Author Topic: Verses against UR... Please help.  (Read 2644 times)

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The_Angel_Of_Truth

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Verses against UR... Please help.
« on: June 02, 2008, 07:59:38 PM »
I looked up Eternal Hell on www.biblegateway.com and came across 3 verses that scared the heck out of me as far as "Is UR true..."

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Then... I looked up Hell...

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

I did not include verses that could have meant Hell as Death (There were about 10 more like that) but "Fire Of Hell" seems to suggest otherwise...

Someone help me please!

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2008, 09:04:56 PM »
Quote
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Do you think you should cut off your real hand?


here is the same verse from the concordant literal version, which BTW if you did a word search using the word Hell, you would come up with ZERO matches in that translation and there are others.   Hell has also been reduce in the number of times it is used in the KJV each time it is revised.

Mt 18:8 Now, if your hand or your foot is snaring you, strike it off and |cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the fire eonian?



Eternal punishment simply is not a proper message in scripture.    This is a very simple answer and it will take much more study than pointing out a handful of scriptures that appear to make a point either way.




« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 09:06:31 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 10:21:34 PM »
Here some good explanations from Thomas Allin's Christ Triumphant:

"THAT YOUR WHOLE BODY SHOULD BE CAST INTO HELL." S. Matt. v. 29,30, and xviii. 8,9.
These passages are so similar that they may be considered together, and may be compared with S. Mark ix. 43-50, where a full comment is given. The "hell" of the text is "Gehenna, " and in ch. xviii. 8. 9, "hellfire" is the fire of Gehenna, and everlasting fire is aeonian fire.

"AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL." S. Matt. xxv. 46.
This text, if fairly translated, seems to require an interpretation quite distinct from that of the popular theology, and opposed to it. (a) "Everlasting" and "eternal" represent aionios, and mean "of or belonging to an age " - aeonian. (b) If a punishment absolutely endless were intended it seems unaccountable that a word should be used which habitually does not mean endless, but the opposite. (c) The word translated punishment means pruning, i.e., corrective punishment, and should be so rendered. (d) So that which is threatened seems the opposite of our popular hell; it is a corrective process, "proper to the age " - or "ages." (e) And of this beneficent purpose there is a hint, often unnoticed, in the term applied to those on the left hand, it is properly "kids" or "kidlings," a diminutive, implying a certain affection. And so for the paschal offering a kid was eligible (Ex. xi. 5) equally with a lamb; and in the Catacombs the Good Shepherd is at times depicted as bearing home on His shoulders A KID, not a lamb, i.e., a GOAT, not a sheep. (f) Nor must we forget that, in Rev. xx. 11, the throne of judgment is WHITE - the sign of peace and amity. But it is said that the same word is applied to the happiness of the saved and to the punishment of the lost; and that, if it does not mean endless in the latter case, the bliss of the redeemed is rendered uncertain. I reply (I.) even were it so, we are not at liberty to mistranslate, but (II.) in fact it is certainly not so. True, the text does assign an aeonian penalty and an aeonian reward, but this leaves perfectly open the whole question of the precise duration of either. For the term aeonian is quite indefinite, it does not touch the question of the limit of time; it simply teaches that both reward and penalty go on to a future age or ages. The question what will happen after this age or ages is not raised in this passage. (g) I have in these comments made two assumptions both very doubtful, and both favorable to the traditional creed.
* It must be noted that the endlessness of the happiness of the Redeemed depends, not on any meaning we assign to aionios. but on its own intrinsic nature, as resulting from union with Him, Who is endless life; and on texts easily to be found elsewhere, e.g., he that does the will of God abides for ever, 1 Jno. ii. 17; Because I live you shall live also, S. Jno. xiv. 19; If a man keep My saying he shall never taste of death. - S. Jno. viii. 51, cf v. 35. Compare Ps. cii. 28.
(I.) I have assumed the reference of aionios to time, which is not capable of proof; for with perfect fairness it may have here that spiritual, ethical meaning it unquestionably at times has in the New Testament; and the meaning then would be, that just and unjust pass into aeonian, i.e., spiritual states of punishment and bliss respectively. (II.) I have assumed the primary reference of this passage to the final Judgment, but that is most improbable; for these words close a continuous discourse extending over chapters xxiv-v. (which our division into chapters obscures.) There is no break throughout. And the question of the disciples, in ch. xxiv., is not about the end of the "world," but of the "age". Thus, if we divest ourselves of traditional impressions, and take Scripture itself as our guide, we see that it is not fair to refer to a distant future, that judgment of which Christ Himself says distinctly, (ch. xxiv. 34,) that ALL THE THINGS He is speaking of should be fulfilled before the passing away of the then generation; and which finds a perfectly natural fulfillment in the terrible calamities, consequent on the fall of Jerusalem, and the end of the (Jewish) age (as these events would be described in Eastern metaphor). And indeed our Lord's words, "all the nations" v. 32, seem to refer to national judgments, and to indicate, in dramatic form, the principle on which judgment falls on nations; certainly increasing reflection makes this reference seem increasingly probable.

"WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY, YOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELLFIRE." S. Matt. v. 22.
The popular interpretation reduces these words to an absurdity. "It is incredible that to call a man a fool should be so much a worse crime than to call him Raca, that, whereas for the one offense men are to be brought before a court of justice, for the other they are to be damned to an everlasting torment." - Salv. Mund. The hellfire of this passage is the fire of "Gehenna."

IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT GEHENNA from the The Bible Hell

   1. Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15: 8; II Kings 17: 10; II Chron. 28: 3; Jer. 7: 31, 32; 19: 2.
   2. Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.
   3. The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says: "What meaning would the Jews who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery and death?"
   4. The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.
   5. Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment as it would have been had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.
   6. No Jewish writer, such as Josephus or Philo, ever uses it as the name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done had such then been its meaning.
   7. No classic Greek author ever alludes to it and therefore it was a Jewish locality, purely.
   8. The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel who wrote, according to various authorities, from the second to the eighth century, A. D.
   9. The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.
  10. Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.
  11. It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?
  12. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
  13. Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned sinners against it were there such a place?
      Dr. Thayer significantly remarks: "The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or Hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning and believed it a part of Christ's teaching that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching,and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations never under any circumstances threaten them with the torments of Gehenna or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment and that this is part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word."
  14. Jesus never uttered it to unbelieving Jews, nor to anybody but his disciples, but twice (Matt. 23: 15-33) during his entire ministry, nor but four times in all. If it were the final abode of unhappy millions, would not his warnings abound with exhortations to avoid it?
  15. Jesus never warned unbelievers against it but once in all his ministry (Matt. 23: 33) and he immediately explained it as about to come in this life.
  16. If Gehenna is the name of Hell then men's bodies are burned there as well as their souls. Matt. 5: 29; 18: 9.
  17. If it be the name of endless torment, then literal fire is the sinner's punishment. Mark 9: 43-48.
  18. Salvation is never said to be from Gehenna.
  19. Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.
  20. Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.
  21. A shameful death or severe punishment in this life was at the time of Christ denominated Gehenna (Schleusner, Canon Farrar and others), and there is no evidence that Gehenna meant anything else at the time of Christ.

I also recommend this short article as a good basis for further studies.




It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

trying

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 02:57:01 AM »
Here some good explanations from Thomas Allin's Christ Triumphant:

"THAT YOUR WHOLE BODY SHOULD BE CAST INTO HELL." S. Matt. v. 29,30, and xviii. 8,9.
These passages are so similar that they may be considered together, and may be compared with S. Mark ix. 43-50, where a full comment is given. The "hell" of the text is "Gehenna, " and in ch. xviii. 8. 9, "hellfire" is the fire of Gehenna, and everlasting fire is aeonian fire.

"AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL." S. Matt. xxv. 46.
This text, if fairly translated, seems to require an interpretation quite distinct from that of the popular theology, and opposed to it. (a) "Everlasting" and "eternal" represent aionios, and mean "of or belonging to an age " - aeonian. (b) If a punishment absolutely endless were intended it seems unaccountable that a word should be used which habitually does not mean endless, but the opposite. (c) The word translated punishment means pruning, i.e., corrective punishment, and should be so rendered. (d) So that which is threatened seems the opposite of our popular hell; it is a corrective process, "proper to the age " - or "ages." (e) And of this beneficent purpose there is a hint, often unnoticed, in the term applied to those on the left hand, it is properly "kids" or "kidlings," a diminutive, implying a certain affection. And so for the paschal offering a kid was eligible (Ex. xi. 5) equally with a lamb; and in the Catacombs the Good Shepherd is at times depicted as bearing home on His shoulders A KID, not a lamb, i.e., a GOAT, not a sheep. (f) Nor must we forget that, in Rev. xx. 11, the throne of judgment is WHITE - the sign of peace and amity. But it is said that the same word is applied to the happiness of the saved and to the punishment of the lost; and that, if it does not mean endless in the latter case, the bliss of the redeemed is rendered uncertain. I reply (I.) even were it so, we are not at liberty to mistranslate, but (II.) in fact it is certainly not so. True, the text does assign an aeonian penalty and an aeonian reward, but this leaves perfectly open the whole question of the precise duration of either. For the term aeonian is quite indefinite, it does not touch the question of the limit of time; it simply teaches that both reward and penalty go on to a future age or ages. The question what will happen after this age or ages is not raised in this passage. (g) I have in these comments made two assumptions both very doubtful, and both favorable to the traditional creed.
* It must be noted that the endlessness of the happiness of the Redeemed depends, not on any meaning we assign to aionios. but on its own intrinsic nature, as resulting from union with Him, Who is endless life; and on texts easily to be found elsewhere, e.g., he that does the will of God abides for ever, 1 Jno. ii. 17; Because I live you shall live also, S. Jno. xiv. 19; If a man keep My saying he shall never taste of death. - S. Jno. viii. 51, cf v. 35. Compare Ps. cii. 28.
(I.) I have assumed the reference of aionios to time, which is not capable of proof; for with perfect fairness it may have here that spiritual, ethical meaning it unquestionably at times has in the New Testament; and the meaning then would be, that just and unjust pass into aeonian, i.e., spiritual states of punishment and bliss respectively. (II.) I have assumed the primary reference of this passage to the final Judgment, but that is most improbable; for these words close a continuous discourse extending over chapters xxiv-v. (which our division into chapters obscures.) There is no break throughout. And the question of the disciples, in ch. xxiv., is not about the end of the "world," but of the "age". Thus, if we divest ourselves of traditional impressions, and take Scripture itself as our guide, we see that it is not fair to refer to a distant future, that judgment of which Christ Himself says distinctly, (ch. xxiv. 34,) that ALL THE THINGS He is speaking of should be fulfilled before the passing away of the then generation; and which finds a perfectly natural fulfillment in the terrible calamities, consequent on the fall of Jerusalem, and the end of the (Jewish) age (as these events would be described in Eastern metaphor). And indeed our Lord's words, "all the nations" v. 32, seem to refer to national judgments, and to indicate, in dramatic form, the principle on which judgment falls on nations; certainly increasing reflection makes this reference seem increasingly probable.

"WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY, YOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELLFIRE." S. Matt. v. 22.
The popular interpretation reduces these words to an absurdity. "It is incredible that to call a man a fool should be so much a worse crime than to call him Raca, that, whereas for the one offense men are to be brought before a court of justice, for the other they are to be damned to an everlasting torment." - Salv. Mund. The hellfire of this passage is the fire of "Gehenna."

IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT GEHENNA from the The Bible Hell

   1. Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15: 8; II Kings 17: 10; II Chron. 28: 3; Jer. 7: 31, 32; 19: 2.
   2. Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.
   3. The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says: "What meaning would the Jews who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery and death?"
   4. The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.
   5. Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment as it would have been had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.
   6. No Jewish writer, such as Josephus or Philo, ever uses it as the name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done had such then been its meaning.
   7. No classic Greek author ever alludes to it and therefore it was a Jewish locality, purely.
   8. The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel who wrote, according to various authorities, from the second to the eighth century, A. D.
   9. The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.
  10. Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.
  11. It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?
  12. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
  13. Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned sinners against it were there such a place?
      Dr. Thayer significantly remarks: "The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or Hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning and believed it a part of Christ's teaching that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching,and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations never under any circumstances threaten them with the torments of Gehenna or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment and that this is part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word."
  14. Jesus never uttered it to unbelieving Jews, nor to anybody but his disciples, but twice (Matt. 23: 15-33) during his entire ministry, nor but four times in all. If it were the final abode of unhappy millions, would not his warnings abound with exhortations to avoid it?
  15. Jesus never warned unbelievers against it but once in all his ministry (Matt. 23: 33) and he immediately explained it as about to come in this life.
  16. If Gehenna is the name of Hell then men's bodies are burned there as well as their souls. Matt. 5: 29; 18: 9.
  17. If it be the name of endless torment, then literal fire is the sinner's punishment. Mark 9: 43-48.
  18. Salvation is never said to be from Gehenna.
  19. Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.
  20. Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.
  21. A shameful death or severe punishment in this life was at the time of Christ denominated Gehenna (Schleusner, Canon Farrar and others), and there is no evidence that Gehenna meant anything else at the time of Christ.

I also recommend this short article as a good basis for further studies.




