!!

Peace in Christ Jesus, the Son of MAN!!!!!

Might by all means save "some" because Paul wasn't personally responsible for all of mankind.  If by any means I might save some would apply to my ministry, George MacDonald's, George De Benneville's, Elhanan Winchester's, Carlton Pearson's, and anyone else that preaches the Gospel.  It's not a reflection upon the entire work of Christ, but upon St. Paul's portion of Jesus's ministry in the earth when he wrote "that by any means I might save some."  This again is nothing to the purpose of trying to prove that because some are natural men, some are carnal men, and some are like the Man of Heaven that all men won't ultimately wear and be filled with and be permeated with the glory of the Man of heaven.  They all belong to Him by conquest, and now 1Corinthians 15 says that they must all be placed at His feet in every way that they're not yet under His feet -- which means in their hearts.