Author Topic: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me  (Read 3648 times)

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relieved1

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Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« on: December 05, 2009, 12:47:28 AM »
Hi,
I had pretty much become a believer of universal salvation.  However, my friend asked me a question  that I can't really find a logical explanation for.
He said, "If everyone is going to be saved and there is no hell, then why did Jesus have to take the excruciating punishment that he did?"
It took me aback, because I had come to believe that there is no hell (the bible had been misinterpreted) and now I can not think of a good explanation except that there will be a "separating the goats from the sheep".
Any thoughts?
Thanks.

natcat86

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2009, 12:58:55 AM »
Because every one sins, and the wages of sin is death, but thanks to Jesus sacrifice on the cross one day we will be resurected from death. Jesus also reconcilled us back to God, because we sin we were seperated from Him but Jesus has reconcilled us and now we can have a relationship with the Father, we just need to repent and walk in it!

I get asked that a lot by ETers, whats the point of the cross then if every one is saved, but no one could have been saved if it weren't for the cross, its because of the cross tht everyone is saved, not from hell but from seperation from Father and death.

Thats my interpretation anywho

 :icon_flower:

Offline willieH

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2009, 01:15:00 AM »
willieH: Hi relieved1 -- :welcome: to TM!  :cloud9:

Hi,
I had pretty much become a believer of universal salvation.  However, my friend asked me a question  that I can't really find a logical explanation for.
He said, "If everyone is going to be saved and there is no hell, then why did Jesus have to take the excruciating punishment that he did?"

Here is my  :2c:

It is GOD's will, and occured the way it did, because it is the way of PERFECTION... Suffering is part of the WAY of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10

This realm is not about some "Plan of God" that went "haywire"... the PURPOSE of this realm, and the course of the human race, is the revelation of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of God which contains both GOOD and EVIL... which are BOTH elements of the SAME KNOWLEDGE, rooted in the SAME TREE!

And in order for ANY to become as IS God... they must KNOW this KNOWLEDGE -- Gen 3:22

We, as humans are the CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH -- Ps 82 -- and are the REVELATION (in LIVING TERMS), of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

That JESUS CHRIST had to bear pain and suffering is Him sharing, in what WE endure here as well...

The DISPLAY of GOOD (God's WORD made flesh = JESUS CHRIST) -- redeeming GOOD (us - God's CHILDREN) -- from their LIVING involvement with EVIL.

It was already a "done deal" before any MAN sinned -- Rev 13:8

Quote
It took me aback, because I had come to believe that there is no hell (the bible had been misinterpreted) and now I can not think of a good explanation except that there will be a "separating the goats from the sheep".
Any thoughts?
Thanks.

The "sheep and goats" are the workings of GOOD and EVIL... that which is done IN CHRIST shall abide, that which is done APART from Him shall be burned, in THIS LIFE in which we are TRIED -- 1 Pet 4:12 -- as was CHRIST -- Rev 3:18 --  -- which IS... the Lake of FIRE -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

There is more to say, but that is the jist of it...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline chuckt

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 01:42:23 AM »
Quote
"If everyone is going to be saved and there is no hell, then why did Jesus have to take the excruciating punishment that he did?"

thats the answer.

there is a lake of fire, there is punishment, there is destruction, etc, but Yeshua sves from DEATH not eternal torment, there is NO  eternal torture, its pagan, its myth.

death is what all men are gonna be saved from, or else Abba Fathers Christ, didn not destroy death.

we all are gonna loose something, we all will be salted with fire and saved thru fire.

only other alternative is anhaliation.

to have a place of punishment that is eternal, neverending torment, is down right unrighteous.

chuckt



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Offline onlytruth

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 02:08:39 AM »
JESUS WAS OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH ITSELF,
Jesus didn't have to die...but he gave himself willingly,to show us the way.This is life... when we do, what the Father tells us.Did Jesus sweat over it?OH YA HE DID!
If Jesus didn't follow his Fathers voice, He would still be alive today!
Jesus had to show even death was conquered,that is why the ressurection is so important
blessings :icon_king:

Offline sheila

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 02:38:29 AM »
 Willie I loved that post!!

