Author Topic: vessels of wrath  (Read 2888 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NinjaWizards777

  • Guest
vessels of wrath
« on: March 19, 2009, 09:02:55 PM »
another passage of scripture that someone I have been debating with used to "prove" that God just makes some people to spend eternity in hell and others to be saved...and that we "have no right to question that".

 
Romans 9:
"19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For(Z) who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?(AB) Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21(AC) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump(AD) one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience(AE) vessels of wrath(AF) prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known(AG) the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he(AH) has prepared beforehand for gloryŚ "

 By golly, Im sure glad God didnt make me for Hell! How lucky am I?

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12905
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2009, 09:20:49 PM »
another passage of scripture that someone I have been debating with used to "prove" that God just makes some people to spend eternity in hell and others to be saved...and that we "have no right to question that".

Indeed this verse speaks of saved and destruction. That's it.
I don't see anything about timespan. Saved from what. Or what kind of destruction.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2009, 09:42:46 PM »
another passage of scripture that someone I have been debating with used to "prove" that God just makes some people to spend eternity in hell and others to be saved...and that we "have no right to question that".

 
Romans 9:
"19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For(Z) who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man,(AA) to answer back to God?(AB) Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21(AC) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump(AD) one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience(AE) vessels of wrath(AF) prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known(AG) the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he(AH) has prepared beforehand for gloryŚ "

 By golly, Im sure glad God didnt make me for Hell! How lucky am I?

Why, were you Not also Formed ( as Clay\Flesh) from the Ground?  :icon_flower:

Its a similitude of the Flesh being FORMED ,Pharoah is a  Type Of Sodom and Egypt, a Spiritual Type of THOSE born Under the LAW( Old Jerusalem)

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  

Was Not the LAW, THE Former Glory?, seen as Us all Moving from DEATH to LiFe , Law to Grace and Truth , Flesh to Spirit. ..speaking of Us individually as the Old man which perishes and the New Man In Christ , but also shows two type of Folk, Jews Under Law and the Spiritual Jew, Both Born from above both Gentile and Jew?

Formed , Made and Created .....outer, inner and Holy of holies. :icon_flower:

 its the Formed which perishes, as Nate once stated..No mention of the outer Court come measuring the Temple In Revelation.

Gods Mercy and Compassion is ON ALL, but for mine shown in type here in Romans 9 :icon_flower:

Tis the LAW and those who abide( Children of Wrath) there , HIS wrath is upon.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Kinda more here than we first perceive :icon_flower:

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.


 Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)


 Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


 Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
.
and Hell itself has its time in the Lake of Fire,  :icon_flower: Yeah,,,Death itself IS NO MORE

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 10:06:19 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 10:24:41 PM »
another passage of scripture that someone I have been debating with used to "prove" that God just makes some people to spend eternity in hell and others to be saved...and that we "have no right to question that".

Indeed this verse speaks of saved and destruction. That's it.
I don't see anything about timespan. Saved from what. Or what kind of destruction.

I always find these verses on 'destruction' quite interesting.  They invariably come from the greek word (or a deriviative) apollymi - which means to be destroyed, perished, or lost.  Its all the same word.

We see many places in the bible where people will perish, be destroyed, or be lost in the bible.  It all sounds so final and ultimate.

Yet we know Jesus came for this reason:

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost [apollymi].

So Jesus came to seek & save that which is lost,  perished, and destroyed!

God makes some for destruction, but don't assume that is the end.  There will be a reconcillation of all things (Col 1:20), through Christ, who will save all of the apollymi.

Peace,
Legoman

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2009, 10:42:44 PM »
Fitted to destruction

There is a doctern that the church has been teaching for so long now that mankind excepts it without actually taking it to God and check it out in His word to see if it is true.
This doctern is based on fear and is a lie more damaging then the one about the rapture.
This doctern is ETERNAL TORMENT (E.T.) it is a lie and has not even entered into the mind of God.
The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1Tim4:10
Did you get that? Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY of those that believe.
The bible tell us Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Brothers and sisters this corn of wheat was FITTED to destruction. which brings me to the topic at hand.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
I see two different conclusions to this verse.
1) ALL MEN-UNIVERSAL
2) ONE MAN-PERSONAL
And I believe the scriptures speak of both and that both are assured to come to pass.