So does that same word equally apply (it's the same in the greek) to those going into "everlasting life"? Does that mean we only go into life for a while? or an age lasting?

martincisneros

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 03:29:04 AM »
Hi trying,


There's a verse often cited on this point.  I don't have the reference handy.  Hopefully somebody else can find the reference, or would have it handy.  It talks about the everlasting ways of God and the everlasting mountains and hills.  Nevertheless, the everlasting mountains and hills are said to be scattered.  If I remember correctly, Elhanan Winchester cited the passage and commented on it like this:

["He stood and measured the earth; He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, and the perpetual hills did bow.  His ways are everlasting."  In our translation, the mountains and the ways of God are called everlasting, and the hills perpetual, but in the original, the word gnad is applied to the mountains and the word gnolam to the hills, and the ways of God.  But whether we argue from the original or from the translation, it makes no difference.  The question is, are the mountains or the hills eternal in the same sense in which the ways of God are?  If so, the earth must have existed coequal with the ways of Jehovah, and the hills and mountains must never be removed, while his ways endure; and, as his ways can never be destroyed, the absolute eternity not of the earth only, but of it's present form, it's mountains and hills, must be inferred, contrary to Isaiah 40:4; 44:10; Ezek 38:20; 2Peter 3:7,10,11,12; Revelation 16:20; 20:11.  Nay, even in this very text, the ways of God are spoken of as being of a different nature from the mountains which are scattered, and the hills which did bow.  Thus no solid argument can be drawn from the application of the same word to different things, to prove that they shall be equal in their continuance, unless their nature be the same."]


Matthew 25:46 must be understood in the light of the preceding verses that the life of the saints is with regards to their reign in that parable.  And if Christ hands over the control of everything to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28, then of course the reign of the saints -- the aionios zoe -- must come to an end.  But their knowledge of God and of His Son, Jesus Christ will never come to an end.  And the purpose of the reign is to work out the reclaiming of the wicked, so of course and by necessity the punishments of the wicked must come to an end.


"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1Corinthians 15:22

trying

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 05:09:37 AM »
Hi trying,


There's a verse often cited on this point.  I don't have the reference handy.  Hopefully somebody else can find the reference, or would have it handy.  It talks about the everlasting ways of God and the everlasting mountains and hills.  Nevertheless, the everlasting mountains and hills are said to be scattered.  If I remember correctly, Elhanan Winchester cited the passage and commented on it like this:

["He stood and measured the earth; He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, and the perpetual hills did bow.  His ways are everlasting."  In our translation, the mountains and the ways of God are called everlasting, and the hills perpetual, but in the original, the word gnad is applied to the mountains and the word gnolam to the hills, and the ways of God.  But whether we argue from the original or from the translation, it makes no difference.  The question is, are the mountains or the hills eternal in the same sense in which the ways of God are?  If so, the earth must have existed coequal with the ways of Jehovah, and the hills and mountains must never be removed, while his ways endure; and, as his ways can never be destroyed, the absolute eternity not of the earth only, but of it's present form, it's mountains and hills, must be inferred, contrary to Isaiah 40:4; 44:10; Ezek 38:20; 2Peter 3:7,10,11,12; Revelation 16:20; 20:11.  Nay, even in this very text, the ways of God are spoken of as being of a different nature from the mountains which are scattered, and the hills which did bow.  Thus no solid argument can be drawn from the application of the same word to different things, to prove that they shall be equal in their continuance, unless their nature be the same."]


Matthew 25:46 must be understood in the light of the preceding verses that the life of the saints is with regards to their reign in that parable.  And if Christ hands over the control of everything to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28, then of course the reign of the saints -- the aionios zoe -- must come to an end.  But their knowledge of God and of His Son, Jesus Christ will never come to an end.  And the purpose of the reign is to work out the reclaiming of the wicked, so of course and by necessity the punishments of the wicked must come to an end.


"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1Corinthians 15:22

Jesus is telling a truth and illustrating it in a "parable" so we can understand better.
 
The message is simply do good and have everlasting life
do evil and have everlasting punishment.
 
That is the context of the scripture and the interpretation. Trying to read between the lines will
only get you in trouble and error.
 
How much simplier can it be?