    Perfection is reached through suffering. Suffering is brought

 about by evil[tool]

   Jesus said , "You must be perfect,as your Father in heaven is "

                                   Sheila

 

Offline willieH

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 02:52:39 AM »
willieH: Hi Sheila...  :cloud9:

Willie I loved that post!!

    Perfection is reached through suffering. Suffering is brought

 about by evil[tool]

   Jesus said , "You must be perfect,as your Father in heaven is "

                                   Sheila

 :boyheart:  :ty:  Glad it was helpful to you!  :cloud9:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline chuckt

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 03:09:16 AM »
Quote
Jesus didn't have to die


YES he did have to die!!!
2

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 04:15:17 AM »
Willie summed it up well IMO.

The "fall" was not an accident - it was God's plan.   How else could we become like our Father without the experience of knowing both good and evil?  Yet how could we have any concept of mercy if we never needed to give or receive it.  How could we know what love is unless at some point we felt unloved and alone.   There must be a TEST, A TRIAL, AN EXPERIENCE in order for anything to be meaningful.  If I had never known fear or experienced the consequences of sin and death, how could I truly appreciate being saved?

I personally think that those ETers who ask this question over and over again don't spend much time thinking.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 05:18:57 AM »
Willie summed it up well IMO.

The "fall" was not an accident - it was God's plan.   How else could we become like our Father without the experience of knowing both good and evil?  Yet how could we have any concept of mercy if we never needed to give or receive it.  How could we know what love is unless at some point we felt unloved and alone.   There must be a TEST, A TRIAL, AN EXPERIENCE in order for anything to be meaningful.  If I had never known fear or experienced the consequences of sin and death, how could I truly appreciate being saved?

I personally think that those ETers who ask this question over and over again don't spend much time thinking.

Anne

A huge AMEN to that sister.  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

relieved1

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 09:36:28 PM »
Thank you all so much for responding.  It makes perfect sense and it is what I want to believe.
I just have one more question, because this was the rebuttal:
Then why did God create certain people for destruction, such as Pharoah, and why did he choose one person over another such as Jacob over Esau, if only certain people are not going to be saved.

I appreciate your help, because I don't have a great enough understanding yet. 

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 09:39:46 PM »
An immediate apprehension given the influence of the Spirit, requires a literal experience?

Offline sven

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 10:47:42 PM »
according to the bible the wages of sin is death

the souls of men are mortal

without Christ's death and ressurection, mankind altogether would have perished

now, is to save billions of men from death, from utter extinction, not worth enough to die for them?

the problem is, believers in ET do not believe that there is something like death and that man are mortal, thus they say, Jesus saved men from eternal life in hell, but Jesus didn't suffer eternal torment, but death and this is what He saved mankind from in my view.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 12:57:37 AM »
Thank you all so much for responding.  It makes perfect sense and it is what I want to believe.
I just have one more question, because this was the rebuttal:
Then why did God create certain people for destruction, such as Pharoah, and why did he choose one person over another such as Jacob over Esau, if only certain people are not going to be saved.

I appreciate your help, because I don't have a great enough understanding yet.  

I believe that's exactly how/why a loving God would create some vessels of dishonor to fulfill His purposes and plan - because that condition is temporary, and He will reconcile them and fix it all in the end.   :thumbsup:

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 11:15:46 PM »
Thank you all so much for responding.  It makes perfect sense and it is what I want to believe.
I just have one more question, because this was the rebuttal:
Then why did God create certain people for destruction, such as Pharoah, and why did he choose one person over another such as Jacob over Esau, if only certain people are not going to be saved.

I appreciate your help, because I don't have a great enough understanding yet. 
Because thats how God chooses to display his glory; one person/nation/group at a time. God told abram that he would make him into a great nation(Israel). Was it because he only loves and wants to save one nation? no...because "all peoples of the earth will be blessed through you" (gen 12:3). Israel became Gods chosen people to bless the gentiles too. Then after Christ came, Israel was not exclusively a nation anymore, but also had gentiles "grafted" in as well(romans 11)...this is now the Church. The Church is also not the only peoples that God wants to save, but use to bless and ultimatley bring in the rest of humanity.