1) ALL MEN

Ro.9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art
thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him
that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the
potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel
unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to
shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that
he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom
he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Now why would God make vessels unto dishonour ? So that He could
shew His wrath and make His power known.(the power of the
cross)

Why did He make vessels unto honour ? So He could make known
the riches of His glory.

The vessels unto honour everyone I think will agree are those that
overcome in this life,and the vessels of dishonour are those
that don't.

Okay then lets look how God is going to shew forth the power of
the cross to the vessels of dishonour. What if God, willing to shew
his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You can see that these vessels are fitted to distruction,but what
does it mean to be fitted to distruction? Let look at it:The word fitted
comes from the Greek word 2675 katartizo { kat-ar-tid'-zo}

from 2596 and a derivative of 739; TDNT - 1:475,80; v

AV - perfect 2, make perfect 2, mend 2, be perfect 2, fit 1, frame
1, prepare 1, restore 1, perfectly joined together 1; 13

GK - 2936 { katartivzw }

1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he
ought to be
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

so you can see they are to be made complete as they ought to be
made,and how is that? in the image of God.

So then both the vessels of honour and dishonour are made
complete in Christ. All men will be saved.

2) ONE MAN

Verse 21 says Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the SAME LUMP to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
This SAME LUMP is speaking of ONE MAN (one body). It is speaking of our old man (flesh) and the spiritual man. One vessel unto honour ( spiritual man) ,one vessel unto dishonour (old man) of the SAME LUMP. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Verse 17 says For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Am I ever glad that God in His wisdom used Pharaoh for this statement. Pharaoh is an example of our old man (flesh). Pharaoh kept Gods children in bitter bondage and would not let them go , until the deliverer Moses ( type of Christ) came and delivered Gods people out of bitter bondage, and slew Pharaoh and the Egyptians in the sea(type of baptisem). In like manner our old man (flesh) keeps us in bitter bondage until we are delivered by Jesus Christ and our old man(flesh) and all works of the old man (flesh) are destroyed by baptisem in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Our old man(flesh) is fitted to destruction so the new man can come forth , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

This is exactly what the second death accomplishes in our life.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They shall not be hurt does not by any means mean that they don't go though the 2nd death , it means that they do go though but like the 3 Hebrew children they will not be hurt in the fire. They have in fact become a part of the fire.


More on fitted. (katartizo )

Katartizo ( fitted ) Is always used for making things as they should be made.

We read in Mt.4:41 & Mk.1:19 of James and John mending (katartizo ) thier nets.

We read in Co.1:10 how we are to be perfectly joined together (katartizo) in mind and judgment with Christ.

In Gal.6:1 we read how we are to restore(katartizo) one who are taken in a fault.

In Heb.13:20-21 we read how our great shepherd through the blood of the everlasting covenant, makes us perfect (katartizo) in every good work to do Hid will.

And in

1 Peter 5:10 we read

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect(katartizo) stablish, strengthen, settle you.

That after we have SUFFERED a while makes us perfect, establishs us, strengthens us,and settles us.

Brother we are all fitted to destruction , wherein our old man is crucified forevermore no longer to rise again because a NEW MAN is standing where an old man once stood.

God will mend and restore us in His fire unto a perfect man.


One here brought out that the wages of sin is death , not eternal torment.
This is a true observation.
But what death is being spoken of here?
It is the 2nd death that is the wages of sin.
Now most people say no one in scripture is ever stated to have come out of the 2nd death so UR's have a problem trying to say that people will when no scripture states such a thing.

But the scriptures state it loud and clear , as a matter of fact the scriptures scream it.