martincisneros

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 05:46:00 AM »
Hi trying,

Comparing Scripture with Scripture and being faithful to the Hebrew and Greek isn't reading between the lines.  St. Paul said that in the dispensation of the fullness of times God would gather all things together into one in Christ Jesus of those things in the heavens (where the conflict with Satan is) and of those things in the earth (where the conflict with and between men is concerned) even in Him, according to Ephesians 1:8-10.  It's the KJV that tries to read between the lines in following St. Augustine's fallacy on Matthew 25:46 by suddenly trying to assert that all of the promises shall not be fulfilled.  But all of the promises of both destruction and restoration shall be fulfilled.  Absolutely every sin and disobedience shall receive a just recompense of reward -- not an eternal one.  To those who by patient continuance in doing good are seeking for glory, honor, and immortality, He'll give them aionion life, but to those who are self seeking and do not obey the truth, there shall be indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish of soul upon everyone who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile.  But all of the references to a distinguishing between the righteous and the wicked are prior to God's subduing of their iniquities and gathering all into the chorus of the Redeemed in Revelation 5:13 when every creature in heaven, in earth, underneath the earth and all that in them is shall sing of the glory of God and of the Lamb because Jesus did take away the sin of the world; was the propitiation not only for our sins, but also for those of the world according to 1John 2:1-2; and by that time shall have subdued all things unto Himself by that power with which He was enabled to do so, according to Philippians 3:21.  The one and the many equals the all in Romans chapter 5 and in Isaiah chapter 53.  He died to deliver those who through fear of death were ALL their lifetime subject to bondage according to Hebrews chapter 2.  And according to Ephesians it's those that have died in trespasses that He quickens and makes to sit together with Himself in heavenly places.  The last enemy to be destroyed shall be death, both the first and the second.  Mercy rejoiceth against judgment according to the book of James.  In the end, there is no eternal duality, but only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is above all, through all, and in all, to whom be the glory to the ages.  He committed all to disobedience so that He could then have mercy upon all, according to Romans 11, for from Him through Him, and to Him are all things, according to the same Romans 11.  All of the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, according to Psalm 22.  His Kingdom rules over all, according to Psalm 103 and He redeems men's lives from destruction -- evidently the eonian destruction of Thessalonians, because Psalm 90 says that He turns man to destruction so that afterwards He can say, "Return to Me!"  That is no reading between the lines, but the claiming of the express promises of the Scriptures.  Watering down nothing of all that Jesus Christ has done in taking away the sin of the world, and rejoicing with joy unspeakable and full of glory that Hebrews 6 says that this is His unchangeable counsel, and that He's sworn by Himself that all of the world shall be blessed in Jesus Christ!  All of the world.  Not 3/8ths of it.  Zephaniah's and Isaiah's promises shall be fulfilled that all of the gods shall be robbed of their spoils.  Every knee will bow, and every tongue will exhuberantly thunderously praise and give God ovation (Gr: exomologeo, for English "confess") that Jesus Christ is Lord to God's glory.  God swore through Isaiah that every knee would bow and every tongue would confess that in the Lord they have righteousness and strength.  So, I'm a joyful herald of this glad tidings to all of Creation that they are obliged to repent and believe the Gospel because the Father has set a day when He will judge the world in righteousness through Jesus Christ according to Acts 17, and it's a fearful thing to be condemned as Thomas after Jesus was resurrected because of Thomas's unbelief.  Saul of Tarsus said that he himself was the pattern of those that would be "latter born."  We're the first fruits of God's creatures, and there shall be latter fruits of redemption -- to this all of the law and the prophets attest, that the heavens have received Jesus Christ and retain Him until the times of the restoration of all things (Gr: apokatastasis)!

MARANATHA!

martincisneros

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 07:04:07 AM »
Hi again, trying,

After I left my last post, I got to thinking that one of the cheesiest arguments against what we share here is taking things out of context.  If you honestly care more for the truth of the Scriptures than maintaining relationships with people who believe in eternal separation from the Lord -- if it came down to between them and the Word -- I can take you through [more than] 150 Old Testament passages and [more than] 203 passages in the New Testament that would be either the precise promises regarding the Universal Restoration or passages that establish the usage of the terminology involved.  This is clear Biblical doctrine that has been believed in every age of the Church by a remnant.  I'm not exaggerating on the number of passages.  I have my teaching outline on this right in front of me courtesy of Dr. Harold Lovelace's book that lists all of the Scriptures involved in this understanding of Scripture http://www.haroldlovelace.com if you want a copy of the book.  I say "more than" that number of passages 'cause I'm thinking of specific passages that are related that aren't reprinted or mentioned in the book that I'm honestly encouraging you to get 'cause I grew up in the Assemblies of God denomination as well and I know that some traditions, like eternal separation, die hard and it takes a lot of Scriptures to get washed of that error.  But if you're just looking for an argument, I'm not your man. 

Maybe Craig or Willie would care to engage in an argument if they discerned from the Holy Spirit that anything redemptive would genuinely come of it.  I don't argue any more because I take things way too far way too fast.  I argue to win and I don't think there's enough bandwidth with these boards for how far I'd take it.  I take it too far and I do chase people up trees when I go into a very stupid "prove something" mode.  It took years for God to straighten me out on this, and once persuaded, now this can't be beaten out of me with a baseball bat.  All I care about is being an encourager these days and trying to edify people.  If this really doesn't edify you and you've simply got something to prove, as I said, I'm not your guy to lock horns with.  I live in Fort Worth, Texas and have more than my fair share of seminary students around me to pick on when I get the occasional wild-hair and rude reminder about why arguing wins absolutely nobody to anything worthwhile.  I'm not far from Brite Divinity School, Dallas Theological Seminary, Tyndale Theological Seminary, and from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Jerry Savelle's School of World Evangelism, and quite a few other schools and seminaries as I'm occasionally very rudely reminded of when an occasional brat thinks they'll set me straight.  It's amazing how the Scriptures offend sooooo easily when held up to their true light.  To me, since you're from the Assemblies of God, maybe this will make sense: this is analogous to me as if someone were trying to disprove or villify the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to you.  You've seen too much, been around too much, have read too much, have experienced too much, right?  Same here.  On that and on this.  Anyway, to give you a few more Scriptures on this subject, this is an extract of an article that I wrote a few years ago:

His Love is absolute and God refuses to spend eternity without each of us. Every failure is already atoned for and the days of the existence of sin and separation are numbered. The Blood of Christ is sufficient for the healing of the present and future worlds, and even for the recovery of those of the past. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, and is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and for those of the world. To bring this out clearly, I append the following chain of passages from a long series, clearly and closely linked together, claiming for Christ a saving empire co-extensive with the whole universe. The connection is clearly marked, for each passage suggests or contains, the same central idea; and thus forms a link in a continuous chain. This chain commences at Creation, when all things were created by Christ, Who, therefore, as St. Paul implies, reconciles(in fact, recreates) all things unto God(Colossians 1:15-20). Hence His work is the restitution of all things(Acts 3:21); He is Heir of all things(Hebrews 1:2); in Him all nations are to be blessed(Galatians 3:8); for the Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life(John 17:2); and so all flesh shall see the salvation of God(Luke 3:6). For God, Whose counsel is immutable(Hebrews 6:17), Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging(Luke 6:27-35), will have all men to be saved(ITimothy 2:4); and all to come to repentance(2 Peter 3:9); and has shut all up unto unbelief, in order that he may shew mercy upon all(Romans 11:32); for (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever(Romans 11:36); and He has, therefore, put all things into subjection under Christ's feet(Ephesians 1:22). And so we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ(Ephesians 1:10); and His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life(Romans 5:18). So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands(John 13:3), promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself(John 12:32). For having, as stated, received all things from the Father(John 3:35), all that was given come to Him; and He loses none(John 6:37-39); but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He find it(Luke 15:4); and so makes all things new(Revelation 21:5). And thus He comes in order that all men may believe(John 1:17); that the world, through Him, may be saved(John 3:17); His grace brings salvation to all men(Titus 2:11); for He takes away the sin of the world(John 1:29); gives His flesh for it's life(John 6:51); and, because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance(Romans 9:29), He gives life to the world(John 6:33); is the light of the world(John 8:12); is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world(1John 2:2); is the Savior of all men(1Timothy 4:10); destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only(1John 3:8); abolishes death(2Timothy 1:10); is manifest to put away sin(Hebrews 9:26); and thus subduing all things unto Himself(Philippians 3:21; the context clearly shows this subjection to be conformity to Himself); does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades(1Peter 3:19); of which He holds the keys(Revelation 1:18); for He is the same (Savior) for ever(Hebrews 13:8); thus even the dead are evangelized(1Peter 4:6); Thus all are made alive in Him(1Corinthians 15:22); for Christ finishes, completes His work(John 17:4; 19:30): restores all things(Acts 3:21); and there is no more curse(Revelation 22:2-3); but every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him(Philippians 2:10); for the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption(Romans 8:21); and every creature joins in the song of praise(Revelation 5:13), and so comes the end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then All in All(1Corinthians 15:24-28).

trying

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 07:41:24 PM »
fyi... I'm not looking to argue at all.... just bringin up some of the hurdles I'm trying to get over.. .and for the record, I'm not at all down with the following AG teachings and think their stupid:

1. tongues
2. miraculous healings are somehow a "right" to all whom believe
3. we can somehow "lose" our salvation
4. that God is always angry
5. still not at all convinced that the "gifts" of the spirit are active today

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.. .thanks for your input so far..

Offline studier

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 08:29:20 PM »
Quote
So does that same word equally apply (it's the same in the greek) to those going into "everlasting life"? Does that mean we only go into life for a while? or an age lasting?

Yes, but not how most people think and perhaps what you initially thought by asking this question.

Augustine, an early church theologian, demonstrates a stubborn common fallacy in which he compared an adjective to an adjective. In other words he saw this Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." and concluded that the we must compare the eternals, if eternal in eternal life is perpetual, then so to is the eternal in eternal punishment.  On the surface such bold conclusion does seem completely logically and sense, though it is actually a fallacy. The comparison of adjectives, does not make the adjectives equal.

EXAMPLE 1
If everyone was asked to perform objective A. Those who did not, will go away to a huge loss, those who did to a huge gain.

Is the measurement of the adjective "huge" equal? If the loss was a million dollars, but the gain was a billion dollars, would both the loss and the gain still not be huge?