If you want a good explanation of how all this works in the grand biblical story, read "the evangelical universalist". Im reading it right now and it shows how universalism is threaded all through the story of the bible.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 11:21:35 PM »

  ...but use to bless and ultimately bring in the rest of humanity.

And all the generations. Amen.
Makes the "rapture theory" even more ludicrous.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2010, 05:41:14 AM »
.
He said, "If everyone is going to be saved and there is no hell, then why did Jesus have to take the excruciating punishment that he did?"




The answer is in scripture

Hb 5:8 even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered.






friendofmankind

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2010, 05:46:12 AM »
Jesus died to defeat sin and death...not eternal torcher.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2010, 06:55:43 AM »
Here's about the order of resurrection and ultimate destiny for all.  Christ is the first "that  in all He may be having pre-eminence."  Notice it doesn't say, "All in Christ shall be made alive."  It says, "In Christ, shall all be made alive."  It also says, "each in his own class."  "Class" means "order," or, "rank," as in military ranks.  Some of this pertains to consecutive order with the passing of time and some is difference in glory or substance.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 36-44 (Concordant Literal Translation)...

20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

36 ...What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying.
37 And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest.
38 Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes.
40 There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial,
41 another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory.
42 Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power.
44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Chris

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2010, 12:49:31 AM »
I agree with what others have said; that not even ONE would have been saved from sin and death without Christ. Those who ask why Christ is "necessary" if "all" are saved need to ask themselves why they are asking that question. Why would Christ be "necessary" to save "some" but not be necessary to save "all"?

JESUS WAS OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH ITSELF,
Jesus didn't have to die...but he gave himself willingly,to show us the way.This is life... when we do, what the Father tells us.Did Jesus sweat over it?OH YA HE DID!
If Jesus didn't follow his Fathers voice, He would still be alive today!
Jesus had to show even death was conquered,that is why the ressurection is so important
blessings :icon_king:

Are you saying that Jesus Christ (the man) was not mortal and subject to physical death?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 12:53:48 AM by Chris »

martincisneros

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2010, 01:09:47 AM »
Hi,
I had pretty much become a believer of universal salvation.  However, my friend asked me a question  that I can't really find a logical explanation for.
He said, "If everyone is going to be saved and there is no hell, then why did Jesus have to take the excruciating punishment that he did?"
It took me aback, because I had come to believe that there is no hell (the bible had been misinterpreted) and now I can not think of a good explanation except that there will be a "separating the goats from the sheep".
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Whether or not there's a Hell, there has been a fall, and Romans 5 and 2Corinthians 5 say that Christ's death was to remedy that evil. Christ went to the Cross to save us from our sins, the just for the unjust to bring us to God as 1Peter says; handed over to death for our transgressions and raised again for our justification according to Romans.  The Cross is the ladder out of the hole all of us fell into thanks to both Adam and Eve and environmental and genetic factors that caused us to make our own decisions that were at enmity with God. As Isaiah 53 says, all we like sheep had gone astray, but He's laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.  2Corinthians 5:21 says that God made Christ who was sinless to be reckoned as or accounted as sin, (made sin actually but that's too mystical for some people to grasp) so that we'd be made the righteousness of God in Him.

1Peter 2:24 by His stripes ye were healed, as far as the additional question along side of that one that's often posed about why such a horrific death to bring about our restoration.  To deal with every single level of our poverty from the molecular level to the financial level is why He went to the Cross according to 2Corinthians 8:9 and you can paraphrase Colossians 1:20 the same way if you'll accept the inference of "Shalom" that's also the word for prosperity in the Old Testament where you see the word "peace" in Colossians 1:20: He's made prosperity by the blood of His cross for all things that came out of Him, including every seen and unseen principality and power.  To cleanse all of us from unrighteousness as we walk in the light as He's in the light according to 1John 1:7.