For if the wages of sin is death and Jesus Christ paid the wages for our sins and was resurrected out of death ( and He most assuredly was resurrected ) we to in like manor will be raised with Him.

Now for those that would state that this death is not the 2nd death but our natural death I have but one question.

If a natural death is the wages of sin , why is there a second death to punish sin afterwards?

Brothers and sister , Jesus Christ has been resurrected.




Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 11:06:37 PM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 11:25:26 PM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 03:01:38 AM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:

I'm gonna shank one here . . .but this verse Taf quoted . . .Ephesians 2 . . .I'm really wincing in writing this question . . .but would this not be also connected to the masturbation conversation we had earlier in the week?  Is that not fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind?

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2009, 03:06:42 AM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:

I'm gonna shank one here . . .but this verse Taf quoted . . .Ephesians 2 . . .I'm really wincing in writing this question . . .but would this not be also connected to the masturbation conversation we had earlier in the week?  Is that not fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind?

yikes I can see why you were wincing in writing th equestion  :laughing7:

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2009, 03:24:28 AM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:

I'm gonna shank one here . . .but this verse Taf quoted . . .Ephesians 2 . . .I'm really wincing in writing this question . . .but would this not be also connected to the masturbation conversation we had earlier in the week?  Is that not fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind?
Not this time of Nite bro..im going to get ya all up state side one day about 4am and do the same..specially as today hasnt been one of its best. :icon_flower:


Conversation....

2Cr 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:  



 Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.  

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;  

compared to Holy conversation and those things spoken..

1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.


Tis the Tongue which Hold the POWER of Life and DEATH....only two other SCRIPS speak of Such..and POWERFUL SCRIPS too

Just what ARE SINS of the FLESH ?we can go to Galatians..But I see these in the spirit ,yes theres the moral issue.....

Still digging bro, waiting on more... :icon_flower:

anyways maybe that another topic bud..time for sleepies nearly..... :icon_flower:









« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 03:50:58 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2009, 03:54:01 AM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:

I'm gonna shank one here . . .but this verse Taf quoted . . .Ephesians 2 . . .I'm really wincing in writing this question . . .but would this not be also connected to the masturbation conversation we had earlier in the week?  Is that not fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind?

yikes I can see why you were wincing in writing th equestion  :laughing7:
:icon_flower:
Ok Guys, mes Welsh and slow :happy3: ....why the wincing?im just curious,,I kow ya joking,,,but lost some, but not for the first Time NOR the last :happygrin:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline FineLinen

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 728
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2009, 03:48:52 PM »
Fitted= katartivzw=
 
To render, to fit, sound, complete.
 
To mend what has been broken or rent, to repair.

To complete.

To fit out, equip.

To put in order, arrange, adjust.
 
To fit or frame for one's self, prepare.

To strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be.

Quote
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


 





In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline chuckt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 646
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 04:02:24 PM »
what about whats inside the vessel?

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


just wondering
2

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 04:22:34 PM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:

I'm gonna shank one here . . .but this verse Taf quoted . . .Ephesians 2 . . .I'm really wincing in writing this question . . .but would this not be also connected to the masturbation conversation we had earlier in the week?  Is that not fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind?


The way I see it is that people can be addicted to all sorts of things so that what is useful and beneficial in some ways when excersized properly in moderation then becomes a support mechanism to hide what the problem really is.

If your talking about conversation such as we see here in this forum, or anywhere, even in bible study groups then we can see lusts of the flesh manifest even there.

It is not the act itself that is the problem, conversation can indeed be healthy, but we can also get addicted to promoting our ideals.  We can say things many times often times trying to convince ourselves through the attempt at convincing someone else.  We can have mean spirits and even speak truthful things in a way to crush the spirits of others.   We can scoff at anothers ideals rather than see the other person being where they are in their walk and seeing where we can learn from one another.   

We can be addicted to the feeling we get from beating one anothers opinions down when we can back someone in a corner with irrefutable evidence.  Sure, we could be 100% correct, but in all that truth,  the spirit of others is not encouraged to grow but to heed our will.

All this is even worse when this is done and our opinions are in error.


I'm talking of myself when it comes to this, as I have had to really look at myself and why I write things I write. 


Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 04:49:12 PM »
I must admit, that this not my favorite verse, but look at Romans 11:32-36

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?"  "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things.


Are Not the Children of Wrath those of Disobedience?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  

 :icon_flower:

I'm gonna shank one here . . .but this verse Taf quoted . . .Ephesians 2 . . .I'm really wincing in writing this question . . .but would this not be also connected to the masturbation conversation we had earlier in the week?  Is that not fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind?

yikes I can see why you were wincing in writing th equestion  :laughing7:
:icon_flower:
Ok Guys, mes Welsh and slow :happy3: ....why the wincing?im just curious,,I kow ya joking,,,but lost some, but not for the first Time NOR the last :happygrin:

I wince because in the earlier conversation, it seemed that this activity was one that was taken as a regular part of our daily activity, (okay, "daily" may be pushing it, but this is really hard to put into words) and I really and truly don't want to offend and kick a dead horse at the same time.  I don't want to use the passage as a club against another person.  I want to use discression . . . I don't want to create another fight with it .. .but at the same time, I also want to be obedient to the prompting of the Spirit to post things that quicken .  . . when they are "quickening".

bobf

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 08:04:42 PM »
How come in Romans 9 Paul says that Hosea is saying the same thing Paul is saying?
Maybe because they are saying the same thing!

And what does Hosea say?
- That the same people who received no mercy and wrath, end up receiving mercy.
- God is going to call them My People who were called Not My People.
- God is going to call them Beloved who He called Not Beloved.
- God is going to have mercy on those who had received no mercy.

NO MERCY

  • Hosea 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.
  • Hosea 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
  • Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
  • Hosea 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These [are] my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
  • Hosea 2:13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.

MERCY ON THOSE WHO RECEIVED NO MERCY

  • Hosea 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
  • Hosea 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
  • Hosea 2:17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
  • Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
  • Hosea 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
  • Hosea 2:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
  • Hosea 2:22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
  • Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Back to Romans:

  • Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
  • Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
  • Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
  • Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
  • Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

"even us" refers to back both kinds of vessels, not just vessels of honor.  One lump, two vessels.  Just like Hosea says.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 08:31:39 PM by bobf »

NinjaWizards777

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2009, 09:37:03 AM »
idk...this is one of those verses that just seems more "ET" geared...whether it was ever intended to be or not.

Thats my biggest problem with seeing which is true between ET and UR...is that many verses seem to jump out at me and say UR!! and then others no matter how much i try to get around it seem to say ET!!!

its just a big mess

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 09:16:40 PM »
Which of the two give you freedom?  Which of the two illuminate life . .abundantly?  Which of the two speak of conformity?  Control?  Listen to the voice of the spirit as you read . . .don't rely on your reasoning mind . . . it always initiates the confusion.

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 10:02:21 PM »
pneuma, I think I agree with you that the wages of sin is spiritual death. It makes more sense to me that the second death is physical, viz. our bodily death is the second death. I don't know how well it fits with other scriptures, but it would fit the notion of those who are of the first resurrection (spiritual) are not harmed of the second death (physical). In other words, we have nothing to fear from the "second" death (our physical death) because we are of the first resurrection (spiritual). It also fits with the verbiage in Genesis: "dying you shall die" (dying spiritually, you shall die physically). Enoch, for example never died the "second" (physical) death, he just walked with the Lord and was translated. Just my  :2c: , thinking out loud.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 10:20:27 PM »
pneuma, I think I agree with you that the wages of sin is spiritual death. It makes more sense to me that the second death is physical, viz. our bodily death is the second death. I don't know how well it fits with other scriptures, but it would fit the notion of those who are of the first resurrection (spiritual) are not harmed of the second death (physical). In other words, we have nothing to fear from the "second" death (our physical death) because we are of the first resurrection (spiritual). It also fits with the verbiage in Genesis: "dying you shall die" (dying spiritually, you shall die physically). Enoch, for example never died the "second" (physical) death, he just walked with the Lord and was translated. Just my  :2c: , thinking out loud.

Hi Doc, you understood me backward bro, the wages of sin is spiritual death and that death is the second death, man was already dying a physical death before he ate from the tree, dying thou shalt die.

Just remember every vessel MUST be put through the FIRE.

Adam went into a spiritual death or second death or the fire that the fire might destroy the anitchrist spirit in him , a spirit that is instead of the spirit of Christ for "instead of" is the true mean of "anti"

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 10:37:36 PM »
pneuma, I think I agree with you that the wages of sin is spiritual death. It makes more sense to me that the second death is physical, viz. our bodily death is the second death. I don't know how well it fits with other scriptures, but it would fit the notion of those who are of the first resurrection (spiritual) are not harmed of the second death (physical). In other words, we have nothing to fear from the "second" death (our physical death) because we are of the first resurrection (spiritual). It also fits with the verbiage in Genesis: "dying you shall die" (dying spiritually, you shall die physically). Enoch, for example never died the "second" (physical) death, he just walked with the Lord and was translated. Just my  :2c: , thinking out loud.

Hi Doc, you understood me backward bro, the wages of sin is spiritual death and that death is the second death, man was already dying a physical death before he ate from the tree, dying thou shalt die.

Just remember every vessel MUST be put through the FIRE.

Adam went into a spiritual death or second death or the fire that the fire might destroy the anitchrist spirit in him , a spirit that is instead of the spirit of Christ for "instead of" is the true mean of "anti"

Oh, whoops. I missed that bit.
You're probably right that he was dying a physical death beforehand, just because of the whole business about not letting them go back and eat of the tree of life and living forever in their fallen state. I don't think I was trying to say that not every vessel must be put through the fire, just that not everyone would be hurt of it. But isn't the antichrist spirit of the flesh? I understand that the definition you posted is the correct definition of antichrist, so...Hmmm. I'm going to have to go back and rethink this apparently.

A question: If the second death is spiritual, then what does it mean to you to die the second death in the Revelation sense?
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 11:10:24 PM »
Quote
A question: If the second death is spiritual, then what does it mean to you to die the second death in the Revelation sense?

The death of the spirit inside of me that is instead of the spirit of Christ, I must decrease that He might increase.

I beleive all go through this fire Doc, although not all are hurt of it, for those that are in Christ the law hath no power over.


Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 05:00:57 PM »
All experience 2 deaths . . . the only difference is, the order in which they occur . . .if you accept Christ . . .your carnaility dies . . . and at the end of this natural life, you then die . .the second death for the saved is simply death of this natural body . . .if you reject Christ . . .you don't die at all . . until your natural life comes to an end . . .then that's your first death . . .you're cast into the lake of fire for the refining fire of God's purging . . .at which point your carnality dies then, instead of dying when you were yet alive in the natural . . .either way . . . we all have two deaths.

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 08:09:41 PM »
19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2Timothy 2:19-26

Other translations and definitely other passages of the Bible, such as the parable of the sower, Isaiah 58, etc., make it abundantly clear that people are taken captive by the devil at his discretion when they're in strife.  The history of the world, the history of the Bible, and Church history is a history of strife.  So, is it any wonder that their theologies are taken captive by him at his will?  If thou be the son of God, command these stones to be made bread....

lots of people don't understand the multiplication of bread.

2Timothy 2 is one of those passages like Mark 4 where you could read it everyday for the rest of the year and continue to learn and learn and learn from it.

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: vessels of wrath
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2009, 08:29:17 PM »
That's a great passage.  You're reminding me of Genesis where dust becomes the serpents meat.  When we walk in the flesh . . .we become the meal to the very thing we keep feeding.