Let us get even deeper.

EXAMPLE 2
We live in a big solar system in a big universe.

Is the measurement of the adjective "big" equal? Is the "big" in "big solar system" equal to the "big" in "big universe"? Both our solar system and the universe is big, but our solar system is not as big as our universe.

Therefore we recognize that is it not true, an adjective does not equally apply across the board to it's usage to another noun. It is in fact the combination of an adjective & noun which needs to be compared. This is called a 'noun phrase'.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revisiting the examples:

EXAMPLE 1
If everyone was asked to perform objective A. Those who did not, will go away to a huge loss, those who did to a huge gain.

Compare the noun phrase "huge loss" and "huge gain" and find they are not equal.

EXAMPLE 2
We live in a big solar system in a big universe.

Compare the noun phrase "big solar system" and "big universe" and find they are not equal.

CONCLUSION

The conclusion of the matter is the usage of the adjective "eternal" applies only the intrinsic nature of the noun it is describing otherwise known as a noun phrase and not to the "eternal" mentioned elsewhere. It is this concept which is applied to both words. Therefore eternal punishment is not equal to eternal life; the eternal sin is not equal to eternal kingdom; and so on.

Anyone who thinks differently is either deceived or purposely lying.

All this, and I haven't even touched definition of AIONIOS yet.

So speaking of definitions... Let us discuss them:


DEFINITIONS

What are AION and AIONIOS? In case you are not aware, these words are translated (sometimes erroneously) as forever, eternity, and eternal in Scripture.

Here are the definitions:

What is AION?
In Classical, Ancient, Higher and Lower forms of Greek have consistently defined AION as:
(A noun)
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity.
2) period of time, age.
3) the worlds*, universe.*
*This one is contested

Now remember these definition of AION to find out what the definition of AIONIOS is. The adjective AIONIOS is the adjective form of the noun AION. Just like the adjective 'heavenly' is the adjective form of the noun 'heaven' or the adjective 'cicular' is the adjective form of the noun 'circle'. That means knowing the definition of AION, we know the definition of AIONIOS.

AIONIOS
(Adjective)
1) of or in the AION.
2) of, belonging to, or coming from the AION.
3) resembling or befitting AION.

CONCLUSION

AION may or may not mean indefinite time even up to perpetually; or may or may not mean definitive time with absolute beginning and end.

AIONIOS may or may not describe a noun as of, in, belonging to, coming from, resembling or befitting an indefinite time even up to perpetually; or may or may not describe a noun as of, in, belonging to, coming from, resembling or befitting a definitive time with absolute beginning and end.


NOW THE TRANSLATION

Now we know the logic of an adjective, and now know the definition of the adjective, now we can know what exactly is being said in Matthew 25:46 and other places where AIONIOS has been used.

A famous French theologian, at the end of his life wrote: AIONIOS is "An indeterminate duration of which the maximum is fixed by the intrinsic nature of the persons or things. Or they last ever so long - so long as they last!"  -Pétavel-Olliff, Emmanuel, (1836-1910), The Problem of Immortality.

We must conclude that AIONIOS means simply that, the AIONIOS is an adjective which explains a duration or quality dependent upon the noun it describes. In order to find out the duration or the quality of the noun AIONIOS describes, we need to know definition of the noun.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

There are two nouns in this phrase with the adjective AIONIOS preceding them,  they are punishment and life. These words in Greek are, KOLASIS and ZOE.

KOLASIS

What is KOLASIS
(noun)
correction, punishment, penalty

This is the simple one. KOLASIS a punishment for the purpose of correction. It is quite literally a corrective punishment.

How long does it last? It lasts as long as it lasts, until the individual subjected to it, is now corrected. Once correction has been established then KOLASIS ends.

ZOE

What is ZOE
(a noun)
1) life
....a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
....b) every living soul
2) life
....a) of the absolute fullness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature.
....b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.

Since there are other words used in Scripture to describe the state of one possessing vitality, that is called "BIOS" (good, life, living); and "PSUCHE" (breathe, life, vital force which animates the body of animals and men, living being, living soul, emotions) we must conclude that ZOE represents the second definition: The absolute fullness of life, life which is real and genuine with purpose. It is quite literally a life that belongs to God.

How long does that life last? It lasts as long as it lasts and if it is a life that belongs to God, it most certainly will exist far after we have expired and perished due to our mortality.

Craig Nolin
www.studentoftheword.com
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 09:31:40 PM by SOtW »

martincisneros

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 11:17:26 AM »
fyi... I'm not looking to argue at all.... just bringin up some of the hurdles I'm trying to get over.. .