To be brought near, according to Ephesians 2:13.  To disband and make our sins stop being in Ephesians 1:7, as though it were an army arrayed against our souls that He's put down in His conquest of death.  This is often translated "remit" in Ephesians 1:7 and watered down to mere forgiveness by other translations, but He dealt with the core of all that makes our lives evil and incomplete and took away both the handwriting on the note that stood against us according to Colossians, but in having gone beyond the veil according to Hebrews 6, He's poured out His Holy Spirit upon all those that obey Him according to Peter's preaching in Acts.  By binding Himself in a covenant framework to where He's OBLIGATED to prevent any further falls and suffering, He's given security and peace for the future.

There was an absorbing and a becoming of all that was evil that occured on the Cross so that He could get inside of all that was evil and annihilate the evil without annihilating His Creation.  To some theologians to believe the Classical view of atonement smacks too much of witchcraft in one's theology, but it's the plain meaning of the Scriptural texts whatever mystical understanding it forces one to embrace as having been the depths of Hell to which God had to go when He became Man to reseat all of His children with Him in heavenly places and to cause them to rise above all things, in the fullness of time, so that they'd fill all things with their head, Christ Jesus.

Offline onlytruth

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2010, 12:29:30 AM »
Hi Chris, Jesus was like you and I and had to make a choice.Just like he had to make a choice when tempted,that is why he was obedient even unto death.He surrendered himself completely to his Father's will.
If Jesus said "no ,I think I can do a better job ,I should stick around a while"...he would still be alive.
Jesus is our example...the way
blessings :icon_king:

martincisneros

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2010, 04:41:16 AM »
Deviation from Father's will would have most certainly been death anyway for Lord Jesus, but He wouldn't have gotten up that time after the 3rd day because the wages of sin is death without respect of persons.  Might of lived 930 years 'cause we were talking about a body that was completely whole that sin would have entered into if He'd varied from Father's will, but Romans 5 and 1Corinthians 15 indicates He's last Adam, which means He was an Adam, though not the same one that screwed up in Genesis 3, lest anyone misunderstand me.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2010, 05:07:46 AM »
Jesus is "the last Adam" and "the new man."

Because He is the legal and actual Head of "Adamic humanity" (homo sapiens,) for Him to die means the end of that species for accomplishing salvation from vanity and death.  It has to come from somewhere else.  "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead..." (2 Co 5:14, AV)  Through death Jesus defeated who had the power of death.  Jesus, by His deeds has demonstrated worthiness and now has keys, legitimately acquired, of  hades and death.  "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

What Jesus is in resurrection is a "new man" (homo novae,) ascended to fill all and bring all into one with Himself as Head.

Ephesians 1:9-11, 19-23 (AV)...
9 . . . Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will . . .
19 . . . And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The salvation Jesus wrought is the regeneration of our spirits, the awakening of our souls and their alignment with the mind of Christ, as well as the liberation of our bodies from corruption and raising them into immortal liberty of the glory.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 05:15:13 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Chris

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Re: Was asked a question that has completely stumped me
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 03:16:06 AM »
Hi Chris, Jesus was like you and I and had to make a choice.Just like he had to make a choice when tempted,that is why he was obedient even unto death.He surrendered himself completely to his Father's will.
If Jesus said "no ,I think I can do a better job ,I should stick around a while"...he would still be alive.
Jesus is our example...the way
blessings :icon_king:
Sorry, I know that this is an old post so may not get answered, but I figured I would comment anyway...

Yes, He is our example.  :thumbsup:

And as He is so are we, in this world.  :thumbsup: (And yet that doesn't make us "immortal" in the flesh, does it?)

So how does that make Jesus immortal in the flesh? How does the fact that He laid down His life (to be crucified, rather than die a "natural" death) prove that He would still be alive today had he not done so?

Was the word "made flesh" or not? Was Jesus "a man" or not?

Even those who LIVE AND BELIEVE die a natural death though Jesus said they SHALL NEVER DIE. It's not about the flesh, but the spirit. So why would you assume that Jesus' flesh would not return to the dust from which it came just as ours does had he not been crucified (as had He not been crucified, He would not be The Lord, yes?)

Are you saying that the resurrected Christ was no different from the one that walked the earth before He was crucified?