Thanks for clarifying.  It's not always possible to tell where people are coming from so early in a discussion.  And as far as the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, I was speaking more in terms of the dynamic relationship with the Lord that gets kicked up to the next level with that.  I don't know about a lot of Charismatic teachings as well.  I'm hanging on for the provisions just out of meanness where my own life is concerned, like a bulldog 'cause I've got nowhere else to go about somethings that I know without question are the absolute perfect will of God for my life.  I'm not sure that much of anything of a temporal nature is promised to anyone outside of a context of sanctification and discipleship to the Scriptures.  The Universal Restoration on the other hand is rooted too deeply in the language of the covenants of the Scriptures where God's looking for a remnant that'll believe Him for it so that He will Universally pour out His Spirit and bring 'em all in through the types of judgments that He speaks of in Ezekiel where He says that they're going to know that He's the Lord and they're never going to open their mouths again after what He's going to do.  I take that as redemptive language because of the little part about Him saying in effect "they're going to know exactly Who I am."  I've never found a single passage where the knowledge of the Lord was a bad thing or to one's damnation.  That's when you're starting to come out of whatever.  He promises His knowledge to His enemies; rain on the just and the unjust.  Jesus said that BECAUSE God is that way, then we OUGHT TO BE that way.  "Be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect."  And that's in relation to His way with His enemies; with the wicked.  Jesus said to pray for your enemies.  Did He ever tell us to pray something that wasn't the will of God?  And if we know that we're praying the will of God, John's general epistle says that we have the petitions that we've asked of Him.  1Timothy 2 says to pray for all men because Jesus is the corresponding ransom for all which is to be testified in due time.  Ransom's an entirely different idea from atonement and penance on the part of the penitent.  Ransom takes us back to the issue of His value rather than ours.  If He wasn't quite enough to ransom all....for whatever reason....

Offline CHB

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 05:21:11 PM »
Quote from: trying
So does that same word equally apply (it's the same in the greek) to those going into "everlasting life"? Does that mean we only go into life for a while? or an age lasting?

trying,

I don't believe we can inherit everlasting life, our spiritual life after this physical one will have a beginning, everlasting means, without beginning or end.

CHB

autoimmune

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 05:25:19 AM »
Jesus is telling a truth and illustrating it in a "parable" so we can understand better.
 
The message is simply do good and have everlasting life
do evil and have everlasting punishment.
 
That is the context of the scripture and the interpretation. Trying to read between the lines will
only get you in trouble and error.
 
How much simplier can it be?


Okay, trying, let's keep it simple then.  Is Jesus saying we earn our salvation with good works then?

Don't read anything about grace in between the lines. If we do good, we are saved, right?

Mary Ellen

Offline willieH

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Re: Verses against UR... Please help.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 05:59:13 AM »
willieH: Hi Trying... :hithere:

Not arguing with you, just offering a different perspective below...

Jesus is telling a truth and illustrating it in a "parable" so we can understand better.
 
The message is simply do good and have everlasting life
do evil and have everlasting punishment.

How can that BE Trying?  This "observation" would be basing EVERLASTING LIFE upon our deeds (do good / or do evil) and leaves OUT, the Cross... 

The word "EVERLASTING" is an INVALID word in any FINITE language... for if punishment were EVERLASTING, that would mean that it HAD no BEGINNING and has no END...

The FINITE cannot behold the INFINITE, which is what the word EVERLASTING proposes...

This "PUNISHMENT" if it is "EVERLASTING", therefore means that it was, ...ALWAYS going on, ...IS going on, and ...ALWAYS shall be going on... :mnah:  It also makes the "punished" as never really having a chance or opportunity to be other than "punished"... :mnah:
 
Quote
That is the context of the scripture and the interpretation. Trying to read between the lines will
only get you in trouble and error.
 
How much simplier can it be?

In the "CONTEXT" ...who/what are the Sheep and ...who/what are the Goats, Trying?

I believe them to be the 2 Vessels of ...Honor (sheep/spirit) and Dishonor (goats/flesh) found in EACH of us... which are BOTH made BY GOD, of the SAME LUMP (Rom 9:21-23)

You are welcome to believe it to be differently if you choose, ...but GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (Acts 10:34 / Job 34:19)... and SALVATION is NOT dependent upon OUR WORK, it is dependent upon HIS... (Eph 2:8-10)

(1 Cor 15:22)  For as IN ADAM, ...ALL DIE, even IN CHRIST, shall ALL be made ALIVE!

The Work of GOD IN CHRIST is that which is IN the SHEEP (spirit) portion of ourselves made for HONOR and SALVATION!

The work of MAN IN ADAM is that which is IN the GOATS (flesh) portion of ourselves made for DISHONOR and DESTRUCTION!


peacE...

...willieH  :Sparkletooth: